Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

Well, I'm back.

Thoughts on Grishnakh were prompted in another thread, but Ugluk's warning to Grishnakh has always interested me: "You seem to know a lot," said Ugluk. "More than is good for you, I guess." (The Two Towers: The Uruk-hai)

This is Ugluk's response to Grishnakh talking about the Nazgul, and how Sauron will not unleash the winged Nazgul just yet, "they're for the war, and other purposes" he says. Then later, it becomes evident to Pippin that Grishnakh knows about the Ring and he is able to trick Grishnakh into thinking he has it. It's one of my disappointments in TTT movie, because Grishnakh is shown to be driven by just wanting to munch on some hobbit legs. We miss out on an interesting orc, as well as Pippin's development, to be quick thinking and resourceful! Anyway, a couple curiosities...

For an orc, Ugluk's right, Grishnakh seems to know a lot. How did this happen? How did this come to be, because orcs I've assumed just can't be trusted for such an important tasks. Or trusted with "classified" information, such as knowing about the One Ring. Look at what happens between Shagrat and Gorbag, they only seem to vaguely know the boss wants a "weapon" for the war. Grishnakh, however, appears to know specific details about the Ring, the Nazgul, and Gollum's capture.

And then there's the ironic warning Ugluk gives about knowing "more than is good for you," because it is this knowledge of the Ring that leads to Grishnakh's demise. Any thoughts on how Grishnakh, became such a learned orc?

The optimist in me sees it as proof that orcs have their own will and desires... which has serious implications in terms of whether they are ultimately Eru's, rather than Melkor's, child in the end. A nice subtle showing of how even the things Melkor creates glorifies Eru's plan in the long term.

The strategist in me sees another possibility that Sauron was thinking several steps ahead to prevent Saruman from backstabbing him and chose a specific orc to give certain key information to ensure that Sauron ends up with the One Ring in the end, rather than Saruman, and that Grishnakh would not be mislead by people like Ugluk, or potentially even the Voice of Saruman.

I think orcs certainly have their own ambitions and desires, as exemplified by the tracker-hunter pair Frodo and Sam end up eavesdropping on who talk of leaving the Big Boss’s outfit entirely. It doesn’t seem out of character for an Orc to be ambitious within their current employment structure either, and to weasel out information useful to them or to try to earn added privileges by being more useful and trusted to the Boss?

Thank you both for your replies.

The Elf Imperishable: The optimist in me sees it as proof that orcs have their own will and desires... which has serious implications in terms of whether they are ultimately Eru's, rather than Melkor's, child in the end. A nice subtle showing of how even the things Melkor creates glorifies Eru's plan in the long term.

That is why I like the few orcs we do get to know, even if they're just tidbits. I believe Grishnakh, Gorbag, Shagrat are examples to exactly what you say here. And I'm becoming more interested in Grishnakh, because he comes off as exceptionally intelligent for an orc. I also think, though, it's important to remember a lot of this is still conjecture, and sometimes that can lead to misinterpreting differences. It seems like Grishnakh knows more about the Ring and Sauron's plans, than say Gorbag and Shagrat, and thus he probably does...but how? Is it because he's a high ranking orc, privy to more of the "classified" information? In calling Saruman a "dirty" and "treacherous" wizard, Grishnakh also refers to himself as the "trusted messenger" to Lugburz. Mordor seems secretive that Sauron keeps information close to the vest, but maybe all of his orcs knowing he's searching for his Ring that would help win the War, was fairly common knowledge? Or Grishnakh sounds like he knows more than them, because he's simply more intelligent, like Sam being more aware of elves than Ted Sandyman. To @Silky Gooseness's point about orcs having their own ambitions and desires, especially one as intelligent as Grishnakh. Reading the relevant parts in The Uruk-hai again, it's clear he knows a lot, and Ugluk's warning comes true.

This is what we know for certain.

-Ugluk says his orders are to take the prisoners to Isengard.
-Grishnakh says his orders are to take them to Lugburz. He also refers to himself as Lugburz's "trusted messenger" and says that Saruman was a "dirty, treacherous" wizard. Grishnakh tells Ugluk there is a Nazgul waiting on the east bank of the Anduin to take the prisoners to Lugburz for questioning.
-The Isengarders and Grishnakh's orcs have a kerfuffle. It's noted that Grishnakh manages to "slip away." When he slips away, he's going to the east bank to report to the Nazgul, that Saruman's ordered his orcs to take the prisoners to Isengard. This fits in line with Gandalf saying that Sauron will soon find out about Saruman's treachery: "No tidings of the battle will come to Mordor, thanks to the horsemen of Rohan; but the Dark Lord knows that two hobbits were taken in the Emyn Muil and borne away towards Isengard against the will of his own servants. He now has Isengard to fear as well as Minas Tirith. If Minas Tirith falls, it will go ill with Saruman." (The Two Towers: The White Rider)
-Grishnakh rejoins Ugluk's band after delivering his report to the Nazgul on the east bank. This is me assuming, but seeing as how the events play out in the chapter, Grishnakh was instructed by the Nazgul to rejoin Ugluk, and bring back the hobbits so they can be taken to Lugburz for questioning.

The following is conjecture:

-Grishnakh immediately reacts to Pippin's "gollum" trick. This is what ironically makes Ugluk's statement come true...Grishnakh knows more than what's good for him. He's intelligent.
-He's ambitious. The exchange between him and Ugluk that prompted the idea for this thread:
"Splendid!" laughed Ugluk. "But unless you've got some guts for fighting, you've taken the wrong way. Lugburz was your road. The Whiteskins are coming. What's happened to your precious Nazgul? Has he had another mount shot under him? Now, if you'd brought him along, that might have been useful - if these Nazgul are all they make out."

