LOTR Read-Along Book II

Discussions in Middle-earth lore, language and books.
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Greetings Everyone! With the return of the New Plaza and the ongoing global limitations on activities due to the virus pandemic, this seemed like an ideal time to get folks together for a collaborative Read-Along. The idea of the Read-Along is to read 2-3 chapters per week and discuss them here. The plan is to start discussions on Monday of each week on a few chapters, so ideally people will have read them prior to Monday. That said, if you get started late, you can always catch up and join in the fun!

In the interest of not spamming the Lore Forums with too many threads, I think I will start a new thread for each of the six "Books" contained within LOTR. You can check out the prior discussions, linked below:
> Book I Thread

The Schedule for Book II is:
August 10: Many Meetings, The Council of Elrond
August 17: The Ring Goes South, A Journey in the Dark, The Bridge of Khazad-dum
August 24: Lothlorien, The Mirror of Galadriel, Farewell to Lorien
August 31: The Great River, The Breaking of the Fellowship

Open to any and all, by any medium you like (regular book, audio book, etc). Also, anyone willing to help out by throwing out discussion topics or ideas can certainly do so. I envision this more as a "community read-through" and collaborative discussion rather than "Mojo tells you what to think about the books."

During our Discussions on Book I, there were several questions that came up that were not answered within that book that the group decided to keep a special eye out for consideration as we read Book II. This is an evolving and ongoing list so I will do my best to keep it updated.
Outstanding Questions From Book I
- What drew Gandalf away from the Shire with such haste?
- Timeline of the Nazgul's travels?
- Why does Aragorn carry around the Shards of Narsil?
- Gandalf mentions "two powers at work" in the Shadow of the Past, what were they and what influence do they have on the story?
- What role does Providence/Grace continue to play throughout the story? (Especially in the formation of the Fellowship)
- Is fate or luck driving events of the Fellowship?
- Are there different primary "adversaries" in each Book?

Outstanding Questions From Book II
- Aragorn insisted on mentioning the Green Stone in Bilbo's song about Earendil, what was the importance?
Last edited by Mojo on Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:57 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Book II - Ch 1 Many Meetings
At first he thought that he had slept late, after a long unpleasant dream that still hovered on the edge of memory. Or perhaps he had been ill?
Frodo's nightmare life. Great to wake up in a bed after roughing it, ain't it! :lol:

So here we are, twenty-odd days later ... (and only a month from his birthday set-off date - which feels so long ago!)
But you have some strength in you, my dear hobbit! As you showed in the Barrow. That was touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all. I wish you could have held out at Weathertop.
Hm. It seems Gandalf has some particular insight here into Frodo's head. *reads on* Oh that's fine then, reading minds and memories ... frickin' what?! Some people like to be asked first, Gandalf.
so far my only thought has been to get here; and I hope I shan’t have to go any further. It is very pleasant just to rest. I have had a month of exile and adventure, and I find that has been as much as I want.
This is very much the opinion of Covid-19 shut-ins ... it was alright as far as it went, but enough is enough! Now bring me a beer and let me watch the footie with me mates!
some fragment of the blade still in the closed wound.[...] Elrond removed a splinter. It was deeply buried, and it was working inwards.
This always reminds me of the Snow Queen, and I find it's very effective to know that story/have it in the back of your mind when reading this part. The unnatural shard of ice which makes the boy cold and cruel is very reminiscent.
here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lordsof the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.
How interesting! I don't think I've ever seen this before. Gandalf, tell us MORE! (I am a bit worried about Gandalf's beard at this point - no beard should be able to 'go stiff and straight' at a moment's notice!!)

Gandalf's little pep talk to himself is interesting - the idea that the Elven-wise in the Undying Lands would be able to see the changes wrought in Frodo by the Ring, but that Frodo himself would not. They would in fact see right through him. I am trying to imagine it and failing.

Awww. Sam stroking Frodo's hand; I did wonder if their growing closeness was all film/internet-based until Sam BLUSHES ... all I can hear now is my brother cooing, "Aw Mister Frodo, I loves you I does!" because brothers are sent to try us.

(GLORFINDEL <3)
‘Quite right,’ answered the dwarf, gathering up the cushions and courteously assisting Frodo back into his seat.
I like to think that he did this by picking him up and sitting him on the cushions. Courteously, of course.
Frodo learned that Grimbeorn the Old, son of Beorn, was now the lord of many sturdy men
At this point I am feeling sorry for Mrs Beorn and Mrs Grimbeorn.
Bombur was now so fat that he could not move himself from his couch to his chair at table, and it took six young dwarves to lift him
See now, that is the sort of lighthearted interlude which I would have enjoyed seeing filmed.

The meeting with Bilbo in my head is all film ... and it's so wrong! The Ring conversation is had out here, in public, but it's intensely private for all that. No one seems to notice the awkwardness, and Bilbo clearly understands more that he ever did before about the nature of the Ring. I wonder if he saw his own feelings for Gollum reflected in Frodo's eyes - that desire to strike!

Aragorn helping Bilbo finish his composition is a sweet sweet thing.
Aragorn insisted on my putting in a green stone. He seemed to think it important.
I don't know why either, Bilbo. I suppose I might, if I had read the Sil anytime recently, but I have not.

I had forgotten that this chapter was all catching up and socialising. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it strikes me that PJ missed a trick making movies instead of a series. We could have all these things, the little lighthearted moments and the serious plot-moving moments all making for a very good ... oh who am I kidding? We'd get another director who thinks their vision is better than the book. Nice chapter - some things I'd like to explore more of, to be honest, but then I'd very much like to just have a book which documents the daily lives of Elves. :grin:
The Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon, but loved best the stars.

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Frodo waking up in Rivendell like

Image

Maybe it was just the mood I was in when I read this chapter, but Gandalf seemed very....jovial with Frodo. As if he sensed the great danger that Frodo passed through but didn't really articulate it to Frodo. This really stood out to me with the quote @Lirimaer provided about the Barrow. Calling that "touch and go" and then immediately jumping to Weathertop and just leaving it at "I wish you could have held out." Seems like Gandalf is really only skimming the surface here, and I can't tell if he's taking it lightly because it's all in the past or if he doesn't want to give the recently-recovered Frodo a scaring out of his wits. Gandalf seems very odd during this whole Many Meetings chapter, sort of returning to the happy-go-lucky Gandalf of the Hobbit and not as much his typical deep and brooding self.
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Good point on the green stone! Why does Aragorn insist it be mentioned? I have no ideas about this.

And I think Gandalf is pretty jovial, too. Maybe he's just very relieved Frodo is alive and he doesn't see the point worrying about past trials already survived when he has so many future problems to worry him?

Random, but I would really love to see Gandalf and Tom B meet. I think they meet after the War, but we don't actually get to read about it, right?

(Also - I tried to organise my thoughts/comments a little better so they don't become long strings of endless text and quotations this time.)
------
Book I vs. Book II
I have some overarching thoughts on Book I but since I'm contrasting it to Book II I wanted to post it here.

If Many Meetings were at the end of Book I instead of the start of Book II, I feel as though it would be a very nice and neat, tidy story with a full beginning, middle and mostly satisfying end. Frodo got the ring out of the Shire and succeeded! Frodo and Bilbo reunite!
Book I feels very intimate to me as we follow around four hobbits on their adventure getting the Ring out of the Shire and on to Rivendell. For me this book is all hobbits and to a lesser degree, the more worldly people they meet along the way (Gildor, Tom B, Barliman, Strider) as they persist against challenges (Old Man Willow, Barrow-wights, Bill Ferny & Co., Black Riders). The setting is smaller and the cast is smaller and the world feels smaller.

Suddenly, in Book II, the world expands a lot especially with the Council of Elrond. The cast of characters grows. The setting is going to get a lot bigger and the stakes will be raised. Right now, it weirdly reminds me of Dorothy arriving in Oz: "We're not in Kansas anymore" - the hobbits are sort of fascinated by Rivendell and the wonders of the Elves but deep down, they just really want to go back home.
I'm interested to observe how this "feeling" of the world/setting/cast size changes as I continue reading Book II.
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I'm still working my way through the Council of Elrond, but here are my thoughts on Ch. 1 Many Meetings.
Frodo and Gandalf
I love the moment when Frodo wakes up to see Gandalf and tries to pepper him with questions. Can you blame him?
My other favourite moment here is, of course, when Frodo and Bilbo reunite!

I wondered if Frodo was embarrassed about that brief moment of weakness in the Barrow that we discussed @Boromir88 when he talks about it with Gandalf. I read this portion to mean Gandalf knew Frodo thought about putting the Ring on at that point, but did he realise he considered abandoning his friends? :headshake:

I cheered at Gandalf's defense of Barliman! :headbang:
"'You don't know much even about them, if you think old Barliman is stupid,' said Gandalf. 'He is wise enough on his own ground. He thinks less than he talks, and slower; yet he can see through a brick wall in time (as they say in Bree).'"
I found this part quite interesting and seems to affirm my somewhat shaky theory that folk have intentionally held back on disclosing full info to Frodo to save him from being scared. After Gandalf tells Frodo he would have become a wraith if the Morgul-blade pierced his heart but that he was lucky (or was it fate? this theme emerges again, see underlined text) that he moved and it only pierced his shoulder:
"'Thank goodness I did not realize the horrible danger!' said Frodo faintly. 'I was mortally afraid, of course; but if I had known more, I should not have dared even to move. It is a marvel that I escaped!'
'Yes, fortune or fate have helped you,' said Gandalf, 'not to mention courage.'"
This chapter also seems to be the beginning of Frodo, at least, realising Gandalf is perhaps more powerful than he seems to the hobbits."...even Gandalf, whom he thought he knew so well, were revealed as lords of dignity and power."
Elves being Elves (sorry @Lirimaer and other elfie friends :smooch: )
I would just like to point out another example of Elves being Elves (aka Elves being haughty). To me, this whole exchange makes Lindir appear to have quite a lofty opinion of himself and other Elves although maybe he is just joking.
"'It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals,' said the Elf. [...] 'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different,' laughed Lindir. 'Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.'"
The High Pass
When Gloin speaks to Frodo at the feast, he says:
"if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would long ago have become impossible. They are valiant man and keep open the High Pass and the Ford of Carrock."
This just made me wonder (which is likely addressed later in the text) - why, later on, when the Fellowship are trying to cross the Misty Mountains, could they not have taken the High Pass if it is so well-defended by the Beornings? I understand the need for narrative purposes, but in terms of within-world reasons, was it just that the High Pass was being watched by Saruman or am I getting my movies/books confused? Why couldn't the Beornings have helped them?

