LOTR Read-Along Book II

Discussions in Middle-earth lore, language and books.
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I am almost back at where I should be in reading :-)

After reading all your comments on the previous chapters, I have a few remarks and questions of my own that I didn't see mentioned by others.

Many meetings
Bilbo’s friendship to/with Aragorn stood out to me as well. How lightly and easily he speaks to him, how Aragorn – already realizing who he is supposed to be – takes time to help writing poetry.

The council of Elrond
Ah, Bilbo is there! And it’s too well he is. I had forgotten.

Frodo sees a red star each night… is it the eye of Sauron?
Something to add to the question about powers that are at work: “That is the purpose for which you were called hither. Called I say, though I have not called you to me, strangers from distant lands. You have come and are here met, in this very nick of time, by chance as it may seem. Yet it is not so. Believe rather that it is so ordered that we, who sit here, and none others, must now find counsel for the peril of the world.”
Ordered by whom? A greater power?

The poem about Aragorn: something funny that happened in my mind: I always thought that the poem ‘All that is gold does not glitter’ was some kind of prophecy from long ago. I was a bit… confused and disappointed that it was made by Bilbo. Which is stupid of course, but it somehow lost a bit of its… glitter to me. Sorry ‘bout that Bilbo… you are a great poet of course. The elves and Strider seem to acknowledge that, I must too!

@Boromir88 a very interesting thought about Boromir and his (bad) luck there!

Lothlorien
Well, if we are still looking at a parallel between book 1 and 2, here is a good one. Lothlorien and the House of Tom Bombadil: the two only places in Middle Earth where time seems to stand still and the evil does not yet seem to have a grip on.

@Androthelm you wondered earlier about Radagast leaving Rhosgobel and Mirkwood getting darker perhaps. When Frodo and Sam are taken up the hill of Cerin Amroth, Haldir shows them the darkness far away in Mirkwood and Dol Goldur of which Haldir says ‘We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud is often over it of late.’ That might be why Radagast left? But where has he gone?

I agree on the idea of Bill Ferny serving merely his own selfish person...


Well, I have arrived at the chapters of last week and this week, will try to cover all four of them this week.
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@Eamila Bolger goooooood catch on the Red Star -- I have no idea what that might be, and I don't think I'd ever consciously noticed it before.

I do also find the poem about Strider fascinating, especially because there is a certain air about how people -- Elrond, Galadriel, Arwen, and Gandalf especially -- engage with him which suggests that they are well aware that he is destined to some degree to sit on the throne of Gondor. Maybe that's because he's childless (the kingly line will end with him, since he refuses to marry anyone but Arwen) and maybe it's because there is a prophecy about him (I think one of the explanations of the "Green Stone" we were talking about in the last thread includes Gandalf giving it to Galadriel long, long ago and warning her that someone else will come to claim it) but maybe... Aragorn just has a really good hype-man, in the form of Bilbo.

We know that Radagast departed Rhosgobel to find Gandalf -- or, we think we know that, since he had probably been helping Saruman search for the Ring in the Gladden Fields before that. But where is he now, I wonder? Providing council to the Beornings and Bardings, perhaps?
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Ack, I originally posted this in the wrong thread. My head is mush after several days not feeling well. :lol:

I came down with an ugly cold for the last several days, but feels like my fever has finally broken. On the plus side, I was able to do a bunch of reading and catch up, because I really wasn't feeling like I could do much else. :smile:

Going back through some of the outstanding questions...

Regarding Dol Guldur, if I can recall correctly I think at least one Nazgul remained there as a means to attack Thranduil's elves. I think another factor is I was fascinated by the description of Hollin and taking a long time for a land to forget the inhabitants that lived there. I think it could work the same for a force of evil. After the Ring's destruction it's mentioned that Galadriel goes to Dol Guldur:

They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits, and the forest was cleansed. (Appendix B)

It's symoblic in Galadriel's victory over the power in Dol Guldur she strove against, but I think it's more than the symbolic victory. Even after Sauron's destructions, it's like a residual evil was still in Dol Guldur, and Galadriel "cleansed" the forest. It was then Thranduil renamed the forest Eryn Lasgalen, the Wood of Greenleaves.

The Mirror of Galadriel

I think this might be my favorite chapter so far from Book II. It's quite short, but there's so much going on. It's a mix of beauty and relief, but also grief and growing doom.

Regarding Galadriel's individual 'tests' to the company, I think Boromir makes an astute observation:

'...but almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give.'

A quote I have never forgotten, because I've referred to it so many times and I think is good insight. When Gandalf returns and learns of Boromir's death, he says:

'I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end.' (The Two Towers: The White Rider)

What's interesting is this happens before Frodo offers the Ring to Galadriel and passes the 'test.' I remember others saying Galadriel's actions hastened Boromir's "fall," because this may be the first inkling we get of the Ring pressuring Boromir. The Council he obviously makes a case for using it as a weapon against Sauron, but at the time appears to have accepted the Council's decision to destroy it. After Gandalf's death, in the last chapter there's a mention about Boromir starting to press Frodo more with questions and now here, Galadriel tests Boromir in some fashion. This is before Galadriel passes her test, though.

So, I've always read it as Galadriel was trying to help Boromir, acting almost as a surrogate for the Ring "offering what she pretended to have the power to give." could also describe the One Ring which's it's chief power is to deceive a person with delusions of supreme power. I've seen others argue Galadriel does more harm by hastening Boromir's fall. But I think it started really pressing on his mind after Gandalf's death, Galadriel reads that and was trying to give him a test to save him. Galadriel passes her trial and she was attempting to make Boromir see the deceits of the Ring so he could pass 'the trial.' Unfortunately, his astute observation about Galadriel pretending to give power she didn't have, he doesn't realize that also describes the Ring.

