Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

Ok..seems I need to jack up my prices. LOL

Alright. So, I'm in front of my notes and did a bunch more research too. The only place I found a price for flour was in a book about islamic prices in medieval spain. It had 1 rub of flour being 12 dirham. That led me to figure out what the heck that translated to. So I did some digging and found 1 rub is (if I'm understanding everything right) 25 pounds. So then, what the heck is a dirham. In another book, I it said 10 dirham was 1 dinar which was 1 gold coin. In another site I had been using to translate the british currency from the time had 1 pound coin as a gold coin. So for simplicity sake, I made them equal. The old pound coin was 20 shillings (or 240 pence (I'm going somewhere with this, don't worry)). So, where does this lead?

I need to go back to my original pricing scheme. Where I had come up with the original 1.2 gold for a bushel of wheat was the highest price I had found which was around 1258 as there was a very bad famine, and the price for bushel was 144 pence / 12 shillings. I set the shilling to equal the electrum. This was because the old british currency was farthing-pence-shilling-crown (pound was in there too as it was bigger than the crown, but I ignored that). It lined up nicely with the copper-silver-electrum-gold. Whether what I did was wrong, I don't know, but whatever. The 12 shillings, in my pricing equated to 12 electrum, which in turn equated to 1.2 gold.

Back to the price of flour I discussed above. Thus, 1 rub of flour comes to 288 pence/silver = 28.8 electrum = 2.88 gold. This in turn makes 1 pound of flour = 11.52 silver or 115.2 copper.

In doing this further research, I added 22 more data points to my grain pricing, and averaged the 23 prices. Because I had used heavily over priced point previously, obviously this would be far cheaper. It averaged now to 16.88 pence (silver) which makes the bushel .1688 gold. Which when extrapolated out, makes 1 pound of flour roughly 3 copper.

Here is how I did the math. Note, 10.1 lbs / 5.1 lbs / 1.1 lbs is used to have that discount effect.

60 lbs for 1.2 gold = 10.1 lbs for .202 gold = 5.1 lbs for .10302 gold = 1 lb for .022664 gold. I gave a 1 silver discount for the 10 and 5 lbs of meal as not as much grinding needed to be done.

Using the average price calculated above would be
60 lbs for .168832 gold = 10.1 lbs for .02842 gold = 5.1 lbs for .014494 gold = 1 lb for .003189 gold.

((edit at 3:29 pm.) If I don't convert down to the rub price down to the pence and stick with the shilling / electrum like I had done originally, the price would be 24 electrum or 2.4 gold which would be roughly 96 copper for 1 lb of flour. Using my discount calculation above, it'd be:
25 lbs for 2.4 gold = 60 lbs for 5.76 gold = 10.1 lbs for .9696 gold = 5.1 lbs for .494496 gold = 1 lb for .108789 gold. This 1 pound of flour would be about 108 copper)

Sorry for the info dump.

Here are my sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushel
http://www.medievalcoinage.com/prices/m ... prices.htm
https://thehistoryofengland.co.uk/resou ... and-wages/
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 4.10407617
https://books.google.com/books?id=bHh5p ... es&f=false
http://projectbritain.com/moneyold.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shilling
https://books.google.com/books?id=ra9Bt ... ht&f=false

Here is a price document I found but didn't use. http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html

Just fyi, I updated my grocers post to be a bit more fitting with the timeframe MT is in. I dont know about actual prices when someone comes to buy, but will prolly work around Turins work :)

@Winddancer, was I that bad?

I just tried to be thorough, and somewhat realistic. I don't know. *hides*

Noo! You were that GOOD! <3 I love it when people research, makes everything more believable :D I meant that I would use your prices as base for what to sell my goods for if anyone comes around :D

:smiley8: Researching things is something I really like doing. Part of one of my jobs IRL involves a lot of research. Some very obscure and I love it. Though sometimes, I wish some of my clients had normal work for me to do.

Haha, never wish for normal, it can be boring! :P I am always grateful when someone goes to those lengths, as then I dont have to

I know I have some posts to get to, don't worry I have not forgotten, just been dealing with some things at home. This Market is planned for me tomorrow.

@Winddancer love the subtle edit with the prices on your grocer's post. I'm anticipating some haggle over the price of lemons in the future

Thanks! :) And looking forward to it :D

@Turin Ringhûn Your meticulous research just came in useful, as did your money conversions. Thanks again! I've ben looking into fabric prices. What I've been able to find was linen costing between 6d and 12d the ell, and making a shirt (the price of the tailor's work) being 2d unless it was embroidered. 3 shillings was a normal price for a woollen dress (again, the fabric would be the expensive part, the work - much cheaper.)
@Winddancer post with all this research poured into it coming right up.

Looking forward to it @Galastel ! :D

@Galastel, Glad I could be of service. I thought that it be of some help to post the links I had found/used so others could maybe find some use in them.

@Veowyn, I’ll get on my response soon.

@Galastel well done with fitting all of your research into the post. Although, I did have to google how much was an ell in metres I looked like that Math lady gif while trying to figure that one out.

@Nessa Saelind Tolkien uses 'ell', (when Sam measures the length of the elven rope,) so it seemed fitting.