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Chapters I & II

I agree with the notes of others here, that Gandalf is jovial and yet troubling. He read's Frodo's memories (aided but Frodo speaking in his sleep) but also seems rather to want to laugh things off than continue discussing the grim days which are to come. If I had to hazard a guess, perhaps it's because Frodo's role in what will come is yet to be determined? And Gandalf is looking, here, to ensure him a full and happy recovery and a pleasant stay in Rivendell until, at least, the Council.

On the topic of Mrs. Beorn and Mrs. Grimbeorn raised by @Lirimaer, I actually have a question here -- are the Beornings all descended from the old Bear himself? I'd always assumed they did, but we also hear Gloin call the people of Dale the "Bardings", so perhaps Tolkien simply means the people of Beorn's realm and not his direct descendants?

Moving on to the Council itself, we do get it pretty clearly laid out that they are gathered there by Chance/Luck/Fate/A Power Beyond Arda, answering one of our hold-over questions. Boromir has even arrived just that morning.
Additionally, there's an interesting note about the Great Powers here, when, before the thought of casting the Ring into the Sea is raised, it is suggested that they might bring the ring OVER the sea, and Elrond remarks that "those who dwell across the sea would not have it." The ring, he says, is bound to Middle-Earth.
What? What is this? I am baffled. Have the Valar reinstituted their non-engagement policy? What do others think of this?

Oh, and to answer those wondering about the Green Stone, it is probably the Elfstone / Elessar, which we will learn about more at the end of this book.
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Many Meetings

This doesn't answer yet the outstanding question of do the adversaries change in each book, but I am noticing a certain pattern between Book I and II.

Book I, Chapter I: A Long-Expected Party. The Ring doesn't quite enter the picture. It's brooding under the surface. There's a 'feast' in Bilbo's honour, many references to The Hobbit, but the Ring isn't put front and center until the next chapter.

Book II, Chapter I: Many Meetings. A similar pattern. The question of the Ring doesn't really enter the picture. Pippin jokes calling Frodo "Lord of the Ring" but is quickly stopped by Gandalf. Pretty much any mention when the Ring is brought up, it's quickly pushed back under the surface. Frodo and Gloin skirt around it in their conversation, there's a moment where Bilbo wants to see it but they again quickly refuse to discuss it and talk about other things. There's even a 'feast,' in Frodo's honour, and we get more references to what's been happening to the characters in The Hobbit, since the death of Smaug and the Battle of Five Armies (aside thought, I forgot how lovely Dale sounds and how much I would want to visit it.)

Book I, Chapter II: The Shadow of the Past. A chapter of lengthy exposition where the question of the Ring gets debated. Gandalf fills in a lot of history and back story. The Ring is made front and center. What to do with it gets decided.

Book II, Chapter II: The Council of Elrond. Definitely follows the same pattern. And I'll be interested to see if and how this pattern continues in Book II.

Some other points standing out in this chapter:

-The mention of Sam wanting to wait on Frodo during the feast, but not here, he is one of the guests of honour at the feast. It's interesting and has me wondering about how Elves view hobbit-society and mortals. As Lindir quips with Bilbo:

'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different,' laughed Lindir. 'Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have different business.'

Interesting point by Lindir, that no doubt to hobbits other hobbits will appear different. And we got a fair bit of how the Hobbiton hobbits percieved the Bucklanders differently and vice versa. But to Elves, Frodo and Sam are not different and Sam is also treated as a guest of honour.

@Mojo brings up Gandalf seeming unusual in this chapter. I agree it feels like he's with-holding some important information for the time being. We now know from chapters 1 and 2 in Book I, he was with-holding his guesses about the Ring until he was absolutely certain it was the One Ring. So what's Gandalf with-holding now, putting on a jovial face, and why?

Overall the entire chapter seems to have a merry "facade." It's like no one wants to bring up the elephant in the room, can't we all just be happy in this moment after everything that happened in Book I? Even if it is a facade, I think it's important to have these moments of relief in every story. I love the insight into certain friendships in this chapter.

-Gloin's reverence towards Bilbo and how it extends to Frodo. Same with Frodo, as he meets Gloin it a moment of humor, almost like how if you meet a celebrity you're fond of and you just don't want to embarrass yourself. "Wait...you're the Gloin, from Bilbo's adventures!?" Gimli hasn't appeared yet, but it has to be fitting that Gloin's son and heir joins Bilbo's heir on this adventure. I'm resisting the urge to quote the entire conversation with Gloin, because from start to finish it was interesting, funny, and foreboding (What happened to Balin, Oin, and Ori? :headshake: )

-Bilbo's friendship with the mysterious 'Dunadan.' Aragorn does have quite a lot of names and titles. Who is the 'real' Aragorn? I discovered the funniest (so far) moment in my re-read:

'Where have you been, my friend? Why weren't you at the feast? The Lady Arwen was there.'

<3 Bilbo so much, a life-long bachelor, trying to play match maker for his friend. :lol:

Edit: simul with @Lailorn and @Androthelm
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Lots of good points all around here.

I had added @Lirimaer's question about the Green stone to the opening post, and Ithink @Androthelm is onto something with the Elfstone. I think Aragorn is displaying a bit of foreshadowing here and seeking to connect himself with the lineage of Earendil and thus the Numenorean Kings, further solidifying his claim to the throne of Gondor.

One of the items we discussed in Book I and it holds true here is the difference between book Aragorn and movie Aragorn. In the movie he is reluctant and hesitant to claim his birthright as the heir of Isildur whereas in the book it is not so much an IF as it is a WHEN.

Really interesting thoughts from @Boromir88 on the parallels between Book I and Book II, which also gets back to the slow build up of action that we discussed at the beginning of Book I. Similarly here, we see the slow escalation of tension and danger.
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@Boromir88's perspective on the similar structure of the openings to Books I and II is interesting. I think what may be happening is this -- Tolkien begins with safe, happy land (the Shire, Rivendell), introduces why it is they must depart to keep it safe (the Ring, the Ring) and how, indirectly, they will only keep it safe by departing (Sauron has heard of the Shire, Rivendell would hold out but not forever). It's his tactic to establish stakes -- because what we really want is for the characters to return safely to that quiet place, and dwell there forevermore.

It is also interesting Boromir to see the apparent lack of class awareness among the elves, especially since we know from other texts that hierarchies of power and lineages / heritages are so important to them, too.

@Mojo yes, I do think it's interesting what Aragorn is trying to do. I'll white it out, since it contains stuff from the later books. [Aragorn will eventually rule, of course, as "King Elessar", King Elfstone, but he'll only take that royal name because he possesses the Elfstone, which Galadriel gives him when the Fellowship departs Lothlorien. Yet here we see him encouraging Bilbo to reference the other (original? lost? potentially the same but there's some different stories) Elfstone in his poem about Earendil, while ALSO remarking that Bilbo getting a little cheeky, writing about the Mariner in the House of Elrond. So he clearly wants the blame to fall on Bilbo for the poem, while also bringing to mind for the listeners the presence of the green stone in history. maybe he's just bringing up another famous Elf-Man relationship, to justify his own, but maybe...
Gandalf, according to one of the stories--that the Elfstone was returned to Middle-Earth after Earendil departed with it, carried by Olorin--gave the Elessar to Galadriel, along with a prophecy that she would only hold it for a short time, until another -- also named Elessar -- came into its possession. She gives it to Aragorn, Aragorn takes the name -- and a prophecy is fulfilled. So, maybe what Aragorn is doing is nudging things along -- he has to believe he will be the returning king, he needs a sign of Galadriel's approval for him to wed Arwen, since Galadriel is the living matriarch of Arwen's mother's line, so he raises the point of the Elfstone to remind Elrond of its importance, if perhaps Gandalf has alerted him that there's a present waiting should he pass Lothlorien-way
]

EDIT: Gosh, that was more white-block than I expected to post. Sorry everyone!
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Lailorn wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:58 pm Elves being Elves (sorry @Lirimaer and other elfie friends :smooch: )
I would just like to point out another example of Elves being Elves (aka Elves being haughty). To me, this whole exchange makes Lindir appear to have quite a lofty opinion of himself and other Elves although maybe he is just joking.
"'It is not easy for us to tell the difference between two mortals,' said the Elf. [...] 'Maybe. To sheep other sheep no doubt appear different,' laughed Lindir. 'Or to shepherds. But Mortals have not been our study. We have other business.'"
Nah, I think that's fair. I don't think Lindir is joking. Elves in general are just not interested in mortals unless it directly concerns themselves, and have little time for others (unless they make an effort to speak the Elven tongue, as far as I can tell). Elrond, being of the Half-Elven, is naturally interested in the heritage of Men, and his house is very welcoming to all races who go there in peace - but he's an aberration. It does make all those 'friendly' Elves a bit odd in RP though - clearly we should be more casually rude to mortals! :lol:
Mojo wrote: Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:26 pm I had added @Lirimaer's question about the Green stone to the opening post, and I think @Androthelm is onto something with the Elfstone. I think Aragorn is displaying a bit of foreshadowing here and seeking to connect himself with the lineage of Earendil and thus the Numenorean Kings, further solidifying his claim to the throne of Gondor.
We also saw Glorfindel leave a green stone on the bridge as a token. I thought it might be just an Elvish thing at the time, or maybe a Glorfindel thing, but perhaps it was a message solely for Aragorn - "We're out looking for you!"
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There was a great question raised by @Androthelm about the Beornings.

The Tolkien Gateway site shares a similar confusion on this, leaving their lineage open.
Tolkien Gateway wrote:After the Battle of Five Armies and the decimation of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, many Northmen gathered around Beorn who became a great chief. It is possible that the Beornings became known as a people through being descendants of Beorn.
Interestingly, the Tolkien Gateway site notes "the Fellowship of the Ring bypassed the High Pass because the eastern side of the Misty Mountains had become too dangerous." Spoiler {later on, when Frodo puts on the Ring on Amon Hen, he sees the land of the Beornings is aflame, which lends credence to this idea that this notion that the land East of the Misty Mountains was too dangerous for the Fellowship.}
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*blinks* how did we three manage to post in such a short span of time earlier? Must have been on the same wavelength...

@Boromir88 I found your thoughts comparing the first two chapters of each book so interesting especially in light of my own contrasting each of the two books as a whole.

Aragorn + the green stone - hmm, seems pretty sneaky of Aragorn now that you all mention that. More fodder for my opinion that he, like Lindir, has lofty opinions of himself (someone's been hanging out with elves too much...). He reminds me a little of Simba - "I Just Can't Wait to be King!" though obviously that's an oversimplification and sort of a joke.

