Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

Hey everyone

I hope you are fine. So I have just finished watching the lotr movies and came up with a couple of questions once again, although I wasn't smart enough to write them down , so I just remember three for now. However, I want to use this thread to post a 'basic question' every once in a while, rather than always creating a new thread, since I'm also currently rereading the Silmarillion and will start over with the lotr books after I'm finished with it. Furthermore, I know that many of you have an unbelievably great knowledge about Tolkien and his works, therefore please excuse me if my questions are perhaps nooby or even stupid to a certain extent .

1. Is Gollum actually the personification of the one ring? I mean he's obviously Sam's and Frodo's guide, but it seems to me that he has exactly the same 'characteristics' as the one ring. He shows Frodo that he can help, then again is deceitful and manipulative, etc. (I think you know where I want to go with this).

2. What would have happened if Sam would have taken the ring? I'm asking because I remember Tolkien stating that it is in fact Sam who is the true hero of the lotr and it always seemed to me that the one ring has absolutely no effect on him. So, wouldn't it have been wiser if he would have become the ring bearer?

3. Why didn't they just take the eagles to Mordor? This question has been probably asked thousands of times here on the plaza and many of you are probably facepalming themselves right now but I actually really do want to know

Thank you for answering in advance

____________


Edit: Just remembered another one

4. How come the steward Denethor is actually called Denethor? Isn't Denethor an elvish name? I'm asking because of Denethor the leader of the Nandor who entered Ossiriand where they became the Laiquendi.

1. Is Gollum actually the personification of the one ring?
I think you could make a debate for this question with some remarkably salient facts, but for me the answer is no. I tend to see Gollum as the personification of the deliberate willful suppression of the moral conscience which almost finds redemption, when given a chance with two good companions, but then casts it away in pursuit of pleasure.

2. What would have happened if Sam would have taken the ring?
At which point? If from the beginning, I imagine that the Shire would have been very beautiful, with everyone forced into gardening, until such time as the Dark Lord found the Shire and wrested the Ring from Sam's tiny hands, and turned the Shire into a car park, while forcing Sam to watch the bulldozers.

3. Why didn't they just take the eagles to Mordor?
Because they weren't a 'transport for hire' company?
But seriously, when the journey was decided, they were not IN any great danger that might be viewed from on high to be rescued from - when they got into danger (Caradhras) it was in the middle of some rather inclement weather, ruining any eagle's vision that might have been observing. Next time they were in trouble, they were underground and lost Gandalf. The eagles hung around Gandalf mostly, so after that, chances of getting an eagle taxi were vastly limited.
Also, pertinently, the eagles did not offer to take them.
And, furthermore, presumably were not asked or consulted in the matter at all. I do not recall Gwaihir at the Council of Elrond.

4. How come the steward Denethor is actually called Denethor?
The line of stewards came from the noble houses of Men, and if you look at other names of those men, some others were Elven too - Ecthelion I and II for example. The respect which these noble houses of Men had for the Elves is shown throughout their society, so it is not a wonder that they might adopt Elven names/words into their language.

About the eagles, the purpose of the Fellowship was to sneak into Mordor and destroy the ring. Not going to be so sneaky with a big eagle. Also the Nazgul would be patrolling the area with their fell beasts. Also the eagles have free will. They are not pets. And no one asked them as Liri so rightfully pointed out. Also there is the logistics of it, someone would have to actually be ON an eagle as it can't just be dropped into Mount Doom, it had to go inside to where it was forged.

But my explanation is rather: There wouldn't be much of a story if that was possible ;)

As for the names, grabbed this off of engadget.com: Generally, the Men of Gondor use names from the elvish language of Sindarin. Therefore, their names are often similar to those of elves. This is because the Gondorians have a connection with elves, being the closest descendants of Númenor.

Great idea @Legolas! Although I will say I don't think your 1st question is all that basic. It's an interesting observation about Gollum, and reminds me of a thorough and lengthy topic on the old plaza about the psychology of Gollum and whether he has a split-personality or not. I personally don't believe Gollum is a separate personality, but I never considered that it's a personification of the Ring.

I think Tolkien refers to duality within his characters often. In The Hobbit, there's a lot of references to Bilbo's 2-halves. His Baggins-side (a respectable, comfortable hobbit) and his Took-side (the adventurous hobbit). The battle between his Took-half and Baggins-half is throughout the story. I don't think it's as noticeable in LOTR, but there is that same battle of two-halves in Frodo, whether to follow Bilbo's adventures or not. Perhaps in LOTR it's more noticeable in Gollum. As his own internal battle between Smeagol, who he was before finding the Ring, and Gollum, the name he's given after finding the ring for the guttural sounds he makes.