I had the same reaction @Androthelm had with Celeborn in these Lothlorien chapters. It's easy to forget, when you try to compare to Galadriel, but I forgot about his prominence. I understand the movies portrayal, this is the only time we 'see' Galadriel and Celeborn in the story, and so it would be difficult to draw out how important both of them are. Galadriel's impact is seen more prominently later in the story, so I understand the movies portraying her character more than Celeborn, which would be difficult character to flesh out who only comes into the story this one time. It makes it very easy that I forgot Celeborn, and then in these handful and relatively short chapters Tolkien's mastery to bring out Celeborn's character as well:

'For the Lord of the Galadhrim is accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings. He has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted;

And their introduction about showing no age except "in the depths of their eyes, for these were keen as lances in the starlight, and yet profound, the wells of deep memory."

I was fascinated by Galadriel's answer to Frodo's question about why he couldn't see and perceive the minds of the other Ring-bearers:

'You have not tried,' she said. 'Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do no try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise.'

It would destroy Frodo to try to use the Ring to see all the other Ring-bearers and read their thoughts. Yet, even without trying to use that power he is able to perceive more clearly, even Galadriel's thoughts better than many of the wise. I also love Sam saying he wishes Galadriel would take the Ring, because she would "make things right" and put a stop to Sandyman uprooting the Shire, but the chapter ends on Galadriel:

'I would,' she said. 'That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas!'

A question I've been wondering about and I doubt there's a conclusive answer on it, but I've been curious since finishing this chapter. I remembered Galadriel wanted to place Gandalf as head of the White Council, but forgot she is credited as being the initial founder of it. I wonder, as the initial founder and saying she wanted Gandalf to lead it, how and why did Saruman get chosen as the leader? Did someone else (Elrond? Celeborn?) put forward Saruman's name? I'm not sure he is in the White Council, but if he was I can't imagine it would have been Cirdan since he gives his elven ring to Gandalf. Did Gandalf not accept the job as it's leader and therefor someone else put Saruman forward? After Galadriel said she was the founder and her choice was Gandalf to lead it, it just makes me curious to how Saruman came to be the leader?
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The mirror of Galadriel

Two things that I would like to mention here:

1) Like @Boromir88 I noticed Frodo asks Galadriel why he cannot see the other ringbearers when he puts on the ring. The answer fascinates me too, but there is something else. She tells him that he hasn’t tried yet and that he has put the ring on only three times so far. Does this mean that she (and the other Elvish ringbearers??) could see Frodo when he put on that ring? How else would she know? It would explain why she seems to know so much about Frodo and his quest when she cannot tell what happened to Gandalf since she cannot ‘see’ beyond her own borders.

2) Where Elrond and Gandalf speak of ‘powers’ that arrange things, Galadriel seems to look at it differently. I quote: ‘In the morning you must depart, for now we have chosen, and the tides of fate are flowing.’ I find it hard to understand this. On one side she speaks of choices made (by her and by Frodo and Sam) and on the other hand she speaks of ‘fate’. The tides of fate… why tides? The tide comes and goes but never leaves. It kept me wondering. But it feels to me like she is the first one who makes it clear that it is not just some kind of power, or plain fate, but the choices that each and everyone makes that will define the future.

Wondering what you guys think of these two things?


Farewell to Lórien

1) First question comes to mind when I read the title. Why does the earlier title speak of Lothlorien and this one of merely Lórien? Is it because something has changed now and fate is going it’s way?
I see that Legolas and Aragorn at the first encounter call it Lothlórien, but later Legolas speaks of Lórien as well. Haldir uses both names too. It might not be too big a deal, but I do wonder why Tolkien used one name for one chapter and the other for a later chapter. As if he wanted something to stand out?

2) It wonders me how much doubt there is about where to go next. The title ‘the Ring goes south’ said it all: they knew they had to go south. But where the movies give us the idea of a close fellowship, the book just shows us how Boromir joins the group because he is going south anyway to his country and Aragorn is planning to come with him. They have set out to accompany Frodo and Sam ‘for a while’ on his journey. And Frodo cannot do without them. Legolas and Gimli are there because they are representatives of their kin. But without Gandalf they seem to miss a plan, even when Gandalf looked at Aragorn for decisions in the beginning.

3) I love how Pippin calls the robes ‘magic’ and the Elves wonder what he means and start explaining the ‘facts’ about those robes. What is so normal to them, is like magic to down-to-earth hobbits.

4) Brilliant quote from Celeborn: But do not despise the lore that has come down from distant years, for of it may chance that old wives keep in memory word of things that once were needful for the wise to know.’ Is it just me who has to think of Ioreth and athelas here?

5) The gift giving is such a wonderful part of the tale. At first it seems strange that they – all set to go – are going back to the shore for a meal with their hosts. Are they not in haste? But it ends up being such a wonderful moment. Galadriel seems to know what everyone needs or want. She is so wise and so much more than a royal highness. She knows how to ‘come close’ to her guests.
The best gifts – if you ask me – are the two that she gives after asking ‘what do you want’: Aragorn and Gimli. There is that green stone that Aragorn insisted to be put in the poem! It is bound to the women in the line of Galadriel and therefore also to Arwen, am I right? So while the others may think this gift has something to do with his heritage, it feels like Galadriel is ‘giving Arwen away’ by giving this heirloom and connecting the word ‘hope’ to it.
And Gimli’s gift, I love how she tells all the Elves to listen to this and proves anyone wrong who has a prejudice about Dwarves. But also how Gimli says he’ll use the three hairs as a token of good will between Dwarves and Elves. Loving it.
The conversation between Gimli and Legolas in the boat is wonderful too. They have just left and already miss everything good. Even Legolas, who has seen so much of the Elven worlds by now.

6) I wonder by the way why Tolkien after Galadriel’s song speaks of ‘lands in exile’?? Does anyone know?


As for your question, @Boromir88, about Gandalf not being the leader of the White Council. I've wondered about that too. He may have been Galadriel's favorite, but he himself sees Saruman as the head of his order (and I didn't think he meant the council with that??). Saruman is the White, he is the grey and becomes the white later. White Council, White Wizard in charge? Something like that?

