Our Views on Adaptations and Fanfiction

"As for myself," said Eomer, "I have little knowledge of these deep matters; but I need it not."
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This is the thread a short time ago I mentioned I wanted to start. I still haven't put all my thoughts together, but I might as well pose the questions I've been meaning to ask. I'm guessing this will primarily be focused on our reactions to Rings of Power, but I think it should be open to all adaptations of Tolkien, and fanfiction inspired by Tolkien.

I'll quote a comment from @Eldy Dunami that prompted the idea for this thread:
Tolkien drew a ton of inspiration from historical literary and mythological works, of course, but his treatment of industrialism (most things related to Sauron and Saruman), degradation of nature, colonialism (Númenor), the horrors of industrial warfare (the original version of the Fall of Gondolin), and other themes clearly mark his work as the product of a modern—specifically, 20th century—author. That's not a criticism; I think all art reflects the context its creator(s) lived in. Adaptations are no exception, so I'm not bothered by ROP being recognizably the product of 21st century writers. (bolding my emphasis)


That got me thinking (beyond the initial thought of "that's a good point") "all art reflects the context its creator(s) lived in." I agree that it's no different for adaptations, so I'm not surprised creators of adaptations and writers of fanfiction, inspired by Tolkien, will also have other influences when creating art. Yes, if you create Tolkien fanfiction, Tolkien is probably your largest influence, but like Tolkien, you are influenced by many factors. Readers, fans, critics of the art also bring their own experiences that color their opinions when reading any adaptation. I guess the questions I want to ask are really loaded, but perhaps we can put our brains together and get a few theories going.

What makes a "good" adaptation? What makes an adaptation "bad"? All adaptations change parts of the canon of what they're adapting. What makes one change to the canon more "acceptable" than others? How many "changes" to the canon are acceptable before you wonder can this even be called an adaptation? Is there some sort of scale? Like are some changes worse than others? And I'm just predicting there will be a variety of answers to these questions.

One final thing, that also prompted my thoughts. I enjoyed the Bakshi Lord of the Rings adaptation, even pantsless Aragorn and Viking Boromir never really bothered me. In Jackson's Lord of the Rings, I accepted a waffly Aragorn and a softer (plus strawberry-blonde wigged!) Boromir, because it made sense for the story Jackson was telling. Those characters wouldn't have worked in Tolkien's books, but the changes worked in the films, because it was consistent to their own setting. This is of course, all my opinion and I expect others will disagree. I had not seen the Rankin/Bass Hobbit adaptation and when I watched it recently, I really did not like it. I was quite bothered by the changes to the canon. I'll give it credit for wanting to make the story about Bilbo, but I particularly didn't like the conclusion. It was quite a poor conclusion (basically Gandalf says 8 of the dwarves died at the battle, but the only ones we know are Thorin and Bombur. We are left with no idea which dwarves died, because there's no scene of Bilbo with the surviving dwarves at the end. It's just Gandalf tells us 8 dwarves died, that's it. Bilbo goes home.) And it got me thinking why did that change bother me more than say a waffly-Aragorn did? I think it just comes down to good storytelling vs. bad storytelling (in my opinion). It's not the changes that bother me, it's wanting to have an explanation for why an adaptation changed something. And if you are going to change something, explain it better so it's consistent with the story you're trying to tell.
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Love this thread @Boromir88! I've been thinking a lot recently about the nature of adaptations too and a lot of what you've just stated really hits home. The internal consistency of any piece of story telling is paramount and adaptations are no different. Changes have to be made medium to medium in storytelling and therefore the changes in presentation have to match the internal consistency created by the change in medium.

I agree with you about the Rankin/Bass Hobbit too. While I don't hate the film I completely get why you don't like it. If I'm being honest, the only reason I feel like it has a high place for me is because of nostalgia. I read the Hobbit in third grade and my mother immediately showed my impressionable mind the film and the rest is history. The changes made to the story made the adaptation untenable because the story didn't follow through with its internal consistency. Eight of the dwarves die in the Battle of the Five armies and the viewer isn't told who and we're still being forced to care about them. That would have been fine (not really) but because the entire story focused so much on Bilbo that most of the dwarves didn't have a single line and they were just a bunch of names listed at the beginning. Another internal inconsistency within the Rankin/Bass film that has bothered me was the sort of feminine sentience (boy is that a phrase I never expected to write) that the Ring seems to have while with Gollum then simply disappears once Bilbo has it.