For some of your other questions, I think 2,3 and 4 are sufficiently answered by the other posts. But just to add something to the eagle question the other posters did not mention. They gave the in-story explanation of why the eagles weren't used to get the Ring into Mordor. I prefer finding the answers within the text because then the story makes more sense to me. But just to give a full picture, Tolkien refers to his eagles as 'a machine.':

The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. - Letter 210

He's referring to the latin phrase, dues ex machina or 'god of the machines.' It's an authorial device used to solve a plot, or move our heroes out of a sticky situation they're unable to resolve themselves. So the author uses gods/angelic beings/supernatural powers to solve the problem. The eagles were creatures of Manwe, and so Tolkien viewed them as a machine that could resolve some minor problems (like Gwaihir rescuing Gandalf a few times) but did not want to overuse them because then it wouldn't have been such a great story.

First off, thank you for your answers , they definitely clarified some things for me. I actually just thought of 2 others:

5.) I just thought of the dialogue Peter Jackson invented in the RotK movie, in which Gandalf talks to Pippin about death. Although the scene is not in the books it made me think about the process elves go through when they die. So, why did the elves leave and not fight evil, if they are able to get their body back?

6.) Why did Manwe help Fingon with the eagles, when Fingon was on the way to save Maedhros? It actually seemed to me like Manwë completly gave up on the Noldor after their oath and him helping Fingon all of a sudden was quite suprising to me.

Once again, thank you in advance and I guess there are probably super simple answer to my questions :)

I regards to the elves, I am pretty sure it was said that their time in Arda had come to an end. No point in fighting for something when it's over :P Now the real question should then be Why was their time over? :P

5. So, why did the elves leave and not fight evil, if they are able to get their body back?
There is something to be said for wanting to live abundantly. From what we see, many Elves did defend their homes, and join a fight when they had reason, but when there is nothing to fight, and perhaps nothing much to live for, life becomes stale. The realms where the Rings held sway may have fought the ennui, but perhaps around the edges of map life grew monotonous ... and in contrast to this was the call of the Valar, the call to the Firstborn, 'come and be sustained with us'. It is not hard to see why they left - what surprises me is that so many stayed.

7. Why was their time over?
I have no answer for this, apart from attrition. So many had gone on to the Undying Lands, and the ones that stayed weren't reproducing with any vigour. It's like hanging around in a clothing store after a sale, when all the good stuff is gone ...

6. Why did Manwe help Fingon with the eagles, when Fingon was on the way to save Maedhros?
It's as simple as an answer to prayer, I think. Fingon was thinking of his friend, and being brave and noble and forgiving, and that is supremely worthy behaviour.

Then Fingon the valiant, son of Fingolfin, resolved to heal the feud that divided the Noldor, [...] Long before, in the bliss of Valinor, before Melkor was unchained, or lies came between them, Fingon had been close in friendship with Maedhros; and [...] the thought of their ancient friendship stung his heart. Therefore he dared a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor: alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth in search of Maedhros; [...] Then in defiance of the Orcs, [...] he took his harp and sang a song of Valinor that the Noldor made of old, before strife was born among the sons of Finwë; and his voice rang in the mournful hollows that had never heard before aught save cries of fear and woe.

Thus Fingon found what he sought. For suddenly above him far and faint his song was taken up, and a voice answering called to him. Maedhros it was that sang amid his torment. But Fingon climbed to the foot of the precipice where his kinsman hung, and then could go no further; and he wept when he saw the cruel device of Morgoth. Maedhros therefore, being in anguish without hope, begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow; and Fingon strung an arrow, and bent his bow. And seeing no better hope he cried to Manwë, saying: 'O King to whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft, and recall some pity for the Noldor in their need!'

His prayer was answered swiftly. For Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves. And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë. Now, even as Fingon bent his bow, there flew down from the high airs Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been, whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms; and staying Fingon's hand he took him up ...

Hi everyone so I just finished the Silmarillion for the first time and I've got a few questions. There will probably follow many more




8. Is there a deeper meaning of 1 Silmaril being placed in the sky as the star of Eärendil, one getting tossed into the water and one ending up in the earth?
(oh and did I get it right that Elwing kept visiting Eärendil when he returned from his journeys? Why doesn't she visit her children then? I mean she can fly ^^)

9. Just out of curiosity; What do you guys really think of Eöl?

10. Why didn't the chain of Islands that was supposed to guard Valinor protect Valinor from the evil Númenóreans?
10.1 It is said that after the falling of hills, 'they now lie imprisoned in caves of the forgotten until the last battle and the day of doom' - So as undead?

