Lore help please?

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Newborn of Imladris
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I am hoping my Plaza friends and colleagues may be able to help me pin down a reference that I simply can't trace after lots of searching the texts and surfing the web.

I'm writing about Galadriel and need to refer to the idea that in Doriath, she was taught by Melian and gained skills that had come from Yavanna: notably weaving and the making of lembas. Darned if I can find where Tolkien said this, tho' I feel I did glimpse it at some point. (Moral: write down your refs as you go along.)

Maybe we could keep this thread to use for any of us who has lost their references?
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Esquire of The Mark
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Here’s what I’ve got for you @Saranna!

Pgs. 130-131 of the Silmarillion (pages might not be the exact same for you but it’s in Chapter 13, Of The Return of The Noldor)

“Galadriel his sister went not with him to Nargothrond, for in Doriath dwelt Celeborn, kinsman of Thingol, and there was great love between them. Therefore she remained in the Hidden Kingdom, and abode with Melian, and of her learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-Earth.

Pgs. 147-49 of the Silmarillion (Chapter 15, Of The Noldor In Beleriand)

She and Melian have a conversation that lasts about a page and a half.

Pg. 168 of the Silmarillion (Chapter 17, Of The Coming of Men Into The West)

Melian and Galadriel have a brief exchange.

I hope this helps!

Councillor of Imladris
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Hmm ... excellent question, @Saranna.

I've tried looking into various texts, but I haven't been able to find it. The main books I have searched (using either my Kindle editions or the indices) are
  • Unfinished Tales
  • Parma Eldalamberon 17 – Words, Phrases and Passages in Various Tongues in The Lord of the Rings
  • The Peoples of Middle-earth (esp. ch. XV “Of Lembas”)
  • The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien
  • J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia, Michael Drout (ed), entry “Lembas” by Thomas Honegger
  • The War of the Jewels
  • The Road Goes Ever On
  • The Children of Hurin
Additionally, I have skimmed quickly through the articles in Vinyar Tengwar issues 35 through 50, searching for anything that might pertain on this.

All in vain.

I also note that a Google search for “"galadriel" "lembas"” doesn't turn up any references, and the Tolkien Gateway (normally a credible source) or the Encyclopedia of Arda do not claim that Galadriel learned the art of baking lembas from Melian, but merely notes that Galadriel hands them out.

One should, of course, be very careful about such conclusions, but if there is textual evidence explicitly stating that Galadriel learned the art of baking lembas from Melian, then it is, indeed, very obscure.
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Doorwarden of The Mark
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@Saranna I think it's in UT. I've got a copy of the 40th anniversary edition coming in the mail so when I read it I'll let you know if it's in there.
Don't you just hate it when you can't find a quote? I've been looking for this Freud quote for 5 years now, I know I wrote it down in my Honours notebook back in 2016 but unfortunately I threw the notebook in the bin :facepalm:

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Greetings @Saranna, excellent idea to keep a thread for anyone who has lost references. I definitely know what you mean. :smile:

Like @Troelsfo, I've been unable to find any reference explicitly stating Galadriel learned the art of baking lembas from Melian. I think that's something which can be inferred splicing together quotes though...

From the Chapter Of Lembas in The Peoples of Middle-earth:

From the ear to the wafer none were permitted to handle this grain, save those elven-women who were called Yavannildi (or by the Sindar the Ivonwin), the maidens of Yavanna; and the art of the making of the lembas, which they learned of the Valar, was a secret among them, and so ever has remained.

Then in a note 12 from Unfinished Tales: Narn I Hin Hurin:
"...Beleg's coming to Menegroth (where he received the sword Anglachel from Thingol and lembas from Melian).

And there are many references to Galadriel being a pupil of Yavanna and Melian. So, I think it's quite reasonable to connect the dots from lembas > Yavannildi > Melian > Galadriel, but I was unable to find a direct reference. Maybe searching for Yavannildi/Ivonwin will lead to a more direct reference?
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Warrior of Imladris
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'Another gift I will give to you, Cúthalion,' said Melian, 'that shall be your help in the wild, and the help also of those whom you choose.' And she gave him store of lembas, the waybread of the Elves, wrapped in leaves of silver, and the threads that bound it were sealed at the knots with the seal of the Queen, a wafer of white wax shaped as a single flower of Telperion; for according to the customs of the Eldalië the keeping and giving of lembas belonged to the Queen alone. In nothing did Melian show greater favour to Túrin than in this gift; for the Eldar had never before allowed Men to use this waybread, and seldom did so again.
~ Of Túrin Turambar, Sil

The lembas of Melian is mentioned a couple more times. This verse does explain why Galadriel, as reigning female ruler of her own realm, was traditionally in a position to share it with whomsoever she pleased.
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Boromir88 wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:19 am Greetings @Saranna, excellent idea to keep a thread for anyone who has lost references. I definitely know what you mean. :smile:
Oh, dear, yes! :smile:

Thank Eru for Kindle! And for being an old fart who, in my distant youth, learned to use indices effectively! :lol: (a very important skill – at least until the rest of The History of Middle-earth, The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion, and a few other essential works can be had electronically :wink: )
Boromir88 wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 12:19 am Like @Troelsfo, I've been unable to find any reference explicitly stating Galadriel learned the art of baking lembas from Melian. I think that's something which can be inferred splicing together quotes though...
I do think that it is a very reasonable inference, that I also considered carefully, but I ended up finding it far from certain.

