A Case for Lore

[Chrysophylax Dives]

OK @Drifa and @Chrysophylax Dives , I have been absent a long while (hobbit-nap), and am now quite confused, did I guess the Poppy Bolger one correctly? I think I did, as it was the intended answer...

Periantar, that you guessed the right answer is not disputed. You are the riddle-guesser and so only you have the authority to speak on the riddle itself, which is disputed. Did you guess the right answer to the wrong riddle?

While you were napping i tried to work this out and went to the admins for help, which helped not at all (though i saw some new bits of this nuplaza). Thing is, i'm also a bit new to this nuplaza and i think i went to the wrong place - this is obviously a case for the Lore Goose.

Again, i'm not quite sure how this works - older members please feel free to step in. But it seems straightforward. Legally, all members address the Judge (the Goose), who meanwhile has sat on her spectacles and reads the wrong post. The members of the court - you, me, Drifa, anyone else who cares to toss a coin in the hat - then sort out the matter ourselves. When we are done we poke the Goose again who gives a formal ruling. Something like that.

So, as you already know riddle and answer, here is the issue:

In TROTK Appendix C Family Trees:

...Most of them are either guests at Bilbo's Farewell Party, or their direct ancestors. The guests at the Party are underlined.

Falco Chubb-Baggins
1303 - 1399
Poppy
1344
= Filibert Bolger

Was Poppy married at the time of the Party and no longer a Chubb-Baggins????

Please, please, please your Hobbitness, shed some light on this Riddle so that we can fix the riddle thread. To be honest with you, the reason that we have to sort the court thing out ourselves in Lore is because the Goose has nobly sat on the Fangorn riddle thread to keep the whole riddle-magic flowing - which is a great deed, indeed, but we will flounder in Lore without the Goose, so we are looking to u to step up to the plate to provide a more permanent riddle-thread solution. please help!

[Periantar]

Well, as I see it @Chrysophylax Dives , I have successfully answered the Riddle. As I recollect, the ancient rules of the The Riddle Game, as seen in the Red Book of Westmarch, are at once, quite complex and rather simplistic. In essence, the rules are dependent on the agreements reached by any parties taking part in the game, such as in the case of the much revered Bilbo and his encounter with Gollum. In this case of course - besides the asking and answering of riddles, and the giving of time and extra guesses - the rules rather famously included the possible leading out of the one, and the possible eating of the other.

This seems to render crystal clarity as to the fact that rules are:
a. binding - yes, even to death
b. flexible between games,
c. but not within games, suffice to say that a rule may not be altered or renegged, but may be added upon consensus - i.e the giving of clues/extra time- at the request of the riddlee, and the aquiescence of the riddler
d. to be agreed upon by both parties upon commencement
e. to take the default form of question and answer, in the absence of any other agreements.

As these rules offer no further insights, one must assume that the ancient form of the Riddle Game was ruled largely by an honour system, which some of course, may argue the Good Bilbo Baggins to have been in breach of when he posed the cleverly worded riddle, "What have I got in my pocket?" Such an honour system would necessarily apply to the clarity and accuracy of both riddle and riddle solution. As such, and where any question may arise as to the voracity of a given solution, where there proves to be an error in either the original riddle, or the Riddler's intended solution, an honour system would necessarily favour the Riddlee in a case where their proferred solution was initally accepted as accurate.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

So you are saying that we should eat the Dwarf?

Edit. I beg your pardon. So you are saying that you should get to eat the Dwarf?

Edit edit. One could quibble with your overall take by going first-edition, where the original terms are rather: (a) you win - i gift you a 'present' (= magic-ring), (b) you lose - i eat you. But it is academic, for in either case we are dealing with (b), which is constant over the two editions.

[Periantar]

@Chrysophylax Dives
Yes, undeniably constant, and some might say, a little gruesome/heavy handed, but can't argue with the text.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

No, indeed. All we have is the text (and the Lore Goose). Without the text we would be utterly lost. We must hold tight to the text or perish. And happily, we seem to be in agreement on the text.

Anyone else wish to throw a peanut in the hat?

@Drifa?

[alas_not_me]

Eat the dwarf?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Seems that nobody else wishes to speak. The hat has sufficient offerings. Maybe it is time to call the Lore Goose?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

O @Silky Gooseness, embodiment of plaza justice and wearer of the hat of Lore when in this forum, i think we are ready to pass the case on to you so that you may pronounce a verdict here or move things on to the prancing-pony show at the infamous Halls of Injustice, as is your will.