11. I didn't really understand the real fate of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. They cut off his hands and then just cast him out into the void, but why would Sauron later make the Númenóreans worship Melkor and not himself? I mean, what is the sense of making them worship somebody who is gone and powerless entirely?

12. During the downfall of Númenór Sauron lost his physical shape as it was swallowed up by the sea. I don't really understand how he was continously able to regain it for example as Annatar or later in Dol Guldur, even after he had lost his ring.
(I have always believed that the loss of the one ring made it impossible for it to take a physical form.)




I'm thankful for any help and comment

Legolas wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:48 am 1. Is Gollum actually the personification of the one ring? [...]

No, he was not. See, that was simple Perhaps the single greatest argument against it is his near-redemption at the top of the Stairs of Cirith Ungol. Gollum was capable of redemption – the Master Ring was not.

Legolas wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:48 am 2. What would have happened if Sam would have taken the ring? [...]

I tend to disagree with Tolkien about Sam – or ... that is ... he describes my reaction to Sam quite well when he says

J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:Some readers he irritates and even infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very ‘trying’. He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity – by which I do not mean a mere ‘down-to-earthiness’ – a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional ‘wisdom’.

Carpenter, Humphrey; Tolkien, Christopher. The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien (letter #246, p. 329). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.
If Samwise (=“Halfwit” – honest! That is what the name means ) had taken the Ring, Sauron would not have fallen. Sam would not have had the strength of will to withstand the Ring, and he would have been quickly and easily overcome by Sauron.

Legolas wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:48 am 3. Why didn't they just take the eagles to Mordor?

It has, rather It's old enough to have made it into the FAQs of Ancient Lore such as Why didn't they just have an Eagle fly the Ring to Mt. Doom?. Basically, it would have made a very poor story. Tolkien was telling a story, not relating true history, and story and narrative power were important to him – far more so than minor details of logic consistency such as this. Casting about for a ‘story-internal’ answer for this is, in my view, rather a mistake. I also think that @Boromir88 explains it quite well.

Legolas wrote: ↑Sun Oct 11, 2020 6:48 am 4. How come the steward Denethor is actually called Denethor? Isn't Denethor an elvish name? I'm asking because of Denethor the leader of the Nandor who entered Ossiriand where they became the Laiquendi.

If I were to add to @Lirimaer's answer, it would be to simply add “family tradition” ...

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:22 pm 5.) I just thought of the dialogue Peter Jackson invented in the RotK movie, in which Gandalf talks to Pippin about death. Although the scene is not in the books it made me think about the process elves go through when they die. So, why did the elves leave and not fight evil, if they are able to get their body back?

Jackson dialogue ... <shudders>

But the Elves do fight evil! Not in the way they had done three thousand years earlier, but still.

The longer answer involves a discussion of the emergence of the time of Men. Except for the last four words, Saruman is completely correct when he says

J.R.R. Tolkien wrote:“The Elder Days are gone. The Middle Days are passing. The Younger Days are beginning. The time of the Elves is over, but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule.

The Lord of the Rings (p. 259). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.
and Gandalf knows this, which is why Saruman could even hope to use it as an argument (and tag on the last four words, which were a violation of their mission).

Another fine example is Galadriel speaking of fighting “the long defeat” ...

Put simply, the days in which the Elves were the primary movers and shakers in Middle-earth had passed: now was the time and the world of Men.

Another part of this is that they never could just get their body back. When Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings, the conception underlying this was that Elves were reborn (don't get me started on the metaphysics of this ... ), and that only after a considerable period of purgatorial. The re-embodiment was a rare exemption at the time (real-world time – while writing The Lord of the Rings), and only much later was the re-embodiment made the norm (about 5 years after the publication of The Lord of the Rings).

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 3:22 pm6.) Why did Manwe help Fingon with the eagles, when Fingon was on the way to save Maedhros?

Not sure that Manwë did ... The Eagles were his agents, but not his mindless slaves, and they had free will and their own agency. And even if Manwë did, in some way, sanction the intervention, it seems reasonable as saving Maedhros was, in any case, the Right Thing to Do.

Lirimaer wrote: ↑Tue Oct 13, 2020 5:23 pm7. Why was their time over?
I have no answer for this, apart from attrition. So many had gone on to the Undying Lands, and the ones that stayed weren't reproducing with any vigour. It's like hanging around in a clothing store after a sale, when all the good stuff is gone ...