The nature of adaptation is change. From book to film, film to tv series, podcast to book, and so on and so forth. Certain things need be added or taken away in order to maintain the story's structural integrity and keep it as close to canon as possible. It's ironic that adaptations can't be done word for word and image for image because those specific things can only work within that medium. For example (SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO HASN'T SEEN OR LISTENED TO ARCHIVE 81) the recent adaptation of the audio drama Archive 81 on Netflix. A lot of things worked for the audio drama, that never would have worked for the show. The entire premise of the podcast is that the person presenting the beginning and ending of each show is looking for his missing friend and is using the tapes, sent to him surreptitiously, to see if anyone knows or recognizes something. In a visual medium that would never have worked but it was brilliant for the podcast and helped create an overarching narrative above the other overarching narrative (podcast within a podcast). So, too, I think that Rings of Power deserves some slack because there is a lot of Tolkien's work that doesn't translate to the screen on a word by word basis. For the most part we as a group have been willing to do that and I'm very encouraged by that. Sure we all have gripes and things we look askance at, but overall we're willing to let these showrunners show us their interpterion.

Who knows though, they might end up pulling a final episode of Wheel of Time and we all get our pitchforks out in unison.
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Oh, man, you're asking the big questions here, Boromir. :tongue: This is something I used to have extremely strong opinions on, as those unfortunate enough to have shared the OG Plaza's Movies forum with me in 2009–11 may recall, but my views have shifted over the years. I try to avoid the terms "good adaptation" and "bad adaptation" these days in favor of "faithful adaptation" and "unfaithful adaptation." That's usually what people mean by good or bad, but I think the unexamined assumption that faithfulness is inherently good and unfaithfulness is inherently bad impedes people's ability to think critically about adaptations, much less have meaningful conversations about them. I emphasize that it's unexamined assumptions I object to. If people have sincere, considered convictions about why—and, just as importantly, how—adaptations should be faithful, that's great! But I think one of the main reasons the purist debates of yore involved so much talking past each other is that most people were only marginally aware of their preconceptions about adaptations.

I'm pretty sure I've given this spiel on the Plaza before, but it's truly striking in retrospect how little the purist and revisionist factions differed on the underlying questions. Most movie debates, at least from December 2001 onward, were not about whether the films should be faithful, but whether they in fact were. The former point came up so rarely because the vast majority of participants considered it blindingly obvious that adaptations should be faithful, to the point that nobody bothered to justify it with actual arguments. Unsurprisingly, people who enjoyed the films tended to think they were faithful, and people who didn't enjoy them thought they were unfaithful. After all, once a normative value was assigned to faithfulness, nobody wanted to be associated with its lack. I think much of the heatedness of those days can be explained by the mutual assumption that unfaithful adaptations being bad means anyone who enjoys them must be a bad fan, which naturally made people take things personally.

I think this is self-evidently absurd when you spell it out, but when it's not spelled out, and when everyone plays along, you get—well, I'm sure most of us remember. And if anyone doesn't, I'm sure ROP discourse will look similar once people have had time to either get attached to the show or not (I think the pacing makes it hard to fall in love with the characters or story right away; how many movie-firsters were devoted fans before Frodo had reached the edge of the Shire in their first viewing?). Though ROP discourse is unfolding in a more explicitly political online space, in the shadow of recent (pop) culture war battlefields such as the Star Wars sequels, which complicates the already simplistic analysis given above. I'm sure it's possible for someone to think adaptations should only reflect the cultural context of the original work's creator without holding this belief as part of a politically motivated, reactionary distaste for degenerate modernism, or whatever buzzwords they prefer for expressing that idea. But the voices of these people tend to be drowned out by the reactionaries.

