The Undertowers Thing

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Undertowers Lore is tradition that looks out to sea. No just for laughs Lore, no authority without a mirror. We do Lore.

Rules of Thread. The Westmarch is not the Westmarch because we are still in the Third Age. You arrive here through the Shire but you are now outside the official borders of the plaza. We are the pioneers of the later Hobbit colony, and we build our houses together with the Dwarves, who make music and tea, and the Elves who sometimes sing late in the night, way up from the top of one or other of their towers on the three hills.

Post and discuss Lore questions below.

Ideally, discussion is moderated by an Undertowers library team. But we must imagine them for now. May the spirit of Adamanta Chub guide your voices.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

First Question for the Undertowers Thing

At the time of the story of Frodo Baggins and the War of the Ring, where was the Ithil Stone?

Many arguments may be advanced for why the Ithil Stone must have been relocated by Sauron to his Dark Tower of Barad-dûr. Yet all such arguments must confront this image of Minas Ithil that is now Minas Morgul in this passage in the concluding chapter of Two Towers:

‘I saw a dark sky, and tall battlements,’ he said. ‘And tiny stars. It seemed very far away and long ago, yet hard and clear. Then the stars went in and out – they were cut off by things with wings. Very big, I think, really; but in the glass they looked like bats wheeling round the tower. I thought there were nine of them. One began to fly straight towards me, getting bigger and bigger. It had a horrible – no, no! I can’t say.

[Drifa]

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Look, obviously for practical reasons - chatting with Saruman and all that - Sauron removed the Ithil Stone to the Dark Tower.

But why then does Tolkien treat us to this scene of the nine Nazgul? Why does he point us to Minas Morgul? Is he pointing us to an absence - to the tower with the stone that is absent (foreshadowing the Elf-tower in the next age)?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Does this work with images hosted on Google photos? This is a test - could someone let me know if they see this image?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Hi @Priya, I found your wordpress blog through the links to the images of your plaza posts. I had encountered it before, and must say that when I did, some years back, I could make nothing of it. However, I am now approaching the end of a long study of the design of LotR. In this study I have in fact put Bombadil quite out of the picture, concerning myself only with towers, stones, and rings. But now that I have the design of the story more or less clear in mind I am actually astonished reading your 'Enigma' page. Where before the notion of theatrical stage and audience seemed to me, well, a bit random, I now have a sense of you seeing things that I had never noticed. These are thoughts as I read.

This just hits me as right.

Tolkien needed a representation of the audience – be it only one member. There simply was no way around the issue; out of necessity, this was to be Tom Bombadil’s primary secret role.

PS. The 'in' here seems to be a typo: "When Bilbo disappeared in wearing the Ring..."

What kinds of reactions did you receive? I would bet it was carping and non-comprehending. Part of the problem is that people don't understand even the things that they should do, like the thesis of 'On Fairy-stories'. What I am reading now on your page about the audience as non-domineering is (imo) spot on and precisely the right way to get to the heart of Tolkien's ideal of enchantment (which Tom indeed embodies).

Right - I'm halfway through but have to go out; will continue (and read from the top) when I get back. I've just got to Goldberry. So let me ask a question, if I may, what do you think about the childless state of Tom and Goldberry? It seems to me very significant, although I am not sure I can say why.

Just returned, dived in, and read this:

After shaping and enrichment, sentient anthropomorphic life began to awaken on land and it is conjectured Tom became so enrapt that the viewing zone failed to sate a growing hunger. He wanted to experience ‘the play’ as closely as possible. To physically touch it and interact with the cast was the inevitable next chapter; and in due time he also knew he had a minor part to play ‘on stage’.

Priya, you have a touch of genius.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Chrys: I see the bird in the sky. Upon the Ithil stone according Tolkien Gateway, where the stone was, in Sauron's hands:

"The Ithil-stone was the palantír that stood in Isildur's ancient fortress of Minas Ithil, placed there soon after the founding of the city. The stone was captured by the Nazgûl in T.A. 2002 when the city fell to them and became known as Minas Morgul. The stone was used by Sauron to entrap Saruman and deceive Denethor during the War of the Ring. It is likely that the stone was destroyed in the fall of Barad-dûr."

Drifa: That smiley in the middle.