The case is open and shut: @Drifa, the good Dwarf, fluffed the requisite riddle-research and therefore @Periantar, the good Hobbit, who guessed the right answer, also wins the competition, and so the prize. This is not in doubt. However, there is a question of identity-confusion that has resulted from the Hobbit wishing to have a Dwarf-cake and eat it too.

(I tried to draw a table but it is way too complicated.)

1st ed. Hobbit wins a 'present' // Gollum wins the Hobbit as lunch
2nd ed. Hobbit wins 'the way out' // Gollum wins the Hobbit as lunch

Periantar claims the right to eat Drifa. This would be the correct ruling if the roles were: Periantar = Gollum, Drifa = Bilbo Baggins. But look at the pair of them, obviously it is the other way round! The Hobbit is a Hobbit is a Hobbit, while look at the shaggy, hairy face of the Dwarf before us - do you not see a sort of missing-link between the two Gollums? See court exhibit A below.

So if we accept the obvious, namely that 'Drifa = Gollum' and 'Periantar = Bilbo Baggins', then the court should either command the Dwarf to show the Hobbit the way out, or to hand over the 'present', depending on editions (which we have not really discussed). Possibly the court should deliberate more on the appropriate edition?

We await instructions.

Court exhibit A

[Silky Gooseness]

The thing is, if we think about contract law (or lore), the terms must be set at the beginning and agreed to by both parties, or can’t be considered binding. Please present the evidence in favour of this taking place, or I can’t agree Periantar has rights to eat Drifa. Certainly not the whole Drifa. Perhaps three hairs of Drifa’s beard, at most, as a token?

[Rivvy Elf]

I hear dwarves are good with ketchup.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

The thing is, if we think about contract law (or lore), the terms must be set at the beginning and agreed to by both parties, or can’t be considered binding. Please present the evidence in favour of this taking place, or I can’t agree Periantar has rights to eat Drifa. Certainly not the whole Drifa. Perhaps three hairs of Drifa’s beard, at most, as a token?

Members of the Court, the Lore Goose has spoken! As usual, it is now up to us lower beings to interpret the mysterious words. Observe how the eating of Drifa fascinates the Goose, who holds it up as a wish to inspect despite the court having proved beyond all reasonable doubt that Drifa is Gollum and therefore eating is off the table. This is the way of the Goose, and we should all ponder what the Goose has in mind, as does @Rivvy Elf with inspired talk of ketchup. But look! At the same time, we have already a hint of the final outcome. @Drifa, you have a razor to hand?

O revered Lore Goose, your question was answered by @Periantar above.

the ancient rules of the The Riddle Game, as seen in the Red Book of Westmarch, are at once, quite complex and rather simplistic. In essence, the rules are dependent on the agreements reached by any parties taking part in the game, such as in the case of the much revered Bilbo and his encounter with Gollum. In this case of course - besides the asking and answering of riddles, and the giving of time and extra guesses - the rules rather famously included the possible leading out of the one, and the possible eating of the other.

Surely, even the Goose must respect the rules as given in the Red Book of Westmarch? After all, that is why you are the Lore Goose.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Lore Goose, Members of the Court,

I see that it was a mistake on my part not to begin by framing the accusation made against the Dwarf.

If you will forgive my maybe spammable exclamation, I just have to drop to one knee before the smarts that have just been demonstrated in this thread ! I remember when that riddle first stumped us, .. back in MARCH 2022 !!!!

Mighty indeed are the Periannath ! Now don't you dare go easy on that Dwarf, @Periantar ! She's set the bar high for this game, and must take a turn at enjoying the challenge as do all who are courageous enough to keep guessing.

Have any of you any idea how this riddle wove in and out of my mind in the week that i had Covid? All the family had Covid at the same time, and i had this bright idea of cooking a large chunk of meat in the smoker that people could just pick at for the next few days and i would not have to cook anything else. but trying to light the smoker i used gasoline and set fire to my hand. i still have a large scarred white patch on my right hand. and i lay in bed in some pain and the Dwarf's riddle of the Chubb who was not a Chubb because also a Baggins, though i did not know this, echoed round and round my head.

You have seen the results of my mental implosion in the terrible story of Adamanta Chubb and her son Albusbalbus, the story of the Great Folly on the Hill. This misbegotten Shire family steps out of the riddle of the unlockable lock. They exist because of the Dwarf!