The concept of “the long defeat” goes through most of Tolkien's writings. The eucatastrophes of the legendarium are all merely staying the tide for a short while. The Elves are fading – always! And Men are becoming less and less (in terms of spiritual greatness). And the next age will be less than the one before – always! Each age starts with a brief uplift, a eucatastrophe, but the march of history, the progression of the Great Music, is inevitably “the long defeat.” The Eruhíni are doomed to always become less until that final eucatastrophe expressed in the final Chord of Eru Ilúvatar.

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm8. Is there a deeper meaning of 1 Silmaril being placed in the sky as the star of Eärendil, one getting tossed into the water and one ending up in the earth?

I'd say “symbolism” rather than “deeper meaning” – just as for the Three Rings being associated with water, fire and air (is the One Ring, the Ring of Earth, then?). Tolkien does use symbolism also without necessarily having a deeper meaning.

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm(oh and did I get it right that Elwing kept visiting Eärendil when he returned from his journeys? Why doesn't she visit her children then? I mean she can fly ^^)

Eh? Because of Aman not being Middle-earth, presumably.

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm9. Just out of curiosity; What do you guys really think of Eöl?

Dark Elf ... bit of a loner, bit of a git, but so was his wife. Wonderful craftsman, though.

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm10. Why didn't the chain of Islands that was supposed to guard Valinor protect Valinor from the evil Númenóreans?

The rules changed after the War of Wrath.

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm10.1 It is said that after the falling of hills, 'they now lie imprisoned in caves of the forgotten until the last battle and the day of doom' - So as undead?

Possibly. If we assume that they aren't dead, then they're undead. They might also be sleeping, or something – this is Ilúvatar, we're talking about, so anything goes

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm11. I didn't really understand the real fate of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. [...]

There's a lot more to say about that than what is included in the published Silmarillion. Googling for “the Second Prophecy of Mandos” may help ... otherwise I'll get back to this later, when I've got some more time (sorry – it's getting late, and there's work tomorrow ... )

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm12. During the downfall of Númenór Sauron lost his physical shape as it was swallowed up by the sea. I don't really understand how he was continously able to regain it for example as Annatar or later in Dol Guldur, even after he had lost his ring.
(I have always believed that the loss of the one ring made it impossible for it to take a physical form.)

The Master Ring possibly made it easier for him, but it was not essential. According to one of Tolkien's letters, Sauron brought the Master Ring to Númenor, and his spirit brought it back. Thus it was not until the Third Age that he re-embodied without being in possession of the One Ring (unless we count Tolkien statement in Ósanwe-kenta that it also happened in the First Age when Lúthien and Huan defeated him). It is unclear when, exactly, in the Third Age Sauron finished taking shape (the same shape/body from which Isildur had cut the finger with the Master Ring), but at the time of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings he is fully embodied.

I think @Troelsfo has this covered, but just to elaborate on a couple of these points...

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm10. Why didn't the chain of Islands that was supposed to guard Valinor protect Valinor from the evil Númenóreans?

The Enchanted Isles were part of the system of defenses set up during the Hiding of Valinor, which occurred after the Flight of the Noldor. At the end of the First Age—with Morgoth defeated and most of the Noldorin Exiles invited to return to Valinor—these defenses were considerably lessened. Previously, they prevented even Elves with no ill intent from reaching the Undying Lands, but afterwards the Eldar of Middle-earth were able to sail to Valinor unimpeded. The Eldar of Eressëa also sailed to and from Númenor on a regular basis for most of the latter island's history.

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm10.1 It is said that after the falling of hills, 'they now lie imprisoned in caves of the forgotten until the last battle and the day of doom' - So as undead?

I am personally inclined to interpret the legend of Ar-Pharazôn and his men in the Caves of the Forgotten as just that: a Númenórean legend, not something that's literally true. We have to be careful when making such claims about any part of the legendarium, but Tolkien himself had a habit of casting doubt on the "historical" veracity of some of the more implausible elements in the tales. The Akallabêth, in Tolkien's latest conception, was ostensibly written in-universe by Númenóreans (in one account, by Elendil himself) after the Downfall. While Elendil had more access to the Undying Lands than most, thanks to the Elostirion-stone (the palantír specifically keyed to look to the original West), he, or whoever wrote the Akallabêth, was presumably not working with first-hand witness accounts of Ar-Pharazôn's invasion. More importantly, it's driven home again and again that Men can not escape the fate of death. While there are a few qualifiers to this statement, having too many exceptions cheapens the whole concept. I think it's more likely that this is a variation of the classic "king asleep in the mountain" and "the sleeping army" folklore motifs, with the twist that this particular legend features a villainous king rather than a hero.