About Boromir and his peril: I believe that the closer they were coming to Minas Tirith, the stronger the wish to save his people was growing. After all those months traveling, he had found an answer to the questions of the dream. Now he just wanted to go back home and go back to this army, the ones he had leaded and had left behind with his younger brother in charge. I do not think his peril was that he wanted to rule Gondor: he was open to Aragorn and his help. But his peril might be that he still thinks you can better take the ring and use it for 'good' instead of most likely loosing it to it's previous owner while trying to bring it to Mordor. He wants the race of men to triumph. He has to fight his own pride. And like you said, I think Galadriel is warning him, not aiding him.
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@Eamila Bolger in an effort to repond, in short, to your several very interesting questions. It does seem likely that she can, if not truly SEE Frodo (with her eyes) tell when he has put on the Ring. After all (though I may be movie-remembering) weren't she and the other elven ringbearers made aware of Sauron's treachery when he put on the ring?

The water moves on, and never returns. This is key in the elven experience in LoTR -- the slow, sad realization that you cannot stop time from passing. Some try, but they always fail -- the guard on Angband was broken, Doriath was pierced, and Gondolin too was overthrown. Even Lothlorien will fade with time.

On the topic of Elf-magic, Sam has a similar engagement with Galadriel where she remarks that she does not entirely know what he means. It's an interesting point of contact for the real world in Middle-Earth, I think. The Hobbits seem to find most of the things which we call magical magical. To the elves, these things are ordinary.

The lands in exile is a term which acknowledges Galadriel as one of the final (first-age) Noldor in Middle-Earth at this stage. She is still in exile from Valinor, to some degree.
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@Eamila Bolger great point about Saruman arriving already as the head of the Istari. I think that makes the most sense as far as Gandalf not being the head of the White Council. Also, reminds me, if Gandalf was chosen as the leader it would probably have been called the Grey Council. :grin:

Farewell to Lorien

I like the mention of Merry being able to handle boats. Unusual skill for a hobbit and comes in handy.

It's interesting how the Fellowship will be faced with a choice, as Celeborn puts it:

'One which side will you journey? The way to Minas Tirith lies upon this side, upon the west; but the straight road of the Quest lies east of the River, upon the darker shore. Which shore will you now take?'

Aragorn hasn't decided, and the next chapter is like the Fellowship just floating down a river, with Aragorn trying to delay the choice of "which shore" for as long as possible. Literally delays it all the way up to where they can't travel down the Anduin anymore, reaching the Falls of Rauros.

The Fellowship's gifts are meaningful too. I never understood why the movie didn't show Boromir receiving a gift. It wasn't even in the EE and just makes the whole scene really odd. What you couldn't have shown him being handed a gold belt? Gold belt, being a standard gift and symbol for a warrior.

Galadriel's statement that goes with Gimli's gift is I think the most memorable:

Then the Lady unbraided one of her long tresses, and cut off three golden hairs, and laid them in Gimli's hand. 'These words shall go with the gift,' she said. 'I do not foretell, for all foretelling is now vain: on one hand lies darkness, and on the other only hope. But if hope should not fail, then I say to you, Gimli son of Gloin, that your hands shall flow with gold, and yet over you gold shall have no dominion.'

The dwarves main vice I think is greed, and the power gold can hold over them. But "if hope should not fail" Galadriel's foretelling Gimli will be super-wealthy, but gold will not hold power over him. I remember on the OP participating in a thread halfir started about Galadriel and Gimli symbolizing courtly love, a "Chanson de geste" tale. And how this sequence differs from when Feanor wanted Galadriel's hair. Feanor wanted it as a symbol of ownership/mastery over Galadriel. When Galadriel asks Gimli why he wants a strand of her hair, to "treasure it."

Then the symbolism of Aragorn having just received the Elessar, a symbol of "hope." Gimli has a choice, one one hand darkness and on the other "only hope." Leaving Lothlorien seems to be Gimli's hardest decision as he remembers why Elrond warned him about no one is bound by an oath. But if Gimli chooses hope (The Elessar = Aragorn) and hope doesn't fail, well Gimli's going to be filthy rich. :lol:
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@Boromir88 the breakdown on Gimli's gift and the wordplay surrounding "hope" here is interesting. If I can take another angle, I think the difference between Gimli and Feanor's desires for Galadriel's hair demonstrate pretty clearly the recurrent theme in LoTR, especially with the Dwarves, of the difference betweengood sub-creation and bad efforts to master the world around you. Feanor lands on both sides of this divide at different points, Melkor is almost entirely on the bad end, and Gimli, here, proves his goodness -- at least of intent -- by emphasizing the inherent worth of the hair, which he merely seeks to tease out in a very respectful way.
If I can pull WAY away from the text at hand for a moment, there's a German philosopher named Martin Buber who published a book called "I and Thou" which argues that there are two broad ways we can engage with the world around us -- in a toxic, possessive "I-It" (where we think mostly about the power or value which will be conferred to us by our relationship with a person or object) and in a mutual, respectful "I-thou" (where we recognize the worth of another person or object in relationship to us but not in our possession). Long story short, Gimli's treasuring of the hair -- think, especially, when he wonders if gold will even be worthy of holding the Lady's gift -- is respectful and recognizes its value without requiring that value to be extracted for the owner.
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@Androthelm good stuff. Thank you for the additional information. :thumbs:

It's kind of hard to believe but here I am on The Great River and almost finished with The Fellowship of the Ring. (I always forget that we don't know Boromir dies until The Two Towers. :googly: )

As Celeborn poses the question in the previous chapter about "which shore" will the Fellowship take. Will they take the "straight road" by choosing the east shore, or the west shore following Boromir to Minas Tirith? This chapter begins with the same question that must be answered. However, Aragorn seems determined, for as long as he can follow the river, not to make a choice.

Indeed, I think he even seems a little off this chapter. The river was faster than he anticipated and sounded like he was hoping to have at least another day to just continue floating down the Anduin. Actually, the entire Fellowship seems off. It's a chapter with not a lot of dialogue, and there's plenty of silence:

There was little speech and no laughter in any of the boats. Each member of the Company was busy with his own thoughts.

Then there's Boromir who is the strangest and if this was my first time reading the story, I'd be wondering what is he so anxious about?

