Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

And here we go with episode 2:

TV Maze wrote: Galadriel find a new ally. Elrond faces a cold reception from an old friend. Nori endeavors to help a Stranger. Arondir searches for answers while Bronwyn warns her people of a threat.

Written by Patrick McKay & John D. Payne and directed by J.A. Bayona

Two episodes in, a quarter through the season now, how are things shaping up?

First Impressions:

1) The Dwarves!! This is the kind of dwarven kingdom I had hoped to see in the Hobbit and had been disappointed, Khazad-dûm was impressive, I really liked how they made the city "not darksome but full of light and splendor" and Durin looks likes like a damn dwarf and Disa, even if I'm not in love with her name, has some facial hair, all is not lost in the end

2) I enjoyed Celebrimbor's casual disregard for his grandfather even if he loved the works he did, I also enjoy seeing his motivations, ambition is a family trait and it's a family trait we know leads to bad, bad things

3) Is Bronwyn's kid supposed to be a future Nazgûl? Khamul if I'm correct that they're all Easterlings? Feels a bit odd, since they were supposed to be kings and such, but I might be wrong so I'll reserve judgement until then

4) Orcs! Damn, those buggers are nasty creatures. It's easy to forget how nasty they can be when you have the heroes wading through them like water but up against "normal" folk they are as dangerous as they are made to sound, and industrial little bastards as well

5) Still no Celeborn, I might start a "Where's Celeborn" trend in these threads and bemoan the lack of inclusion of the must cucked elf.

6) So Galadriel just thought she'd... swim the thousands of miles back to Middle-earth? Hmmmmm, someone needs a lesson in geography

7) This Stranger fellow, I don't know about him. I can't tell if he's good or bad, he's a bit of both it seems. My theory is [SPOILER]He's Gandalf[/SPOILER] but it's far too early for that to be the case so I suppose we will have to see/

8) Was that Elendil right at the end there?

Crack predictions before I watch the episode (tomorrow):

“Galadriel find a new ally. Elrond faces a cold reception from an old friend. Nori endeavors to help a Stranger. Arondir searches for answers while Bronwyn warns her people of a threat.”

Galadriel’s new ally is either cirdan the shipwright, as he would be really competent at making sure there was no accidents or Celeborn, because the only reasonable reason he was not there in episode one is that they aren’t married yet.

Elrond gets a visit from Maglor, who is on the coast of Lindon right now and raised him growing up. The cold reception comes from the fact that maglor has criticisms of Gil-Galad’s foreign policy, knowing all too well the consequences of not uprooting an enemy completely.

Nori helps a stranger who is actually Sauron in disguise.

Arondir finds the answers, and the villagers listen to Bronwyn, cause cow milk ain’t supposed to look like oil!

The Dwarves HONESTLY YES. ALL OF THE YES. I may also be thinking that somewhere someone was reading my first LOTR fanfic where I described Underground forests and plants filled with light from mirrors. (It's still up on Fanfiction.net I'm sure from 2002/2003) Honestly how they looked how they acted yes. I loved the disregard for Elrond and the challenge, I loved Disa, and how they described the resonating and the USE of voice and describing how it happens. Honestly I love the entire idea of it (I also really loved the sound wave patterning with the sand for the opening intro which has to do with resonating and how earth/sand etc reacts to sound waves on a vibrating sound disk. I like that the dwarves even the female dwarves READ as dwarves. I did feel like a few of them were a bit tall I felt like some of them were only a few inches shorter than Elrond in a few of the shots which I think was just sloppy angles which was something the original trilogy was SO absolutely careful with when they aren't here it stands out.


Celebrimbor.... Honestly I kinda really wanted him to say. Yes my grandfather, plunged the WHOLE world into war because of his greed with the Silmarils. I want to be better. (After all we wee the Doors of Durin as a work between elves and Dwarves - I realize this is off from a lot of people but I feel like that would have helped the whole Elrond is dealing with a man that literally has so much history with his past... and is the reason his mother had to flee and leave him and his brother behind. LIke.... MORE tension here would have been good.

I am pretty sure I guessed that Sword was Saurons back when those posters came out but too lazy to look. I don't know the purpose of that but it's possible Theo could become a king in the future or at least a tribal leader spurned to greatness because of the sword.

The orcs in this one - I liked it also loved the animal skull helmet, felt it was perhaps a little 'clean' for an orc I feel like it would have had at the very least greasy staining. Loved the creepy wasn't sure on the whole half mole finger thing (I'll admit I thought the claw thing was possibly from a warg? Those warg things are fantastically creepy compared to the LOTR ones. I approve of this visual change. The orginals felt like pug nosed hyenas crossed with a bison to get that back hump)

Galadriel and the whole ship thing. That is just... weird the armor stripping the standing up right the entire time... It just felt off especially without Celeborn involved at all. Whole things was stupid. Did enjoy the sea dragon and the raft (the whole elf thing seemed weird and I'm with the Halbrand or whatever his name is not trusting Galadriel and her seperated from her ship. That was on point because that portion was stupid. Halbrand for mayor of calling out stupid things regarding Galadriel.