I mentioned it in the earlier thread that book-Aragorn is not my favourite and I guess its because he doesn't ever seem to miss a chance to mention that he is the Heir of Isildur, destined to become King. But to his credit, after so many generations of having no king, maybe he has to be like that (among other deeds he does later on) in order to be able to justify taking the crown and reuniting the kingdom. And maybe part of it is also Elrond pressuring him to become King to marry Arwen. That's quite the demand from a future father-in-law.

@Lirimaer - Feel free to practice your haughtiness toward any one of my mortal characters anytime. :winkkiss:

@Mojo - AH. I completely forgot about that. Thank you!

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Alright, it's Thursday already (wow time flies) so let's get to it with the Council of Elrond. I'll admit when I was younger this was one of my least favorite chapters because it was so dense and there was so much to unpack, but at the same time it was mostly just talking without much action. Now, this time around, I have been looking forward to this chapter because of this conversation and some of the unanswered questions that we have floating out there.

We get some great build-up in this chapter. Interestingly, Boromir is introduced as "a man from the South" not "a Man of Gondor" or "the son of the Steward of Gondor." Also, I think it's noteworthy that Boromir arrived on the morning of the Council.

Also interesting how Tolkien uses Frodo's "voice" to tell the story of the Council and summarizes certain things like
Council of Elrond wrote:Not all that was spoken and debated in the Council need now be told. Much was said of events in the world outside, especially in the South, and in the wide lands east of the Mountains. Of these things Frodo had already heard many rumours;
But the items that are of interest to Frodo get more time on the page. Gloin's tale of the attempt to retake Moria (which also provides a bit of foreshadowing and laying the groundwork for a future chapter in this Book). Gloin's tale then shifts from not hearing word from Moria for 30 years to the messenger from Mordor that came to Dain at the Lonely Mountain. It doesn't say for certain whether this was a Ringwraith or some other fell creature, but the description of "his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered" is certainly reminiscent of the Nazgul (and later the Mouth of Sauron). I think it is fair to say this was not an Orc, but also it is not certain whether it was a Nazgul.

Also, at that point (approximately a year before the Council) it seems that Sauron had captured Gollum and knew (or had a strong guess) that Bilbo in fact had the Ring, but he did not know the location of where Hobbits lived.
Find only news of the thief, whether he still lives and where, and you shall have great reward and lasting friendship from the Lord.
Though in typical Tolkien fashion, nothing happens quickly. The first messenger came nearly a year before the Council, and another has come since. But only the threat of the third messenger coming before the end of the year prompts Dain to send Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell to warn Bilbo and seek advice. One may have thought it would've been worth warning Bilbo after the first messenger, but nevertheless, here we are, as the Dwarves arrival in Rivendell is fortunately-timed to coincide with the Council.

And now the pieces of the story start to come together. Elrond gives the account of the Forging of the Rings and the Battle of the Last Alliance when Isildur cut the Ring from Sauron's hand. This also connects nicely with the tidbit of history we got with the Gil-Galad song earlier in Book I. Tolkien does a great job with "expanding the universe." He doesn't dump us into the wide world quickly, but slowly expands the knowledge of the reader over time. He drops the hint of Gil-Galad and a few historical tidbits, then gives us the full story later so that we know how it connects with the current tale. This is great structural story-telling.

And then we get the interlude from Boromir who tells of the fall of Osgiliath where "in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away. We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before. Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled." This seems to be the beginning of us piecing together the timeline of the Nazgul. That in June they issued from Minas Morgul and led the attack on Osgiliath, opening the way for them to seek out the Ring throughout the rest of Middle-Earth.

I'll leave it at this for now, for I have already made a long post, and I'll come back later to cover Gandalf's tale, because it is packed full of information.
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@Mojo an odd thought -- perhaps Dain didn't immediately warn Bilbo because, while he certainly knew him as one of the hero's of Thorin's company... the remarkable Mr. Baggins was a Burglar, after all, and did steal the Arkenstone for a time. Now, we as readers understand that -- but especially with the number of dwarves who knew Bilbo personally dwindling, it's interesting to wonder if Dain hesitates because... well, the idea that the Hobbit might have stolen something is not actually that out of the question.
Plus, we know that Balin had departed -- and he was closest to Bilbo, so close that Bilbo remarks that he doesn't care to see the Mountain a third time now that Balin is gone. Maybe it took pressure from other dwarves who had known Bilbo (pressure like the pressure from Balin to go to Moria) to even send the warning west.
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The depth of Tolkien's creation never ceases to amaze me. Two people can read the same text, take away something different from it, and both of them are 'correct.' Fantastic. I love it, not even a quarter of the way through and learned so much how Books I and II are similar and different.

And yet another interesting observation, Dain's delay in sending Gloin and Gimli to Rivendell. Is it fate that caused the delay so their arrival would coincide with the same time as the others? Perhaps. But I think @Androthelm is another fascinating interpretation. It could very well have been Gloin that pressured Dain to send him and attempt to warn Bilbo. :thumbs:
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Gandalf's account answers a whole bunch of our carry-over questions from Book I, so I'm very happy we get this told in full and not summarized.

Gandalf gives those of us interested in the luck vs fate topic a doozie of a quote: "the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was." (my emphasis). This is the second time we have seen Gandalf outwardly ponder this question. If it was just by good fortune that Bilbo found the Ring or if there was "some other power at work besides the will of evil" (to go back to the Shadow of the Past discussion on the Ring).

I believe we had some discussion about Gollum being intentionally set free so that the servants of Sauron could track him in the hopes of finding where "The Shire" was located. Gandalf's account gives credence to that notion as well, that Aragorn found Gollum leaving Mordor heading northwards. Additionally, Legolas' notion that Gollum worked with spies of the Enemy to be set free also gives indication that Gollum was being watched and that Sauron wanted him to be free.

We had posed the question: "What news caused Gandalf to leave the Shire (and the Ring) in such a rush?"
'At the end of June I was in the Shire, but a cloud of anxiety was on my mind, and I rode to the southern borders of the little land; for I had a foreboding of some danger, still hidden from me but drawing near. There messages reached me telling me of war and defeat in Gondor, and when I heard of the Black Shadow a chill smote my heart.
So Gandalf hears news of the attack on Osgiliath that Boromir had mentioned previously. And the news of the "Black Shadow" (Ringwraiths) causes Gandalf to seek out more information, since the travelers he talks to are too afraid to speak much of it. Then he comes across Radagast sitting by the side of the road. And here, two of our questions become bound together, for a short time:
"The enemy must have some great need or purpose," said Radagast; "but what it is that makes him look to these distant and desolate parts, I cannot guess."
` "What do you mean? " said I.
` "I have been told that wherever they go the Riders ask for news of a land called Shire."
' "The Shire," I said; but my heart sank. For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. A great king and sorcerer he was of old, and now he wields a deadly fear. "Who told you, and who sent you? " I asked.
' "Saruman the White," answered Radagast. "And he told me to say that if you feel the need, he will help; but you must seek his aid at once, or it will be too late."
So for Gandalf's timeline, he has a sense of foreboding and goes to seek out news. He hears the tale of the fall of Osgiliath and of the Black Shadow. Seeking confirmation that it is the Nazgul, he looks for more travelers on the road and comes across Radagast. The Brown wizard confirms Gandalf's suspicion but also tells him that he needs to seek out Saruman immediately (which we later find is a trap laid by the White wizard to ensnare Gandalf). So Gandalf left a note with Butterbur in Bree to tell Frodo to leave immediately in June, but the letter was never delivered, leaving Frodo wondering where Gandalf had gone.

Gandalf's encounter with Saruman is so packed full of great quotes and information I don't want to completely rehash everything here, but something that did stand out to me was the way in which Saruman become corrupted to the Ring - it was his desire to bring about order. I have some more detailed thoughts on this, but there is some great information in Morgoth's Ring about how Sauron (originally Mairon, maia of Aule) was brought to evil through an obsession with bringing order and coordination out of the chaos of the world. Sauron's downfall was wanting to bring all things of the world into a machine-like order. Some of this language is reflected in Saruman's speech to Gandalf, that they can bring Order and Direction to the world.

Finally, after Gwaihir takes Gandalf to freedom in Rohan ("I was sent to bear tidings not burdens" is a great quote to throw out to those who bring up the "Why didn't the Eagles carry the Ring to Mount Doom?" crowd), Gandalf gives a retelling of his chase of the Nazgul and how the Nine distributed themselves, giving us a fairly clear picture of their distribution (and answering one of our remaining questions):
They had divided their forces, I learned: some remained on the eastern borders, not far from the Greenway. and some invaded the Shire from the south.
[...]
I rode on the trail of the Riders. It was hard to follow, for it went many ways, and I was at a loss. But it seemed to me that one or two had ridden towards Bree; and that way I went
[...]
only of two had there yet been any news in Bree, it seemed. But in the night we heard more. Five at least came from the west, and they threw down the gates and passed through Bree like a howling wind
[...]
it seems clear to me that this is what happened. Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree, while two rode ahead
through the village, and four more invaded the Shire. But when these were foiled in Bree and at Crickhollow, they returned to their Captain with tidings, and so left the Road unguarded for a while, except by their spies. The Captain then sent some eastward straight across country, and he himself with the rest rode along the Road in great wrath.
[...]
It was impossible to find you, Frodo, in the wilderness, and it would have been folly to try with all the Nine at my heels. So I had to trust to Aragorn. But I hoped to draw some of them off, and yet reach Rivendell ahead of you and send out help. Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a little, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.
Gandalf's account here seems the best summary of the Riders' movements that we will get. They divided themselves. All Nine attacked Gandalf at Weathertop and four chased him Northwards through the Ettenmoors. This also accounts for the four that came from Frodo's left (the northward side of the road) at the end of the Flight to the Ford. The remaining five kept watch near Weathertop and were the ones who attacked Frodo, including the Witchking.
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@Mojo thanks for your excellent writeup! One quick thing which jumps out at me --

Gandalf hears "of war and defeat in Gondor" -- which, I suppose, may reflect the loss of Osgiliath but, in my reading, have always sounded like lies, twisting and amplifying a loss (Osgiliath) into a total defeat (of all Gondor) in much the same way that Sauron's offer to buy Rohirric steeds is twisted until those in Eriador hear rumors that Theoden pays a tribute of horses to Mordor. No hard evidence for my reading, I guess, but just something I'd noticed.
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Oh, and another note -- when Gandalf references Radagast, he mentions only that he "at one time dwelt at Rhosgobel." What (and this may be a question to add to the list, though I'm not sure we ever get an answer for it) has driven him out? Is Mirkwood growing dark again?
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I think there is a twofold answer to @Androthelm's question about Radagast's dwelling.