(I would draw a distinction between the cultural context question and the Jackson era debates about e.g. whether Faramir's character had been butchered beyond recognition. In a vacuum, I'd be pleased that more fans are paying attention to themes and subtext, but ... not like this. :googly:)
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Phew. Having gotten my stump speech out of my system, I wanted to highlight a part of @Boromir88's post that I agree with:
Boromir88 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:47 amIt's not the changes that bother me, it's wanting to have an explanation for why an adaptation changed something. And if you are going to change something, explain it better so it's consistent with the story you're trying to tell.
Unfortunately, it's currently in the early a.m. here and I am super behind on sleep, so I don't have another proper effortpost in me, but I touched on a similar point several months ago in response to people comparing the show to fanfiction (a comparison in which I suspected, based on what we knew at the time, that fanfiction would come out looking better :tongue:).
The best fanfiction AUs (Alternate Universes) diverge from their source material in artistically considered, deliberate ways, introducing new ideas while remaining in dialogue with the original. They display an obsession with detail that often eclipses that of fanfiction which hews closer to the original, in many cases because the authors really like some small element that wasn't elaborated on, and they use that as their basis to build new worlds of breathtaking depth and complexity. Some such fanfic authors love the original works, some actively dislike them, but the great ones all care. They're not making changes out of laziness, or pandering to expectations, or because they don't understand the original well enough to realize they're changing things.
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Thank you both for your replies. I don't have the time to type out the full response at the moment, but a few quick things.

@Metatron Omega, yes I did appreciate how the Rankin/Bass Hobbit at least was focused on Bilbo. He gets lost in his own movie in Jackson's adaptation. What I've started thinking is there isn't really "good" or "bad" changes in an adaptation, it comes down to convincing storytelling. The adapters understanding why they have to make a change to the lore, and being consistent within the context of their own story. For example, what we discussed with the animated Hobbit killing 8 dwarves at the battle. First, you should show the audience (or at least tell them, since Gandalf says Thorin and Bombur died) which dwarves survived by being at the end with Bilbo. Secondly, they took the time to introduce all 13 dwarves. Now they changed how that happened, which isn't a problem, but they introduced all 13 of them. So, why make that change (8 of them dying), why not just cut out some of the dwarves in the party? Also, I was disappointed to have the Arkenstone completely cut out. I like how it centered around Bilbo, but the Arkenstone story is one of Bilbo's big, important moments.

I enjoy reading your opinions (and stump speeches) @Eldy Dunami, they're always thoughtfully considered. :) Your quote from a few months ago I think hits the nail on the head for me. I've read quite a bit of Tolkien fanfiction (definitely not as many as others) but honestly, I think any alteration can work and still be considered a good (or faithful) adaptation. Even outlandish ones like putting wings on your balrog can work, but you have to understand the lore enough to know why that change is necessary and not just out of, as you write: They're not making changes out of laziness, or pandering to expectations, or because they don't understand the original well enough to realize they're changing things.

That's all I have time for at the moment. See you around the forum :smile:
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Eldy Dunami wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:18 am Most movie debates, at least from December 2001 onward, were not about whether the films should be faithful, but whether they in fact were. The former point came up so rarely because the vast majority of participants considered it blindingly obvious that adaptations should be faithful, to the point that nobody bothered to justify it with actual arguments. Unsurprisingly, people who enjoyed the films tended to think they were faithful, and people who didn't enjoy them thought they were unfaithful. A
Very good point here. I remember being a part of discussions like this and you're completely correct. At the time, while I enjoyed the movies, I certainly was in the camp of "the changes they made were for the detriment" camp. I've softened my more puritan perspectives on adaptations since then.

I've been generally enjoying ROP despite the obvious deviations from source. I'm not quite sure yet if I'm ready to call it a "good" or "bad" adaptation although I think a lot of that is in the eye of the beholder (not the D&D kind).

I did have a thought as I was discussing ROP amongst colleagues at work (who are not Tolkien fanatics) and I said something to the effect of "ROP is more of an alternate take than an adaptation or re-telling of the source material and honestly I know the story Tolkien wrote, so it's quite interesting to see it told quite differently". I do suppose, however, that it does give off a different impression of what Tolkien wrote from amongst the (large) population that doesn't know it, for whatever that is (or isn't) worth.

