Black Breath and Disembodied Nazgul v 2.0

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Ent Ancient
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Well, I found this so why not give it a second life ... :shrug:


I was wondering about the Black Breath recently and did a little reading on it. I’m curious if we know anything or anyone has theories or thoughts on whether repeated exposure to the Black Breath would build up some kind of immunity, build up to “worse” experiences, or neither?

The only example I could think of someone being exposed more than once was Merry (based on: once in Bree, once at Weathertop and lastly vs. the Witch-King-- correct me if I’m wrong). I imagine Frodo probably was also “exposed” more than once though I’ll be honest, I didn’t go back to check and I also wonder if his experience would be amplified or affected in some way by his possession of the Ring.

While doing that digging, I came across this quote that the Nazguls’
“chief weapon was terror. This was actually greater when they were unclad and invisible; and it was greater also when they were gathered together.”
from The Hunt for the Ring: Other Versions of the Story, Unfinished Tales

Which led to more questions and made me wonder... why? Do they need to expend some energy to maintain their disguise as Black Riders which reduces their ability to instill terror? Do their rings of power help them to do so?

And finally, that led me to a hypothetical: what would happen if a Nazgul lost (or otherwise removed) one of their Rings?

These aren’t really very streamlined or yes-or-no questions and may only lead to conjecture, but I am curious what people think.

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I sadly do NOT have my response to it but I'll probably be better at collecting and rpesenting thoughts this go round lol

So First thing is Nazgul can't lose or remove their Rings - we see this really in the destruction of their forms Bruinen Ford where they were swept away and their forms were 'lost' THey weren't killed it was a mere setback - we see them come back stronger and more powerful so I think it is safe to assume that once the Rings power had taken them it basically becomes part of them on a permanent basis. Or more likely they become a part of that ring which only holds power until the one Ring is destroyed which is when all the rings of power lose their powers as the elven rings powers fade as well even though they were untouched (or until they are killed by semantics.)

As for why their terror would be greater when they were invisible or in greater number - People naturally have a fear of the unknown, not being able to see something tends to be the biggest unknown for people so it would make sense that if you give something a form you can define it you can know it it can be defeated. Lets face it if the Witch King had been prancing around on the battle field formless how the heck would Eowyn or Merry have known where to stab? They wouldn't. That would have been scary as heck - how do you kill an enemy you can't see and you don't know where they are with medieval technology?

And to hold a form when you are literally nothing probably takes a good amount of energy to do which means you need to be concentrating on that as well as terrorizing every one else.

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I think @Revered Grandmother has it right, especially on the reasoning for Nazgul's additional power alone and invisible. Consider more broadly that Sauron works in the shadows -- in fact, much of (two towers and return of the king especially) the books deals with convincing people to handle him directly because he will only get more powerful when allowed to move quietly and in secret.
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Lailyn wrote: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:59 pm made me wonder... why? Do they need to expend some energy to maintain their disguise as Black Riders which reduces their ability to instill terror?
I'd always imagined it like cell phone reception in a parking garage, naturally muted by being encased. Or, for a more direct analogy, the clothing does the same thing for the aura of terror that clothing does for body heat: keeps it in.

Ideas that it has something to do with perception on the part of those exposed to it, I think, miss the point. Because perception requires, tautologically, perception. If you needed to know the Nazgul was there in order to be extra scared because you can't see it, then why does 'The Hunt for the Ring' tell us about how, when they secretly (and without cloaks) started out, they were still a terror to 'all living things they passed near'? This is the only real time we ever see them do anything invisible and unclad. They don't make a habit of stripping off the cloaks in a crowded room throughout the story; we have no situations where you know they are there and you can't see them. Which is an interesting choice for someone writing invisible creatures into a story, which brings me to the big why. I think the whole idea that the fear is stronger without the cloaks was Tolkien's way of ensuring they couldn't disrobe in the middle of Bree and murder the hobbits, lest the whole town immediately jump out of bed and book it to Staddle. A plot hole fix, more than anything.

