'Peeling the Onion': a personal reading

Discussions in Middle-earth lore, languages and books.
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Fea
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halfir's monumental thread on Tom Bombadil can be read online once more - see the inhouse and out-of-house 'Peeling the Onion' links on that thread on the new plaza sub-lore 'archive.' what has been mythical is now only legendary, and merely requires time (lots of it) - for the thread is very long.

the thread has been re-published thanks to the new plaza - its author and his (worshipful) admins; also a Word document made by @Troelsfo from a version of the old plaza thread. behind this cast of credits, however, is the unfazed and unhurried work of @Saranna, the last of the old lore team to keep alight halfir's candle. for some years, Saranna ran a Fb group, which included several members of the old lore team, with an aim that most other members of the group seemed to regard as quixotic, namely to make a publication of halfir's plaza writings in memorium.

my own engagement with halfir's old plaza writings has never extended far beyond 'Peeling the Onion.' He was dead when I first read his monumental post, though I only came to understand this as I read its last pages. on the very last page of the waybackmachine thread, Troelsfo and Lord of the Rings speak their mind to Saranna's (subsequent) question and say what she refused to hear: halfir's argument was too all-over-the-place, ultimately incoherent. These two plaza loremasters of old, and maybe all but one of the others, gave up on this thread. They knew it contained gold, but their efforts revealed no scarlet thread.

Troelsfo and Lord of the Rings were correct. Yet one might turn the tables: what failed halfir was his audience, who he invited to put him right, yet took their time in so doing! In the event, only five years after the thread began was the right comment delivered.

What is most excellent in 'Peeling the Onion' is the first phase of the endeavour, articulated as a preliminary but necessary step, a surveying of *all* the textual evidence implicated in the genesis of Tom Bombadil. halfir here sets out the building blocks of *any* attempt to understand Tom Bombadil. Unfortunately, he fails - spectacularly, in my opinion - to understand the evidence he has assembled: *everything* that follows this introductory survey is wonky in one way or another.

As a reader's guide: if you open one of the two versions of this thread, then gaze with awe upon the opening wonderful textual exegesis - long and laborious, pregnant, and then skim the various lunatic fringe speculations that circle different versions of the original list of wild and crazy Bombadil theories with which halfir began.

halfir was posting this initial good stuff in 2005 and 2006; and the comments we can read on the internet archive (nb. no new plaza archive of this version has yet been made!) are respectful and intelligent enough. but it takes until 2010 for geordie to give his digested reflection on halfir's analysis of the original Bombadil texts. on my introduction on the new plaza archive i wrote:
#609 - on 8 May 2010, 'plaza source guru' geordie alerts his friend to an overlooked source
geordie has been making interesting comments from the beginning. now, however, he pulls an amazing move: he sets the 1934 Bombadil material in the context of the archeological dig at Lydney Park, that drew the attention of Tolkien and the archeologist R. Collingwood. Suddenly, the second of the germ poems that halfir has shown us looks different - Bombadil who is not caught (by tree or badger or wight) - echoes the godling of Lydney Park, whose name, Nodens, means (explains Tolkien) *the Catcher.*

Suddenly, we have a context in which to make sense of Bombadil - a wild, very ancient realm, where Nodens of Lydney Park gazed east over the water to Sulis, goddess of the hot springs. geordie reads what halfir presented, and casts a net of gold - catching a salmon.

but it took him five years. halfir was still alive in 2010. indeed, he comments immediately, revealing - imo - a refusal to hear anything that his friend was saying. i guess he was too tired, burned out by his own post, and maybe already ill? in any case, *this* is where this thread got to, imo - and it is no mean feat to have got so far, we are talking Tom Bombadil here after all!

