LOTR Read-Along Book I

[Mojo]

Greetings Everyone! With the return of the New Plaza and the ongoing global limitations on activities due to the virus pandemic, this seemed like an ideal time to get folks together for a collaborative Read-Along. The idea of the Read-Along is to read 2-3 chapters per week and discuss them here. The plan is to start discussions on Monday of each week (starting next week) on a few chapters, so ideally people will have read them prior to Monday. That said, if you get started late, you can always catch up and join in the fun! I'm posting this now, a week in advance of the Read-Along starting, so that people can start preparing (i.e. finishing up any books they're currently reading). If you are in the US and have a long holiday weekend for the Fourth of July, this might be a good time to start reading as well!

In the interest of not spamming the Lore Forums with too many threads, I think I will start a new thread for each of the six "Books" contained within LOTR.

The Schedule for Book I is:
July 1(ish) - Start Reading!
July 6: A Long-Expected Party, The Shadow of the Past
July 13: Three is Company, A Short Cut to Mushrooms, A Conspiracy Unmasked
July 20: The Old Forest, In the House of Tom Bombadil, Fog on the Barrow-downs
July 27: At the Sign of the Prancing Pony, Strider
August 3: A Knife in the Dark, Flight to the Ford

Open to any and all, by any medium you like (regular book, audio book, etc). Also, anyone willing to help out by throwing out discussion topics or ideas can certainly do so. I envision this more as a "community read-through" and collaborative discussion rather than "Mojo tells you what to think about the books."

[Almarëa Mordollwen]

Yay! Thanks for doing all the organization for this, @Mojo - looking forward to it. :smiley8:

[Mojo]

Oh, I should also note - while I tried to group chapters together by "theme" (i.e. the Tom Bombadil chapters all together), I did not pay attention to page counts. So some weeks may have a lot more reading than other weeks. This will come into play more with Book II as the Council of Elrond chapter is quite lengthy.

Overall, the schedule as I have it will wrap up at the end of this calendar year (per the Gregorian Calendar, not using the Shire Reckoning of King's Reckoning).

[Androthelm]

@Mojo if you're not scheduling RL plans by the Shire Reckoning, are you really a fanatic?

I can't wait!

[Taethowen]

So excited!!!! It's been honestly probably 10 years since I read the books, and I'm sure I'll find *lots* of things to discuss as we go along, lol

[Lirimaer]

Yes, I'm up for this. Gotta find a book, but that'll be no bother! I'm quite looking forward to it.

[Mojo]

If people don't have copies of the books handy, there are some uploads to YouTube (either in one video or multiple) that have audiobook recordings. Just make sure you get an unabridged version.

[KingODuckingham]

I'm gonna have to cheat a bit because I was/am already mid-read through. Gandalf just convinced Theoden to come out into the light in my current read. I might put that on hold, do a light pass as the time goes to refresh myself on the tiny details, and otherwise participate, then pick up for serious when everyone catches up to me. It's a great idea to do together!

[Boromir88]

Great @Mojo . Thank you for organizing a reading. Good timing and I'll definitely be able to join.

[Lailyn]

Thanks for organizing this, @Mojo! Great idea. I am so excited I read the prologue this morning! I think its going to be very relaxing to re-read and even more fun to discuss with you all. I used to re-read every summer holiday so its a nice memory to relive.

[Marceline]

I'm gonna do my best to keep up. Put it this way: the fewer bugs you all find, the more time I'll have to read. :smiley10:

jk please don't stop telling us when there are bugs

[Baphởmet]

I can't wait to get started on this. It's been close to 10 years since I really sat down and read Lord of the Rings. To be able to do so and have genuine discussion, debate, and lit theorying (it's a word trust me) brings my black heart joy.

[Flame Fried Ent]

Yay! I just finished reading it earlier in the month but I don’t mind rereading it. Never really done a read along before!

[Gwai]

Can't wait! It's been probably around 4-5 years since I read them! I'm excited, I wonder if I can get the hobbit read before we start!

[Dwim]

This sounds great! I will try and keep up, although I am currently in the middle of a Silmarillion re-read so I'm not sure. But what's the harm in reading two Tolkien books at once?

[Nerwen Nuke-queen]

Very much looking forward to this and having some discussion in smaller chunks too.

[Burnt Toast]

Ah, thanks for making this thread! I started re-reading a bit ago, but I will join in with this group; I've never done a group read along before!

[Moriel]

Hooray! What a great excuse to re-read!! I'm in :smiley8: It's been at least a few years since I read the LotR itself (spend a lot of time in the Silmarillion/HoME) and I'm looking forward to digging into it again!

[Androthelm]

@Dwim where in your Silmarillion reread are you? I just finished one a little while ago.

[Dwim]

@Androthelm, not too far in yet, Chapter 5 I believe. Started a week ago. I'm a slow reader these days. It's been so long since I read it last though, it feels magical rediscovering all the details again.

[Mojo]

Hi all! This is intended to be a relatively relaxed and non-stressful read-through, but today is the (recommended) day to start reading the first few chapters in preparation for the discussion starting next week. Feel free to read at your own pace though, you don't have to keep to my schedule.

[Androthelm]

@Dwim that was my experience as well. There's so much that has been in the back of my brain for so many years that... actually reading it again after all this time is very special.
@Mojo thanks for the heads up! So excited (so excited that I may have dived back in a little early, in fact).