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Hmmm I'd argue that one can know something is NEAR and feel dread without knowing its exact location. We know they can go unclad so perhaps it is more something that Sauron exerts over them than their own choice which is why we don't see them namby pamby stripping and doing what they want. I believe they flee back to Sauron when they lose their original 'bodily' forms at the Bruinen.

For all we know Sauron probably thinks they are scarier in form (they can also weild swords) and could just be him living vicariously through them since he doesn't have a true body yet.

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Oh good questions and thoughts @Lailyn.
And finally, that led me to a hypothetical: what would happen if a Nazgul lost (or otherwise removed) one of their Rings?
If I can recall correctly, Sauron had already taken possession of the 9 rings and that's how he was able to exert his control even when he didn't have possession of the One. This is just speculation, but since reading UT: The Hunt for the Ring, to get a better idea about the Ringwraiths, this part has stood out:

At length they returned; but the summer was now far waned, and the wrath and fear of Sauron was mounting. When they came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dur conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay.

I think the Ringwraiths were incapable of disobedience, but it does show a different relationship with Sauron than I previously imagined. Sauron was clearly not happy with the Ringwraiths job performance after he sent them out to find "The Shire" and the Ring's location, so much so that he felt threats would entice them to do a better job. So despite their bond of loyalty and service, they were still capable of doing a job lazily (or Sauron believed they were doing a lazy job). What possible threats could have filled even the Witch-King with dread? Some sort of torment by holding possession of the 9 Rings?
Which led to more questions and made me wonder... why? Do they need to expend some energy to maintain their disguise as Black Riders which reduces their ability to instill terror? Do their rings of power help them to do so?
I think part of the reason for their disguises, and reducing the terror they could instill is because Sauron needed information. And it's hard to get information if you instill so much terror that people flee from the very sight of you, or if they're suddenly filled with terror and can't see you. In a way, it's like when the Dead came, even the men of Lamedon fled:

"But defenders and foes alike gave up the battle and fled when we came, crying out that the King of the Dead was upon them. Only Angbor, Lord of Lamedon, had the heart to abide us; and Aragorn bade him gather his folk and come behind, if they dared, when the Grey Host had passed." - Return of the King: The Last Debate

I wonder though, what would be the need of the robes after the flooding of the Bruinen? The Ringwraiths are no longer on an information gathering mission, they become weapons of terror in war.
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Thinking how the Army of the Dead caused both "defenders and foes" to flee, perhaps the Nazgul induce a similar terror? Perhaps, being clad in black robes suppresses the terror they induce so Sauron's soldiers don't flee from the battlefield as well?
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Boromir88 wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:13 am
I wonder though, what would be the need of the robes after the flooding of the Bruinen? The Ringwraiths are no longer on an information gathering mission, they become weapons of terror in war.
They are still technically looking for the Ring, yes they were intruments of terror in war, but they had that goal still, I doubt that Sauron would trust his ring to an orc, or anything lesser than a nazgul so thee would need a form - if the were to find Frodo and they were pure terror I feel like catching Frodo would be harder if his only thought was to get away from him.

Ent Ancient
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For the record, I get 0 marks for reading comprehension and yes, you are all correct, Sauron did indeed have the Nine Rings in his possession! :lol: See below for the sentence I apparently just skipped right over:
They were by far the most powerful servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he himself now held
- The Hunt for the Ring, Unfinished Tales

Your point about the dampening effect is really interesting, Elenhir, as well as the thought about the plot hole points. This seems to make the most logical sense to me, actually. Aside from your reference to them passing invisible and being a terror to “all living things they passed near”, I also found Boromir’s report of the attack on Osgiliath at the Council of Elrond as an “eye-witness account” of the unclad wraiths:
A power was there that we have not felt before. Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon.
- The Hunt for the Ring, Unfinished Tales (footnote 8, Notes, Other Versions of the Story)