Legolas wrote: ↑Tue Mar 23, 2021 1:40 pm11. I didn't really understand the real fate of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. They cut off his hands and then just cast him out into the void, but why would Sauron later make the Númenóreans worship Melkor and not himself? I mean, what is the sense of making them worship somebody who is gone and powerless entirely?

I believe Tolkien's most detailed account of Morgoth's fate is in Text VII (iii) of "Myths Transformed", which can be found in volume X of The History of Middle-earth. In this version, Morgoth had become permanently trapped in a single physical form (something also stated in the 1977 Silmarillion, chapter 8), and in this form "[h]e was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates" (emphasis in the original). Tolkien goes on to specify that (in this conception) being thrust into the Void means "he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ëa [the universe] altogether". Regarding Sauron in Númenor, Tolkien comments earlier in Text VII that "Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself [as a deity]; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise from hostage to high priest." That Melkor is unable to influence events in Arda is beside the point; Sauron was using the Melkorist cult to elevate his own power, not genuinely trying to acquire divine favor for the Númenóreans.

Welcome back Legolas. The Silmarillion is next up on the books I want to read again this year, I hope you're enjoying it. It's been a long time since I've read it so I think I'll only be able to help out with a couple. But I'm sure with @Troelsfo and others to chime in, we'll be able to make a group effort of it.

11. I didn't really understand the real fate of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. They cut off his hands and then just cast him out into the void, but why would Sauron later make the Númenóreans worship Melkor and not himself? I mean, what is the sense of making them worship somebody who is gone and powerless entirely?

To me, Sauron has always seemed the practical and logical type of villain. Of course he made blunders and had a huge blind spot in thinking the ring couldn't be destroyed. I would argue he was right that no one had the will to destroy the Ring on their own, but Sauron's mistake was failing to imagine that others would seek and attempt to have it destroyed. Anyway, that's a bit of a digression, but I've thought of Sauron as a pragmatic and rather patient villain, which I appreciated about his character.

Melkor, Tolkien says, declined into nihilism. Failing in all his designs and plans, he declined into a state where he rejected creation and life. He basically wanted to trash the place. Sauron, on the other hand, never fell into nihilism. He also wasn't an atheist, but he preached it (Melkor worship) to the Numenoreans because it weakened resistance.

All Quotes from Home X, Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed:

Sauron was not a ’sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda)...

He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)


Sauron never stopped believing in the "Gods" or their powers, he just thought they didn't care about Middle-earth anymore so he could make it his own personal play pen. Orginally, Sauron was guided by the principles of order and co-ordination. What he hated was free will. His designs in creating the rings of power, were to dominate free will and make a world of slaves. If you think about it, he wasn't wasteful with his resources. He attempted to make a truce with the dwarves of Erebor, when they rejected his messengers, that's when he sent a force to attack them. What's the point of having slaves to dominate and make the world in your own vision if you destroy everything as Melkor attempted?

12. During the downfall of Númenór Sauron lost his physical shape as it was swallowed up by the sea. I don't really understand how he was continously able to regain it for example as Annatar or later in Dol Guldur, even after he had lost his ring.
(I have always believed that the loss of the one ring made it impossible for it to take a physical form.)

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. - Letter 131

So, Sauron didn't need the Ring to take a physical form. He had the power to take a physical form (like all ainur) prior to creating the Ring. Losing the Ring didn't effect his power to take a physical form, it just effected his ability to take a "fair" form again.

After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination) - Letter 200

This is what I love about Tolkien's letters is it sheds light on many topics, but I understand why they can cause a bit of confusion. They are, in large part, an author's thoughts after writing the story, so they should be viewed through those lenses. I think though they provide fascinating insights that get me thinking about the story differently. In theory, from Letter 200, they didn't have to destroy the Ring to stop Sauron from re-building. After all, Gollum says Sauron only has 9 fingers so after the battle of the Last Alliance, Sauron was unable to rebuild a finger:

"Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough" - The Black Gate is Closed

The 2nd part of Gollum's quote is what's important though, as far as a theory of defeating Sauron without destroying the Ring...he only has "four on the black hand, but they are enough."

Edit: simul with Eldy.

@Eldy Dunami and @Boromir88, thank you both for providing a bit more context on the last questions – I admit that my answers there got rather too short for comfort, but it was getting late, and I had to be ready for (yet another) long day at work.

Unfortunately, it won't be today either, but I hope to come back over the weekend with a discussion of the Second Prophecy of Mandos and how this crucial concept changed over the years .... I understand and appreciate Christopher Tolkien's difficulties when compiling the published Silmarillion, and I do not know (does anyone know?) how much of this history he had uncovered when he compiling that book, but with the clarity of hindsight, his treatment of the end of days is one of the parts that I could have wished that he had treated differently