[Nerwen Nuke-queen]

Hi everyone - just to say if you are an audio book fan, you can listen to LotR for free on Google Podcasts. It is under booksforyou Lord of the Rings Audiobook.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

I'm about halfway through Chapter 2. I got a good amount listened to while on a walk this evening. Really looking forward to reading and discussing with you all. It's going to be a great time.

[Lychfield Ghoul]

I just finished 'A Long-Expected Party' and I cannot believe it took me 18 years to realise that jools are supposed to be jewels... *hides away in shame*

[Lailyn]

@Balfur. I'm sure you're not the only one.

I finished Chapter 1 and I think my favourite thing so far is that I forgot how funny and clever Bilbo is! Especially the "gifts" left in his will for his relatives and acquaintances.

[Azdiur]

This is my first time reading it where I'm forced to read in discrete chunks instead of just knocking it out in a single evening, and it's definitely helping me see things in a new way, which is neat.

Reading just the chunk where Gandalf gets to Bilbo to leave the ring behind really draws your attention to just how many different moods Bilbo runs through, and how many ways he almost fails to give it up.

[Mojo]

Hi all! Glad to see the discussion has started! I was out of commission most of the weekend with our daughter being born, but I'm starting to get back into the swing of things now. I did manage to get the first two chapters read and I'll post some of my personal thoughts tomorrow when I get some time to organize them.

I'll start with this thought - A Long-Expected Party in many ways picks up the same tone as the Hobbit. Somewhat of a happy-go-lucky tale with some humor and a sense of adventure but only hints at the deeper and darker undertones of what is happening in the broader world. In some respect, I think this serves as kind of a "transition" chapter from Bilbo's adventures including the finding of the Ring to him passing the Ring to Frodo and (as we see in Chapter Two), Frodo's vastly different experience with the One Ring.

[Mojo]

Another thing worth discussing, is the ever-confusing passage in Bilbo's speech where he tells the assembled gathering of 144 Hobbits, "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

I found this graphic very helpful:


This is definitely a lot of math to try and figure out, especially after a night of eating and drinking.

I think a better way of saying it so that the Hobbits could understand him would have been something like "I wish I knew half of you better, and many of you deserve to be liked a lot more than you are. All except the Sackville-Bagginses, who are really terrible Hobbits." (Obviously being a good-mannered Hobbit, Bilbo never would have said the last part.)

[Boromir88]

Congratulations @Mojo ! Newborns are so exciting, granted I say that from an uncle's POV.

A Long Expected Party Part 1
When you mentioned about having a reading group started, I was in the midst of reading The Hobbit. So, I finished that on Thursday, and went right into Friday starting A Long-Expected Party. This is the first time (at least that I can remember) I started Lord of the Rings basically immediately after The Hobbit, which kind of gave me a different perspective.

Generally I was always aware that Tolkien was taking us all back to The Shire, and connecting to the previous story. Bilbo's back. Gandalf's back and this time with fireworks. There's another party. But, I never realized all the other fun easter eggs in A Long-Expected Party. There's the toys with the mark from Dale, which means, oh yay! the Dale toy-market is up and thriving again. The easter egg with Bilbo's cloak is just wonderful:

...and Bilbo was wearing a dark-green hood (a little weather-stained) and a dark-green cloak borrowed from Dwalin. They were too large for him, and he looked rather comic. (The Hobbit: Roast Mutton)

A Long Expected Party:
From a locked drawer, smelling of moth-balls, he took out an old cloak and hood. They had been locked up as if they were very precious, but they were so patched and weatherstained that their original colour could hardly be guessed: it might have been dark green. They were rather too large for him.

This thing, so simple, made me smile. Because it's not Tolkien writing "Bilbo grabbed his old cloak Dwalin lent him." It's revealed like an easter egg for people who read the previous story... "it might have been dark green. They were rather too large for him"

There's another party, this one has been long-expected, but again Bilbo goes off unexpectedly. All this time it's set up to be Bilbo's chapter, and then suddenly he's gone, but wait...what's going on? We DON'T follow him out Bag End this time?

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

I'm not certain if that chart makes that particular sentence more or less confusing, but that's for sharing it nonetheless.

I'll just start out by saying I'm so happy to be re-reading this delightful series after so many years. It is interesting how light-hearted the first chapter of FOTR is and it does make for a nice tie-in to the Hobbit. If I recall correctly, Tolkien never meant for Hobbit to have a sequel, so it's really curious how LOTR evolved into the story it is.

Having read Hobbit about a month ago, it was still fresh in my mind like you say @Boromir88. I loved all the little easter eggs like you mentioned, not to mention all the fun descriptions of the items for giving away. It goes to show just how developed all these characters we never even meet are.

[KingODuckingham]

- A Long-Expected Party in many ways picks up the same tone as the Hobbit. Somewhat of a happy-go-lucky tale with some humor and a sense of adventure but only hints at the deeper and darker undertones of what is happening in the broader world. In some respect, I think this serves as kind of a "transition" chapter from Bilbo's adventures including the finding of the Ring to him passing the Ring to Frodo and (as we see in Chapter Two), Frodo's vastly different experience with the One Ring.

I agree with this (of course), and I love so much the layers to the undertones. The way the Shire is fleshed out and non-monolithic in these chapters and in the prologue before it cleverly create a hobbit-like perspective for us as we read. For Frodo and the Brandybucks to seem like distant citizens, or for Bilbo to seem so queer even to his neighbors for having gone on a very occasional trip, for the Tooks minor "adventures" setting them apart from regular hobbits, for all these things to be true gives us a reference point that will soon be blown to smithereens by what happens in the course of the entire book. Indeed, if we have read the Hobbit, even those fantastic stories will pale in comparison, eventually. That the author takes the time to flesh all this out without beating us over the head with it OR devolving into mere tedium is, I think, an incredible feat.