Merry and Pippin in the middle boat were ill at ease, for Boromir sat muttering to himself, sometimes biting his nails, as if some restlessness or doubt consumed him, sometimes seizing a paddle and driving the boat close behind Aragorn's. Then Pippin, who sat in the bow looking back, caught a queer gleam in his eye, as he peered forward gazing at Frodo.

It's crazy how there seems to be no immediate threat to the Fellowship, they're just floating down a great river. Yet, the atmosphere is very unsettling. No one's talking. Boromir's biting his nails and making Merry and Pippin nervous. Sam hates boats. There really is nothing threatening, until they start approaching Sarn Gebir. Then we get the orcs on the eastern shore, the winged creature Legolas shot down, confirmed Gollum's been following them.

Alas, poor Boromir! The irony in his statement: 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'

I have to admit, it's kind of funny though. Makes me think about a person choosing their own luck again.

If he started the chapter out a bit off, I like Frodo noticing a transformation in Aragorn when they see the Argonath:

'Fear not!' said a strange voice behind him. Frodo turned and saw Strider, and yet not Strider; for the weatherworn Ranger was no longer there. In the stern sat Aragorn son of Arathorn, proud and erect, guiding the boat with skilful strokes; his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile to his own land.

In Book I, he was "Strider." To Frodo he was a "mere Ranger," and now I suddenly remember Gandalf's retort "just a Ranger?" Now approaching the end of The Fellowship of the Ring, Frodo no longer sees him as the "Ranger Strider" he is "Aragorn son of Arathorn" a "king returning from exile to his own land."
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Hi All! So I have been reading the books but have been a little delinquent in keeping up with this thread, so I'm looking forward to reading through everyone's great thoughts on here.

I did have a thought - would anyone be opposed to taking an additional week as a "Wrap up" with some final thoughts from Fellowship before we move on to discussing The Two Towers? This would mean a week off from reading, which would us to get out any final thoughts on the book as a whole and also give people who might be a little behind some time to catch up. This would only push the reading schedule back by a week, so we wouldn't quite finish ROTK by the end of the year, but it felt like Book I went at kind of a leisurely pace while we FLEW through Book II. There was so much content in just a few week's time, I think having an extra week to soak it all in might be helpful. What do you all think?
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@Mojo - yes please!

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I totally agree! Hope to have some time today to finish reading. Had an extra busy week at work so not much time for reading.
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That sounds wonderful here as well -- school has begun again so I'll be reading a bit slower, too.
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@Androthelm - I'm not sure whether Galadriel's swan ship came first or if the Swanships of the Teleri came first in Tolkien's writing order. It could be nothing but I thought it was interesting.

I would agree that Aragorn does seem less confident than I remember. He seems to second-guess a lot and also puts off decision-making (like much of the Fellowship). I think he was really relying on Gandalf to lead them and he's a bit lost without him. It seems to be a theme of the Fellowship almost - decision-making and choices seem to be a recurring theme here. (Especially with Galadriel giving them all a "choice".) They are constantly faced with what choice to make. What is the right way to go? From Moria all the way up until the Anduin. Until Frodo finally has to make the ultimate choice and go it alone. (Or so he thinks til Sam turns up.)

@Eamila Bolger - I'm really intrigued by Frodo's red star. I think you might be right about the Eye of Sauron. It reminds me of one of my favorite passages much later in RotK where a very different star is seen by Frodo and Sam at a pivotal moment.

(Shameless plug) if you're interesting in exploring the passage of time in Tom B's house and Lothlorien, check out my Time Travel in Middle-earth thread. It was intended to be silly but actually took an interesting turn into a discussion on the passage of time and places where it seems to stand still.

The Great River and the Breaking of the Fellowship - just my brief thoughts so far. Mostly, I found it interesting how subtle and slow Boromir's "betrayal" is. In the movies (yep, I'm comparing the movies and books...sorry) its sort of right in your face almost starting with the Council of Elrond, but I felt Boromir fell to the Ring much more slowly (and believably) in the book. Its sad that it comes from a place of good intentions and love for Gondor. I can say for sure I have new appreciation for Boromir as a character.

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@Lailorn interesting -- I hadn't considered which originated things in writing order. Still, if we accept the version of Middle-Earth we are given as "canon" there is certainly... something to be made of it.

On the note about Boromir, I have mixed feelings about the book!Boromir versus film!Boromir. On the one hand, yes -- his betrayal is far more obvious in the movies (whereas in the books we essentially get Frodo realizing all of the sudden that Boromir might not have taken Elrond's guidance to heart even after there have been a number of clues dropped). On the other hand, the movie also does a better job of making that a... tragic moment. I was watching a Lindsay Ellis video recently (it might have been her Hobbit series? I can't remember -- but the Hobbit series is worth watching if y'all are interested in video essays / the way the sausage gets made in the film industry) and she remarked that Tolkien just "didn't care about Boromir" and so the movies had to flesh out his death. On the one hand, that didn't sit right with me -- Boromir meant a ton to me growing up, even before I'd seen the movies, and the implication that the author had been careless with him was hard to bite, but... on the other hand, there really isn't a ton to Boromir in the books, especially not in Fellowship (we get more later, when we meet his father and brother of course). So, I'm also partial to the movies -- which showed him developing relationships with the Hobbits, for instance, and gave him more heroic purpose outside the Snows of Caradhras and his own death.
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@Mojo I do feel like we flew through Book II. Crazy, rather opposite of the slow burn of Book I. Some of the outstanding questions I'm interested to discuss, before charging into The Two Towers, is:

Who was the main antagonist of Book II?
What is Tolkien symbolizing with height/tall characters?

@Lailorn @Androthelm, great thoughts about Boromir. I admit he's not my favorite character anymore, but I would still disagree with Lindsay Ellis that "Tolkien didn't care about Boromir." The movies I think do well to portray a softer, more like able character by showing a closer connection to Merry and Pippin. I was surprised in this read a long, you really don't see that bond with Boromir and other members of the Fellowship. There is that moment on Caradhras, where Boromir's strength saves them, and Pippin "marvels" at his strength. There is a couple tiny moments in The Great River where Boromir is joking with Gimli, which seems like friends ribbing each other. But that's pretty much all I can remember, the other parts are Boromir's noted disagreement during the Council of Elrond, objecting to just about every path the Fellowship chose to take, getting noticeably anxious and odd after Lothlorien.