I suggest we can look at all this as a failure of communication or, simply, celebrate its success - albeit with the humbling realization that it takes a very long time to make sense of things.

for my own understanding of 'the Tom Bombadil question,' i would like to thank geordie for indicating what Troelsfo, Lord of the Rings, and even (especially!) halfir himself could not quite see, namely that Tom Bombadil as we know him arose in a poem of 1934 when Tolkien adopted this character (long named and dressed) to the role of a domestic spirit who could not be caught, echoing imagined stories of a sinister godling to the west, who was once known in those parts as 'the Catcher.' What Tolkien was doing when he wrote the 'Adventures of Tom Bombadil' was exploring something he had found in the air, and in the ground, and in the stones of Lydney Park.

Orc
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Does it echo? Generally, you would think an echo would be more of the same. You shout 'hello' in the darkness and you get 'hello' back, not 'piss off', which seems more like the relation of your focused term here. Your connection seems to be centered solely around the idea of 'catching', something present in the name of a god found in a park and a single line in a poem. But it's not used in the same way. Bombadil is not a Catcher, like Nodens. He's not even the caught, Nodens' presumptive prey. He is one not caught. Is Nodens associated with the tree or badger or wight? Where is the connection besides the use of a relatively common word? A word translated even, and not even contained specifically to 'caught', but to all the different words association with catching or taking or acquiring. Is this the only concept that Nodens and Bombadil are associated with, even in their dissimilar ways? It seems like the reason you've focused in on this is because it serves the idea of finding a connection.

Which is fine, I suppose, if you have only a few things to consider. But that's not the case. As you point out, halfir was engaged with hundreds of these sorts of details. You call it 'too all-over-the-place', 'incoherent', and you make some frankly rude insinuations about why halfir did not jump to the acceptance of this particular idea. Let me posit a different reason: perhaps halfir understood the concept of coincidence.

When you have hundreds of details and compare it to hundreds of details of something else (in this case, the one is Bombadil and the other is Tolkien's life), you will always find tenuous apparent connections. The more and more you look at, the more and more statistically likely it is that you will find something that, if it were the only thing you had, might look like a smoking gun. But it isn't the only thing you have. There are hundreds by hundreds. Why not suggest Bombadil's opposition to wights is from Tolkien working on the dictionary's 'W' entries? Is this the first time Tolkien has encountered or mentioned a badger? Perhaps we move on to different lines of the poem and find roughly repeated verbs for them for anything Tolkien ever looked at in the real world?

At the end of the day, if you have nothing more than this, how is it any different than when people see the Ring-verse mention 3,7,9,1 and then freak out that Tolkien died in 1973? They, too, have found something, reversed it, and found that it now looks like something else. Are the people who think Tolkien predicted his own death catching your proverbial salmon? No. That specific example is blatantly insane. But at its core, it fails for one reason: coincidence exists. When you're trying as hard as you are, sorting through as much 'lunatic fringe speculations' (as you call it), you will find coincidences. So if you want to be taken seriously, you need to find a way to move past that inevitability. Otherwise this is just the lunatic fringe speculation that you have chosen to put on your banner.
Last edited by Elenhir on Wed Dec 09, 2020 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Galadriel
Galadriel
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Please allow me to gently correct you, Simon; firstly, although each of us current admins respected halfir’s scholarship, “worshipful” isn’t the right term; secondly, geordie’s observations shouldn’t be taken as a “failure” of any other commentator, whether that be Saranna, Troelsfo, Lord of the Rings, halfir or anyone else.

Carry on, please be civil - if this turns into more of a discussion on halfir’s thoughts it will be moved into the halfir archive.

Newborn of Imladris
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@Chrysophylax Dives @Elenhir @Sil

Just a few points;