[Galadrihell]

Interestingly, you never see Frodo take ownership of the Ring. He takes the envelope, but doesn’t open it; later on, when dealing with the Sackville-Bagginses, he is fidgeting with something in his pocket (obviously the Ring) and confessed to Gandalf he longs to disappear. This is just the afternoon after the Party, so at some point, presumably alone, Frodo opens the envelope with the Ring; and already by the next day he is carrying it everywhere close to him in his pocket.

[Mojo]

Great points all around! I do like the little glimpses we get into Hobbit life even outside the main storyline. Tolkien gives us two scenes in The Ivy Bush and The Green Dragon with "regular" Hobbits discussing matters of the Shire and the world at large. In Chapter 2, we get our hint at a possible locale of the Entwives, if Hal Gamgee's story of the Northfarthing is to be believed.

We also get some glimpses into the Gaffer's "Good plain Hobbit sense" that Sam later references throughout the story.

Also, as @KingODuckingham pointed out, it is interesting to see how even within The Shire there are divisions in how Hobbits of different families or areas are thought of. The Hobbiton folk think the Bucklanders are odd while those in Buckland think the same of those from Hobbiton. In fact, Lobelia even uses this as an insult towards Frodo:

'You'll live to regret it, young fellow! Why didn't you go too? You don't belong here; you're no Baggins – you – you're a Brandybuck!'

'Did you hear that, Merry? That was an insult, if you like,' said Frodo as he shut the door on her.

'It was a compliment,' said Merry Brandybuck, 'and so, of course, not true.'

[Boromir88]

A Long Expected Party Part II

Mojo: Great points all around! I do like the little glimpses we get into Hobbit life even outside the main storyline. Tolkien gives us two scenes in The Ivy Bush and The Green Dragon with "regular" Hobbits discussing matters of the Shire and the world at large.

Another thing that was interesting to me. It was pretty cool how Tolkien revealed connections which reminded us of his previous story, but also how he reveals new information about The Shire and hobbits. He doesn't use long exposition about Bilbo's wealth and weird behavior, or to simply write "Frodo's parents died in a boating accident." He uses the inn-setting and the gossip that happens in the inn between patrons.

And often that gossip, has some truth, but also you have to take it with a grain of salt. We get either...

1. Drogo's weight sank the boat (Old Noakes)
2. Primula pushed him over and Drogo took her with him (Sandyman)
3. Boats are tricky and dangerous enough on their own, don't need to make up stories about pushing and pulling (Gaffer)

Same with Bilbo's legendary wealth, which leads to several hobbits searching Bag End for tunnels of hidden jools.

We are led to believe the Gaffer's version since Sam and him have been inside Bag End and tended Bag End's gardens for generations. Which, the Gaffer says Bilbo's always been pretty upfront with his wealth, more so than probably most wealthy people. To have information presented through the eyes of others, through 'inn gossip', adds a lot of realism to the tale. Because our real world is always full of conspiracy theories and gossip, and folks with plain common sense like the Gaffer, tend to get pushed to the side from others inventing the juicier tales.

[Lirimaer]

Chapter 1:

One thing I noted particularly, after wondering exactly how long it was since I'd read the book, was how much I'd subsumed from the movie into canon ... it was interesting to me, even the little things, like Gandalf sending the children away unsatisfied and longing for fireworks, to the masterful way Tolkien makes us wait for the damn party with growing impatience. But it's like all books that you read again after a long time - like coming home, reacquainted with an old friend ...

"A decent respectable hobbit was Mr. Drogo Baggins; there was never much to tell of him, till he was drownded."
"‘Drownded?" said several voices. They had heard this and other darker rumours before, of course; but hobbits have a passion for family history, and they were ready to hear it again.

Me too. I am indeed ready to hear this tale again. Yay for the renewal of the plaza.

Mr. Bilbo has learned him his letters – meaning no harm, mark you, and I hope no harm will come of it.

The Gaffer here is a delight. I like the way he is for a moment our everyman, on the side of the angels defending Bilbo and then in the same breath, worrying about the effects of reading on his poor son. Poor Sam, he might start having Ideas and then where will we be? It gives us a good idea of the general education of the Hobbits at large, while the rest of his speech puts a gulf between Bilbo, the rich eccentric and the rest of the Hobbits, which obviously it was designed to do. The whole conversation goes a large way to explaining why later Frodo suggests that the folk of Hobbiton could do with a good scare/shake-up.

But despite this, I am also finding that I like the foolish Hobbits more now that I am older and have become more Hobbit-like. I like gardening and 'filling up the corners' and going for a natter at the pub. I'm also a little more forgiving of simple folk than I was as a younger person. Perhaps realising I am a little foolish makes a difference.

He stepped down and vanished. There was a blinding flash of light, and the guests all blinked. When they opened their eyes Bilbo was nowhere to be seen.

I still think it is a shame Gandalf didn't do this in the film. It was such a simple thing to do, I don't really understand why it was changed so that Gandalf was surprised by the action.