The stranger - I'm gonna argue and say it wasn't who you thought Frost, I'm gonna say it was one of the blues that they are that far south. And I say this because the Harfoots don't recognize the stars never seen them I feel like his journey is going south, it's possible the other landed closer to the South already.

Black milk cow.... yeah no farmer would not check the cows udders and know that nonsense was happening. That is just... the second that happened it wouldn't be we need proof because Bronwyn says we need to head out... it was k pack your stuff lets go especially if they are farmers. No farmers in their right minds would stay where there cow gets sick like that from just being around something.



ALSO the whole alchemists thing. It bugs me. Elves are mentioned to be healers multiple times by using herbs. It just... NO making pretty statues for people to look at doesn't heal them For Measse's sake we have elves cutting off and cauterizing hands in the first age. Tell me about how a bleeding statue is going to keep whatisface from bleeding out. Suddenly elves can regrow limbs because they look at a pretty sculpture. Uh huh.

I liked Episode 2 better than Episode 1, and it all comes down to Khazad-dum. Khazad-dum was truly phenomenal not only visually, but getting a good look on the creater's vision of a vibrant dwarven society. It's something we didn't get in Lord of the Rings (although we only get Gimli's POV), but The Hobbit movies were disappointing and I didn't truly care about the dwarves except maybe Thorin, Balin, and Bofur. First, it's just nice to see dwarves with proper beards, but I also thought I got a good sense about Khazad-dum life just in 1 episode.

As much as I didn't like the dynamic between Galadriel-Elrond-Gil-galad, I love the dynamic between Celebrimbor-Elrond-Durin IV and Disa. Durin being hurt over Elrond not coming to the wedding or being in contact with him for 20 years, could have been silly, but I think Durin did excellent delivering why that was upsetting for someone who is supposed to be "his" friend. It's a nice way to show the difference of 20 years to a mortal (even though dwarves live longer compared to men) and 20 years to an immortal. And I'm interested to see where the show goes with this cliffhanger at the end between Durin III and Durin IV. Plus, Elrond trying to rebuild a friendship with the dwarves of Khazad-dum.

I still don't care for Galadriel. I mean she's thinking she's just going to swim hundreds of miles of ocean and then she's stuck on a plank of wood with Halbrand. It's all rather too ridiculous to be convincing. Hopefully, it gets better and becomes more believable. Even in a fantasy world I'm having trouble trying to make sense of Galadriel being "adrift."

Metatron Omega: 3) Is Bronwyn's kid supposed to be a future Nazgûl? Khamul if I'm correct that they're all Easterlings? Feels a bit odd, since they were supposed to be kings and such, but I might be wrong so I'll reserve judgement until then

Possibly? In his character profile it just says something about Theo being tempted by powerful, evil forces...which I'm assuming has to be through this evil looking sword. But don't know where they're going with his arc yet.

Rivvy's Live Commentary:

Stop, 2:48:

Beautiful opening credits sequence. It reminds me of an ancient Daoist view on the world (pre-fireballs from fingers and levitation). I can make a Daoist interpretation of this akin to water bending in the form of a myriad different shapes and symbols, collapsing at times like a sand castle, changing at others, but still in essence water. The use of sand is appropo for is that not what most rings are made out of? Particles of the Earth?

Stop, 10:03

I would loooove this series if it was just about the Harfoots and their perspective on the Second Age. A couple things to note here.

If this were a Chinese wheelbarrow, then this comedic scene would not have worked because those wheelbarrows you can pretty much push with hand and not feel a thing, confirming in my mind that that invention has not been invented yet when the ancestors of the Harfoots were in the far east.

As of now, I strongly believe that the Stranger is none other than Olorin, aka Mithrandir, aka Gandalf. The whole flames thing, like Flame of Anor, Servant of the Secret Fire. The whole dialogue that is reminiscent of Gandalf's conversation with Frodo in Moria in the dark? The beard? In the movies when Gandalf was naked when he was reborn as Gandalf the White in Two Towers? All of this parallels to Gandalf. We'll see if it's anyone different. I will reserve judgement on the canonicity of this if this is the case because the Harfoot writing is very compelling and has my attention.

Now if I were writing this, and I had the rights to... all of Tolkien's writing, I would have this Stranger to be one of the Blue Wizards. The one called "East-Helper," Rómestámo, Then spawn off the storyline of how he goes to the East and greatly disrupts Sauron's work so that Gil-Galad and Elendil would not be overwhelmed by the Easterlings, not repeating the history of the Nirnaeth.

Stop 12:56

Feanor! Silmarils! And they choose not to tie Finrod's death towards the Beren and Luthien Tale which was in Fellowship of teh Ring! Can we have some consistency and logic here on what to keep in and what to alter?

