Do you as members feel a need for rules on which threads belong in which fora? Vote now!

[Arnyn]

Hey, everyone!

When @Narv created the Nuplaza in 2020, he meant it as a nostalgia project, to have fun with and maybe to bring nostalgia and fun to others in was what a challenging and rather strange time.
Nuplaza was swamped with veteran members, and they knew what belonged where, or guessed and made the best of it. It was all very organic and no one felt the need for any rules or guidelines on the matter. It just worked out!

Recent developments and member feedback are starting to show that this might not be the best way forward anymore.

So @Rivvy Elf , @Silky Gooseness and I would like to ask you all, as the member base, what your preferences are at this point.

Would you prefer to have rules (you can call them guidelines, but since they would be enforced, let's be fair and call a pig a pig) on what belongs where?
This would mean that when an admin sees a thread which, according to the rules, fits better in a different forum, they would move it, post about having moved it in the thread according to rule x, and that would be that.
This would also mean that when a member sees a thread which doesn't really belong in place x, and reports it to an admin, that admin would move the thread, post about having moved it in the thread and why, and that would be that.
This would also mean that you're committing to not being bothered by an admin possibly moving your threads.

Then vote 'yes'.

Would you prefer to continue as is, without any set guidelines or rules?
This would mean that if someone else's threads appear in a specific forum and you feel they don't quite belong there, you'd have to just live and let live.
This would also mean that you can be relatively sure your thread will stay where you want it to stay, as long as your thread doesn't break any existing rules.

Then vote 'no".

Thanks!

Edit: The poll will run for one week (so get your vote in before Friday March 22nd)

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Personally, I find it hard to take that you are conducting a poll about where to place posts and yet i am still awaiting discussion of how it is possible to make Lore a safe space. My TLDR post about antisemitism has never met a coherent response, and the fact that I do not post in Lore appears to be attributed to a personal sulk combined with my own insanity.

I do not post in Lore because you have failed to make it a safe space. And @Arnyn the fact that you threatened yestereday to move my Undertowers posts to Lore demonstrates that you have not listened to me when I have talked to you about what it means to live in a time of war.

The question I would beg you all to consider is this: if the plaza is to move on from its prohibition of discussion of sensitive issues like religion, how can we do this and still in a way that maintains the traditional values of the plaza of tolerance and diversity?

Can I just say that I get seriously bugged when it is intimated to me that I must be a Christian to understand Tolkien. I recognize that these are the kind of things that are said without people appreciating how offensive they are being. But I wish there were some mechanisms established to negotiate this kind of thing.

I tried this the other day with a very minor request that the Hebrew scriptures not be referred to as the Christian Bible. The response was polite, but the one admin I mentioned did not respond, and nor did any other.

I am 100% OK if this place decides to return to the ban on religion. I would have little interest in being here, because it is obvious to me that to get to grips with Tolkien we have to face the religious questions. And I would dearly like to see the plaza a place where we are able to do this. But it requires some work.

I find it unbelievable that I have raised the issue of antisemitism in the wake of a terrorist massacre and a horrific and ungoing war and nobody is prepared to deal with it.

Fredgar your poll.

[Ephtariat]

@Arnyn I vote No.

@Hill I hope the person who intimated you to become a Christian to understand Tolkien is not me, because that was certainly not my intention. It does not take to be a Christian to recognize that an author who is a Christian and writes about Eucatastrophe as the Gospel is not trying somehow to deal with the hard facts that life is pain, but is affirming hope in Christian salvation. I hope this does not offend anyone. You joked about people jumping on trees for fear of Christian joy once, and you made me laugh. I would truly be disappointed if you started jumping on trees yourself.

[Silky Gooseness]

Hi @Hill: the plaza rules indicate that there’s no room for discussing e.g. the merits of one religion over another. It’s fine to discuss, for example, the impacts of religious belief on an author’s text. The Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Old Testament contain many similarities although they are not identical and mislabelling is an error which we understand had been dealt with through a polite referral, as you note.

If someone has been making any anti semitic posts please report them and the admins will deal with the issue. Reporting members will not always see the outcome of how the issues have been resolved, such as warnings or strikes, but they remain on the offender’s record.

@Ephtariat - don’t worry, Rivvy’s post was a misread so no issues raised here. Please do click “no” in the poll to vote no! It allows everyone to see the results at a glance rather than going through and counting by comment.