While Galadriel was not the “highest among the elven-women of any people, great or small” (The Peoples of Middle-earth, XV, p. 404) while she was in Valinor, she was, as you say, also a pupil of Yavanna (Unfinished Tales, part 2, IV, p.304).

I, therefore, think that we cannot rule out the possibility that Galadriel had learned the craft directly from its Valarin source.
“The love of Faery is the love of love” J.R.R. Tolkien

Istari Savant
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I've seen this idea pop up quite a few places recently online, never with a reference. I don't recall it being said so frequently before. My guess is somebody read the Encyclopedia of Arda article as being hard fact (contrary to @Troelsfo, I would say the EoA article implies the idea as true, and by neglecting any association with Yavanna certainly doesn't do anything to provide an alternative) and repeated it, and now we're experiencing the early days of a bit of misinformation that will either fizzle or spread.

Newborn of Imladris
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Thanks so much all of you for you kind - and erudite - responses. I found something in UT but I didn't see an actual reference to lembas, this may be one of those things that's become an alternative fact (last reference ever to a certain person!)
@Ta'leus Shieldsong I think yours is the best, I'd forgotten where that was too, and though it's general it fits just fine with that I need to say.
You are all wonderful!!!!
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Glad to be of service! I don't often have much to contribute to lore conversations except in regard to scouring books and indexes for information. Haha.

Newborn of Imladris
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Just want to thank you all for your help; finally got the article off to the editors yesterday, Now it's the waiting game to see if it's up to standard, and if it is, there's the wait for publication. :grouphug:
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I remember @Saranna starting this thread and thinking at the time it would be great to have a thread for lost references. To get the collective help of the Plaza members on lost references.

I'm searching for information about The Last Alliance, because I seem to recall a quote about how all peoples, creatures and beast enslaved fought in that war. It stood out to me because I liked the phrase word pairing "beast enslaved," but I can't seem to find it. I also remember there are some tidbits about Oropher's elves taking severe casualties in the Battle of Dagorlad. If I had to guess these references would be found in the same place, because there was so little written about the Last Alliance, but I can't seem to remember where either references are.

So **bump** and asking for lore help, please? :grin:
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@Boromir88 just wanted to ping you and say I am on the hunt for your quotations... partially because I think I recall them and partially because I recall them slightly differently :wink: so we'll have to see what the text turns up.
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Alright y'all will have to pardon the double-post since I'm not sure if edit tags properly notify, but:

@Boromir88 I've found the version of the quote that I recall: from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, page 352:
From Imladris they crossed the Misty Mountains by many passes and marched down the River Anduin, and so came at last upon the host of Sauron on Dagorlad, the Battle Plain, which lies before the gate of the Black Land. All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.
It's not quite what you'd said, but it something similar -- any chance this is what you meant?

As for Oropher, he doesn't appear in the index to the Silm, so the book I have on hand is less helpful. I think I remember what you said, though — something about his distrust of Gil-galad resulting in attaching too soon — and a glance at Tolkien gateway gives us this wiki summary:
The Silvan Elves were strong and brave, but despite having poor armour and weapons in comparison with the Noldor, Amdír and Oropher were unwilling to submit to the supreme command of Gil-galad and as such they suffered heavy losses in the War of the Last Alliance. In the very first assault upon Mordor, Oropher and other brave and hasty Silvan Elves rushed forward before Gil-galad gave the signal to charge. Oropher himself was killed soon afterwards, whilst two-thirds of his army perished throughout the course of the war. Upon Sauron's defeat the remnants of the army returned to Greenwood under the command of his son Thranduil.
Now, they're citing that to Unfinished Tales, particularly the History of Galadriel and Celeborn... and unfortunately, my copy is something like 1500 miles away from me right now. But hopefully that helps you track it down!
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@Androthelm, ahh thank you! Yes the first one is for sure the one I was thinking about...for some reason I still seem to remember a quote about "beasts enslaved" but it's entirely possible that quote has nothing to do with the Last Alliance :lol:

And I will be able to find the Oropher reference eventually, because I do have a copy of Unfinished Tales handy. Thank you for the quick action and research. :thumbs:
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Glad to help! You happened to hit on two topics that I've always loved thinking about, so it wasn't much trouble :)
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Boromir88 wrote: Sat Sep 03, 2022 2:37 pmfor some reason I still seem to remember a quote about "beasts enslaved" but it's entirely possible that quote has nothing to do with the Last Alliance :lol:
You are perhaps thinking of a line from the ROTK chapter "The Field of Cormallen," describing the scene at the Battle of the Morannon after the destruction of the Ring:
The Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.
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That would likely be the one, thanks @Eldy Dunami :grin:
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Newborn of Imladris
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@Boromir88 it seems I have returned home too late from my wonderful weekend at Oxonmoot and the reference is already found. Well remembered, @Androthelm
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All credit to @Eldy Dunami for tracking down the correct quote:) but thank you. I do also really want to know more about the dwarves who fought for Sauron, but that's secondary.
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