Let me be clear. As I see it, the plaza has many rooms and in just about all of them the pure poetry of role-playing fantasy can go wherever it wishes. But at the top of the plaza is Lore, and Lore is not only about fantasy it is also about Justice.

I wish for justice to be dealt to the Dwarf. I do not claim to understand what magic the Dwarf did, and this is why I for my part petition the Lore Goose. The Hobbit @Periantar has his own reasons, as does no doubt @alas_not_me, our newest member (welcome!). But for my part I am standing here before the court only because i wish for justice.

Possibly the court requires a neutral witness. @Ercassie, are you aware of what has transpired since you posted that above in the riddle thread? The Dwarf confessed to fluffing a line of the riddle! Since then only silence - 'no comment' and no court appearance to date. But the confession is written in 'Riddles in the Dark' in the hand of the Dwarf.

What say you now, Ercassie?

[Dungeon Delver]

Cheezus Christ.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Dear Lore Goose (aka @Silky Gooseness), i did try to sort this out without taking the case to Lore but i see now the full light of day must be shed on the matter, or there is no way out of the confusion. Now the case is in Lore, all members of the court may petition whatever they want, and i fear for the Dwarf given the mood of this court.

But i myself am still suffering some lingering food-poisoning and have no wish to eat the Dwarf, shaved or unshaved, with or without ketchup. What I desire is the answer to my question about the who and what of Adamanta Chubb and her son. Is Albusbalbus a Chubb-Baggins? I need to know this because i have writers block and cannot continue their story until i understand who and what i am dealing with.

The court seems agreed that @Periantar gave the right answer to the wrong riddle. So is my story of Adamanta Chubb, Albusbalbus, and the Folly on the Hill the wrong answer to the right riddle?

I look to your wisdom, O Lore Goose. Please help.

[Silky Gooseness]

Eating (and leading out) as a result of the Riddle Game is a POSSIBLE outcome and should not be stated as the inevitable unless both parties have agreed. Now, from the top.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Eating (and leading out) as a result of the Riddle Game is a POSSIBLE outcome and should not be stated as the inevitable unless both parties have agreed. Now, from the top.

Thank-you. Only this is the frame proposed above (same post) by the Hobbit @Periantar, and it is truly the way of Old Lore. We are talking of a riddle on the thread 'Riddles in the Dark' and the canonical text as Old Lorists read the riddle game between Bilbo and Gollum indeed plays on this binary of stakes: Eating vs. Way Out.

But I would not have troubled the court with this matter were all that there is to it. I petition the Lore Goose that the first edition stakes should also be considered. Hence I claim that the POSSIBLE outcomes are not the two that you two both give, but three:

Eating vs. Way Out vs. Giving a Present

Given the hint of three locks of golden beard from the Dwarf gifted to the Hobbit, I would say that the court is already angling for first edition ruling: Dwarf gives Hobbit a 'present'. But if the Goose wishes to complicate matters that is not for me to question.

However, with the matter between Dwarf and Hobbit dealt with squarely and fairly, the court might turn to my own issue with the Dwarf, which is a delicate domestic matter concerning the parentage of Albusbalbus Chubb.

[Drifa]

The more I think of it, I think the whole case should be thrown out of court due to lack of evidence. I can find no evidence to prove when Poppy and Filibert Bolger were married. At Bilbo's birthday party, Poppy was 57 years old. Falco had died two years earlier, in 1399. That would make Poppy app. 55 at the time of his death. There is no evidence that I could find that states at what age Hobbits are usually married. But indeed, Poppy and Filibert were married before Falco's death?

Falco Chubb-Baggins was born in 1303 and died in 1399 SR.
Poppy Chubb-Baggins was born in 1344 SR.

I have to go to the mines now. It's off to work, I go. Please keep the ketchup capped until I get back.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

The more I think of it, I think the whole case should be thrown out of court due to lack of evidence. I can find no evidence to prove when Poppy and Filibert Bolger were married.

I have to go to the mines now. It's off to work, I go. Please keep the ketchup capped until I get back.

Drifa, hope work was fun. While you were out one of your friends who had been summoned by court order called by to drop off Court Exhibit B. Might have been Snow White but may have been Grumpy - i find it hard to distinguish your various friends.

Court Exhibit B is borrowed from an alternative universe in which you posted the right riddle, given the available evidence. Had this been the form of your original riddle, we none of us would be here wasting our time in court at this moment. Alas, in our reality the riddle was not of this form.