1) Bombadil 'caught the river-daughter' - this instance of marriage by capture is another aspect of Bombadil that has perplexed readers and commentators. But yes, it makes him a catcher.
2) I have personally never worshipped halfir; he stood and stands to me as a mentor from my early days on the old Plaza, when I knew so little about Tolkien. It's often the - how to put it - the person with the wild or overexciting ideas that helps to fire ones imagination as a beginner.
3) In the huge field - as it has become - of Tolken studies, from Lin Carter all the way down to the New Plaza, I think we cannot hope (a) to read it all in once lifetime; (b) reasonably expect any one scholar to get everything right whatever their book or article or online post covers; (c) none of us surely is ever completely right about anything, that's why we get together in interest groups to see what others think.
4) I have mentioned before on the New Plaza that halfir's famous 'temper' seemed to me to be related, as tempers so often are, to hs longstanding diabetes. (My late husband had diabetes and in fact a sudden and unprecedented tendency to get very angry was his first sympton.) I also believe, from my home experience, that confusion is a major result of changes in glucose levels. This may have fed into halfir's late-on muddle about the complex topic of Bombadil.
5) That's not to say that halfir was not sometimes simply wrong out of ignorance or pig-headedness, as we all can be; none of us knows everything about anything, and sometimes two of us can be partly right and partly wrong about something, which can be a fruitful situation if it leads to discussion.
6) I hope this fits into some of the points above, and that we can use this discussion in the archive - it's quite like a halfir one in some ways :grouphug:

Fea
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wow. i have serious talk back from Saranna. a telling off from an admin. and a charge of coincidence from Elenhir. Saranna, I will put your reply on hold for now, if you do not mind, and engage with it properly another day. Admin Sil: 'please be civil!' wtf? i have no idea how i was not civil and do not understand what you are talking about.

Elenhir. You make a fair point. I don't think you make it very well. Having said that, I was about to edit the last paragraph of the original post because i recognized that i absolutely failed to make clear the significance of geordie's post. i will try and meet your charge of coincidence as i now do so.

My opinion, as someone who has read 'Peeling the Onion' properly 2 or 3 times (more times than I would wish), is that the first part in which halfir marshals the textual evidence - any and all Bombadil writings - is superb. it is intended as the basis of any subsequent (serious) discussison of Bombadil, and in this it succeeds. yet halfir does not see the wood from the trees - his exegesis is not complete; he is thoroughly conversant in all that is known and written about Tolkien by Carpenter and others, halfir places the texts in careful biographical context - yet, he is missing an element of the biography; which is supplied by geordie's signpost to Nodens, the Catcher.

"Bombadil is not a Catcher, like Nodens. He's not even the caught, Nodens' presumptive prey. He is one not caught."

Yes. Exactly.

We have now caught the professor arriving at Tom Bombadil, he who is not caught, by imagining the stories once told of Nodens, the Catcher.

A rough biography. late 1920s: Collingwood and Tolkien travel to the Wheelers' dig at Lydney Park; 1932: Tolkien's 'The Name Nodens' published as appendix to the Wheelers' report on the excavation; 1934: 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' are published in the 'Oxford Magazine'; 1937: Tolkien writes to Stanley Unwin that Bombadil is the spirit of the Oxford and Berkshire countryside, placing TB some 70 or so miles to the east of Lydney Park.

I am not saying that all the answers to the 'riddle' of Tom Bombadil are found in the name Nodens, just that we have here a clear context for how Tom Bombadil became Tom Bombadil already in 1934, before 'the Lord of the Rings' was ever considered, and that most of what halfir had to say after this is wonky because he did not see this genesis clearly (and geordie's post pointed directly to it).

As a more general comment to all of you out there, I must say, I'm not exactly sorry that any of you read my original post as uncivil, as sorry for you that you so chose to read it. Still; if you do find anything uncivil please specify clearly why it is so. Thank you.

Galadriel
Galadriel
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Simon: I apologise if this wasn’t clear, but my request for civility is aimed in general at this thread and not specifically directed at you - although my first paragraph was.

To ALL: We’re speculating about a real person, and real people’s thought processes, so please consider it a general reminder to be kind and respectful. As I said, in that spirit, do carry on.

Orc
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Chrysophylax Dives wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 12:58 pm "Bombadil is not a Catcher, like Nodens. He's not even the caught, Nodens' presumptive prey. He is one not caught."

Yes. Exactly.