A few things I'll point out though to disagree with Lindsay Ellis' argument (and maybe restore some hope and good feelings to Lailorn and Androthelm regarding Boromir's character :smile: )...

I was always fascinated by what other characters say and react about Boromir's death, after learning about it in the books. Now, we haven't gotten to those parts in the read a long yet, so I don't want to spoil everything (they're just parts I remember fondly from my years as Boromir being my favorite character). Pay attention to what Pippin, Gandalf, and Eomer all say when learning about Boromir's death. Also, pay attention to what Aragorn doesn't say, since he was the last to speak with Boromir, and it's noted he keeps some things secret (when telling Gandalf about it). I've heard the argument that Tolkien seems to be following the theme of memorializing Boromir. After someone's death there is a common belief people don't want to "speak ill of the dead", so what people say after Boromir's death is almost like a memorial service where the characters only highlight the positive things. However, that means there were good things to admire about Boromir.

In reading The Breaking of the Fellowship this time, I love the highlight on Sam's character. This is a lovely chapter for Sam's development. It's clear he notices something off about Boromir's behavior:

'Now where's he got to?' cried Sam, looking worried. 'He's been a bit queer lately, to my mind...'
and
'Whoa, Sam Gamgee!' he said aloud. 'Your legs are too short, so use your head! Let me see now! Boromir isn't lying, that's not his way; but he hasn't told us everything...'

Sam's noticed a change in Boromir, which you can look at negatively regarding Boromir's character, but also point to that it is different. Even though we might not "see" the softer Boromir in the books that gets portrayed in the movie, I think this points to there was that softer side. Sam notices the change that comes of Boromir, which means that is different from whatever Sam previously observed about Boromir. He also adds later. "Boromir isn't lying, that's not his way.", which in my opinion, puts Boromir in a different category than Smeagol/Gollum.

If I may jump ahead briefly to the next chapter, Boromir does tell Aragorn everything:

'I tried to take the Ring from Frodo, he said 'I am sorry. I have paid.' - The Departure of Boromir

In a thread from KingODuckingham's archive there's a thread discussing Gollum and Grima. My argument was that yes I have pity for those 2 characters, because they were exploited by evil 'dark lords,' but I believed they were also evil and were not "redeemed" characters. My argument was based on Grima and Gollum's inability to accept personal responsibility. Gollum's mind "it was his birthday, and Deagol ought to have given him the Ring as a birthday present, despite already getting a birthday present from Deagol." Grima repeatedly tries to say "Saruman made me do it." Gollum and Grima blame other people for their bad choices. Boromir clearly accepts personal responsibility: "I tried to take the Ring...I am sorry. I have paid.". Which tells me a lot about his personal character and purposefully sets him apart from Gollum and Grima.
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Oh thank you for that @Boromir88. You do your namesake a service. Honestly, I don't necessarily agree with Lindsay Ellis's take (it's also a small, offhand comment as part of a much larger video)--but it was jarring to read back through these chapters and remember how much of Boromir's screen-time, as it were, is movie-addition.

On an related note, since we're bleeding a bit further into next week's reading, I have a question for anybody who wants to answer (or think about it when we come back to Two Towers. Why do we think Tolkien chose to split the Breaking of the Fellowship between two books as he did, so that the second book (or rather, the third book, the first of the second volume) begins in the heat of things for Aragorn. Was it simply to place an emphasis on Frodo's journey? Did he just like the pacing of sticking with Sam, and hearing about the aftermath of the orcs in the woods later? What do y'all think?
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To start with your question, @Androthelm, I think that maybe Tolkien wants to emphasize on the ring and it's bearer most. That's what it all started with, and there it now end. We have seen it all start with a small group, we've seen the group grow and now it's just Sam and Frodo again, with the ring. The ring will travel on to the East, to Mordor. Next to that, it's of course a major cliffhanger: what will happen next? Where did the others go and what are they doing? How will Sam and Frodo survive without the help of the Fellowship?

I loved reading that last chapter and especially the focus on Boromir, Frodo and Sam.
I've been a fan of Boromir all the time and re-reading didn't change that. It's so logical, or so it seems. Imagine arriving at this magical Elven place after traveling and getting lost for so long. There, in the presence of mighty Elves, Dwarves and a perhaps soon to be King and even the Halflings from your dream, it may be 'easy' to make a promise about the destination of the ring. But as they traveled on, closer and closer to 'home', the love for his people and his father will have become bigger and the memory of Imladris smaller. He knows that so far they were able to hold back the enemy. And with a mighty weapon they will surely succeed. I seem to remember that I read somewhere that it irritates him that stewards can't become kings anymore. He knows he would be a good one. His goal doesn't lie in saving Middle Earth, he wants to save his own land which is logical too. It may be hard to believe for him that this ring could have power over him or Denethor. He doesn't see that it already has... Frodo sees it. Sam sees it. In the end Boromir sees it too. It's sad that he doesn't hear how Gimli and Legolas and Aragorn had planned to come to Minas Tirith with him. He seems to be lonely in his choices and the others wonder what he has done wrong after they find out that Frodo is 'lost'. They have no idea what struggle he just went through.

As for Frodo: all this time he was carried by the strength and the safety of the Fellowship. Now he has to make a choice and is scared to do so. So logical! The insight he gets into Middle Earth is fascinating, I forgot all that. How he rejoiced in seeing the white towers of Minas Tirith, but also the enemy gathering in Umbar, in Harad and lots of other places. Wow, wouldn't Denethor and Theoden have loved to have that strategic information. But it shows Frodo that he will not be safe anywhere. It helps him make this choice. I admire his wisdom and strength and determination.