First - yes, Mirkwood certainly had grown darker. And after the Necromancer/Sauron was driven out of Dol Guldur there may have been less of a need for the Wizards to keep a constant vigilance on Mirkwood, since they knew now that Sauron their great enemy had returned to Mordor.

Secondly - in Appendix B of ROTK there is some reference to Radagast aiding Saruman's search of the Gladden Fields for the One Ring. This, coupled with Saruman sending Radagast to deliver a message to Gandalf gives some credence to the notion of him leaving Rhosgobel and likely dwelling closer to Isengard.
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Which then, @Mojo, lends additional weight to Gandalf's brief concern that Radagast might have been corrupted by Saruman -- although that does turn out to not be the case. I wonder where he goes after delivering Gandalf's message? We don't really see him again, as we might expect perhaps in the breaking of Isengard?
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This is a great question. I think, just based on some contextual evidence, he went about rousing his animal friends to spy out news of the land. It does not seem like a big leap to think that he may have had some connection with the Eagles, since it is Gwaihir that eventually comes to Isengard bringing news.

Some concluding thoughts on the Council of Elrond:

I do quite enjoy the long debate we are given about what to do with the Ring. Even though, for those of us reading the book, the path may have seemed clear from the time Frodo decided to leave the Shire, it is a nice interlude for Tolkien to give us a discourse on the alternative options. It is almost as if Tolkien set up this part of the conversation to say "here is why the Quest had to go the way it did, and why none of the other options available were viable."

I always thought it was interesting how much the Council debated Bombadil. Among the viable options for "what to do with the Ring" it seems the Bombadil Option is discussed second-most, only behind "take the Ring to Mordor."

Also, this whole chapter has provided some great insight into Boromir's character. He is chiefly concerned with Gondor and Minas Tirith. This first shows when he interprets the riddle in the dream to mean that the doom of Minas Tirith is at hand, not "doom" in the more general sense. In the discussion of the Ring, Boromir once again focuses on good it could do for Minas Tirith, ignoring some of the big-picture discussions that have just happened moments before.

Actually, it seems like "listening" is somewhat of a struggle for the group as a whole. Gloin has to be re-told about the Elven Rings right after Boromir has to be reminded of the dangers of wielding the Ring.

Interesting juxtaposition of these passages, I think:
Council of Elrond wrote:The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
`I will take the Ring,' he said, `though I do not know the way.'
From The Silmarillion:
Of the Third Age and the Rings of Power wrote:For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir took on himself the burden, and alone with his servant he passed through peril and darkness and came at last in Sauron's despite even to Mount Doom; and there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring of Power, and so at last it was unmade and its evil consumed.
Valaquenta wrote:But of Olórin that tale does not speak; for though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts.
I often wondered if it was really Frodo's own initiative to step forward at that moment or if it was some "prompting" or "urging" that Gandalf pushed him towards. We talked a little about this in the Shadow of the Past chapter as well. I think this is another point in favor of @Boromir88's notion of the "mirroring" of the chapters, that you have a discussion about the Ring and then Frodo deciding to take on the burden of the quest.
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Interesting point there @Mojo about Gandalf's bidding--adding, once again, some shades of Gray to our Gray-clad friend. Still, I've always interpreted the sudden other power as, well, Eru nudging things -- a sign that Frodo is merely another tool in the bringing of good to Arda, with the Silmarillion reference to Mithrandir's bidding being either a reference to his guidance in Shadow of the Past or later hearsay increasing the involvement of the Wise in this key moment.
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I had quite a busy week, but was able to read The Council of Elrond yesterday and will be able to catch up this week on Chapters 3,4,5.

There is a lot of history to unpack in this chapter, and it's pretty much all dialogue. This is a nightmare for film-makers (as I recall PJ talking about) and I think he did well to stick to the essential question that is debated and answered "what to do about the Ring?"

@Androthelm good pick up about Radagast possibly no longer dwelling in Rhosgobel. And I had no idea Radagast assisted Saruman in searching the Gladden Fields. Thanks @Mojo !

What's personally funny to me is how I've mentioned elsewhere that Bilbo's become my favorite character. Boromir was my favorite in youth, wanting to read about battles and great generals. Now it's Bilbo who is far more relatable and it's funny to me that these two just clearly do not get along in this chapter. :lol: The 'doubt' in Boromir's eyes with Aragorn, Bilbo picking up on it and defending his friend.

This is probably better as a different topic, but I'll just mention it here as something to keep in the back of my head. But about chance/fate/providence, I've always wondered if Boromir was meant to come to Rivendell in place of Faramir? What was Tolkien hinting at by Boromir revealing Faramir had the dream often, but it was Boromir who put himself 'forward' to go?

We often talk about someone's "good" fortune/chance, Bilbo's luck is referred to frequently in The Hobbit. What about "bad" luck, though? I mean, was Boromir supposed to come to Rivendell? He lost his horse and got lost in the wilderness. Took him over 100 days to get to Rivendell, at some point maybe Boromir should have read the signs? :lol: I'm not quite sure if this is an instance of luck/chance but it's interesting to think about. Tolkien mentions in Letters believing that someone can 'change their luck' with their choices (Frodo as an example). I wonder if Boromir 'changed his luck,' in the negative ('bad luck') by going to Rivendell when it should have been Faramir?
Last edited by Boromir88 on Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Honestly, the Council of Elrond probably could've been its own week's worth of discussion here, so if people have follow-up comments, feel free to post them even though we've moved on to another set of chapters.

The Ring Goes South is almost two separate chapters in one. The first is the segment on the choosing of the Fellowship and the determining of which route to take. The second is the beginning of the journey up through the attempted passage of Caradhras. Since the first portion of this is somewhat a compendium to the Council of Elrond, I'll start by discussing it and we can leave the journey South for a future post.

It is interesting that even though the Council took place on October 25, they do not depart from Rivendell for two full months, until December 25. Just like we asked with Gandalf leaving the Shire and whether or not he could have escorted Frodo to Rivendell then checked on the news from the South, it may be worth wondering if the Fellowship had set out sooner if they would have been able to pass Caradhras. That said, given how close the servants of the Enemy came to Rivendell in the Flight to the Ford and the fact that Sauron would have known where the Ring was, it did make sense to spy out the lands and find what dangers were abroad before sending forth the Ring.

We do get another reference to Radagast here too, which is interesting:
The hobbits had been nearly two months in the House of Elrond, and November had gone by with the last shreds of autumn, and December was passing, when the scouts began to return. Some had gone north beyond the springs of the Hoarwell into the Ettenmoors; and others had gone west, and with the help of Aragorn and the Rangers had searched the lands far down the Greyflood, as far as Tharbad, where the old North Road crossed the river by a ruined town. Many had gone east and south; and some of these had crossed the Mountains and entered Mirkwood, while others had climbed the pass at the source of the Gladden River, and had come down into Wilderland and over the Gladden Fields and so at length had reached the old home of Radagast at Rhosgobel. Radagast was not there; and they had returned over the high pass that was called the Dimrill Stair. The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode into a strange country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to Elrond.
(my emphasis)

One of the questions we had asked earlier was in regards to the formation of the Fellowship. Honestly, if PJ had made movie-Elrond say "`The Company of the Ring shall be Nine; and the Nine Walkers shall be set against the Nine Riders that are evil." it probably would've been eyeroll city. (As it was, dubbing them "The Fellowship of the Ring" was bad enough). But here, I almost glossed over it as more important things came next - the naming of the companions. It is not a group volunteeer effort like in the movie (which was more dramatic) but rather companions are appointed by Elrond.

Frodo chooses Sam and Elrond appoints Gandalf. One of the secondary determinations of the Council seems to be the decision to reforge Narsil, so Aragorn and Boromir are included as their intent is to go to Minas Tirith, which follows a similar path southwards. It is not mentioned here, but it is cool that Gloin accompanied Bilbo and now his son Gimli comes with Bilbo's heir Frodo. I believe we touched on this before as well.

Elrond and Gandalf's discussion over the last two spots in the Fellowship is always fascinating to me. If Merry and Pippin had been sent back to the Shire, could they have been successful in preventing some of the evils that came about? Or were they more successful during the Scouring of the Shire because of the confidence that they had gained on their journeys? Would the Fellowship have been more successful if other companions (say, Glorfindel) had joined them rather than Merry and Pippin? It's hard to say (though either would make for a fascinating Debate topic at some point).
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@Mojo good notes on the Ring going south. Additionally -- and I can't remember if it was in this thread or the last read-through thread or an unrelated place on the Forum, we do get an answer to the question "Why doesn't the Fellowship take the High Pass, if the Beornings keep it open?"

At the Ford of Bruinen they left the Road and turning southwards went on by narrow paths among the folded lands. Their purpose was to hold this course west of the Mountains for many miles and days. The country was much rougher and more barren than in the green vale of the Great River in Wilderland on tthe other side of the range [the parallel course, across the Misty Mountains], and their goal would be slow; but they hoped in this way to escape the notice of unfriendly eyes. The spies of Sauron had hitherto seldom been seen in this empty country, and the paths were little known except to the people of Rivendell.


Emphasis mine. So it seems the reason they avoid the High Pass is the reason they don't simply ride the Eagles over the Morannon, or why Elrond doesn't send them an army, or why the Grey Company doesn't come with them to begin. Secrecy, secrecy, secrecy -- more important than might at arms.
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Sorry I’m late feel free to ignore me.

Council of Elrond
I also agree that l loved getting to reading this through Frodo’s eyes and getting to skip over some of the bits of the council. When I was younger, I did not love this chapter (I think lack of hobbit “screentime” had something to do with it) but I found it a lot more interesting this time around!

I just about laughed when Bilbo stepped forward and basically said “Okay, Elrond - I get the hint! I’ll take the ring to Mordor.”
But I actually wonder if this is 100% Bilbo speaking or if it is Bilbo under the influence of the Ring volunteering for this task.
And if the Ring is pulling Bilbo to volunteer and Gandalf is nudging Frodo to do it - this is an example of the "good vs. evil" forces at play.

Only two other points -
1. Of war in Gondor, Gandalf says he “found nothing save a few fugitives from the South; yet it seemed to me that on them sat a fear of which they would not speak.”
Are these the Southerners we were wondering about in the previous thread while the hobbits were in B ree? (Quote for reference: "There was trouble away in the South, and it seemed that the Men who had come up the Greenway were on the move, looking for lands where they could find some peace." (Ch. 9)) In which case they may be Men of Gondor after all.