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Boromir88 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:03 amI enjoy reading your opinions (and stump speeches) @Eldy Dunami, they're always thoughtfully considered. :) Your quote from a few months ago I think hits the nail on the head for me. I've read quite a bit of Tolkien fanfiction (definitely not as many as others) but honestly, I think any alteration can work and still be considered a good (or faithful) adaptation. Even outlandish ones like putting wings on your balrog can work, but you have to understand the lore enough to know why that change is necessary and not just out of, as you write: They're not making changes out of laziness, or pandering to expectations, or because they don't understand the original well enough to realize they're changing things.
Thank you for your kind words, @Boromir88! I look forward to continuing to see you around the forum, too, and reading anything else you might have to say on this particular topic when you have more time. :smile:

While I've mellowed out a lot since my purist heyday, I remain fairly picky about what I will describe as faithful in adaptations, I just put much less value on faithfulness (which is different than no value :lol:). I'll point out and, perhaps, grumble about changes when I recognize them, but if the resulting story succeeds at what it's trying to do—if it's a good movie or show—that's the most important thing in my mind. The exception would be if I think what it's trying to do is inherently bad (either in general or for something connected to Middle-earth), but that's a very high bar. Even with the Hobbit films, I think one of the many problems there was Jackson going for an untenable waffle, trying to include all the epic fantasy stuff that interested in him and all the parts of the book that people would get up in arms about if they were excised (even more than they'd object to changes). If the films had had a clearer, more consistent vision of what they wanted to be, I think they might have been better, even if my enjoyment would still have been hampered by me not wanting to see The Hobbit turned into a typical fantasy epic.

Romeran wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 5:18 pmI did have a thought as I was discussing ROP amongst colleagues at work (who are not Tolkien fanatics) and I said something to the effect of "ROP is more of an alternate take than an adaptation or re-telling of the source material and honestly I know the story Tolkien wrote, so it's quite interesting to see it told quite differently". I do suppose, however, that it does give off a different impression of what Tolkien wrote from amongst the (large) population that doesn't know it, for whatever that is (or isn't) worth.
I think that's a reasonable enough description of ROP. If anything, I would've been open to a more offbeat series in terms of tone or theme. While the writers have made plenty of changes to the plot and characters thus far, it feels like they've also gone out of their way to remind people of LOTR at every turn, from the inclusion of Hobbits Harfoots to the recycling of particular lines of dialogue from the Jackson movies. There were a couple moments in the most recent episode where I was jolted out of my immersion because I recognized a line and my brain immediately connected it to a scene from PJ's LOTR. The same thing happened with the Hobbit films, which is not a comparison I'm happy to be making, though of course ROP is, on the whole, far superior to Jackson's second trilogy.
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Boromir88 wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 1:47 am What makes a "good" adaptation? What makes an adaptation "bad"? All adaptations change parts of the canon of what they're adapting. What makes one change to the canon more "acceptable" than others? How many "changes" to the canon are acceptable before you wonder can this even be called an adaptation? Is there some sort of scale? Like are some changes worse than others? And I'm just predicting there will be a variety of answers to these questions.
I have been reading twice or more this thread when I found it yesterday, and today in the early hours too. Adaptions are necessary, but in my opinion they shouldn't sacrifice the narrative of the story for ideas and morals other than the era it was written in. You can translate words from the Middle Ages literally in modern words, but if the writing style is High Gothic, it should remain as that. Courtly construction is what's held the poem together for centuries, it is interesting window how people back then experienced the world around them, within Christianity and outside of it. Poems back then were remembered often orally and this courtly rhythm is a memory strengthener for the poet's mind, who brought it to courts to entertain the inhabitants there, or in inns and guesthomes. Much later they were written down, so we find still records of those poems today in our forgotten archives.

What makes something a good adaption? Simply when enough research and thought is spent so the narrative works and feel as 'real', and you can say, 'yes it happened!'. Epical tales come in long and short forms, at small and great scales. The costs often don't outweight the mass of manhours that went into the entire production of it. But most of the time it earns itself back via cinema, and later the dvd and music score. And to mention the appreciation for many years beyond the production.

What makes it a bad adaption? Anything not mentioned above at least. I can add in reviews here, as they give often a general estimation if a narrative is okay to well worth reading, or if it is not. One point bad adaptions do share often, people don't finish the narrative until the end, but lay it aside. A good book got a mental pull to pick it up again and again, a bad book doesn't.