Then Sam: dear, dear Sam, you know your master so well. I'd almost say: all we need in life is a Sam next to us ;-) He doesn't rush off like (as we say in Dutch) a chicken without a head, or at least not too long. He takes time to think before continuing to act, and makes the best decision he could. Good thing he did, for do I understand well here that Frodo left without any supplies? Sam helps him gather what they need and suddenly, Frodo's task seems to be a bit lighter. For Sam is there. They have no idea what they are going to face, but they are willing to go. A wonderful ending for the first two books.


So let's look at those other questions that @Androthelm asked.
Who was the main antagonist of Book II?
What is Tolkien symbolizing with height/tall characters?
I'll make a start with that second one.
It could have something to do with the time Tolkien lived in - World War I and II, with bigger powers trying to help out smaller ones.
But it could also just be part of the larger world he was creating: a phantasy world in which all kinds of creatures lived, each with their own strength and skill. I'll have to do some more thinking on it.
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Getting to some of the cliffhanger questions...

Who was the main antagonist of Book II?
This is a rather difficult one to answer, because I can't say the Ringwraiths. I don't think you can say Saruman, because it's not figured out that his orcs attacked the Fellowship until The Two Towers. I suppose I could argue Sauron, but with his Ringwraiths out of commission, he still seems "far off" pulling the strings from the background.

So, after Book II is exclusively focused on the Fellowship (and their chances seemed rather gloomy from the outset), I think it's the Ring. As both an external antagonist, almost as if it was a character on its own and an internal antagonist.

Externally, evil seems drawn to Frodo. Gandalf thinks to himself that's why the Watcher honed in on Frodo. The orc captain in Moria is described in a sort of frenzy (drives back Boromir, dodges Aragorn's strike) to get to Frodo. Gollum's picked up the trail of the Ring. And then in the last chapter Boromir falls to the Ring's temptation. All these external forces are noticeably influenced by the Ring to zero-in on Frodo.

Internally, Frodo has a battle of his own that he must overcome in The Breaking of the Fellowship:

And suddenly he felt the Eye. There as an eye in the Dark Tower that did not sleep. He knew that it had become aware of his gaze. A fierce eager will was there. It leaped towards him; almost like a finger he felt it, searching for him. Very soon it would nail him down, know just exactly where he was. Amon Lhaw it touched. It glanced upon Tol Brandir - he threw himself form the seat, crouching, covering, his head with his grey hood.

He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you? He could not tell. Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!

The two powers strove in him. For a moment, perfectly balanced between their piercing points, he writhed, tormented. Suddenly he was aware of himself again, Frodo, neither the Voice nor the Eye: free to choose, and with one remaining instant in which to do so. He took the Ring off his finger...


When Frodo puts on the Ring, two external powers are striving within him, the Eye, and the Voice (Spoiler: it's discovered later the Voice is Gandalf). It's interesting that both of these powers are causing Frodo pain he "writhed" and "tormented" "between their piercing points." It's an important point that Frodo becomes aware of himself, and freely chooses to take off the Ring.

What is Tolkien symbolizing with height/tall characters?

I would say frequently Tolkien uses height to convey both positive and negative images. Galadriel's and Celeborn's height has been commented on. Aragorn's tall (his nicknames "Longshanks" and "Strider" appear to be meant as insults). Eomer's noted as being the tallest among the eored. Faramir is taller than his companions. I wonder if height is generally used to symbolize "leadership?" Height as a symbol for a commanding and kingly presence?

However, he will also use height to convey fear and intimidating strength. For example, Boromir in this last chapter:

He laid his hand on the hobbit's shoulder in friendly fashion; but Frodo felt the hand trembling with suppressed excitement. He stepped quickly away, and eyed with alarm the tall Man, nearly twice his height and many times his match in strength.

Boromir's height advantage is commented on here to put Frodo in a scary situation. Boromir's much taller and much stronger. However, sometimes height and strength of body, doesn't always mean strength of mind. Frodo uses his head to make sure a large stone stays between him and Boromir.

And Sauron is not meant to be seen as a gigantic, but the form he takes is taller:

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance. -Letter 246

I think this shows both the positive and negative symbolism of height. His later form was "that of a man of more than human stature" this form is described as "very terrible" (but not gigantic). His earlier form, when he could assume a fair form, his height is described as a "commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanor and countenance."
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@Boromir88 The Ring being the antagonist for Book two is, I think, objectively true, and this is one of my favourite things about the story. The Ring is always there. From Bilbo's birthday party to the moment it is destroyed, it is always there. And despite what immediate threats come about - be they the Black Riders in the first book, or subsequent bad guys in the books coming up, The Ring's ever-presence is almost suffocating. And then, as you go along through the journey, it isn't just suffocating but it is also effectively the ultimate antagonist throughout - it doesn't matter that the Hobbits escaped the Black Riders to Bree and beyond to Rivendell, and it doesn't matter that they got through all the evil that was in Moria, and it doesn't matter that Frodo escaped Boromir (and Frodo and Sam got away cleanly from the pursuing Orcs) in The Breaking of The Fellowship - all these things are "bad guys," yes, but they are overcome, yet The Ring is still around Frodo's neck. Sauron himself could walk out into battle yet the main antagonist would still be The Ring independent of him. And it is sort of a microcosm of The Third Age as a whole - all these terrible things continue to throw themselves at the word, but The Ring marches on, never yielding, subtle and manipulative, just doing what it wants and the Free People seemingly always complicit. Introducing The Ring as "The big bad guy" at the start is terrific - and when Tolkien throws bad guys after bad guys after it, that the good guys defeat only to face more bad guys, heightens the omnipotence of The Ring. He makes it feel like it doesn't matter who you defeat, there's always some else worse coming, and there always will be if The Ring exists. Evil doesn't zero in on Frodo, it zeroes in on The Ring, which happens to be around Frodo's neck.

It is truly brilliant - you face evil, you defeat evil, but evil will always exist around you because true evil is around your neck. It is near enough omnipotent and it must be kept hanging around your neck. Brilliant.

edit: - edited formatting

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While I agree with @Woggy Hardbotom and @Boromir88 about the omni-present threat of the Ring, I have another (admittedly far-flung) concept for who the true opponent of Book II may be. I'll argue that it was The Eye, in a broad sense -- the Enemy's Gaze. Of course, Sauron is and will continue to be a threat, it is in Book II that we see an increased emphasis on the danger of attracting attention, even if you are powerful. While, of course, the Hobbits had to stealth their way across the width of Eriador in Book I, we did also see that the Black Riders (from whom they were hiding) could be driven off (briefly, anyway) by Aragorn or Gandalf, or bested by the powers of Rivendell.