2. Of Shadowfax, Gandalf says, “And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world.”
We know Shadowfax is one of the mearas, but does I wonder a few things about this. Does “morning of the world” mean the beginning of the world or does it mean when the sun finally rose? Is there anything to suggest Shadowfax is descended from Nahar?

@Boromir88 - I just love the shifting perspectives of one person’s experience reading this book at different times in life. I think I understand Boromir better and criticize him a lot less this time around. The man cares about Gondor a lot and he rode all the way to Rivendell to try to help his country. I feel like I can’t entirely blame him for falling under the Ring’s influence.

Edited to add: As far as Boromir going instead of Faramir and chance/fate factor, I see it as Boromir being the eldest and just seeing it as his responsibility. But maybe there was a bit of fate involved. This begs the very hypothetical question - how would things have been different had Faramir gone in Boromir's place?

@Androthelm - I asked about the High Pass. That does now make sense - even with the Beornings doing a good job guarding the pass, they can't really do much about hidden spies. I presume these are spies of an animal nature - is that implied at all in the surrounding text? (have not got there yet)

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This post will combine some thoughts from chapters 2 and 3 because the beginning of The Ring Goes South they're still in Rivendell and I actually forgot it's only a 'company' of Frodo and Sam at the end of The Council of Elrond.

I think the comparisons between Books I and II continue. At the end of Shadow of the Past it's just Frodo and Sam agreed and confirmed the Ring must end up in Rivendell. Three is Company Pippin is introduced. So 2 became 3, even though we didn't know about the conspiracy yet and that Pippin would join.

At the end of Council of Elrond it's decided the Ring must go to Mordor, but it's only confirmed to be Frodo and Sam at this point. The Ring Goes South it's decided 9 will set out to counter the '9 Black Riders.' To go to @Lailorn 's point, there is a similar pattern but also Tolkien's expanding his world. Book I, 2 became 3 and then 4. Book II, 2 became 9.

Also I'm curious thinking about the 'main' adversary of the Fellowship. As previously discussed the Ringwraiths were Book I's adversary and they grew in terror/power as the chapter went on. It's confirmed in The Ring Goes South, that while Gandalf assures they're not rid of the Ringwraiths that easily, for the time being they won't threaten to the company. There will be some other threat and I'm very curious to continue reading and finding out.

I remembered Elrond considering members of his house as the other companions and wanting Merry and Pippin to serve as messengers back to the Shire. But I must admit I completely forgot Glorfindel was specifically named (makes sense considering now I remember the endless topics of why didn't Glorfindel go? :facepalm:) and Gandalf's "surprising" defense of Pippin and Merry going. It's interesting that it's mentioned Elrond would play a significant role in determining the companions, but it seems to me he really only chose the number and was not much of a factor in choosing who the companions would be.

-Frodo and Sam decided on their own.
-Aragorn and Boromir were heading to Minas Tirith, but their path would be similar for many miles.
-Before it was official Gandalf told Frodo he probably would go.
-It seems likely he determined on Legolas and Gimli to "represent the other Free Peoples of the World: Elves, dwarves and Men" but they also were 'willing to go to the passes of the Mountains, and maybe beyond.'
-He wanted to send 2 members of his house, but was persuaded by Gandalf to make the final 2 Merry and Pippin.

So, I think the major hand in the formation of the fellowship has to be Fate. Either Bilbo or Gandalf say Elrond would have a major say in the formation, but it doesn't appear to turn out that way, as he conceded to Merry and Pippin going. This brings up a whole host of questions of how the story might have turned out differently if Elrond got 'his way?' And would Merry and Pippin have been able to stop the Scouring from happening if they didn't go on their own journeys of growth? It's an interesting contrast to Gandalf's point that 'even the very wise cannot see all ends.' While Elrond is hinting at trouble coming to the Shire, as something he foresees and has a plan for Merry and Pippin to prevent it, he admits he cannot foresee everything:

'Then I cannot help you much, not even with counsel,' said Elrond. 'I can foresee very little of your road; and how your task is to be achieved I do not know. The Shadow has crept now to the feet of the Mountains, and draws nigh even to the borders of the Grey-flood; and under the Shadow all is dark to me.'

@Lailorn good points about Boromir being the eldest brother and seeing it as his responsibility. There is probably a type of traditional thought Tolkien is referencing when Boromir points out he came because he was the older brother. He sort of sticks out as the member that doesn't quite fit. But while he stands out as someone who is often opposed to the path the Fellowship takes, his strength is very much needed for the company to survive Caradhras, Moria and the Anduin.
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@Lailorn, good catch on Gandalf potentially mentioning the same Southerners. It seems there are refugees coming north and west from human-places for sure, and among them The Enemy had hidden spies (as we saw in Bree). Which makes me ask--Which Enemy? Does Bill Ferny work for Saruman, or Sauron?

As far as the Beornings go, I think another note is that we've actually heard before from Gandalf about how troubling it is to follow the Anduin south from Beorn's homestead to the southernmost edge of Mirkwood--It happens in The Hobbit, when Bilbo suggests they might just go around Mirkwood. Unfortunately I don't have a copy to-hand, but I'll try and find it when I can.

To answer your question about Shadowfax / the Mearas generally -- I think we eventually do get some vague reference to them being descended from Nahar. The Rohirrim hold Oromë in great regard (although they call him Béma).

@Boromir88 there is certainly a lot to be drawn out of the formation of the Fellowship, especially when it comes to Fate and Boromir's recent arrival / Aragorn finally deciding to take his crown, meaning he can tag along with them. I do always wonder... What was Gandalf's plan, (to which he alludes later in the reading for this week). Would he have accompanied Frodo and Sam into Mordor, if he could have?
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I'm going to attempt to be concise, there's a lot going on in these chapters that's interesting to me.

The Ring Goes South

-I just realized/remembered Bilbo gives his other possessions from his adventure (mithril and sting) to Frodo. I like what it symbolizes to me. Bilbo created this big event to give away pretty much all his possessions as he tells Gandalf to make it easier to leave the Ring behind for Frodo. He's taken Sting and his mithril coat to Rivendell and I get the sense that he hasn't quite 'let go' of the Ring yet either. His offer to finish the job at the Council of Elrond is not surprising but I have to think there's still the Ring's influence on him. It's not until he gifts all his possessions from his adventure where it feels like Bilbo has closure. I love Frodo's comment about how he looks silly in the mithril coat and Bilbo telling him not to worry he felt the same too at first. :grin:

-Elrond and Gimli's back and forth about oaths. Always was a great moment for me and something that gets returned to later when Gimli leaves Lothlorien.

-The description of when they're staying in Hollin is amazing. The sound and feel, Gandalf saying that it takes a while for a land to forget when Elves lived there, which evokes powers residing in a land. Sort of like the hobbits using trees for shade/protection and then they get ensnared by Old Man Willow's trap. The calm feeling and relief of lingering in Hollin, but then they run into Caradhras, which is a powerful land object that Gimli states doesn't like elves or dwarves. The final sentence of the chapter is really depressing, but very good: 'Caradhras had defeated them.'

-Boromir's resourcefulness from growing under the shadow of the White Mountains and telling them to bring wood if they have to go through mountain passes comes in handy! Then his strength (with Aragorn) to force a path through the snow so they can escape. Pippin marvels at his strength. And so far Legolas is really annoying me and I've decided he's my least favorite of the Fellowship (up to this point).

Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. 'The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow an Elf.'

I'd be flaming. :rage: :grin:
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@Androthelm - oh I always thought Bill Ferny worked for Saruman, but I might be totally wrong. Great point about whether he serves Sauron or Saruman.

@Boromir88 - I am really enjoying your insightful comparisons about the Book 1 and II. Also found your "Fellowship breakdown" interesting. While reading that section, I was surprised it didn't take much convincing at all for Elrond to agree to have Merry and Pippin go. I think you're right about Fate.

While its a good thought to send them back to the Shire, Merry and Pippin end up doing some pretty important stuff down the road. If 2 other companions had gone, its likely the events they influenced would have turned out differently. (I would name their most important deeds the Last March of the Ents, defeating the Witch-King and saving Faramir. All kind of a big deal.)

Androthelm wrote: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:44 pm To answer your question about Shadowfax / the Mearas generally -- I think we eventually do get some vague reference to them being descended from Nahar. The Rohirrim hold Oromë in great regard (although they call him Béma).
I'll be keeping my eye out for this tidbit, but feel free to highlight it for me if you remember.
-----
Also trying to keep my thoughts concise.

The Ring Goes South
Happy the hobbits are back. Loved the moment when Bilbo scolded Frodo for waiting until his birthday to leave and give Bag End to the Sackville-Bagginses.

This moment tugged at my heart: “Aragorn sat with his head bowed to his knees; only Elrond knew fully what this hour meant to him.” He's leaving Arwen, going to war and trying to earn his crown. What a moment in his life.

This reminded me of your question, @Androthelm - while I think Gandalf would like to go with Frodo and Sam to the end, I’m not sure he really could have. After he lights the fire on Caradhras, he says “I have written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of the Anduin.” I think entering Mordor secretly would be very difficult with Gandalf.

Re: Legolas @Boromir88 - you and me both! :lol: I guess he was useful in letting them know the snow bank was smaller eventually though.

A Journey in the Dark
Even though I know what happens, this chapter and the next one pulled me in so much to the feeling of fear, dread and darkness. The atmosphere of Moria really permeates everything and it’s a testament to Tolkien as a writer.

The scene where Pippin drops the stone down the well read similarly to me as when he looks into the Palantir. I think we can agree that Pippin is indeed a very curious hobbit.

The Bridge of Khazad-Dum
Shout out to Sam for killing an orc. I think that must be his first victory in battle, yes?

I want to also mention they walked for eight hours one day and it was mostly upstairs. And in the dark. That just sounds exhausting.

These two sentences really stuck out to me and in my edition (I assume they are all formatted the same?), each sentence gets its very own paragraph for emphasis. It was very effective and painted a vivid image in my mind.
“From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.
Glamdring glittered white in answer.”
I have one question I think is stupid but I can’t remember - does anyone know when/why Gandalf went to Moria before?
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@Boromir88 I fully agree on the symbolic significance of Bilbo giving his adventuring things to Frodo, although I've never quite understood why he asks him to keep the mithril coat a secret. Is it merely because he worries for the greed of those who Frodo meets (Frodo suspects he knew the true value)?