From a story/plot angle, it seems to make sense from the author’s POV to clad them in robes in order to make them more vulnerable (for lack of better word) and visible to our characters even though they are much more powerful and terrifying while invisible. From an in-story/in-world perspective, my understanding of re-reading this chapter is that Sauron intended to keep the wraiths (and more importantly, their mission) secret. Keeping them invisible was advantageous to that mission until he had a greater need of haste to find the Shire and recover the Ring, so they were clad:
The Lord of Morgul therefore led his companions over Anduin, unclad and unmounted, and invisible to eyes, and yet a terror to all living things that they passed near. (...) and so into the Wold, and rumour of darkness and a dread of men knew now what went before them. They reached the west-shores of Anduin a little north of Sarn Gebir, as they had trysted; and there received horses and raiment that were secretly ferried over the River.
- The Hunt for the Ring, Unfinished Tales

(I think the nitty gritty details of this vary a bit depending on which version you read but overall it’s the same general idea.) Hmm. I’m still thinking about this and turning it over in my head...but does any of that make sense?


As for keeping them robed after their failed mission to the Shire, you could be right, Boro, about preventing fear in his own forces...we know that Gorbag at least wasn’t too fond of them:
‘Grr! Those Nazgûl give me the creeps. And they skin the body off you as soon as look at you, and leave you all cold in the dark on the other side. But He likes ‘em; they’re His favourites nowadays, so it’s no use grumbling.’
- (Gorbag), The Choices of Master Samwise, The Two Towers

Perhaps another element of keeping them visible is so they can fight and interact with the Seen world? Honestly, I have absolutely no idea of the mechanics or intricacies of the Seen vs. Unseen world in ME but if they are invisible, maybe they could not engage in warfare, while robed and armed, they could? I’m just making unsubstantiated guesses now but this comes back to Fuin pointing out that Eowyn and Merry would not know where to stab the Witch-King if he were invisible.

Now I am wondering (entirely hypothetical) what would/could have happened had they found the Ring while invisible. Could they have even taken it? At Weathertop, the Witch-King stabbed Frodo and incapacitated him but how could he have done so if he were an insubstantial form? Maybe having a form is required to physically obtain the Ring? (Let me say, in my honest opinion, unexplained fantasy-magic-stuff is good enough for me as to how they could have done it and fulfilled their primary purpose for Sauron.)

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Lailyn wrote:As for keeping them robed after their failed mission to the Shire, you could be right, Boro, about preventing fear in his own forces...we know that Gorbag at least wasn’t too fond of them:
Now that I've actually picked up where I last left off reading Lord of the Rings again all those months ago, I think I found some relevant quotes:

"They swarmed across like beetles. But it is the Black Captain that defeats us. Few will stand and abide even the rumour of his coming. His own folk quail at him, and they would slay themselves at his bidding." (Siege of Gondor)

The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices which uttered only his will and malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled above the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death. (The Siege of Gondor)


And during the siege itself there are several times it mentions orcs were recklessly driven forward, with no thought to their own lives, or being trampled by the great beasts pulling Grond. It has me thinking about a different topic, because I used to think Sauron was a masterful tactician/strategist in war, but I may have given him too much credit. :nod:
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Ent Ancient
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Aha! @Boromir88 thank you for pulling up those quotes!! So it seems even clad, their own allies were fearful of them. Am I interpreting that right?
Boromir88 wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:13 am And during the siege itself there are several times it mentions orcs were recklessly driven forward, with no thought to their own lives, or being trampled by the great beasts pulling Grond. It has me thinking about a different topic, because I used to think Sauron was a masterful tactician/strategist in war, but I may have given him too much credit. :nod:
I'd be interested in your further thoughts on that! But maybe not! Maybe he weighed the benefits of sending out his Nazgul, his mightiest servants, knowing his other servants might be lost in their terror and decided it was still worth it?
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