In Book II, the catspaws of evil are more varied -- the crebain, the snows of Caradhras, the orcs of Moria, the Balrog, and finally our first glimpse of the "winged shadow" and the orcs on the east side of the river -- but their role is more consistent, as drawing the attention of some distant power is more dangerous than the violence of the moment. In turn...

- the Crebain are just birds, but must be hidden from to avoid (Saruman's?) attention.
- the Fellowship draws the attention of something on Caradhras -- though whether that is Saruman, Sauron, or the mountain itself is left ambiguous by the book.
- (Honorable Mention: the Wargs who hunt them in Hollin, but who are driven off once they attack)
- the orcs of Moria are avoided for the first several days of the Fellowship's passage -- Pippin alerts them, at which point they become a threat.
- the Balrog is, of course, linked to "awakening" -- alerted alongside the Orcs (although, it occurs to me--perhaps Gandalf drew attention as well, with his magic to bring fire on the mountain?)
- the Winged Shadow is hunting, as are the Orcs on the east bank of the river -- as is, now that I think about it, Gollum, for as long as the Fellowship travels under the mountain and along the river. Each of these things is easily "dispelled" (shot down, killed by the score, and scared off respectively), but the attention represents a growing threat.

This culminates, of course, with Frodo's great vision from the peak of Amon Hen-- and his vision of the Eye, which is searching, always searching. They have only barely evaded its gaze for so long. This issue of "sight" is of course significant to the whole narrative, and will be expanded on via the Seeing Stones in Two Towers, but I do think it's fair to say that it represents a central concern of Book II (more so, anyway, than Book I, where the Black Riders were threats in and of themselves, and not just scouts.
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@Boromir88 - I absolutely love what you said about Boromir being redeemed. :thumbs: I totally agree.

My interpretation of the choice to end the FotR with Frodo and Sam leaving is pretty straightforward; the book is called the Fellowship of the Ring and in that moment, it is broken when the two of them leave. I think it also makes narrative sense in that we are left to wonder what happens next as they split off but only get to see their independent journeys in the next book.
I also wonder if the publisher had anything to do with it - we know Tolkien meant for them to be six books not three. Did they also make him alter where each book ended?

I also wanted to add - I think Sam is incredibly perceptive. He's often made out to be maybe not so smart, but he seems to have an intuitive understanding of others. Not only did he seem to know something was up with Boromir, but he knew all about Frodo's plans to leave the Shire way back at the start of the book and again when Frodo means to leave the rest of the Fellowship. And he doesn't just observe but he acts on what he sees. Don't have the book handy but I think it was him who first comments on Boromir's absence.

I think the only person he seems wrong about, and was very suspicious of, was Farmer Maggott. :lol:

As for the antagonist of Book II - I initially thought the Ring as well for many of the reasons stated above. It seems to me it is the reason so many of the bad things happen to them which seem to be nonstop. The suggestion of The Eye is interesting, too, and it gets a lot of mentions in Book II. Its certianly less obvious than the antagonist of Book I but I guess I lean more toward the Ring just because it is what ultimately causes the Fellowship to break (through Boromir's attempts to take it and Frodo's determination to see the task through). That seems to me to be one of the main arcs of Book II - the formation and bonding and then breaking of this group of people.

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Hey, just to confirm -- are we moving on to Book III this week, or next? Obviously it'll just be whenever the next thread gets posted, but I'm trying to schedule out some reading what with classes and thesis research.
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@Androthelm I'd love to continue! Next week would be fine for me. Couldn't wait and started on the first chapters of The Two Towers two weeks ago, but I'll need to reread I am afraid.
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Good to hear it @Eamila Bolger. I'm excited to continue as well -- though I guess in the end it's up to @Mojo, as threadrunner? (One way or another I suspect I'll be starting Two Towers soon :wink: )
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I haven't seen @Mojo around for a while, hopefully he's doing well. I'm ready to keep on going with the read along. If there aren't any serious objections (and no one hears from Mojo), on Sunday I can be the thread runner for The Two Towers. On Sunday I can post a reading schedule. I believe TTT is not as many pages as FOTR (and Book 4 definitely appears shorter)...keep it around 40-50 pages/week?
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I may have started TTT already, too. :lol:

@Boromir88 - I think that might be a good plan. I can ask Mojo on discord if you like. I am betting he's pretty busy at the moment and might even appreciate passing the hat to someone else? And thank you for offering.

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I would be willing to join in on Sunday as I have only just finished FoTR on my own if we don't hear from Mojo
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I'm still back in the Council of Elrond ... been super busy this month, back at work. I guess I'll have to let y'all go on without me. Might post my thoughts when I get round to them, but am kinda disconnected now.
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@Lirimaer sorry to hear you're feeling disconnected! There's always room to chat about the earlier chapters if you're ever up to it :grin:

I would also be up for moving onward. I hope Mojo is alright!
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Just a note I haven't heard back yet but I'm sure a new thread will be fine! I don't anticipate being able to keep up as well right now so shorter sections would be fine with me.

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@Mojo Do you think you could rename the threads without particular chapter names now the main read-along group have gone onward? I think for latecomers (and slackers like myself) this might signal a more open invitation than leaving them with the final chapter/wrap-up titles.
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Eamila Bolger wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:13 pm
Farewell to Lórien

5) The gift giving is such a wonderful part of the tale. [...] Galadriel seems to know what everyone needs or want. She is so wise and so much more than a royal highness. She knows how to ‘come close’ to her guests.

6) I wonder by the way why Tolkien after Galadriel’s song speaks of ‘lands in exile’?? Does anyone know?
On (5), well i think you are allowing the Lady too much grace. Having met the eye of each of the Company upon their arrival, and offering before each something he sorely wanted against the danger of their present path, seeing the naked self of each, the least she can do is give each a decent present on their departure!