Court Exhibit B

Middle-earth Related

It started with a positive
outcome and an unlockable lock.
I was the first of the first to hatch,
then there was one other;
a symbolic red patch.
Long it lasted till finally, maybe, I was
the last of the last,
or POSSIBLY the second to last.
Who am I?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Hi everyone,
Sorry to break in on court proceedings. I just want to say that from my side it is all good. Last night I overcame my writers block with the realization that the Bag-end Gardener was not the father of Albusbalbus Chubb. The Gardener was a good sort and was very fond of Adamanta, so he stepped up and took the heat. Albus always thought that the Gardener was his father, but the Gardener and Adamanta knew that this was not so. We are looking at the oldest story in the world - miscegenation.

So now I have established the paternity of Albusbalbus Chubb I no longer have a gripe with the Dwarf and, for my part wish to withdraw my own charges, complaints, and grumbles.

As a member of the plaza, I will of course continue to attend this court and do my duty to the cause of justice and truth in the case between @Periantar and @Drifa, judged by the Lore Goose. As a member of the plaza, is my duty to ensure that Justice is done and I wish you all to know that I will take every effort in this cause.

[Rivvy Elf]

Don't push Ercassie to post, @Chrysophylax Dives. She has a lot on her plate already.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Don't push Ercassie to post, @Chrysophylax Dives. She has a lot on her plate already.

Edited (though i think the mention will still carry on to its target, a sort of ghost mention).

[Rivvy Elf]

Thank you @Chrysophylax Dives.

Where will this court case be held? In this thread? In the Halls of Injustice?

[Silky Gooseness]

Drifa does raise an interesting point about the usual marriage age of Hobbits. We could guess that the age by which Bilbo was considered an unusual bachelor was an age by which you might consider a hobbit to be well past marriageable but not sure there’s any further detail on that?

[Ercassie]

Don't push Ercassie to post, @Chrysophylax Dives. She has a lot on her plate already.

Thanks for looking out for me @Rivvy Elf. I do indeed have a lot of plates already spinning, many of them rather convoluted enough in the plotting out that I have no mind left to consider the cleverness of riddles at this time, or the foreseeable.

@Chrysophylax Dives, thank you for encouraging my inclusion re: your endeavour. I can not say that I would have been of much assistance anyway, any more than I ever was (which was not at all really) in guessing the riddle which kickstarted the entire thing. But I wish you all a satisfying resolution regardless.

[Drifa]

The average Hobbit seems to have married in their thirties or early forties. And there might have been some exceptions, but there is no evidence to prove this.

From Appendix B and C TROTK
Pippin was 37
Sam was 40
Elanor was 30
Faramir Took was 33

From The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien

Fortinbras II, one time head of the Tooks and Thain, married Lalia of the Clayhangers in 1314, when he was 36 and she was 31.

...and I should say that their family arrangements were 'patrilinear' rather than patriarchal. That is, their family names descended in the male-line (and women were adopted into their husband's name);

In A Guide To Middle Earth by Robert Foster, under P, she is Poppy Bolger.

I looked through The Encyclopedia of Arda (which I sometimes do for quick access to names, events, etc., then use my books to verify) when I curiously thought of looking up Poppy Chubb-Baggins. They had Falco down as the first Chubb-Baggins and Poppy as the last. And that is how my uncertainty started. Now, I can understand that she would be the last descendant of that family name, but it seems strange that she would be the latest with the name Chubb-Baggins unless she married after her father's death in 1399, making her 55 or 56 years old at the time. It's not unheard of to marry at such an age, but it seems uncharacteristic of Hobbits if the evidence I gathered above is relevant.

[Periantar]

I just got Repetitive Stress Injury scrolling through all of this.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Periantar, you have my sympathies. While I am sure I was right that this is a case for the Lore Goose as opposed to the Mouth of Sauron, who runs the Halls of Injustice, I am not sure it makes much difference in reality.

Hoi, admins + other plaza members. Had this case been turned over to a triumvarate of @Drifa, @Fuin Elda, and myself, as originally suggested on your Admin thread, then plaza justice would have fallen on the head of the miscreant Dwarf days and days ago.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

How about a plea deal?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Yet again, I might have got this all wrong. The original idea was to make everyone so sick of the problem with Drifa's riddle that I could go to the points fairy and ask for maximum points and official title of 'Greatest Plaza Riddle Ever Posed' and the points fairy would hand over the points and title without a fuss rather than open the can of worms that are Hobbit marriages.