As a side note, I think we get some interesting indirect characterization of THORIN when we hear about how the mithril was a "kingly" gift. He really was open-handed -- until the moment Bilbo came out of his favor.

Additionally, you've left out perhaps my favorite part of the exchange about Hollin -- when Legolas remarks that only the ruins of what the Noldor built remember them, and not the grasses or the trees. Heartbreaking, that, but also a fair critique of them as a people.

@Lailorn I love the quote about Elrond alone knowing what's going on in Aragorn's head. There is so much happening in the background -- especially when it comes to that plot in particular. I hardly blame PJ for wanting to make it more obvious (at the expense of my boy Glorfindel though :cry:)

And, yes, the distances they cross are massive! All they're doing is hiking, practically all day (or night, while they're in the open country) every day!


As to why Gandalf went to Moria, I believe that would be when he was on the trail of Thrain? I'm not sure, though -- if someone has a better answer please, feel free to correct me.
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On the question of Bill Ferny, I think Bill Ferny serves primarily himself. Let's not forget that Sauron and his messengers initial tactic with the Dwarves was not the threat of destruction or war but bribery. Based on Gloin's tale at the Council of Elrond, Sauron's messengers offered "friendship" and many gifts including Rings. Given how Bill Ferny found a way to profit from the half-starved Pony, I have no doubt he easily would have been swayed by the messengers of Sauron offering him rewards in return for information. It seems likely he would've done the same for Saruman, if he thought it would be profitable.

I agree with @Boromir88's thoughts on Tolkien's wonderful description of a mostly empty countryside (Hollin). The last time I read through the books I was really struck by how many different ways Tolkien is able to describe the terrain and scenery. It is really wonderful to see, for example, how many different ways he can describe a hill.

On Caradhras, I started a topic in the Lore forum in the early days of the New Plaza (which was only like 3 months ago, hard to believe!) about whether the "evil spirit" in Caradhras was any influence either direct or indirect from the Balrog. We have seen evil "willpower" be able to be passed from one Ainur to an inanimate object previously (Sauron and the Ring, most notably), so I think it may have been possible that some of the Balrog's fell spirit seeped into the Mountain. I could also be totally off base here, but feel free to jump over to the other thread if this topic interests you.

The Journey in the Dark Chapter is one of my favorites. Not much happens from an "action" standpoint, but the foreboding fear that they could be attacked at any minute just permeates the whole chapter. It is excellent writing. I remember the first time I read it I was a teenager on vacation at the beach and it was night time with a massive rain and thunder storm passing over the house. That might be the most frightened I've ever been reading anything!
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@Androthelm I also wondered why Bilbo seemed rather insistent that Frodo keep the mithril coat a secret. It could be a light-hearted jest, which wouldn't be out of character for Bilbo, but it also sounds like Frodo's making a serious promise. I'm almost to the part in the reread where Frodo breaks his promise and if I recall correctly reveals to the Fellowship the mithril coat after the spear strike from the orc captain in Moria. But there is this in A Journey in the Dark:

'Yes,' said Gandalf 'I never told him, but its worth was greater than the value of the whole Shire and everything in it.'

Frodo said nothing, but he put his hand under his tunic and touched the rings of his mail-shirt. He felt staggered to think that he had been walking about with the price of the Shire under his jacket. Had Bilbo known? He felt no doubt that Bilbo knew quite well. That it was indeed a kingly gift...


Perhaps just the immense worth of the item is why Bilbo said to keep it secret? Mithril was perhaps the most coveted precious metal in Middle-earth? We are also told in this chapter that the orcs seized most of it and paid tribute to Sauron with it because he also coveted mithril. That might also be a factor. Now I want to skip ahead to the Return of the King when Frodo's captured and mithril coat is confiscated. :grin:

@Lailorn I have one question I think is stupid but I can’t remember - does anyone know when/why Gandalf went to Moria before?

Gandalf briefly mentions in Journey in the Dark it was to look for news of Thrain after he went missing. I don't think there is a precise year given, but it would have been sometime between Thrain's mysterious disappearance which Appendix B notes he was imrisoned in Dol Guldur in TA 2845. Then 2850 Gandalf enters Dol Guldur, finds Thrain and gets the key of Erebor from him.

I'm not sure if it's said why he wanted to try to find Thrain, although we might infer it has to do with Thorin and Gandalf's "chance" meeting in Bree in TA 2941. Appendix A: Durin's Folk gives a brief account of what was on Gandalf's mind in that meeting:

Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?

In 2841 Thrain sets out from the Blue Mountains with the intention of going to Erebor. But he never makes it, disappears and is imprisoned in Dol Guldur in TA 2845. Maybe Gandalf heard/learned of Thrain wanting to return to Erebor and after learning of his disapperance wanted to find him to propose a plan of dealing with Smaug that Thorin and Gandalf make almost 100 years later? Because in that chance meeting Gandalf tells Thorin, Smaug and Erebor had long troubled him and wanted to establish a firmer foothold to resist Sauron's plots into Eriador/reclaiming Angmar.

Edit: simul with Mojo, fascinating about Caradhras. Can't believe I missed that topic, I shall have to check it out. Thank you! :thumbs:
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I should've linked it in the other post, sorry about that, was writing from my phone. Here's the topic on the Balrog and Caradhras -> https://lotrfanaticsplaza.com/forum/vie ... p?f=3&t=80

Speaking of the Balrog, onto the Bridge of Khazad-dum! Even in this chapter, Tolkien gives us a "light at the end of the tunnel" moment. Pippin has dropped the stone down the well a day or so before. We have heard the drums in the deep but no direct challenges to the Company until that very last moment when it seems they are so close to the exit. They finally know where they are and how close they are to the Gates! Yet this is when the Orcs surround them and challenge them.

The Battle of Wills at the door of the Chamber of Marzubul is one of those great moments in the books where we actually see some direct magic and the Balrog counter. I really wish we had gotten this moment in the movie. Instead we got the Cave Troll (which is referenced here in the book but does not fight with the Fellowship).

Also, just so this thread doesn't get bogged down with the inevitable "Balrog Wings" topic, there's a Lore thread on that as well -> https://lotrfanaticsplaza.com/forum/vie ... p?f=3&t=69
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@Mojo good points on Bill Ferny. It is hard to imagine, in addition, him having any real vested interest in the more... metaphysical stakes of the War of the Ring. He seems to me anyway to be remarkably small minded -- small minded enough, even, that he could be told that a hostile foreign power seeks to rule the land and think that wealth is something that will have any meaning at all in the days to come.

Also, @Boromir88, is it possible that the strange insistence which Bilbo gives about Frodo taking the mithril shirt is meant, to some degree, to show us Bilbo's discontent? He has become, it almost seems, an anxious old man--concerned that those he cares about will hurt themselves through foolishness, even though he did equally foolish and dangerous things in the days of his youth.
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I am still a couple of chapters behind and in the process of getting caught up, but it continues to surprise me how many facets of the movies overwhelmed my recollection of what happened in the books. In the movie, Frodo announces he'll take the Ring as everyone is arguing, but it happens very differently in the book.
No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought. A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
'I will take the Ring,' he said, 'though I do not know the way.'

The idea of speaking up into a silent gathering of esteemed people uncertain of what to do is...well, terrifying as far as I'm concerned. I feel like it shows a spark of Frodo's bravery that we will see come out more later.

Overall I liked the Council of Elrond a lot more on this reading than I used to. It used to feel like a long exposition-heavy chapter, which I suppose it still is, but the amount of information Tolkien lays out through various characters is impressive.
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Yes @Menolly -- I agree on both points. The film version, while it does emphasize the ease with which even the wise will turn on each other (foreshadowing the danger of Boromir) also loses some of the gravitas of the text, where everyone is... stuck. Even the most powerful don't know what to do, and it takes Frodo to nudge them into action.

Additionally, the degree to which you piece the story together--especially with Gollum, hearing first from Aragorn and then Gandalf, and then finally Legolas -- brings together the Council very well, I think, and adds a sense of importance to each member of the eventual Fellowship -- a sense that is, I think, lost in the movies, where Legolas for instance barely speaks at all.
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@Androthelm good point about Bilbo and the mithril shirt. :thumbs: I finished Bridge of Khazad-dum today and yep, another thing the movie messed me up on. I thought Frodo revealed the mithril shirt to the company, but he keeps it secret and only wonders if Gandalf knew more than he was letting on.

What's kind of crazy is I'm still seeing comparisons between Book I and II. :googly:

Ch. 4 A Shortcut to Mushrooms - The hobbits debate and take a shortcut.

A Journey in the Dark - After Caradhras defeats them and a debate, they can't take the path further south through the Gap of Rohan...the route through Moria is like a shortcut.

Ch. 5 Conspiracy Unmasked - The secret Merry and the co-conspirators were keeping from Frodo is revealed. One of the conspirators (Fatty) doesn't follow. So you could say they lost a conspirator.

Bridge of Khazad-dum - The 'secret' of a balrog that's been hiding in Moria is revealed. Gandalf is lost as one of the members of the Fellowship.

I think they're a little broader comparisons, but it's kind of crazy. I think one of the major differences though with Book II is the tone is completely different. So grim and dreadful. It was talked about the beginning chapters of Book I, everything felt like higher spirits and happy traveling songs. It got more dark as the Ringwraiths' presence came more prominent. But wow, Book II the Fellowship just starts out on a grumpy and sad tone, then it just keeps getting worse for them. :cry:
-----

A Journey in the Dark

-The big points that stood out is in keeping with the sadder tone, Aragorn's pessimistic warnings to Gandalf really kill the mood. As if it needed to be any worse, just the description of the vast emptiness and darkness of Moria, by the end even the high spirits of Gimli were defeated.

-Frodo's heightened senses of evil. Is this an effect of the Ring? Gandalf seems to think so, but doesn't tell him. Evil things are drawn to it, which is also interesting reading the Caradhras thread and the idea of Caradhras drawing evil things towards it.

The Bridge of Khazad-dum

I really like the description of the orc captain scene. I think the movies portrayed orcs more as cannon fodder, just for easy foes for the heroes to kill (more so in The Hobbit than in Lord of the Rings). But I like Tolkien having the understanding that even orcs are dangerous obstacles and threats. It makes me feel as the reader they're in real danger if they get trapped in the Chamber of Mazarbul like the remainder of Balin's dwarves did. They only kill 13 of them (I think it's 14 when you include the captain), but the entire scene with the captain is thrilling:

...With a thrust of of his huge hide shield he turned Boromir's sword and bore him backwards, throwing him to the ground. Diving under Aragorn's blow with the speed of a striking snake he charged into the Company and thrust with his spear straight at Frodo.