6) is curious. In my English text I do not see anything about 'lands in exile' after Galadriel's song, though this passage concludes with a stirring paragraph about, as Frodo looks back after the Company have stepped back into the stream of time, that Galadriel looks neither magical nor terrible but as do Elves when still seen by mortals today - creatures of another time, a lost long ago. Maybe your (Dutch?) translation renders something here into terms of exile? Or maybe I am looking in the wrong place in the chapter?
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Androthelm wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:06 pm If I can pull WAY away from the text at hand for a moment, there's a German philosopher named Martin Buber who published a book called "I and Thou" which argues that there are two broad ways we can engage with the world around us -- in a toxic, possessive "I-It" (where we think mostly about the power or value which will be conferred to us by our relationship with a person or object) and in a mutual, respectful "I-thou" (where we recognize the worth of another person or object in relationship to us but not in our possession). Long story short, Gimli's treasuring of the hair -- think, especially, when he wonders if gold will even be worthy of holding the Lady's gift -- is respectful and recognizes its value without requiring that value to be extracted for the owner.
Wow! Martin Buber and J.R.R. Tolkien! But it reads right. The difference between art and necromancy may come down to a choice of language - one that claims ownership of the world around and another that respects things as others apart from themselves.
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Eamila Bolger wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:13 pm The mirror of Galadriel

1) Like @Boromir88 I noticed Frodo asks Galadriel why he cannot see the other ringbearers when he puts on the ring. The answer fascinates me too, but there is something else. She tells him that he hasn’t tried yet and that he has put the ring on only three times so far. Does this mean that she (and the other Elvish ringbearers??) could see Frodo when he put on that ring? How else would she know? It would explain why she seems to know so much about Frodo and his quest when she cannot tell what happened to Gandalf since she cannot ‘see’ beyond her own borders.
My bold. We cannot doubt the significance of the two Rings in this meeting of two who bear a Ring of Power, in which one sees the Eye and the other knows what he saw and says it is also in her mind. But we do not need a-spying with the Ring (or even her Mirror) on the hobbit to explain the Lady's knowledge of Frodo's history with the One Ring. This is their second meeting - the meeting in which Frodo Baggins now tempts and so sees the moment of choice and so sees the Lady (which is what he had asked for when Sam had said he wanted to see some elf-magic). But on their first meeting the Lady Galadriel had taken the gaze of the hobbit and looked into - and shown to him - his heart. 'Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting.' What other test of Frodo's heart could there be than showing him the One Ring that he carries?
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Eamila Bolger wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:14 am I am almost back at where I should be in reading :-)

Lothlorien
Well, if we are still looking at a parallel between book 1 and 2, here is a good one. Lothlorien and the House of Tom Bombadil: the two only places in Middle Earth where time seems to stand still and the evil does not yet seem to have a grip on.
Yes. Reading this through the HOME volumes in terms of composition it very much feels that Tolkien is revisiting the house of Tom Bombadil but now making the enchantment specifically elvish. This recasting takes two primary forms, i think: the voice of Tom Bombadil is transmuted into an elvish vision of enchantment - from sound of mouth and ear to image of the eye and imagination; and the Lady becomes an actress in a drama of temptation and fall that Bombadil stands removed from (Bombadil asks to see the Ring, shows it has no effect on him, and gives it back; Frodo freely offers the One Ring to the Lady, whose heart, she does not deny, has long called to it; the fate of Middle-earth now hangs on her choice.

The Lady is a perfect picture of 'elvish magic' and this means (somehow) she is drawn inside the story where Bombadil's voice speaks (somehow) from outside the story of the hobbits.

Hope you'all don't object to my flurry of responding to your thoughts of the (recent) past. I'm looking for @Androthelm on the Lady as Perilous, which I will now find without further distraction.
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Lailyn wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:14 pm
In The Mirror of Galadriel...
Galadriel presumably offers each of them a choice in this chapter. We are told each member was offered “something that he greatly desired.”
We get good insight when Sam says “‘If you want to know, I felt as if I hadn’t got nothing on, and I didn’t like it. She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with - with a bit of garden of my own.’”
I, too, wonder what the others were offered.
@Androthelm, I think I am looking in the wrong thread. In the meanwhile, though, despite promising to avoid temptation in the post above, I want to highlight this question which, in the case of Frodo, is answered in the sequel. When Sam is walking with Frodo in Lorien and says he would dearly like to see some elf-magic, Frodo says merely that he wishes 'to see the Lady, again.' Whatever was offered to Frodo Baggins in the seeming question of the Lady when she looked inside him, evidently he felt the matter had not yet been concluded. Frodo's actions, on this second meeting, surely draw before our eyes what has already passed between him and the Lady on their first meeting, only putting the same question back to her?
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I am returning way back to this discussion to just add that I was pointed to some more interesting stuff about the White Council members and naming of it:

...and in that time was first made the Council of the Wise that is called the White Council, and therein were Elrond and Galadriel and Círdan, and other lords of the Eldar, and with them were Mithrandir and Curunír. (The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power)

So, The Silm confirms that Cirdan was a member, along with Elrond, Galadriel and "other lord of the Eldar." Although those 3 are the only confirmed Eldar. Then also "Mithrandir and Curunir," so apparently not Radagast or the Blue Wizards?

At this time the first Council was held*, and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and appointed him to be his vice-regent in Eriador...

*The text was emended to read "the first White Council." In the Tale of Years the formation of the White Council is given under the year 2463 of the Third Age; but it may be that the name of the Council of the Third Age deliberately echoed that of this Council held long before, the more, especially as several of the chief members of the one had been members of the other. (Unfinished Tales: Galadriel and Celeborn)


It appears there was an earlier "White Council" in the 2nd Age, and the formation of the White Council in the 3rd Age echoes the earlier White Council. It would also seem like an Elrond thing to do, considering how we know he likes being symbolic when naming groups. :wink:
A Loquacious Loreman.
he/him
Tis the season of Sean Bean prequel shows

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