Thanks all

[Ephtariat]

"A kingdom with many rules is about to fall" (Friedrich Nietzsche)

Thanks, @Silky Gooseness. No worries!

[Pele Alarion]

A few rules can provide a good framework, though. Looking at the practical side of things, it does help to have threads grouped by their characteristics rather than if they were tossed all about and were difficult to find at need.

[Ercassie]

I voted yes.

Because, well I'm sorry, but the poll is asking about the location of posts, not the content. And since the same content can be viewed or replied to in every forum by any member on the site, I fail to understand how moving lore content from the assigned lore forum, and putting it instead into another forum on the same site makes it feel any 'safer' to those who are involved in said threads.

Instead it adds to confusion and indecision for anyone in regards to knowing where is best to post .. anything. Which was actually proven by recent posts made in the admin forum over the fact that people were asking about guidance about where best to post various types of content.

[Moriel]

I voted yes - I don't think we need a ton of rules, but having some basic visible guidelines won't hurt the plaza veterans who know what they're doing, and will be helpful for newbies! Making things easier for new folks is welcoming and more likely to help them want to stick around.

[Arnyn]

Thanks to all who've already voted! The poll will be open for one week, so get your votes in before Friday, March 22nd!

[Nieliqui Vaneyar]

Just a comment from an 'old' (ok older) member who doesn't get on near like before. Thinking about Tolkien, LOTR and Rules brings back thoughts of the Shire and Sharkey's Men. I like having guidelines that are reasonably enforced which is why I voted 'yes', as if I were to start posting threads again, I'd surely want them in the best placed topics to get the most involvement in them. I hope to be at Kalamazoo in May for at least a day, I also started subscribing to Jess of Shire as her blogs bring back lots of memories of the intense discussions that took place daily...in days gone by on the previous site. I still think rather fondly of Halfir, rest his soul.

[Romeran]

On the one had there wouldn’t be different subfora if they didn’t exist for some measure of organization. On the other hand it’s not clear to me that this is a problem that needs addressing.

[Arnyn]

I'm going to add just a few notes to this thread, as a response to @Hill's post above, but they might be interesting for everyone.

Sil already replied to the comment about possible antisemitism, so there's need to repeat what the lovely goose has already said. Other than perhaps to add, on behalf of the whole admin team, that any sort of spreading of hate should not and will not be tolerated. This includes but is not limited to antisemitism. The plaza is a place where everyone needs to be respectful and polite to one another.

Personally I believe that tolerance and diversity means that everyone is respectful to each other. Respectful of who people are, but also respectful of their opinions. I don't think someone saying 'I think you need to be a Christian to understand a Christian' is necessarily meant to be a hateful opinion against non-Christians. I also think that someone else saying they disagree with this opinion, is not necessarily a hateful opinion against Christians. It's a difference in opinion, and dang, I think it's an interesting one to explore. Especially in this day and age. Can an atheist really understand a Christian, and vice versa? Can a man really understand a woman, and vice versa? Can I, as a woman working at my company, even really understand a female colleague, who I call a friend, even - when our personalities and experiences are very different? Maybe. Maybe not. Off the top of my head I think good, interesting points can be made for either point of view.

Moving back to the admin team's opinion, the team feels that stating something as an opinion, not a fact, is an opportunity to share perspectives. We want to emphasize that there’s a difference between saying “I think you have to be X to understand X” and saying “You can’t understand X because you’re not X”. When sharing an opinion, we therefore ask not to act as though that particular view is the only valid one. Disagreements of personal opinion are fine. Obviously. It is only when these disagreements turn into fights about which opinion (or belief) is "wrong or right”, or when a debate becomes rude, that we would step in.

The admins ask everyone to treat each other with kindness, and presume people are coming into discussions in good faith. Because of this, the admins will not be intervening on something the members involved can handle from A to Z in a mature and respectful manner, as with Hill's example involving scripture.

We do not want to reintroduce a ban on religion at this point. As long as everyone can continue to navigate the topic with respect and understanding for others. And it's always a two-way street.

The way we see it, Lore is just as safe a space as the rest of the forums are. Gondolin is the only one that is safer, because only plaza members can view it. Every individual forum is what the members of the site make it - within the framework of existing rules/guidelines. And this poll was created, as the OP states, with recent developments and member feedback in mind. Of course we realize there is no ideal solution that will work for every single plaza member. So rather than making a unilateral admin decision, which we could have done, we chose not to. We chose to invite everyone's opinion - or at least the members who are peeking in and thinking it is important enough to vote on.