But... I am now coming round to the slow and ever slower ways of the Mordor bureaucrats. So long as a ruling is never arrived at this thread can be called into action any time a victim of the Dwarf's riddle-hints in the Shire can take no more and needs to vent. A useful plaza institution so long as Drifa is around.

But Dwarf, that does mean that my trip to the points fairy is on hold for now.

[Dungeon Delver]

We could, also, drop it and move on since we’re now reaching Suessical levels of farce.

[Troelsfo]

The appropriate scholarly answer is, of course, that we can never know for certain.

However, the less scholarly answer based on having read Tolkien for a while is that of course they were married and she attended the party as Poppy Bolger – there really should not be much doubt about that.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

However, the less scholarly answer based on having read Tolkien for a while is that of course they were married and she attended the party as Poppy Bolger – there really should not be much doubt about that.

I missed this vital post what with all the other chaos. Seems to me we have an expert witness.

@Drifa, @Periantar. What say you now?

[Periantar]

@Chrysophylax Dives I quite honestly say now, that I am totally and completely lost, like a hobbit without a hole, and am beginning to feel quite confusticated and bebothered.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

And this from the Hobbit who answered the riddle! Our only hope for an authority!!

Maybe we have to push for a dismissal of all charges? The Dwarf cleared and the name Drifa restored to its previous unblemished good-standing? If someone seconds the motion we could put it to the Lore Goose.

[Drifa]

Bring out the barrel of ale!!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I'll take that as a second. However, the essence of this Lore court is consensus. And so I feel we should wait a little to see if @Troelsfo, as expert witness, would object to the dropping of all charges.

Basically, I find it fascinating to watch how engagement with this thread goes. On first encountering the problem everyone appears to see clearly that there was a mistake. But the more anyone is drawn into things the more unclear everything becomes, until we arrive at:

@Chrysophylax Dives I quite honestly say now, that I am totally and completely lost, like a hobbit without a hole, and am beginning to feel quite confusticated and bebothered.

And the Hobbit speaks for me too, and I would suspect all three admins. As I see it, that is testimony to the deep power of this riddle, and as such establishes that the so-called 'mistake' or 'error' is actually an intrinsic part of its profound magic.

[Silky Gooseness]

I am frequently confusticated and bebothered

[Periantar]

@Drifa ale it is

[Chrysophylax Dives]

OK. Time to bring this show-trial to a close.

@Silky Gooseness, in your capacity as Lore Goose might we petition for a ruling?

I apologize for requesting this previously, when in fact consensus had not yet been reached. But now it seems clear that there is a not a member of this site who would dream of stepping into this court to say anything other than the obvious:

The riddle of the Dwarf named @Drifa was the greatest of all riddles ever posed on the plaza. A riddle so great that it contains a clue so subtle that all who consider it carefully with only the rational mind conclude that it contains an error, and yet once they have been sucked into the riddle and been turned around by it, round and round and round, so passing beyond reason and into the state of 'Dwarf-mind', come to see that the fault is in them, not the riddle.

A riddle that got us through Covid. The riddle that gave us Adamanta Chubb, and so indirectly the 4th-Age mushroom artists of Undertowers. The riddle that gave us this thread! A riddle that I will never forget because the white burn mark on my right hand is for me a permanent reminder of its brilliance.

The consensus of this court is that the Dwarf named Drifa should be cleared of all charges. Could you possibly be so kind as to provide a formal ruling?

(Folks, remember, we have now stepped into Goose-time, so don't hold your breath for the judge's decision.)

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I guess I forgot to put out any popcorn. I'll remedy that now.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

So before anyone says anything, I must recuse myself. Obviously, my interests in fostering and reporting an honest consensus is in conflict with my business interests with the Dwarf. I had hoped to prod the Lore Goose into dismissing the case before anyone noticed. By now it is far too late.

If I may say two words as I step down from a self-appointed position to which I had no claim at all in the first place? Firstly, @Drifa, you gonna get a month's ban, at worst (I hope), so don't be sore. Second, possibly @Ephtariat can give a theological spin to hobbit-marriages and save you? Do recall who supplied the primary testimony in this case in the long ago.

[Ephtariat]

@Chrysophylax Dives I'm quite lost as to what the riddle was, what the solution is, and what is the problem if the riddle was solved, apart from who gets to eat whom. But I can confirm as @Rivvy Elf said above that I too heard Dwarves are good with ketchup. Mayonnaise just doesn't do the trick. :-)

[Arnyn]

And mustard's really only for the very adventurous among us.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Don't they do weird things to chips with mustard and mayonnaise in Belgium? It is possible that this court will reach a verdict sometime before the present age of the world comes to an end, although - *checks watch* - maybe not. FYI I have made some initial inquiries down at the Halls of Injustice in Mordor. Fact is, though, I don't see that being any faster.