@Galastel yes, it showed up when I googled ell in the end, but for the life of me I couldn't remember that it was mentioned TTT. When I first read the books, I read it in Croatian translation, and I think the translator made a footnote and explained the length in metres, but when I reread the whole trilogy last year I must have ignored that information because it was not in immediately recognisable units

@Lirimaer Just a heads up, Leiryn hasnt been on since May 20th :)

Yes, I saw that yesterday after making my grand plan :/ ... I'm not too bothered, though - just giving her another chance to respond before I plough on regardless. I shall contrive!

No worries! Wasn't sure if you knew or not :)

No, I appreciate it <3

@Lirimaer Did I miss you asking to be added to the list as a Metalsmith? I will be happy to do so, if you want

Er no, you did not, but I am SORELY tempted to keep this NPC and do so - he has a whole backstory now! (I am on the Queen's Quest, you see.)

Oh go on then, you've twisted my arm ... what do I need?

Btw, I was just reading Galastels post and it dawned on me that in the old days in Denmark they used to pay the baker to cook their meat in the oven (like a roast or chicken and such). It was usually around the holidays when you would be making more than usual and you couldnt fit it into your own oven. Possibly something that the baker here could also do? @Isolde Alarion

And sorry for ruffling Alan's hair @Galastel ! Liriel is annoying like that :oops:

You don't need anything, @Lirimaer . I'll add Ivor to the op as a metalsmith. Also, give me a day and i can get a post of my Vandani filling in at the book binder for you

Oh @Veowyn could I please have the clay pipe maker? Amlaith will be the NPC for there :) Thankies <3

Of course Windy dear

Also to not overwhelm Isolde/ Nell, we can also say that there's a kitchen in the guild hall for the grocers? And apprentices there could help people roast meat? Just a thought, if Issy doesn't want to use the bakery for that

Many thanks milady!

Winddancer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:11 pm Btw, I was just reading Galastels post and it dawned on me that in the old days in Denmark they used to pay the baker to cook their meat in the oven (like a roast or chicken and such)

Well thanks to you two talking about food I'm hungry now! :o And i had lunch an hour and a half ago! Must avoid reading Marketplace posts with food mentioned in it when hungry!

Perhaps you are secretly a hobbit, Nessa - I know I certainly am!

No problem at all, Veowyn, I can wait - thank you!

@Veowyn Oh I doubt many will, I wasnt wanting to. I was just doing some genealogy and thought of it :)

Lirimaer wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:57 pmPerhaps you are secretly a hobbit, Nessa - I know I certainly am!

I think we are all secretly hobbits or if we aren't quarantine has certainly made us into one

Oh yes! :smiley8:

@Winddancer Liriel is amazing - she gave Alan something to be grumpy about. Conflict drives story.

Thanks!

@Lirimaer I posted for ya, something small, stalling for time for Leiryn mostly.

Okie doke, I'll take a look, thanks!

@Veowyn or @Leiryn Sulelinde Hi, this is what I'd like you to make for me! Thank you

@Galastel -- Is the NPC for the fabric merchant one of yours, or someone I should just create?
--also, not super important, but just as a side note: Zev is actually pretty short, like 5' 6"

@Lucifer pretty sure that is an NPC as no one has that shop and Galastel just NPCed it when she posted.

Right-o, my question didn't read quite as I meant it-- meant to ask if she wanted to control the NPC in our interactions, or if I should.

Ah no worries, will leave that one for her :D

@Lucifer *Grumbling something incoherent about non-metric measurements and what they convert to.* For some reason I remembered it as ~1.80m rather than ~1.70m. (It is 1.70m, right? Non-decimal measurements are confusing even when I try to use google for conversions.) I'll edit my post later, but it shouldn't make too much difference - Myrtle barely scratches 1.50m on a good day. Her eye-level is still below Zev's chin.
Go ahead and create/control the fabric merchant. I just postulated the shop's there (because it's got to be there), so there's got to be someone working it. Definitely don't want it to be one of my NPCs: that would give me a monopoly over the whole clothes manufacturing process. (I'm still hoping someone would want to play that shop.)

Oh, I don't even recall writing meters anywhere- but I totally believe you. If I did accidentally write 1.80, it's not what I meant. 1.7 would be about right. But either way, it sounds like it'll work out just fine!

And sounds good on the NPC front!

No, I meant I did the conversion at some point, and either I did it wrong, or I remembered it wrong, and either way it was too complicated to check.

I wouldn't mind having Nell cook the meats..it would give her/me something to write about which is always fun. lol
But if someone doesn't want to wait on anyone then yes, there is the bakers guide where I'm sure they can use the ovens there.

I wouldnt expect anyone to just NPC your store! Even in the real old days, you paid the baker to do it ;)

Winddancer wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:32 am I wouldnt expect anyone to just NPC your store! Even in the real old days, you paid the baker to do it ;)

Are you referring to my questions, Windy? I'm not making a store. Zev is just visiting, and was going to purchase some clothing-- and might need to buy some cloth. So, I'm NPC'ing a shopkeeper for the purpose of visiting a shop, not having one. I wouldn't expect everyone else to NPC a shop I owned. XD

No! Haha, so sorry! That was meant for Isolde and her bakery, sorry for the confusion!

Galastel wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 11:58 pm*Grumbling something incoherent about non-metric measurements and what they convert to.*

*inserts math lady gif* Finally someone else who is equally confused as I am when presented with measurements outside the SI system or as I like to think of it: As God intended!