We have now caught the professor arriving at Tom Bombadil, he who is not caught, by imagining the stories once told of Nodens, the Catcher.
We haven't, though. We haven't caught him arriving at Tom Bombadil by imagining the stories once told of Nodens. Unless there's a hell of a lot more detail to this that you have elected not to reproduce, we have not done that. Perhaps you could reproduce the substance, if there is any, because suggesting that other people should have to wade through something you yourself have described as 'too all-over-the-place, ultimately incoherent' sounds none too friendly.

No, what you've done is caught Tolkien arriving at Tom Bombadil some time after looking into the concept of Nodens. Which is not, in itself, particularly impressive or compelling. There are a great many things Tolkien did before coming up with Bombadil, and there are a great many ideas Tolkien introduced to his writings after delving into Nodens. That is not evidence of relation. We need something more, and the loose idea of catching is not enough.

@Saranna mentions that capturing the river-daughter by marriage is a piece of Bombadil that is perplexing. I'm not sure how. It's hardly unique to Tolkien or to folklore, mythology, and that rough sort of reinterpretation that makes up a lot of early history. But if we were to constrain ourselves just to Tolkien, we've seen its like before. The earliest form of Thingol and Melian contains elements of entrapment, though some of the stronger wording was a later developed. So, rather, let's look at the abandoned 'The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin', which uses our apparent code-word 'caught':
HoME III: The Lays of Beleriand, Poems Early Abandoned, The Lay of the Fall of Gondolin wrote:There Eol saw that sheen
and he caught the white-limbed Isfin, that she ever since hath been
his mate in Doriath's forest, where she weepeth in the gloam;
CT tells us it is certain that this was composed during Tolkien's time at Leeds, which puts it before Tolkien's work on the excavation of Nodens. As we should expect, Tolkien does not need Nodens to use the word or idea of catching in his writings. Not with marriage, and not with anything else. I can look for a quote about something not being able to be caught, or slipping through an attempt at catching, in these pre-Bombadil and pre-Nodens writings, but hopefully we all understand how basic a concept like this is and how it will obviously show up in some way somewhere.
Chrysophylax Dives wrote: am not saying that all the answers to the 'riddle' of Tom Bombadil are found in the name Nodens, just that we have here a clear context for how Tom Bombadil became Tom Bombadil already in 1934
Except, again, we don't. You keep acting like this is something that we have 'caught' Tolkien doing or that the context is 'clear'. I don't quite imagine how you think that is. Do you think it is patently obvious, so simple that it defies easy explanation? Or is something you can actually take us through, showing us how one point leads to the next, is supported by information? Because if you think it is obvious, and then express feelings over how a bunch of other people you agree are good at seeing things didn't see it as obvious, that's probably a good indication it isn't, and that you're off, somehow. And if you think it can be supported by something other than the immediate jump all the way to the conclusion, please, do so.

The most you've done so far on that is invoke Letter 19, where Tolkien qualifies Bombadil as 'the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside'. This is something, but you've very plainly taken it upon yourself to view it through this conclusion you've already reached, which is generally a bad idea for analysis. One might wonder, if this is supposed to indicate a connection to Nodens, why Tolkien elects to talk about Oxfordshire and Berkshire? I am seeing, as I look into it, that Berkshire used to include more northern territory, which means that at the time Tolkien wrote this letter, he's really just talking about where he lives, in the same way I might talk about my county and the very close neighboring county, especially if together they overlap very closely in community. One might wonder why Tolkien, if he was forming Bombadil from Nodens, chose to use those counties where he resided, instead of a different county, Gloucestershire, where Nodens was. One would think the simplest explanation, if we weren't leaping to any precarious ground that could serve to bind Nodens to us, is that Tolkien is talking about the loss of the countryside where he lived and would notice it most, not some object and it's already-vanished mythical agent that reappeared in another county he doesn't name or mention. You have as much grounds for bringing this to Nodens as you do for saying Nodens was on his mind if Tolkien wrote he took a walk in a park that day: none.
As a more general comment to all of you out there, I must say, I'm not exactly sorry that any of you read my original post as uncivil, as sorry for you that you so chose to read it. Still; if you do find anything uncivil please specify clearly why it is so. Thank you.
I thought the context was clear. Perhaps you can take your confusion on this into consideration in the future when leaping to conclusions that you don't feel warrant explanation. The absolute gall to ask people to 'specify clearly why' when you refuse to do so yourself to far more relevant material! But as for why people might think you are being (deliberately) uncivil: well, you've just done it again, haven't you? You're blaming other people for not being able to see things. Lord of the Rings, Troelsfo, Saranna, halfir. Everyone who disagrees with you is put aside not because you make an argument that stands against whatever they said, but merely because they did not make the leap you made. With a lack of reasoning for why you see it, you have to focus on putting them down for not seeing it. There must be flaws in them, and you have to highlight those, because if you were to not do so, to not spuriously push them aside, you won't have anything clear. It's only clear because you've casually dismissed anyone who doesn't think so. It's incredibly disingenuous, and particularly insulting against those you have never interacted with. They're just names that you're pushing down because it serves to advance your claim without effort.