What makes one change to the canon more "acceptable" than others? As long the story works fluently, change in canon isn't considered bad or unacceptable. From book to threatre is a different way of experiencing the story than only in letters on pages. The dialogs is what most survives in adaptions, next moves and surroundings. An acceptable adaption is what the canon can tell in a different form without destroying the original intent of the narrative, a ballade, a threatre piece, an opera piece, a cinematic movie... How many changes? This depends how influential the changes are to the main narrative. Small adaptions are likely easier to accept than major ones. The reason why the change is made, makes it acceptable for the receivers. But smaller narratives often exist along the main one, and add depths to the story line, otherwise wouldn't be there really. I think there is a scale to it, but in what form? Some changes are worse than others? Definitely. In this category I have seen movies, that worked and the books didn't, and I have read books, where movies of it didn't. Examples are eluding me now, as I am just had breakfast.

I guess the scale could be, when the adaption doesn't meet the original narrative anymore, and becomes a story on it's own. Anything below the scale is acceptable, anything above is not. I have experienced way too often myself, even within my own creations. That I thought I could add just a nice chapter, but find even more inspiration that it eventually better stands as a seperate narrative. Stories can grow from other ones. At times it works and it is fine. At other times just not.
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Thank you for more replies. :grin: Some other things I want to toss out for discussion...

To expand on Eldy's comment that sparked the idea for creating this thread. I think as fans of Tolkien we are all familiar with what he called a "cauldron of a story." He had many sources of inspiration and experiences which influenced his writing. And as Eldy mentions it's no different for adaptations. Also, as fans of Tolkien we are at least interested to check out and critique adaptations of Tolkien. I think as viewers and critics of adaptations, I at least fell into the trap (or you might say a single-track mind) that if the adaptor didn't portray something exactly as Tolkien wrote it, then obviously the adaptor didn't understand the source material. I think it's important to acknowledge that adaptations will have different sources they're taking inspiration from, to put into their own "cauldron of a story." And that could be a big reason why I've softened my views on the quality of an adaptation.

Whenever I think about changes that Jackson made, I always think of @Romeran, because it just takes me back to the old plaza debate threads, and Jackson butchering Faramir's character. :stab: :lol: That leads me to another thought. If we're really passionate about a favorite character, or favorite scene, and they're portrayed differently from our vision, then we react more harshly to that change. Objectively speaking, making Frodo weaker and Faramir succumb to the Ring, should be the same on the scale. But feeling more connected to one character, we judge someone changing that character differently from others. For example, Romeran, would you say the changes Jackson made to Frodo and Aragorn angered you as much as the change to Faramir?
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I don't know the idea of a cauldron of a story. Cauldron reminds me more to the books of Harry Potter for in the classes of Potions. Neither I don't know the amount of recourses Tolkien took his inspirations from and used it for his works. Some writers use many resources, others do with a few recourses. Neither I do feel it is a trap that if the adaptor isn't putting the story down as the original writer did, he wouldn't understand the story. For me it comes to the choices you make to put a tale down, even it is reworking or not.

I was never a person who softened or hardened opinions. I am generally pretty critical, because I want quality. Which count almost everything I buy in daily life too. Cheap written tales aren't my sort of tales. That is nice for love romans where the kisses spring of the pages and the end is as happy ever after. Being quite intellectual I love tales who meet the same level and quality and are sort of brain crackers. A hero doesn't need to have a happy ever after. If he dies and the ending is wel constructed, the feeling is likely still good.

The whole issue of those new series, it doesn't meet the original narrative anymore.
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@Boromir88, I think you're very right about people reacting more strongly to changes to elements of the original that we care more about. I'm certainly no exception! On reflection, ROP episode 3 was certainly no worse, and probably better, than the two episode premiere, but I came away from it feeling considerably more down on the series since it gave so much attention to Númenor and Orcs in ways that didn't jive with my interpretations of those cultures in the books. I'm still trying to be fair to the series, though!