Gandalf’s eyes flashed. ‘It will be my turn to get angry soon,’ he said. ‘If you say that again, I shall. Then you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.’ He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room. Bilbo backed away to the wall, breathing hard, his hand clutching at his pocket. They stood for a while facing one another, and the air of the room tingled. Gandalf’s eyes remained bent on the hobbit. Slowly his hands relaxed, and he began to tremble.
‘I don’t know what has come over you, Gandalf,’ he said. ‘You have never been like this before.'

What I enjoy about this particularly is that Bilbo comes to himself without Gandalf backing down. It is Bilbo who realises that Gandalf is offended and makes the overture of tentative peace by trusting his friend and asking, in the next instance, the question that bothered him most - which Gandalf lies to him in answer about. (Lies I say. You see Bilbo says, I am not a thief, and Gandalf says, I have never called you one. No, but he called him a BURGLAR!) responds to in the most calm and reassuring way. The Gandalf of the book doesn't make Bilbo cower in fear with his power, and nor does he release his power in order to calm Bilbo. The whole interaction speaks of long relationship built on trust, and you can see the Maia in Gandalf willing his wilful charge to relinquish the thing by his own volition. I love that Gandalf helps him (by picking up the envelope and placing it in the agreed place) when Bilbo was unable to part with it himself. I think that that moment where Bilbo has a flash of rage speaks volumes about the hold the Ring has on its bearers, which the movie skips over by having Bilbo drop it willingly on the floor and leave it there. No amount of ominous sound effects and magnetic no-bounce have the same gravitas. The relief is palpable, though, and even TH readers will be nervously watching the Ring after this chapter, because the magic deus ex-machina of There and Back Again has turned into something altogether more sinister. The warning to Frodo is also delightfully vague, but perfectly in-keeping with Gandalf's growing suspicions. In the film Gandalf's adjurement to 'Keep it secret, keep it safe' means Frodo throws the whole envelope in a box until he returns (a heartbeat later) ... it was nice to see that Frodo was carrying it, and tempted to wear it, only hours after taking possession.

I had forgotten, too, that there were Dwarves staying with Bilbo, and they went off with him ... I feel like it's new information, to be honest, like I'd never really registered that. I know I did wonder why Gandalf let a 111 year old Hobbit go off into unsafe country by himself in the middle of the night, but I'd never taken that thought any further! I am delighted that they were there to look after his ... him.

Bilbo's departure leaves some uncomfortable meetings for Frodo, which I had totally forgotten ... not only does he have to deal with the fallout of the disappearance, he also has to organise the clean-up and be the disseminator of Bilbo's rude 'joke' gifts. I think, in many cases, that the wit will have gone over the recipients' heads, but I feel like Frodo was a bit embarrassed by the whole thing. It doesn't say it explicitly, but him being 'tired and worried' speak to me. (I have to say that: For the collection of HUGO BRACEGIRDLE, from a con-tributor; on an (empty) book-case, had me howling ... I know Bilbo's pain here!)

I had also forgotten that the hobbits at large tried to clear Bag End, and they had to stop folk digging holes in the walls. Amusing.

I swear I shall not compare every moment to the film as we go on ... *eyes self sternly*

[Mojo]

Very good and insightful points! And since my hope for this is that it is a community discussion and not "Mojo tells you what to think about the books" I am totally fine with drawing comparisons/contrasts with the PJ films. I think it adds a nice layer to the discussion on how the story was translated to a different medium.

So here's something that was bouncing around my head - obviously Gandalf is a Maia with exceptional abilities. But I wonder if there is any connection (either intentional or otherwise) between his skill with fireworks and his possession of Narya the Elven Ring of Fire? (Feel free to tell me "no, that's ridiculous", I'm just throwing this out for consideration/discussion purposes)

[Boromir88]

@Mojo So here's something that was bouncing around my head - obviously Gandalf is a Maia with exceptional abilities. But I wonder if there is any connection (either intentional or otherwise) between his skill with fireworks and his possession of Narya the Elven Ring of Fire? (Feel free to tell me "no, that's ridiculous", I'm just throwing this out for consideration/discussion purposes)

I wouldn't go so far to say "no, that's ridiculous" It's not just with fireworks, Gandalf is highly skilled in working with fire as seen many times.

I guess the question comes down to, in the same way as the One Ring...is it the ring or the bearer? As we see in The Shadow of the Past, Frodo is unable to discard the Ring. Is it because that's a feeling that comes from within Frodo, or is the ring exerting an external force to make Frodo not want to discard it? Is Gandalf's skill with fire an ability he's possessed internally and developed, or does Narya in some way enhance his skill with fire and creating excellent fireworks?

I do believe the connection is intentional. Cirdan gave the Ring to Gandalf when he arrived in Middle-earth saying:

...Cirdan later surrended his to Mithrandir. For Cirdan saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth, and he welcomed Mithrandir at the Grey Havens, knowing whence he came and whither he would return.

'Take this ring, Master,' he said 'for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.' Appendix B: Tale of Years

In the defense of Gondor, we see the effect of Narya on the soldiers, as it was said wherever Gandalf went, their spirits were immediately lifted. Perhaps Cirdan knew (or perceived) Gandalf's abilities and therefor knew he was the best fit to be the bearer of Narya. For Cirdan's "heart is with the Sea" and Gandalf would use the ring to "rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."

It is also interesting, and possible that maybe Gandalf only developed this skill with fire because he was given Narya? Not only a representation of 'spiritual fire' to lift and rekindle hearts, but being a more physical representation in creating great fireworks and burning wolves' noses. I think the connection is intentional though, and Cirdan gave Narya to the most appropriate person.