Oh, and you might say this is not particularly civil itself. You're right, it isn't. But one thing I am doing here is working with what you give me, actually addressing the points you raise. I haven't just said that others could not see what is apparently clear. I haven't presumed that someone lost their faculties because of illness for no other reason than to explain why they didn't agree with me. I haven't just deflected criticism by claiming it was not done well, suggesting I will handle it, that I was already going to handle it, and then doing nothing of the sort. Which is why @Sil, you need to stop being afraid to take a stronger stance on this sort of behavior. This lack of civility is not incidental. It is integral to the argument being made. The thread cannot move forward and this argument cannot be covered without addressing it, because without it the argument is no more than hyper-focus on a single word. And simon has made it very clear he intends to take the 'I'm sorry you were offended' option of escalation, which is the bones of that bloated final remark. There is no way to carry on in the spirit of being kind and respectful. This whole idea is built upon disrespect.

Fea
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Elenhir, it might help your frustrations with what I write if you dismiss the idea that it is an inquiry into Tom Bombadil and read it merely as a meditation on Tolkien's 1932 etymological note on 'The Name Nodens.' (It is surely acceptable, on the Tolkien fanatics plaza, to reflect on this curious text by the Professor.) However, it will not mean that much to you if you do not read 'The Name Nodens' for yourself; it is not my business to spoon feed you, or anyone and if you want to understand Tolkien then read the texts. The same point applies with no less force to 'Peeling the Onion,' which is the primary subject of this thread, and which Saranna alone among the commentators appears to have read. (Really, what business either you or Sil think you have jumping judgmentally on a post about a legendary thread of the plaza archive that neither of you have read is beyond me!)

But you ask for some spoon feeding so here is a little.

halfir shows us the only way forward: through the texts. he shows that Bombadil's name likely came from a bell in Oxford, that Bombadil was a doll belonging to one of the children, that he was slated for a role in a story, never written, set in the days of King Bronhig, and that in the mid-1930s Tolkien wrote a poem with Bombadil going boating down places in Devon.

And then halfir shows us the 1934 'Adventures of Tom Bombadil', in which we immediately recognize the character we know escaping capture by Old Man Willow, a badger, and a barrow-wight, and marrying Goldberry. As halfir says: here, fully formed is the Tom Bombadil of LOTR.

This is the achievement of halfir. But at just this point he begins to miss a few tricks - and righting them here may, I think, help right much of the rest of his post (un-wonk it). For one thing, he never stops to ask: why? What possessed Tolkien that he took the already named and dressed character of Tom Bombadil and newly titled him 'the one who cannot be caught'?

"Bombadil is not a Catcher. He is not one caught by Nodens, nor even one who escapes. He is the one not caught."