May I just speak without a 'hat' of any kind? Just the authentic voice of someone who cares, both for the reputation of the plaza and also for the good Dwarf? Honestly, I think it is a disgrace and a scandal that this case has been allowed to carry on for so long. Every single day without a verdict my former client wakes up with the stigma of a convict, a jailbird, a no good villain. But hope has burned bright and each morning the Dwarf thinks that maybe today is the day of freedom, or even of a guilty verdict - because anything would be better than this waiting.

A shame and a crime against justice, Dwarves, and riddles. Free the Dwarf!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Also, and let us face the facts for once. Hobbits might be good with ketchup, and Elves even better. But Dwarves have way too much hair. We will have to find a way to shave the creature properly if we do actually eat it.

[Arnyn]

I don't know about shaving. I mean, I don't shave a kiwi and then eat it with the skin but without the hair. Maybe Dwarves should be peeled.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

So kiwis are to be peeled? That explains a couple of things. As for the Dwarf, some research turned up a few more options for the community to consider:

We might make a pie. (Would be better if we could catch a few more of these Dwarves for it.)

Roast the Dwarf slowly and eat later. (Down side: will take all night.)

Mince the Dwarf fine.

Boil the Dwarf. (Down side: long way to the river and we aint got no water.)

All of us sit on the Dwarf and make jelly. (Straightforward because if we sit on the last fellow first it is the same as sitting on the first fellow last. Problematic because we do not know the colour of the Dwarf's stockings.)

Alternatively, we could just sit up all night talking about it round the fire and get stoned.

[Troelsfo]

I'll take that as a second. However, the essence of this Lore court is consensus. And so I feel we should wait a little to see if @Troelsfo, as expert witness, would object to the dropping of all charges.

Apologies for being late, of course. One might think that I had long since learned not to post when I know I am about to plunge into a period of business, but one would, in that case, obviously thing wrongly

I am not sure exactly what charges, we are speaking about, so I would be more comfortable refraining from that part of this thread, and simply sum up some of the indications that led me to be so clear in my conclusion. The other thing supporting my belief is an undefinable idea of what Tolkien would have thought was right and proper for Hobbits ... quite likely a very subjective feeling with more applicability than actual evidence (though I do not necessarily agree with Tolkien about what is right and proper).

Filibert Bolger was born in 1342
Poppy Chubb-Baggins was born in 1344
The Farewell Party was held in 1401

So, at the time of the party, the couple would have been 59 and 57, respectively, and with the Hobbit coming-of-age age being 33 at this time, I find it inconceivable that their marriage would not have been entered long before the party.

Samwise was 40 when he married Rose, and she definitely thought that they had waited long enough at that point (“Well, you've wasted a year, so why wait longer?”). A quick search turns up the example of Fortinbras II and Lalia the Great who married when he was 36 and she was 31 (Letters no. 214). Thus it is, indeed, my impression that Hobbits would normally marry not long after coming of age – in their thirties more often than in their early forties.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Thank you very much @Troelsfo. And it does seem that the consensus has swung like a pendulum and our poor Dwarf must be sweating under the collar. As I've noted above, I do have personal interests in this case, for I have persuaded @Drifa to join me in the 4th Age Mushroom Art venture. Therefore I will not attempt to swing back the pendulum and attempt to prove the Dwarf innocent - a futile venture in any case.

What I do suggest, however, is that this case should be thrown out on a legal technicality. How can we have a Lore case without a judge? But the judge has gone AWOL. Without a judge there can be no justice, whatever the consensus views of plaza members may be.

I submit to all of you, then, that the Dwarf should be set free despite being obviously guilty because this court of Lore is absent a judge.

(Did I get that right Drifa? If I missed anything on the note you gave me let me know and I will revise.)

[Drifa]

That was my impression, too @Troelsfo, that Hobbits married shortly after coming of age.

In all likelihood, this made Poppy no longer a Chubb-Baggins in name before her father Falco died in 1399, two years before the Party, Poppy being 57 at the time of her father's death.

But who was by rights the last Chubb-Baggins? Poppy by blood or Falco by name?

Thanks for backing me up, Dragon!