[Lailyn]

I haven't a ton of time to formulate as many thoughts as some of you and I accidentally kept reading straight from chapter 2 to 3, so obviously I got pulled in...how hasty of me! Everyone has very interesting thoughts and impressions so far! My overall impressions of setting the stage in Chapters 1 and 2...

I forgot how clever and sort of cynical Bilbo is. Does leaving the Shire cause him to become a tad cynical or was he always like that? Is it a natural progression of aging or is it the Ring exerting influence on him? (I can't totally remember his attitudes toward his relatives in particular in the Hobbit (been ages since I read it), but I do feel like he was a lot more open and carefree then.)

As someone trying to write their own fantasy novel, how to introduce concepts and history of the world is something I think about a lot so I'm paying more attention to how its done. I like how a lot of the bigger Middle-earth history is presented here with little tidbits of information in conversations between Frodo and Gandalf as well as the folklore and rumors from the other hobbits as part of "pub-talk". Never at any point does Gandalf really sit Frodo down and just give him a lecture.

I like how slowly everything develops very Shire-like with lots of careful planning going into decisions including Bilbo's disappearance at his party and then later, Frodo's plans to leave the Shire (which is technically Chapter 3, sorry). This is so unlike the movie, where it seems a lot of decisions were made in the moment and due to immediate need. Frodo doesn't seem to have any prior knowledge of Bilbo's disappearance and seems surprised when it happens in the film and he takes off from the Shire quite quickly after Gandalf tells him Sauron knows the name Baggins. Obviously these choices work better for a film, but I prefer the slower-paced version of the book.

We are already seeing Frodo's innocence here in the beginning. This is especially highlighted when he says: "I wish it need not have happened in my time." I think this is an important part of his personality and decision-making when he finally does decide to take the Ring out of the Shire when he understands it must happen and again later when he chooses to take it all the way to Mordor to destroy. Is it his innocence, or even ignorance, that partially helps him succeed in his quest? For most others present at the Council of Elrond, they would have more knowledge about how terrible/impossible the quest is. One does not simply walk into Mordor, after all, at least according to the movie.

In response to some of your own thoughts, @Mojo, I, too always thought the elm tree Hal sees in the North Farthing was an Entwife, but on this read, I wondered to myself rather if it was a huorn. Though when I consider the speed at which Hal said it was travelling "walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch", it does seem more likely to be an Ent or Entwife.

I always thought that Narya had a bit to do with Gandalf's affinity for fireworks, fire, light and his pipeweed smoke-rings and also possibly helped him defeat the Balrog. However, we never see him on the page without Narya, so who's to say if those were not his natural Istari abilities?

[Mojo]

Some great points about Narya. The one glimpse we are given into Gandalf's character without Narya comes from The Valaquenta portion of The Silmarillion

Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience.

Of Melian much is told in the Quenta Silmarillion. But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

The one section I'd like to highlight here is "they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts." This is an interesting juxtaposition (whether it be intentional or unintentional) to Frodo's somewhat rapid decision to leave the Shire in Chapter 2:

He did not tell Gandalf, but as he was speaking a great desire to follow Bilbo flamed up in his heart – to follow Bilbo, and even perhaps to find him again. It was so strong that it overcame his fear: he could almost have run out there and then down the road without his hat, as Bilbo had done on a similar morning long ago.

Now, I'm not sure if this is intentional or unintentional on Tolkien's part, using the phrase "flamed up in his heart" is awfully similar to the phrase @Boromir88 cited about "rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill." Now, one other quote I'll draw attention to is from the very end of The Silmarillion (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) which summarizes the Quest for Mount Doom thusly:

For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir took on himself the burden, and alone with his servant he passed through peril and darkness and came at last in Sauron's despite even to Mount Doom; and there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring of Power, and so at last it was unmade and its evil consumed.

Frodo the Halfling, at the bidding of Mithrandir...I think all of these quotes put together at least leave open the possibility that Gandalf encouraged Frodo, perhaps subliminally with spiritual promptings (the "flaming up in his heart") to take on the Quest of the Ring and not pass it off to another. This may be interesting to revisit when we read the Council of Elrond chapter as well.

[Lirimaer]

Chapter 2:

The second disappearance of Mr. Bilbo Baggins was discussed in Hobbiton, and indeed all over the Shire, for a year and a day, and was remembered much longer than that. It became a fireside-story for young hobbits; and eventually Mad Baggins, who used to vanish with a bang and a flash and reappear with bags of jewels and gold, became a favourite character of legend and lived on long after all the true events were forgotten.

So straight away we're at a year after, and then a heartbeat later Bilbo is a fairy-tale ... tempus fugit, the text tells us repeatedly. But the most striking thing about this to me is that the true events were not actually witnessed - no one knew about his magic ring which made him invisible, so it was just a wizard's trick and easily forgotten; nobody came with him to the lonely mountain, so it was all tales and moonshine. They never knew the whole truth, (though they never knew they were missing it,) and gradually even what they did have was taken from them through careless hyperbole.