What geordie did with his post is point to an apparently quite independent train of Tolkien's thought that offers a possible explanation (it may not in the end prove correct, but only a fool would refuse to look at it). He points to Tolkien's etymological reflections on a god whose proper name in late Roman Britain was Nodens, whose more distant proper name had been lost, and whose one time title - Nodens ('the Catcher') had become his proper name when it became archaic and its meaning (in Celtic) forgotten. 'The Name Nodens' weaves proper name, title, and stories told - the name is arbitrary (even ridiculous) while the title is an abstract of the stories. 'Nodens' Tolkien also translates 'the Ensnarer' and 'the Hunter.'

Tolkien ends his note on Nodens by declaring that mere etymology cannot say whether the connotation of 'the Catcher' was sinister, though it seems relevant (he adds) that the stories that have come down to us tell of a magic hand, and that when Nodens lost his hand he lost his power. Tolkien was an etymologist by profession and inclination, here was a very ancient title, a lost proper name, and some queer old stories, descending from days beyond the reach of linguistic science, but not of his imagination. No doubt, around 1932 he was imagining most ancient stories of the Catcher, sinister and otherwise (Bilbo of the silver-hand?). In 1934 he published a poem in 'The Oxford Magazine' about one who could not be caught.

"Bombadil is not a Catcher, like Nodens. He's not even the caught, Nodens' presumptive prey. He is one not caught."

The formulation should be tidied in light of 'The Name Nodens': Nodens is not *a* Catcher, he is *the Catcher,' just as Bombadil is 'the one not caught' - these are titles.

If you are not prepared to look at this with an open mind there is no point in reading further. But for those curious to see what opens up when we realize that the LOTR-Tom Bombadil was likely born from a further meditation upon ancient (even aboriginal) meanings of 'catching,' whose origin is the (historical) godling known as Nodens, I would highlight the scene in which Bombadil places the Ring on his finger, and remains visible, and sees Frodo when he puts on the Ring. I think this relationship between Tom Bombadil and the Ring of Sauron the Ensnarer was prefigured in the 1934 poem, which tells only of the one who is not caught but (actually) presupposes another told of in other stories, the Catcher. Put another way, Bombadil had been carved in 1934 to face Nodens and in 1937 Tolkien seemed to think he could for this reason face Sauron the Necromancer (by 1939 he was less sure).

Warden of Keys
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@Chrysophylax Dives As a more general comment to all of you out there, I must say, I'm not exactly sorry that any of you read my original post as uncivil, as sorry for you that you so chose to read it. Still; if you do find anything uncivil please specify clearly why it is so. Thank you.

Only speaking for myself here but I'm trying to imagine this scenario... Say today was my first day back to the new plaza and I see someone that I have never interacted with in any capacity comment on a post I made 10 years ago on the old Plaza with: "Boro disregarded the answer staring right back at him. He must have been tired, or cranky, or ill." I would certainly have a "who does this person think they are?" reaction.

I wouldn't go as far to think it was deliberate, but I would definitely find it uncivil and address it to the person who wrote it. I mean I think it's hard enough to read tone and intention in a post people have just written today, let alone something from several years ago. As Saranna mentions in her post we're all human it's not possible for one person to know everything there is to know about Tolkien studies. So, I would question, why did this person I never interacted with before think it was necessary to apply a sinister motive (that I must have been cranky or ill that day) to a post I made 10 years ago? Or to imply that I was being deliberately ignorant in not spotting evidence sooner. So, yes, I would consider that not only unhealthy towards the goal of an insightful and beneficial discussion, but also unnecessary.

What is most excellent in 'Peeling the Onion' is the first phase of the endeavour, articulated as a preliminary but necessary step, a surveying of *all* the textual evidence implicated in the genesis of Tom Bombadil. halfir here sets out the building blocks of *any* attempt to understand Tom Bombadil. Unfortunately, he fails - spectacularly, in my opinion - to understand the evidence he has assembled: *everything* that follows this introductory survey is wonky in one way or another.