@Aikári Salmarinian, the cauldron of story is a metaphor (from Tolkien's essay On Fairy-stories) for the various influences and inspirations that go into any given work.
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In Tolkien's "mythology for England" he created a literary work that is not only a reflection of the myths and mythos of other time periods, he also gave his literary work a flexibility and strength that allows it to be reflected through the lens of time. I remember the Rankin Bass version, and I stood in line with great eagerness to see the Bakshi version too when it came out. As I look back on almost a half century of fandom, I can agree that the Rankin Bass version is a bit silly (and the Bakshi version too psychedelic) but even with the trappings of the time period superimposed on the basic mythos, the themes, characters (the "spirit" of the work) still shines thru.

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Eldy: I did read that essay and used in a chapter on Wolf, kind of reflecting through the eyes of another character on the day Tolkien read it in the north of Britain in 1938 or so. But I don't remember the mention of a cauldron.

If there is a thing about my tales, is I don't want them be reflected through the lens of time. I want them to remain in the timeframes they are situated. What is today, doesn't belong nor in the past, nor in the future. Wolf's tale particular emphasises mostly about what is in his eyes the splendour of his youth 1914 - 1945. The years beyond are for him a pale reflection of what existed before and this haunts him well into the 21st century. He dies finally in 2022, nearly 108 years old. Tale of Jenai got also a timestamp which reveals itself slowly and neither suited for time reflection.
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Aiks, the relevant quote, Eldy and I are referring to:

"But if we speak of a Cauldron, we must not wholly forget the Cooks. There are many things in the Cauldron, but the Cooks do not dip in the ladle quite blindly. Their selection is important." (Tolkien's essay On Faerie Stories)

He uses a "Cauldron" and "Cooks" as a metaphor for what goes into writing a story. An author selects what influenced them and their experiences to put into their story, as a cook selects ingredients to put into a "Cauldron." Those ingredients combine to create a new flavor and texture, that separately would taste quite different. And hopefully the new flavor is tasty.

I think the same should apply to people who create adaptations of Tolkien. Yes, Tolkien is most likely their largest source of influence, it's why they are creating an adaptation. But all artists are still a product of the time they live in. Whether it's Rankin/Bass, Peter Jackson, Bakshi, Payne and McKay, they have other influences to make the art they created distinctly their own creation.
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I would like to offer up a few slices of Tolkien adaptations that haven't been mentioned thus far: the audio dramas and the audiobook narrations.

The BBC created an audio drama in 1981 famously staring Ian Holm as Frodo and Bill Nighy has Sam (Paul Woodthrope also played Gollum here and in the Ralph Bakshi version). I've not heard it so I can't speak to the "faithfulness" of the production but given the medium I think it would have a greater opportunity to include more Tolkien written dialogue.

NPR made one as well in 1971 that included scenes with Tom Bombadil, the Barrow-downs, and Gildor Inglorion something nearly every other adaptation has omitted. I was gifted the Fellowship my 16th birthday and subsequently it became to standard by which I judge all audio adaptations. Despite having a narrator the entire story uses dialogue more than description so miss out on all those tree descriptions Tolkien is so famous for, and the acting with some characters is a bit meh, but overall I think the story is good and holds its own against other adaptations.