@Hill, you have a right to your opinion on this poll. However the admins don't feel like you were respectful and polite in voicing this opinion. We do not appreciate the general sentiment or tone. So we'll have to ask you to be more mindful of it in the future.

I did not threaten to move your Undertowers posts to Lore, @Hill. I made a completely logical and factual comparison between two situations. If thread A requires moving because it fits better in X, then thread B also requires moving if it fits better in Y. It was not meant as a threat - but it's of course perfectly possible you perceived it as such. All I can say is I have only ever wished good things for you. I have only ever wanted life to give you some grace, especially given everything that has been thrown at you. I think deep down, you know that.
And if you want to talk more about it, I think we should do so one on one, so anything personal can stay personal. If you don't want to talk about it and would prefer space, I fully respect that.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

If someone has been making any anti semitic posts please report them and the admins will deal with the issue. Reporting members will not always see the outcome of how the issues have been resolved, such as warnings or strikes, but they remain on the offender’s record.

Sil. First, thanks for clarifying on the Bible. So far as I am aware, we are on the same page on this one. Second, please note that 'antisemitic' is better than 'anti-semitic' (for reasons that can be explained). Thirdly, what I have been asking for is not that you arrest any lurking antisemites but that you take my concerns seriously, which requires listening to me. Fourthly, if we are discussing books of the Bible then cultural appropriation with no acknowledgement of original language and source is not OK. Fifthly, so far as practical action goes, I am quite happy with how any perceived situation was dealt with. Sixthly, will you please stop assuming that you know what I am talking about when I talk about antisemitism? Seven, war does strange things and I had particular fears and I have got over them; but this does not mean that these issues are therefore to be put back inside the closet and not discussed.

I mean let me just say this as clear as I can. I have no doubt that I have been insane and hostile to many of you, and not just Sil. But I doubt you have any idea what it has cost me to contain myself and my emotions over the last few months. It has been of enormous importance to me to believe - or hope - that I could maintain a lifeline of communication with people who are living normal lives rather than facing armageddon. And I thank you all for it, and especially you Sil. But o my word - the times my jaw has dropped at the total and utter lack of imagination displayed by some of you. It was a good thing that Shire riddle had prepared me for the ways of the Admin collective brain. Good grief. So please listen to me, because I am so glad I got through that, and I feel deep gratitude to many of you for it. But I'd also be real happy to now call it a day and walk. Sil - stop hiding in a jam jar, find your voice, and have a conversation with me, if you wish. I aint gonna eat you.

[Silky Gooseness]

Hi all - thank you for your votes! The poll is now closed, and based on the results tidying up will begin shortly.

Chrysophylax:
Thanks for the correction on antisemitism over anti semitism and I shall use this language going forward, as suggested.

If I don’t know what you’re talking about, including any concerns, then please do clarify. The admin email is also open to you.

I refer you to the guidance on discussing religions: we are not here to discuss the merit of one religion over another, including accusations of cultural appropriation. Whether these arguments have merit or not, the Plaza is not the place for them.

I will also remind you that we ask everyone to respect one another. You accusing people of having a total lack of imagination can easily be seen as derogatory.

Lastly, *admin hat off*, I am pleased the Plaza has been a place of connection for you, especially during this difficult time. However, for the reasons you yourself highlight in your post, I would prefer to keep our relationship professional and not personal. I’m very happy to continue any Plaza related discussions on Plaza, or, for admin related issues, via admin mail.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Dear Silky Gooseness,

Thank you for your clarification. It would have saved me much time and grief if you had made it some months ago. It is the use of the word 'friend' in this place that confuses me. You used this word to me not long after October 7, and at the time I got quite the wrong idea and took you literally.

As for the issue of antisemitism. I am not correcting your spelling - there are two ideologies involved, and with your spelling you choose one.

I began Undertowers because I will not post in Lore, and I said some months ago that I would not post in Lore because of my issues with antisemitism. I am aware how toxic such a complaint may become and have gone out of my way to prevent this from happening. But I have not been taken seriously.

Your administration - and I am talking about you - is out of step with your DEI. I have taken the DEI seriously from the first day I read it, and I have read it again very carefully recently, and it is the reason that I am still here. Your personal response to my concerns of antisemitism leave me with deep concerns.