Well, see I think this is where the main difference is. I certainly haven't read the Bombadil thread in it's entirety and I never contributed to it but I had followed and read a good portion. From what I had read, my "personal reading" has always been different from yours. The goal of halfir's endeavor always seemed to me to paint a complete and total picture of Tom Bombadil. I freely admit that may have been a wrong way to read it, but I always thought halfir included those "lunatic, fringe theories" because he was attempting to find and discuss all the ingredients that went into the character, Tom Bombadil.

There is an analogy Tolkien makes to being a cook and all the ingredients that go into a recipe. The author is like the cook, and he pulls from his experiences and influences (the ingredients) to put into the pot and those ingredients combined together create something new. Tolkien wrote a ton, I mean we can say he was writing for his entire life, not only new material but also in a constant state of revising older material. As Elenhir brings up, the amount of influences and experiences Tolkien had to draw from are, I would dare to say, beyond count. Which is why I think it's simply impossible for 1 person to know everything there is to know or for to be completely "right" about everything.

Even when you limit the scope to the study of just 1 character. Everyone's experiences and influences change at different stages of our lives and with Tolkien who was writing for his entire life, well that's probably why "Peeling the Onion" became incoherent to a lot members. But I would argue the goal of that thread was to paint as complete of a picture of Tom Bombadil as anyone could attempt. It was to try to discover and discuss all the "ingredients" that went into the pot when Tolkien created the character, nothing more and nothing less. On the surface, Nodens sounds like a plausible and reasonable ingredient, but the point you'd still have to address and answer is, Nodens would just be 1 ingredient of many.

Orc
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@Chrysophylax Dives, asking you to show the slightest bit of unmanipulated evidence and stop relying on insulting other people to prop up your argument is not asking to be spoon-fed, you pretentious, slanderous, rage-baiting jackass. It has always been common decency to quote when asked to provide evidence. It has always been good manners to describe material that you know is not readily available. I understand that you prefer this pseudo-mystical presentation where you don't actually do any of that, but if that's more important to you, I suggest you take up the hobby of performing seances, where that is the expectation, and then come to the lore forum when you want to practice lore.
(Really, what business either you or Sil think you have jumping judgmentally on a post about a legendary thread of the plaza archive that neither of you have read is beyond me!)
What business you think you have acting like I haven't ever read the thread because I'm not willing to reread in its entirety to find the possibly non-existent context you've lazily invoked in a middle of a pompous celebration of your own ego over people who I know from experience can actually put an argument together, that's beyond me. @Sil, do you see how there is no substance here, just denigration of anyone who doesn't kowtow to this inane babble? It goes hand-in-hand with the 'worshipful' aspect you previously found distasteful. People are raised up as paramount thinkers, and when they share ideas with him, that itself is used to demonstrate the worth. But that's a delicate lie, because as soon as those great users of years past disagree with what he is peddling, the fault is theirs, and the idea is raised up in spite of them not thinking it, with them being pulled down. No idea stands on its own merits. He refuses to share or discuss the merits of the ideas, just invoking the merits or demerits of the people, which change upon a whim as the situation demands.

This is not lore. This is self-serving mythologizing of others and using them as props. This is cultish doublethink.
If you are not prepared to look at this with an open mind
The problem is that your definition of 'an open mind' appears to be trusting whatever you say, as if you were some sort of infallible god. But we can't trust whatever you say. Apart from the main thrust of your argument being saying other people couldn't see what you see (an inherently untrustworthy take on anything), I've already caught you grossly misrepresenting Letter 19 (if you're half as able as you seem to believe you are, it would be more correctly described as lying about Letter 19, but I'm prepared to settle for the version where you're deficient, not malicious). You are clearly (and when I say clearly I mean you can actually see the argument because I have already made it in this thread, and am not using it as you do, as a replacement of any argument) willing to twist information to fit the conclusion you want. Why should anyone take what you say on faith? If you would bother making an argument, you might see that people do have an open mind. But that does require making an argument, something you've been openly hostile to the mere prospect of. However, if you want to give it a go, honestly and sincerely, I can wait for as long as that takes you.