While the movies were quick to set up Merry and Pippin as fool-companions, Tolkien is at pains to present them as astute, concerned friends watching Frodo carefully and noting his habits.

his closest friends were Peregrin Took (usually called Pippin), and Merry Brandybuck (his real name was Meriadoc, but that was seldom remembered). Frodo went tramping over the Shire with them; but more often he wandered by himself, and to the amazement of sensible folk he was sometimes seen far from home walking in the hills and woods under the starlight. Merry and Pippin suspected that he visited the Elves at times, as Bilbo had done.
[...]
He took to wandering further afield and more often by himself; and Merry and his other friends watched him anxiously. Often he was seen walking and talking with the strange wayfarers that began at this time to appear in the Shire.

As so we have this change in Frodo ... we have these precious few paragraphs and yet it feels like SO MUCH time has gone by. A lot has changed, and while the simple are blithely oblivious, this is by no means all. It is nice to actually feel respect for Merry and Pippin again here.

And it's here that we see that Frodo, though only a close relation of Bilbo, has a rapport and understanding of things in the wider world which is unusual and accurate. In contrast we see the rumour mill in the pub, and instead of the Gaffer defending Bilbo, we now have Sam defending Frodo. Sam, being lettered and all, is revealed not only to have a better understanding of things than his papa, but that he thinks deeply about things. I do like the way he is shown sublimating his concerns about the Elves leaving in droves to think about the job he's got to do tomorrow - this is such a very human thing to do ... "oh no this catastrophe I can't do anything about, also what are we going to eat for breakfast?" Aye, Sam, focus on the things you can do. It is what you do best. <3

What I do quite like about the references to time passing is that Tolkien takes us through it as Tarantino might, back and forth, back and forth, and we're like okay, good time's gone by, and we assume nothing important happened - until we get this curveball: Gandalf visited way back then, then again for a bit and then, but now he hasn't been seen for 9 years! What was a history is suddenly a mystery, and as we leave the pub with Sam, (seriously, filmmakers - the scene is so CLEAR) we move on up to Bag End, where Frodo has a Visitor.

What I like about the book is that the flight of the hobbit(s) is such a delicious slow-burn. There is no great hurry, yet ... you have time, Frodo ... let's talk and think about this some more ... in the morning, after a good night's sleep! ... and so we have the great history of the rings from Gandalf, and a polite but unknowing, 'How terrifying!" from Frodo in response to the lore regarding mortals wearing Rings of Power, and Sam cutting the grass in the garden. A perfect set-up!

I'mma leave it there for now. Long chapter!

[Boromir88]

@Mojo I think all of these quotes put together at least leave open the possibility that Gandalf encouraged Frodo, perhaps subliminally with spiritual promptings (the "flaming up in his heart") to take on the Quest of the Ring and not pass it off to another. This may be interesting to revisit when we read the Council of Elrond chapter as well.

Fascinating. There's always something new I had not thought about before. It will be neat to revisit this in The Council of Elrond. Certainly it's not something that would be out-of-character for Gandalf. He admits to Frodo that he needed to help Bilbo discard the ring:

'A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else's care - and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too.

I find it also interesting Gandalf is speaking generally here,'a Ring of Power' not just 'the One Ring.' Gandalf was given Narya, but the same might be said of the 3 Elven rings. None of the bearers 'threw away' their Rings of Power, they either kept them (Galadriel) or the bearer passed their Ring onto someone else's care. Cirdan to Gandalf. I believe Elrond had Vilya passed on to him by Gil-galad. It's the same with Bilbo, he's not throwing away the Ring. He's passed it on to Frodo as part of his will leaving Bag End and his other possessions.

Additionally how often does an author, give away an important part of the plot I mean essentially from the very beginning? How is Frodo going to destroy the Ring when he can't even summon up the will to throw it in his fire? Granted at this point, it's not known that Frodo will be the one to take up the challenge, but how is anyone going to destroy it? Gandalf comes right out and says, yeah "a Ring of Power looks out for itself, it's keeper never abandons it." At the same time, we start believing in the same Fool's hope that Gandalf has, because that's what Gandalf does. Inspire and rekindle hearts into believing in hope, even a Fool's hope. Which as I've maintained for quite awhile, this is more than a simple story about good vs. evil. One of it's major themes, to me, is hope vs. despair.

We are immediately confronted by despair, in the same way that Frodo is "I wish this never happened" "Mordor seems so far away, how am I ever going to do this?" It all seems very hopeless, but then there's Gandalf

...'But I will always help you.' He laid his hand on Frodo's shoulder. 'I will help you bear this burden, as long as it is yours to bear.'

@Lirimaer What I like about the book is that the flight of the hobbit(s) is such a delicious slow-burn.

Like you, as I've gotten older, and particularly the last time I read Lord of the Rings a few years ago, I started feeling more hobbit-like. Indeed, Bilbo has probably become my favorite character. I never quite understood when Tolkien writes in the Foreward the Scouring "was an essential part of the plot, foreseen from the outset," until my last reading. I always accepted Jackson's explanation that the Scouring was simply un-filmable. After the destruction of the Ring, how was the Scouring an essential part of the plot?

Then I read The Hobbit. Bilbo titles it There and Back Again. The 'back again' was important to Tolkien, the return journey, back to home. Bilbo's adventure is quite different, of course, and The Lord of the Rings is a much grander tale. Bilbo is leaving the comforts of his home to go on a treasure hunt. His adventure isn't setting out to "save the Shire." Frodo's is, but still 'home' was important to Tolkien. Right at the beginning of The Hobbit, you're drawn into the idea of home...