I am sorry to say that I will not be voting for you at the next admin elections.

[Karis Ziranphel]

Dude, what a way to hijack a thread and turn it into personal insults and accusations rather the subject of the poll. I'm sorry to hear you are going through difficulties and have faced misunderstandings, but it is not an excuse. I often stay silent, but feel this is important to say something about. Both Arnyn and sil have been perfectly polite and given the benefit of the doubt from what I can see, but it apparently has not been returned. I'm not an admin, and I don't know you, but have been around the plaza in its various forms for over twenty years now. It is generally best for all involved to treat one another with common courtesy rather than resorting to insults. Tempers can get lost easily, and I have learned the hard way (and still am learning) to reread many times before responding if my first reaction is anger or insult, and try to ask for clarification before assuming intent. Written words are lacking in inflection, and we can often give a different mental tone to them than may have been intended by the writer, although sometimes it isn't a misread.

As to the topic you introduced: in English both spellings are still very much in use and most people have no idea that there could be further connotations to adding or subtracting a hyphen. Where I live in the US I don't recall mention of it before, and don't exactly live under a rock. I had to look up what the big deal was. This article was helpful but also shows that most people don't assume ill-intent with a difference in spelling, and claiming that intent is obvious is being disingenuous: https://www.timesofisrael.com/whats-in- ... s-meaning/ I will try to be conscious of my spelling usage going forward, but it was not on my radar previously either.

We all have different areas of interest on the Plaza, which is well and good. I admit I spend probably 99% of my time on the plaza in the Gondor forum and not poking around the other areas despite them each being quite lovely and worthwhile in their own way, so I don't see everything going on. I hope you can still find a place that you take joy in without detracting from others or their interests detracting from yours.

Peace be with you.

[Ephtariat]

@Karis Ziranphel I imagine you've been in a lot of wars fought around your house to lecture @Chrysophylax Dives about how to properly behave during bombing.

[Ercassie]

Since the poll which this thread refers to has reached its deadline already, could I politely request that a kind admin close this thread before it descends into an outlet for yet further upset for all persons concerned, and indeed all/any persons in general who may come across it ?

If any new members should by any chance come across this sort of thing, I doubt it will encourage any one of them, or existing members for that matter, to stay on the site and contribute here to the reason we all presumably come here: for good times, not arguments. I am sure there is more than one member of this site who is having a difficult time behind their keyboard but if we were to air all grievances here, it is no longer a Tolkien fan site, but a social media hotbed of raw feelings.

Many thanks for consideration.

[Ephtariat]

@Ercassie I just feel like being stressed out at work and being under bombs are two very different things, but hey, surely that's just me...

[Ercassie]

@Ephtariat, a fair point. But my suggestion was not aimed at you or any one person in particular. I simply detest when these sorts of threads get out of control and would request it is stopped before anyone else gets upset.

The site is not meant to solve everyone's issues. It is the place we come to escape our RL issues, all of us. And if those RL issues affect the site them it is up to the admins to deal with it professionally and privately. Not for things to descend into a full blown venting for all and sundry.

[Ephtariat]

@Ercassie I just felt like @Chrysophylax Dives was being treated unfairly and spoke a few words in his defence. I'm having a good day besides that.

[Silky Gooseness]

I appreciate this thread is getting somewhat off track and so in response to requests this will be locked. As per the results of the poll, a consolidation exercise will shortly take place: I will also remind all members that Gondolin is a member-exclusive place to post which is not topic-restricted, and you may make your threads there invite-only if you wish.

To address the statements and concerns made to me and the admin team: Chrys, perhaps I was overly optimistic in believing we could be friends at that time. I don’t think you’ve treated me as I expect a friend to be treated, so I hope instead we can be at least cordial, and if not that, mutually respectful.

You have yet to clearly explain to the admin team your reasons for why the Shire is preferable to Lore, or any issues regarding antisemitism which remain unresolved. Saying you have not been taken seriously is unfair. You have made vague and unclear allegations with nothing substantive for us to address. This includes this very post where you claim we are out of step with the DEI, with, once again, no specifics or evidence. Please do bring anything that concerns you on the Plaza to the admin email and we will do our best to resolve it. If you wish me not to be involved, I will respect this wish.

Nobody will be voting for me at the next admin elections, as I have no intention of standing for re-election.