Think about an orc who was stronger than Boromir (drove him backwards 'throwing him to the ground') and with the agility to dodge one of Aragorn's strikes (with 'the speed of a striking snake') that is a terrifying and crazy image to picture. Yes, PJ, orcs can be tough!

A curious question I've always wondered when reading this chapter (no, it's not Balrog's wings :googly: ) but what about Aragorn and Boromir staying on the bridge with Gandalf. I mean, do you find it more courageous in not wanting to abandon Gandalf, or just stupidity?
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I absolutely think it's courage, @Boromir88 -- courage which misunderstands the scale of the threat they're facing, but courage nonetheless. I actually think it's incredibly similar to Glorfindel having to hold the path behind the refugees from Gondolin, which is interesting because... that's another Balrog.

The Orc-captain is also interesting, because in the films they give that role (actually making some headway against the Fellowship, injuring Frodo) to a troll. That's the part I always forget--the Troll gets one foot into the room and is driven back. It honestly seems like they would have been overwhelmed -- Aragorn even remarks that they must flee before the troll returns.
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I think it's courage as well, if misplaced courage. None of them (except Gandalf) have any real frame of reference for how dangerous the Balrog is, or how unlikely it is that they'll manage to save Gandalf. (I haven't quite gotten to here in my read, though.)

There's another excellent piece of foreshadowing I had either forgotten or missed before, from Aragorn.

'Steady! Steady!' cried Gandalf as Merry and Pippin pushed forward, glad to find a place where they could rest with at least more feeling of shelter than in the open passage. 'Steady! You do not know what is inside yet. I will go first.'
He went in cautiously, and the others filed behind. 'There!' he said, pointing with his staff to the middle of the floor. Before his feet they saw a large round hole like the mouth of a well. Broken and rusty chains lay at the edge and trailed down into the black pit. Fragments of stone lay near.
'One of you might have fallen in and still be wondering when you were going to strike the bottom,' said Aragorn to Merry. 'Let the guide go first while you have one.'
My emphasis at the end, of course. Aragorn is so sure of Gandalf's demise, and yet he stays on the bridge. Do we ever get an explanation of Aragorn's premonition? He is so sure Gandalf will fall in Moria, but I don't think he ever says why he's so sure.
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Book II has been a marathon so far. I did not realize that when I put the reading list together, I was focusing mostly on grouping similar "areas" of the journey together. We leave Khazad-dum and move on to Lorien. Wow we have been a lot of places in a short amount of time here. Given the sheer amount of reading that went into the last few weeks, feel free to continue with any follow-up thoughts on the prior chapters as well.

Something I'll throw out there for discussion, there are many different ways to compare and contrast Lothlorien. The most common, I think, is the difference between Lorien and Rivendell, because they are the two stalwart remaining strongholds of the Elves. One of the Noldorian Elves and one of the (mostly) Sindarin Elves. One other comparison that I think might be interesting would be between Lothlorien and the Woodland Realm in Mirkwood. I think that while Lorien and Rivendell are both Elvish but in different ways (Noldor vs Sindar), Lorien and Mirkwood are both Sindarin in nature but one is preserved by the power of a Ring while the other is not. I think that may be interesting to keep in the back of our heads as we discuss this chapter and Tolkien's incredible detail of the Woods of Laurelindorenan.
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Also fruitful, I suggest, the comparison of Lorien with Hollin that was Eregion.
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I am so far behind ... RL got me good. :(
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@Androthelm - true, its a shame Glorfindel got cut but I do sort of see now why PJ did what he did. In the book, its really unclear that Aragorn is in love with Arwen! And thanks to you and @Boromir88 for kindly jogging my memory about Gandalf & Moria & Thrain. The quote from the Appendix A: Durin's Folk certainly adds a lot more context to the whole situation and I think your train of logic makes sense. Gandalf certainly does have remarkable foresight sometimes, doesn't he?

@Menolly - I did so love that moment when Frodo volunteers to take the Ring. While I was reading, I half cheered and half groaned because I know what awful things he is going to go through. I think he did show remarkable bravery in this moment, but I also wonder if he knew just how bad it was going to be...I wonder if he would still have gone and I couldn't blame him for not doing so.

Between Aragorn's reluctance to enter the Mines of Moria, and some of the things he said, @Menolly, that is an interesting question. How did he seem to know something was going to befall Gandalf? Was it based solely on what Gloin said at the Council of Elrond - that they woke a nameless fear and then no one heard from Balin again?
Glóin sighed. 'Moria! Moria! Wonder of the Northern world! Too deep we delved there, and woke the nameless fear. Long have its vast mansions lain empty since the children of Durin fled. But now we spoke of it again with longing, and yet with dread; for no dwarf has dared to pass the doors of Khazad-dum for many lives of kings, save Thror only, and he perished. At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dain did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Oin and many of our folk, and they went away south.
'That was nigh on thirty years ago. For a while we had news and it seemed good: messages reported that Moria had been entered and a great work begun there. Then there was silence, and no word has ever come from Moria since.'"
Did Aragorn know what the "nameless fear" was and he connected the dots that out of the Fellowship, only Gandalf had the power to face a balrog?

I have to put together my thoughts on Lorien but let me just say now: wow - I am officially in love with the place and I want to be there right now.

@Lirimaer - sorry to hear! I am missing your posts, but RL trumps all and I hope you manage to catch up soon. <3

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I've also fallen a touch behind, but here anyway are some thoughts on CHAPTER 6!

We have passed now out of the long darkness and into, perhaps, the most metaphysical part of this book.

Lothlórien

One of the things which interests me most about the opening of this chapter is the sense of loss, not only for Frodo and Aragorn, who knew Gandalf well but for the entirety of the Company. Gimli especially is distraught…
'There [Caradhras] stands smiling in the sun!' [Gimli] shook his fist at the furthest of the snow-capped peaks and turned away.
and then, later…
'There lies the Mirrormere, deep Kheled-zâram!' said Gimli sadly. 'I remember that he said: “May you have joy of the sight! But we cannot linger there.” Now long shall I journey ere I have joy again. It is I that must hasten away, and he that must remain.’
Maybe it’s simply movie-memory turning Gimli into a bit of a joke, but it’s powerful to see him so emotional.

Anyway, the Fellowship continues down through yet another long abandoned but once great road, visit Durin’s stone — of which I have a question. Are the stars which Frodo sees in the water… jewels? Something more? I’ve always been slightly confused by this moment — and arrive at the eaves of Lothlórien, against Boromir’s advice. Here, I think, we see a little bit of the Tolkien’s influences in folklore and literature peeking through — Galadriel is a bit of a Nimue and a bit of a Morgana, and (especially in Boromir’s view) the elf-wood of Lothlorien is reminiscent of Faerie—which makes sense, I suppose, since it is a memory of faerie in the west. Additionally, I can’t help but read into the repeated word “Perilous” — the empty chair at King Arthur’s table, which could only be taken by a knight who was virtuous enough to have found the Grail, was the Siege Perilous and Aragorn here remarks:
[Lothlorien is] fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them.
Boromir is a knight being tested—and struggling.

Legolas gives us some poetry here, which I like quite a lot. The story of Nimrodel and Amroth feels… pleasantly disconnected, if that makes any sense at all. We hear again and again poems and stories of Gondor, and Numenor, and Earendil — all of which are rather tightly interconnected to each other. This poem feels like a work of it’s own — although it does, of course, resonate with the story at hand.

Then we get one of my favorite lines, in which Tolkien sums up (in my opinion) his stance on the recurrent motif of good folk turning against each other and blaming each other for things going poorly:
[Legolas is speaking] ‘…the Dwarves awakened evil in the mountains.’
‘But the Dwarves did not make the evil,’ said Gimli.
‘I said not so; yet evil came.’
So often, I think, the heroes in Middle Earth fail because they fall to debating who is to blame for ill events. Here, Legolas brushes that aside. What matters is that evil came.

They pass on into Lothlórien and we get a taste of that separation and that evil. Even Legolas cannot say for certain if elves still dwell in the Golden Wood, which fascinates me because it does suggest that, despite all the trouble it has taken them to get this far, the road from Elrond’s house to Lothlorien — which we know that Aragorn has taken and Gandalf, too — and Elrond’s messengers who are referenced in this chapter — is easier than the road from Thranduil’s kingdom in north Mirkwood?? Clearly despite the fact that the White Council drove the Necromancer from Mirkwood, the southern end of the great forest is still uninhabited. In addition, Haldir’s distrustfulness of dwarves — even of one who is vouched for by one of his kindred — is remarkable. Another question for the crowd, then — has Lorien had any contact at all with dwarves, since Moria was deserted?

Gollum is here too, padding along behind the Fellowship as usual, though when the orcs (who he seems to be traveling with?) are scattered, he heads off south while the rest go west. Interesting — since this puts him directly in the path of the Fellowship again. Lucky guess, I suppose — had he gone west, he likely wouldn’t have picked up their trail again with the bulk of Lothlórien between him and Frodo.

Finally they pass into Lothlórien and, with messengers from the Lord and Lady, are permitted to remove their blindfolds. Cerin Amroth is beautiful… But, more interesting to me, is Frodo’s repeated sense that he has
stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world.
We talked about this more in the time-travel thread, though.

Here at the end of the chapter we get a few more small details and, in fact, answers to some things I have raised: Sam remarks that it is a sunny afternoon and yet this place feels as elvish as any moon or star, and Haldir remarks that he is feeling the power of Galadriel. Frodo, from the top of Cerin Amroth, sees the dark distance of Mirkwood — where trees rot and claw at each other, and nature is perverted. Haldir answers too the question of why the southern part of the wood is so dangerous — it is inhabited again, and the power of Caras Galadhon (though it has not been named) strives against the power of Dol Guldur. A follow-up question, then, although I’m not sure we’ll get an answer… What is in Dol Guldur? Who inhabits it? Sauron should be in Mordor and the Ringwraiths were in Eriador last we checked — have they returned to Dol Guldur?