"It was a hobbit-hole and that means comfort" (An Unexpected Party)

The 'slow-burn' of the Lord of the Rings is important, because Tolkien wanted to establish home. Also, set it up as quite different than Bilbo's adventure. Frodo is fleeing from danger, which now threatens the Shire, into more danger, in order to save the Shire. For Sauron now is aware of hobbits, and the Shire is no longer safe.

'I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now. I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again.'

Frodo is rather funny. I think at some point we've probably all thought perhaps our neighbors are too meddlesome, or annoying and could use a rude wake-up call. In the end though, if something devastating was to happen so close to 'home,' like to one of my neighbors, it would effect me too. So, we need that slow-burn to feel a connection to the Shire and it makes the 'return journey' an essential part of the plot. (Don't get me wrong, I'm still glad Jackson decided not to film the Scouring, because I very much doubt he could have done proper justice to it's importance. And if not, then it's better he just didn't film it at all. )

[Nen]

This is going to be short. Sam Gamgee is afraid he might be turned into a toad or "something unnatural". Where did he get this idea from? Gandalf implies that he could turn Sam into a toad. Could he? In the beginning of this epic we are given the idea that wizards are fairly common, and have the stereotypical characteristics assigned to wizards in general. Yet, having read the book fully through (and the legends as well) it does not appear to make sense that Gandalf could turn Sam into a toad (and wizards are not common after all!).

Also, on reading these first two chapters again (such a delightful read after years and years!), it is dawning upon me that each of Tolkien's peoples stand for something. Hobbiton stands for home with its busy-bodies and neighbourly squabbles but also good, old-fashioned neighbourliness. Someone mentioned that the Hobbits are child-like. But I don't think it is so. They represent the simple, ordinary folk whose biggest problems likely amount to the fact that they were not invited to a birthday party.

I look forward to seeing what else can be gleaned from the reading of these peoples of Middle-earth.

[Boromir88]

The Shadow of the Past

Most of what I thought about when reading The Shadow of the Past I commented on in my previous post. Some of the smaller things that stood out...

As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo also showed signs of good 'preservation': outwardly he retained the appearance of of a robust and energetic hobbit just out of his tweens...but it was not until Frodo approached the usually more sober age of fifty that they began to think it queer.

I still think Frodo was cast too young, Elijah Wood looked like the youngest of the hobbit actors and that just didn't fit what I imagined Frodo. But I am less bothered by Frodo's physical appearance in the movies, after that passage stuck out to me this reading. Perhaps it would have been better to show the longer passage of time like the books, but keep Frodo's physical appearance the same and 'well preserved.' I'll be interested in revisiting this after the Ring's destruction, if there is a noted aging difference in Frodo's appearance, like in Bilbo.

In my previous post I mentioned how Gandalf is a character that gives Frodo, and me, hope...but this might be his worst chapter. Gandalf's made a mistake and it's bothering him, not only internally, but externally he's noted and looking more 'bent' like carrying a heavy weight. We get used to Gandalf being somewhat short and snippy, especially if it's a 'foolish' question, or foolish behavior. But he gets snippy with Frodo in this chapter, and well I can hardly blame Frodo:

Gandalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted. 'I knew much and I have learned much,' he answered. 'But I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you. The history of Elendil and Isildur and the One Ring is known to all the Wise. Your ring is shown to be that One Ring, by the fire-writing alone, apart from any other evidence.'

Frodo continues pressing Gandalf on when he found all this out and Gandalf responds 'sharply.' Sorry, but I'm siding with Frodo here. Really, Gandalf, you're dumping all of this crap about the Ring on the hobbit, and "I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you.' I can hardly blame Frodo for being upset. I like it though, because it is a moment where Gandalf is not some super hero who always does and says the right thing. He made what (at this time) must have seemed like a critical mistake, and I think he responds sharply, and in a rude tone, because he's hurt and upset about himself. Gandalf is described as loooking 'older and more careworn.'

[Gwai]

Also, on reading these first two chapters again (such a delightful read after years and years!), it is dawning upon me that each of Tolkien's peoples stand for something. Hobbiton stands for home with its busy-bodies and neighbourly squabbles but also good, old-fashioned neighbourliness. Someone mentioned that the Hobbits are child-like. But I don't think it is so. They represent the simple, ordinary folk whose biggest problems likely amount to the fact that they were not invited to a birthday party.

I look forward to seeing what else can be gleaned from the reading of these peoples of Middle-earth.

Adding into what @Nen said, one thing that struck me is how ordinary even Gandalf is when he is there in the Shire. He impressively tells Frodo to "keep it secret, keep it safe," but then in the same breath he announces he's doing something as normal as going to bed. As if the normalcy of the Shire overcomes even the most powerful.

[Yávië]

Confession: I have a bad habit of starting LoTR re-reads from Rivendell, so it has been a very long time since I've read A Long Expected Party. It's not deliberate! I pick up the book sometimes to re-read the Council of Elrond and then I end up reading all the way through...from that point.

Anyways, it was a definite pleasure to re-visit the Shire. I forgot how funny the first chapter is--the gifts, Lobelia, Gandalf threatening to blow down the door, and my absolute favorite bit...

Then they went round the hole, and evicted three young hobbits (two Boffins and a Bolger) who were knocking holes in the walls of one of the cellars. Frodo also had a tussle with young Sancho Proudfoot (old Odo Proudfoot’s grandson), who had begun an excavation in the larger pantry, where he thought there was an echo.