Oh, in the meanwhile, let's add a new misrepresentation:
'Nodens' Tolkien also translates 'the Ensnarer' and 'the Hunter.'

[...]

The formulation should be tidied in light of 'The Name Nodens': Nodens is not *a* Catcher, he is *the Catcher,' just as Bombadil is 'the one not caught' - these are titles.
This is, as it happens, untrue. Here is the actual quote from 'The Name Nodens':
Whether the god was called the 'snarer' or the 'catcher' or the 'hunter' in some sinister sense, or merely as being a lord of venery, mere etymology can hardly say. It is suggestive, however, in this connexion that the most remarkable thing about Nuada was his hand, and that without his hand his power was lost. Even in the dimmed memories of the Welsh legend in llaw ereint we hear still an echo of the ancient fame of the magic hand of Nodens the Catcher.
This part, the last three sentences of the piece, is the only place where Tolkien writes the words 'snarer' with 'to ensnare' in the previous sentence (never 'ensnarer' or, as you have produced it 'the Ensnarer') in the whole text and also the only place where 'Catcher' is ever capitalized or where it is given as *the* catcher or the 'catcher' or the Catcher or anything of the sort. Despite your presentation, Tolkien does not draw any real attention to Nodens as *the* Catcher as opposed to *a* Catcher. I can call my mailman the mailman while not excluding the concept of other mailman. You've just made that up that firm angle of prime importance because twisting it towards unique specialty makes your weak argument appear stronger.

It is not in and of itself a great big deal that you have adjusted the importance of these ideas, but for someone who is very belligerently resisting any attempt to make you show your work, and as someone who has demonstrably pushed for firm identification of meaning in less strong wording, at this point it starts to resemble an intentional pattern of deceit. If you take a dozen different statements and happen to make all of them seem stronger than what they are, suddenly together you can portray something quite unsupportable as robust. Personally, I'm quite curious, given how lackluster your argument is, why you think this applies to Bombadil at all. Tolkien spends far more time in this text writing about the silver hand that was lost. It receives more passages within the text and the term 'hand' in the context of Nodens (and his etymological precursors) appears more than any concept of catching. Hell, he even talks about it in the these last three sentences you're drawing most of your vague allusions from. If your argument is (and so far you have shown the best parts of it to be no more than) finding a term that is used in both this text and Tolkien's writings and leaning heavily into it, I struggle to understand why how you arrived at this connection and this connection alone. More naturally you should connect it to Celebrimbor, whose name derives from 'silver hand'. In fact, you could make a better, though still incredibly terrible and wishy-washy, argument for Celebrimbor being what Tolkien drew specifically from Nodens. For Celebrimbor is, as it happens, an actual catcher of sorts, being a maker of Rings of Power. And there are several characters who have lost hands. Why not suppose Nodens as their source, too?

It feels, at this point, that your reluctance to quote or properly paraphrase or construct any argument where we could examine the details of your reasoning is mainly there so that we can't use whatever flimsy reasoning underpins this to make so many equally 'clear' conclusions that your charade becomes a veritable parade, and we're left once again not seeing anything special about Bombadil. Because if a dozen ideas are equally possibly seeded from one word connected with Nodens, it just becomes another one of those global wells of inspiration, not the particular noteworthy thing for Bombadil specifically. I would conjecture that, given your incredible fixation with raising up and casting down the names of the old greats of the Plaza, that Bombadil specifically here is appealing to you because it is one of those fixated topics. Essentially, you're after the oomph but working with pfft.

Tilion
Tilion
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This thread has already had one request by an admin for civility which has not been granted. @Elenhir, @Chrysophylax Dives, please refer to General Rule 1. You have both been issued with a warning. If you are in a discussion and feel you are being deliberately provoked or receiving hostility, please bring your concerns to the admin team or use the report button, rather than lashing out in the thread.

This thread is now closed. If anyone wishes to start a new thread to discuss the lore aspects contained in this one, without personal attacks, namecalling, or slights on persons living or dead, feel free to do so.

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