And, finally, Aragorn has a moment on the grass of Cerin Amroth. I thought we all know who he’s thinking of (wink wink nudge nudge also he says her name) but it’s nice to remember everything that’s happening in the background here as well.
In the deeps of Time, amidst the Innumerable Stars

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Oh, I have missed so much, due to a very sad death in our circle of friends. I longed to spend time reading, but ended up spending it preparing a funeral service. But I am back now and hope to catch up with all of you. Looking forward to it!
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I agree with the notes of others here, that Gandalf is jovial and yet troubling. He read's Frodo's memories (aided but Frodo speaking in his sleep) but also seems rather to want to laugh things off than continue discussing the grim days which are to come. If I had to hazard a guess, perhaps it's because Frodo's role in what will come is yet to be determined? And Gandalf is looking, here, to ensure him a full and happy recovery and a pleasant stay in Rivendell until, at least, the Council.
I was thinking about that, the feast and how the ring is not directly spoken of this night. How Gandalf is jovial to Frodo. I think there are two possibilities here. One I can find directly in the book: it seems to be “doctor’s orders”. I quote Gandalf: ‘All in good time! You are not supposed to talk or worry about anything today, by Elrond’s orders.’ Seems logical to me.

Another thing I find in the end of the chapter, about Frodo and Bilbo. There they sat for some while, looking through the window and the bright stars above the steep-climbing woods, and talking softly. They spoke no more of the small news of the Shire far away, nor of the dark shadows and perils that encompassed them, but of the fair things they had seen in the world together, of the Elves, of the stars, of trees, and the gentle fall of the bright year in the woods.

This leads me to a second possible explanation. ‘Avoiding’ as a way of self-defense.
It reminds me of how we sometimes spend time together as a family shortly before something ‘big’ is going to happen. Like the night before my sister’s wedding when we were all together as a family. We looked back and celebrated, without speaking of what was to come. We were ending a chapter and taking time to do so.
Or like the last night with a good friend who will be leaving the country for a long time, when you – without speaking out – all decide to bring back memories instead of speaking of the next day. I think all those present in Rivendell were realizing something big was about to happen. That the next day, everything might change and all (or at least many) cards would be open on the table as we say in Dutch. So this night they enjoyed ‘not’ knowing all, celebrated Frodo’s recovery and the fact that Gandalf made it too. Something like that.
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Sorry to hear RL getting in the way, @Lirimaer and @Eamila Bolger. I hope things start easing up and turning around.

To go back to something from my last post, the reason I asked if Aragorn and Boromir standing on the bridge with Gandalf was courage or stupidity, is it seems very short-sighted. Of course, I have the benefit of knowing what happens, and Gandalf's sacrifice is a crucial part of the story. However, what if Aragorn and Boromir were lost as well? The Fellowship has already had a rough start, with grim and little hope, can you imagine leaving Moria with only a company of Legolas, Gimli and 4 hobbits? :headshake: I grant that neither of them likely fully understood the nature and power of the balrog. Courageous? Yes, but foolish as well.

Ok, now onto this week's reading...

Lothlorien

The chapter opens with a central theme of the story, in my opinion. It's a story about hope vs. despair. The Fellowship is rocked with despair. Book II is just very bleak. They leave Rivendell and no one (besides Bill the pony) is in high spirits. There's the depressing final sentence in The Ring Goes South about Caradhras defeating them. Now the loss of Gandalf. It all appears very hopeless and the Fellowship already failing, before it really even began. Ah, but here I love Aragorn:

'...What hope have we without you?'
He turned to the Company. 'We must go without hope,' he said..


To continue, even without hope, still feels pretty grim but also a fascinating theme. Several other characters give in to despair, believing the end is inevitable and give up. Here, Aragorn is kind of admitting there is no hope (without Gandalf), but they must continue on without it. It sort of runs hand-in-hand with Elrond and Galadriel's expression about "fighting the long defeat."

-Ahh, so I did remember correctly that Frodo reveals the mithril coat to the company, I just didn't remember the correct spot. :grin: I quite like the friendship between Frodo and Gimli in these last few chapters. I did not remember their friendship was this noticeable. But from Gimli asking Frodo to join him for a look upon Durin's stone and then Frodo's fierce defense in Lothlorien:

'But he is from the Lonely Mountain, one of Dain's trusty people, and friendly to Elrond,' said Frodo. 'Elrond himself chose him to be one of our companions, and he has been brave and faithful.'

@Androthelm Another question for the crowd, then — has Lorien had any contact at all with dwarves, since Moria was deserted?

I don't believe so. The Noldor of Eregion, seem to have the best relationship with dwarves. As Gandalf remarks when those were 'happier times' and there was friendship between Celebrimbor and Narvi. I haven't quite gotten to the part yet, but I think there's similar attitude that Celeborn displays towards Gimli, as Haldir's attitude. Which makes sense for Celeborn, being an elf from Doriath.

Some minor comments I noted in the chapter.

I love the humor when the elves say they heard them coming because they breathe so loud. Then when Sam climbs the talan the remark "he tried holding his breath." :lol:

Boromir saying he won't enter Lothlorien because the lore says people don't ever return. Then Haldir's comment about a company of orcs entering searching for the Fellowship, but they would not leave the forest. It's interesting, because it shows Boromir's ignorance and lack of understanding of lore/how out of place he's feeling. Yet, also the grain of truth, and how these "tales" have their own legs...Haldir directly says the orcs will not leave the forest. :googly:
A Loquacious Loreman.
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Tis the season of Sean Bean prequel shows

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@Boromir88 I love the moment with Sam, especially because -- once again -- Frodo is invited and he just sort of... comes along.

Some thoughts on Chapter 7

The Mirror of Galadriel

After a long walk (all the way around the city of Caras Galadhon) the Fellowship is brought before the Lord and Lady of the Wood. This is an interesting scene in part because… I remembered it terribly. Maybe it was the movie again, but Celeborn does a whole lot more talking than I thought he did, and part of it (his threat against Gimli) seems deeply foolish. Lothlórien may be paradise(ish) but you can certainly see how it would up so isolated from the rest of the world.

On a lighter note, can anyone explain just what the significance of height is in the Lord of the Rings? It just struck be that Elendil was called the Tall, Numenorians were legendarily Tall, Boromir will (in a few chapters) be called Tall mid-dirge, and now we learn that Celeborn and Galadriel are both very tall — and, perhaps more importantly, that Galadriel is just as tall as he. On the other hand, of course, we have Hobbits, Dwarves, and Orcs, all of which are on the shorter side. Is there something going on that I’m not getting?

Moving on, Boromir is once again distrustful of the Lady of the Wood as the Fellowship discusses their experience with her, complaining that her test offers only what “she pretends to have the power to give.” I think it’s pretty clear that she’s offering him the Ring in some capacity, but… I would love to see those text receipts. Did Galadriel put into Boromir’s mind the image of her… joining forces to give him the Ring? Murdering the Hobbits in their sleep? No wonder he dislikes her.

I love Frodo’s poem about Gandalf here, just by the way, although I’m not a fan of Sam’s addition. It’s the wrong rhyme scheme, Samwise. The RHYME is WRONG.

As we draw close to the end of the chapter, Galadriel appears and once again I can’t help but feel there’s a touch of the fairy-story as she silently beckons Frodo and Sam to follow her through the wood. I will admit, I’ve always been a touch confused by what Galadriel’s goal is in this scene—to test Frodo and Sam again? Just to deliver a sense of the scale of their task? One way or another, we do get some interesting moments:
1.
Sam is, for the first time, actually sorely tempted to leave Frodo. He cares deeply for the Shire.
2.
Frodo sees Gandalf (or Saruman, maybe, but I suspect Gandalf) at… Some stage in reincarnation, I have to think.
3.
Galadriel straight admits that yes, she has daydreamed about taking the ring by force (again, I’d LOVE to know what she told Boromir)



And, with essentially that, the chapter ends. Catch us next time (when I catch up on reading) on… ~~Farewell to Lorien~~
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I could have said a lot about these chapters, but here are my most condensed thoughts from all the pages I bookmarked.

Lothlorien is so beautiful and tranquil and I want to be there right now. I felt lighter just reading about it. The descriptions of the forest itself were a huge highlight for me. So as not to clog this thread, I’ll post my favorite passages in the “favorite chapters” thread.

I talked about places of refuge a bit in Book I - Lorien is our first and only haven in Book II (unless you count Rivendell at the start). After the darkness and doom of Moria, they have much-needed time to rest and grieve and recover. The journey is slowly becoming ever more perilous and the world continues to grow as they cross the Misty Mountains and enter the Golden Wood.

I really enjoyed watching the friendship between Legolas and Gimli’s develop and how Aragorn insisted they all go blindfolded instead of just the dwarf.

@Androthelm - I also highlighted Gimli’s words about his grief over Moria and Gandalf. I thought his words were very poignant and expressed the grief they were all feeling.

I also noticed that the Fellowship, and particularly Frodo, like to delay decision-making almost until they reach a point where they have no choice. I’m mostly thinking of crossing Caradhras vs. Moria and going east vs. going to Minas Tirith.

I’ve found Boromir a very interesting character this time around. His focus is so much on Gondor, which is fair, because they are on Mordor’s front step. He repeatedly disagrees with the decisions of the Fellowship throughout but he defers to their plans every time.

In The Mirror of Galadriel...
To Legolas, Celeborn says: “‘Welcome son of Thranduil! Too seldom do my kindred journey hither from the North.’”

I have to say I always wondered a little why the Elves of Rivendell, Mirkwood, Lorien don’t seem to intermingle much. This is related to your comments about Legolas not knowing if Elves still inhabit Lorien, @Androthelm. They come off as pretty isolationist to me, but I feel there must be a reason for this. I know they all split off into their branches back in the day, do you think it is related to that (Noldor v. Sindar) or just geography?

Galadriel presumably offers each of them a choice in this chapter. We are told each member was offered “something that he greatly desired.”
We get good insight when Sam says “‘If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn’t got nothing on, and I didn’t like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with - with a bit of garden of my own.’”
I, too, wonder what the others were offered.

Farewell to Lorien
My only other question is - is Galadrirel’s swan boat a nod to the Teleri?

As far as who is inhabiting Dol Guldur at the time Frodo sees Mirkwood, @Androthelm, I thought it was one of the Nazgul, possibly the Witch-King? But hopefully someone else may know more than me.

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@Lailorn I had never considered the potential swan boat / swan ship connection. That is... fascinating, if it's the case. Really casts an interesting light on her position as... essentially last of those First Age Noldor to persist in Middle-Earth, and the degree to which she is redeemed or regretful.

As far as the presence in Dol Guldur, I did some googling -- apparently three of the Nazgul are present there, attested in Unfinished Tales.

I also just have one question on b]Fairwell to Lothlorien[/b] -- is Aragorn... angstier than anyone else remembered? He's far less confident than I expected, especially in his role as new leader of the Fellowship. It's an interesting thing to examine as we move on -- I had always sort of remembered him as a kind of traditional leader, possibly even co-equal with Gandalf in the earlier days, but that clearly isn't the case.
In the deeps of Time, amidst the Innumerable Stars

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