In Shadow of the Past I really appreciated conversation between Sam and Ted Sandyman at the Green Dragon. A look at Sam, independent from Frodo, and he's talking about walking trees and chanting about elves. I love Sam's love of stories and his fascination with the wider world even though he's in many ways, a very hobbit-y hobbit.

I had also forgotten how early some of these well-known Gandalf quotes come up (the fault of the movies, I'm sure). "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given, us," and the bit about Gollum and pity, and "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?" So many iconic and important sentiments expressed not at a time of great duress or high drama, but simply in the quiet of the Shire.

And we get a reference to Ancalagon!

Thanks for the thoughts on Narya, @Boromir88 and @Mojo. I wish we knew more about..."The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles..."

[Karis Ziranphel]

I am a bit late in joining it. Couldn't find my old beat-up copies that I normally read, so had to actually open the box set I bought several years ago. Finally starting with "Concerning Hobbits" after reading all of Tolkien's notes at the beginning. It is interesting to once again see his reaffirmation that although his situation and experiences of course influenced him, he asserts very strongly that the story was long in existence before the writing, and was written to get the story out and provide the backstory for the language. Okay- jumping into the story now.

[Androthelm]

I found this graphic very helpful:


This is definitely a lot of math to try and figure out, especially after a night of eating and drinking.

I think a better way of saying it so that the Hobbits could understand him would have been something like "I wish I knew half of you better, and many of you deserve to be liked a lot more than you are. All except the Sackville-Bagginses, who are really terrible Hobbits." (Obviously being a good-mannered Hobbit, Bilbo never would have said the last part.)

While this graphic is pretty and does a good job of explaining one of the halves, I actually have a bone to pick with it on a couple of points. To work through Bilbo's statement:

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

First, we should (as they do) break this down into two parts -- separated by the and. On the one hand, he "[doesn't] know half of you half as well as [he] should like" and, on the other. he "like[ss] less than half of you half as well as you deserve.". No necessary connection and, importantly no mutual exclusion.
So, first: Bilbo "[doesn't] know half of you half as well as [he] should like". We have a group -- half of you -- which he doesn't know half as well as he should like. Easy, right? 50%. That is what the graphic identifies as the green half. However, the placement of the "Don't" complicates things. If I came in here and said "I don't recognize half the names in this thread" it could mean that the specific number I've quoted -- half -- are not-recognized by me. However it can also be used colloquially to suggest that I DO know some number of people here, less than half. Bilbo's statement may suggest this: Do Not: Know Half rather than Half: Do Not Know. In fact, I'm going to argue that this second reading is more likely than the one presented in the graphic because if it were that he Half -- Does Not Know then he might also say that he does know the other half and I, anyway, have a hard time imagining Bilbo describing a situation in which he does know half of them as well as they deserve as, uh, not knowing half of them half as well as they deserve.

So, Bilbo is almost as vague as that text block I just wrote and, worse, there is no implication that the "you" in the second clause of his sentence references the half he just acknowledged, so even if we define it as roughly half the group, there's no saying that the half he half-likes are half of the half he doesn't know. For instance: He knows Lobelia more thank half as well as he would like (i.e. he would like to know her less) and does like her less than half than she deserves (i.e. she is better than he gives her credit for. So if we divide this group into two pairs of groups -- people Bilbo knows too little / knows enough and people Bilbo likes too little / likes enough -- Lobelia is both someone he knows enough AND likes too little. Again, Bilbo doesn't specifically restate that he's referencing the full group with his second clause, but there is also no explicit evidence that he's referring to a subgroup -- if we go by the pronoun "last mentioned" rule (Androthelm is talking too much, Bilbo is frustrated. His post will go unread. = I speak too much, so Bilbo's post is ignored) then he has still only said "you" in reference to the full group, since he spends the second half of the first clause talking about himself without an object.

In essence, Bilbo is hopelessly vague and this graphic makes a couple of assumptions in order to make his statement clearer. And Bilbo, who writes simply and crisply for the majority of the Hobbit and is known to love riddles and poetry, is probably being confusing on purpose. So much for your good-mannered Hobbit.

Below: Live footage of me pulling everyone in for deep-cut sentence analysis.

[Mojo]

Ooh the old Debater in me loves the deep cut of intense analysis of one sentence! Great stuff here.

Also, just a reminder that next week is a 3- chapter week so a little extra reading time may be necessary (though two of them are shorter chapters by Tolkien standards).

[Flame Fried Ent]

So....kinda late to the party. Kept on putting off taking the books off the shelf.

Are we allowed to talk Prologue now too? Cause I'm really REALLY questioning the claim that the Hobbits were the first to smoke plants in pipes. Even if we allow that pipeweed came from Numenor....what other uses did it have for the Numenorians that they brought it with them?? Unless it's an invasive species?

Anyway. Vent over.

One thing I noticed that struck me as a bit of an Easter Egg/foreshadowing--the Gaffer is the locally acknowledged expert on TATERS, whether they be mashed, boiled or stuck in stews. "In the matter of 'roots,' especially potatoes, the Gaffer was recognized as the leading authority by all in the neighbourhood, including himself." (Long Expected Party). No wonder Sam waxes so poetically about them later! At least he comes by his love of potatoes honestly.

I also found it interesting that the Gaffer didn't like the miller. Partially it was, I think, that the miller was questioning and pushing him. But somehow I'm wondering if the Gaffer was quoting Tolkien's love of trees over machines. Mills were probably as advanced as the Hobbits got in terms of technology--so making the technology-maker unlikeable? Sounds like pure Tolkien.