"Nazgul, Nazgul," said Grishnakh, shivering and licking his lips as if the word had a foul taste that he savored painfully. "You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk" he said. "Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that! Ape!" he snarled fiercely. "You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye. But the winged Nazgul: not yet, not yet. He won't let them show themselves across the Great River yet, not too soon. They're for the War - and other purposes." (The Two Towers: The Uruk-hai)
He says something interesting about the Nazgul, that "they are the apple of the Great Eye." The Nazgul, being Sauron's top and most trusted agents was probably common knowledge among the orcs. But this comment seems to me to reek of envy. "Nazgul," Grishnak his "licking his lips" at the word, "savoring" it. Earlier he refers to himself as a "trusted messenger." It shows he's ambitious, and makes me think he was promised a reward by the Nazgul waiting on the east bank if he brought back the hobbits. It seems likely, to me, the Nazgul would use promises of reward and privileges to, well orcs such as Grishnakh. An orc that has shown to more usefulness and intelligence...the reward of becoming one of Sauron's Nazgul? Some orcs might not think that is a reward, but Grishnakh sounds envious when he speaks of them.

-Was Grishnakh working under the Nazgul that tortured Gollum? His reaction to Pippin's trick suggests he knew about Gollum's capture, but it's hard to tell for sure how common this information was...maybe it wasn't a "classified" secret in Mordor? There's also this to comment to Pippin that makes me think Grishnakh had more information about Gollum than your average orc:

"My dear tender littler fools," hissed Grishnakh, "everything you have, and everything you know, will be got out of you in due time, everything! You'll wish there was more that you could tell to satisfy the Questioner, indeed you will: quite soon. We shan't hurry the enquiry." (ibid)

"the Questioner" sounds more like Grishnakh is referring to one of the Nazgul rather than being a title for Sauron. But that's also speculation.

Finally popping in after @Boromir88 pointed me this way to say that I'm generally of an opinion with @The Elf Imperishable -- I think the various private schemes of the orcs we see (all in Two Towers, interestingly enough) stand in marked contrast to the single-minded viciousness of orcs in other times (outside Helm's Deep, or in Moria) and in interesting conversation with the repentance of human servants of the Enemy -- such as the Dunlendings at Helm's Deep or Sam's witness of the ambush in Ithilien. The truth of the matter is that we are not meant to hold compassion or sympathy for orcs -- when we see them as anything other than single-minded servants of the enemy or beasts, they are conniving and self-serving (I think, given the tone of conversation around him, it is far more likely that Grishnakh has been sneaking or spying to discover what he knows than it is that he was in charge of the interrogation in any meaningful way).

That being said, this seed of independence -- meant, in the moment, to demonstrate the baseness and unreliability of Sauron's servants -- is, for me, one of the great redeeming inconsistencies in Tolkien's works. The truth of the matter is that there are deeply problematic throughlines in T -- especially when it comes to issues of race -- and critics are right to name T's depiction of the orcs as fundamentally racist. That being said I think Tolkien's own uncertainty over the origin and exact nature of the orcs is (for me, anyway) one of the reasons I hold out hope that -- were the Professor alive and writing today -- the representation of "evil peoples" in Middle-earth would be far different: I truly think that Tolkien's ongoing hesitation and uncertainty over the orcs is representative of the fact that he could not square the existence of a truly "evil race" with his own personal theology: the reason for this, of course, is that the fundamental racism there is incompatible with the ultimate salvation of all souls -- Tolkien's religion and his unquestioned assumptions are, imo, in opposition, even if he didn't realize it.

I've gotten totally off track here -- but there's my two cents.

Tolkien’s evolving thoughts on this make it so interesting. Orcs with self-will = people, with independence and souls = not wholly evil and created corrupt, rather, a life given by Eru and then corrupted = capable of salvation?

Or Orcs = a life-form created corrupt and not independent, only given a form of life by Melkor = no individuality = wholly abominable? But then a far less interesting villain.

I don’t think at many points do we see the completely brutish Orc with no thoughts of its own, just a mindless drone, except perhaps when they are gripped by extreme fear? Which suggests to me the former must be truer to Tolkien’s thoughts when he was writing Orcs.

They’re not just independent but capable of their own societies - kings, families, vengeance (they seem to take the Dwarf wars *very personally*) and are sophisticated enough to use medicines - Merry is healed in *orc-fashion* which suggests it is developed by orcs, and not only that, but that mark of civilisation which is tending to the wounded.

Yes @Silky Gooseness I think that tension is the question -- and the cause of Tolkien's ongoing dissatisfaction with orcs once he put aside the mindless drones of Melkor / stones brought to life origin. Tolkien seems to recognize that it is incompatible with his theology to write off entire populations of people as unsavable: hence the constant rewritings, yet he does write them that way, at times -- this is one of the questions George RR Martin famously asks: what becomes of the orcs after the end of the War of the Ring? Does Aragorn make peace with them? Does he drive them off permanently? Kill them all? The first option is not suggested by the text -- the latter options are unpalatable if we imagine orcs as people who might be saved.

The truth is that I think we must see this as an inconsistency of Tolkien's creation -- a way in which the secondary world is, perhaps, limited by the subcreator's short-sightedness. The image of the orcs as a "bestial" or "savage" culture which must be rooted out IS inconsistent because it's an inconsistent belief -- a racist one, in fact, which doesn't hold up to the level of scrutiny Tolkien hoped to bring to his secondary world.