Then we have the audiobook narrations. I consider these to be adaptations too, even though they are literally reading the text unabridged because there are still creative choices in accent, narrative style, etc. that Tolkien possibly never considered. Rob Ingles' narrative is probably far and away the most popular but Martin Shaw and Andy Serkis also did fantastic jobs in their adaptations.
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Boromir: Thanks, I'll check the quote in the wider context, as I got the text from Chrys. I might have commented in the wrong sense? I did adaptions within Tolkiens universe, but I just write. Yes, I check if the grammer is right, but other technical aspects on language consciously kind of elude me. That was never my strongest point in school either. I was better with numbers.
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Boromir88 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 12:07 amI think the same should apply to people who create adaptations of Tolkien. Yes, Tolkien is most likely their largest source of influence, it's why they are creating an adaptation. But all artists are still a product of the time they live in. Whether it's Rankin/Bass, Peter Jackson, Bakshi, Payne and McKay, they have other influences to make the art they created distinctly their own creation.
This sums it up well for me. I can, to some extent, understand why some fans want to Tolkien—or, as a general principle, the source material of any adaptation—to be the only "ingredient" going into the adapters' "cauldron," but I'm not convinced this is possible. Even if it was, I wouldn't want that to be the case. Adaptations are interesting to me because they are created through the blending of the original creator's efforts and the work of the people making the new work. (Granted, this wasn't my mindset during my Plaza heyday in the late 2000s and early 2010s. :tongue:) It's ironic that so many ROP critics point to Jackson as an example they wish McPayne would emulate, given that Jackson spoke so openly in the Appendices and commentaries about his various non-Tolkien influences.
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Boromir88 wrote: Sun Sep 18, 2022 6:04 pm Whenever I think about changes that Jackson made, I always think of @Romeran, because it just takes me back to the old plaza debate threads, and Jackson butchering Faramir's character. :stab: :lol: That leads me to another thought. If we're really passionate about a favorite character, or favorite scene, and they're portrayed differently from our vision, then we react more harshly to that change. Objectively speaking, making Frodo weaker and Faramir succumb to the Ring, should be the same on the scale. But feeling more connected to one character, we judge someone changing that character differently from others. For example, Romeran, would you say the changes Jackson made to Frodo and Aragorn angered you as much as the change to Faramir?
I completely agree with your point here. My attachement to Faramir as a character certainly strongly colored my reactions to the adaptation. You could argue that more changes were made to Aragorn than Faramir (certainly numerically, although I might argue that Aragorn’s character remains largely in tact).

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Here's a relevant quote from the Silmarillion on Adaptations and Fanfiction:

" 'And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’ " -Ainulindale.

To Eru, all adaptations are ultimately good, as they merely enhance Eru's designs. This is reinforced through the creation of the Dwarves, a living example of fanfiction (by Aule) of the Children of Illuvatar, ultimately validated by Eru and enhancing Arda.

One could then make the interpretation that all adaptations that has its source in the Tolkien Legendarium ultimately makes the legendarium even more wonderful. After the First Season of the Rings of Power TV series, we actually have proof that this is the case.

For those who loved the Rings of Power TV series, obviously the Tolkien Legendarium benefits because people will want to research it.

But for those who hated the Rings of Power TV series, the Legendarium still benefits because most of the reviews aren't saying "Rings of Power bad, which means Tolkien's works sucks." Most of the negative reviews I read are "Rings of Power is a bad adaptation." But it doesn't make the legendarium bad because there is an implied statement there that is saying "Rings of Power-bad, Tolkien Legendarium-good." Thus, we can see how the Legendarium actually benefits from both positive and negative reaction from the TV series. Negative reviewers use the Tolkien's works as a reference point, giving them reason to research and then argue about how good the Tolkien Legendarium is because that enhances their own argument against ROP.

Obviously the Tolkien Estate disagrees with Eru and the Ainulindale, using the excuse of 'copyright' to reveal their opinion that all adaptations are 'bad' and showing their intent to eliminate all other "alternative music." Such a stance does not strengthen the Legendarium at all. It weakens it, particularly because Tolkien's works aren't obscure, they're well known around the world! This is not Water Margin, where only half the world recognizes the work and the original source has clearly objectionable elements to it! When I was in Indonesia, everybody knew about Lord of the Rings. Perhaps the Estate has good intentions. But many evils have came out from good intentions, and I am glad that the Estate are fangless and have not seriously tried to take down any adaptations.

Enough ranting about the Estate though. With me I'm a professional wrestling fan so I am a big proponent of the "suspension of disbelief." The disbelief in this situation being my own knowledge about the original source. Here's an example. I am very knowledgeable about the fall of the Qin Dynasty and the Rise of the Han. There was a Chinese TV series involving multiple time travelers portraying different characters in the show along with fictional romances with people. By the way, they spoke modern Chinese throughout the series I believe. Even though this is obviously not "canon" to the original history, I enjoyed watching it because of the romance and the drama involved with it.

Basically, if I can understand the language/communication, the script ain't cringe, and my suspension of disbelief isn't broken, then I would consider it a good adaptation. But if I ever think something akin to "this is fake," then its a bad sign for the adaptation in terms of my regards for it. But a good sign for the original source material because I'm implicitly saying "this adaptation is fake, but the original source is Legit. Go look at the original source."

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