The Crying Rice known as Melkor (Mikule in Chinese means 'Crying Rice,' a pejorative name that I'm actually going to give him in my fiction writing that takes place in the uttermost east). I had to stop here because the image of Melkor crying is like... so tarnishing to his image, yet perfect for mockery of him. I needed to take a moment to gather myself from just imagining that. I actually love its inclusion in here.

Stop, 14:33

Celebrimbor cannot be much older (or perhaps younger because I'm forgetting my dates!) than Gil-Galad and Galadriel here, and yet he is older looking and wiser looking, and quite frankly sounds more mature than both. If I was writing this, the short hair would be significant since I would only have implied people related to Feanor having short hair (which includes Elrond), compared to the other elves like Gil-Galad who have long hair. I have a good first impression of Celebrimbor, hopefully it keeps up.

Stop, 20:49

Elrond references a line from Gimli in Fellowship of the Ring... another reference that supports my theory that the Stranger is Gandalf.

A continued good impression of Celebrimbor, this guy is different than what a viewer would expect, doesn't have animosity towards dwarves. Elrond is different too but... I would've thought that having one's distant relative being murdered by the dwarves or Beren slaughtering dwarves could have been referenced a little here ("My ancestors may not have had the best relationship with the dwarves").

Love the dwarves. Love khazad-dum. MORE MORE MORE MORIA.

Aule! Though... wouldn't they call Aule, Mahal? Which one is in the LOTR?

They walk across a bridge that reminds me of the Bridge of Khazad-dum... My problem with that is that's on the eastern end. So you're telling me that the Fellowship crossed a western bridge through Moria? I'll just have to assume that they're going through the halls that the fellowship did not go through. But the majesty would still be there if the bridge was much wider, like in the Battle for Middle Earth I Moria map, because I would associate a bridge like that as THE Bridge.

Stop, 21:35

"Do not call me a conjurer of cheap tricks!" is the image that comes to my mind here, as I ignore the Ring-verse chants that is poking more holes in my theory than swiss cheese. But still, does his hair not look... greyer?

One thing I remember is that an Ainur (and therefore Olorin, and Sauron by extension) singing is quite unpleasant to hear. As in AAAAAARRRGGGGGH GRAAAAAAAAAGH type of unpleasant. it's fitting more and more, gotta be Gandalf (ignore the Mordorian chants, Gandalf knows that language too in FOTR).

Stop, 22:46

You know what "I'm Nori" sounds like? Olorin. Many names did Gandalf have.

Stop, 24:28

Love this scene. Hopefully the answer to Nori's question is "4 others"

Stop, 26:07

Could somebody translate what the stranger wrote?

Stop, 32:23

Wyrms in the sea, unexpected but I like it. I felt sorry for the people on the raft, and I found their reactions to be completely understandable. I would have opted for the "knife" as an identifier that Galadriel was an elf, rather than the ears, which actually too closely resembles human ears.

Why does the guy on the raft give me Davos Seaworth vibes, @Moriel? It's a good thing

Stop, 37:30

I love the dwarves... why exactly don't dwarf-women have beards though? I ask because in the Two Towers movie, it is directly mentioned, so I feel there would be some sort of congruency from this series to that movie, since more people know about dwarf women having beards than Galadriel having siblings. Or even better (make it so that some dwarves don't have beards and some do, and reflect that across all dwarven society). That can be understandable, just like how us humans have hair in certain regions while others don't. Why strip an aspect from someone without giving them the choice on whether or not to keep it? Could be fixed rather easily by making dwarves have a choice.

...And this is another opportunity if I was writing to bring up hair contrast. I would have given the dwarves a lot more diversity on how short or long their hair or beards were in direct contrast to the elves. And have them literally bring it up at some point in reference towards this being on purpose due to past events like elves hunting dwarves for sport or mistreatment in royal deals.

Elrond is also half-human though and was a mortal being until Earendil and Elwing got rewarded, so shouldn't he have a better perspective on time? The whole missing one's friends celebration thing would be more fitting for Celebrimbor. It's good to bring up time relativity from elves to men, but should that not have been consistent in the first episode too? 76 years also feels like a blink-of-an-eye to an elf.

Stop, 39:12

Here's an alternative. Make it clear that the invitation was in paper. Given that elves mock much literature (e.g. history), Elrond could reference that directly that it may have been thrown away as rubbish before he could even see it. *ignore possibility of raven messaging*

Stop, 44:33

So is Celeborn dead or what? Have they even met yet? Because I feel like sending some sort of message towards a husband and a daughter would actually be the first thing I would think of if I was on a raft floating in the seas. This is the type of psyche I would expect from Galadriel if both Celeborn and Celebrian were slain.

I'm trying to concentrate on this good piece of dialogue (it's good) but my suspension of disbelief is kinda waning because of no mention of Celeborn or Celebrian.

Stop, 49:01

Tree? Or is that no tree but an... entwife?

Stop, 55:06

I'm going to assume that one of my crack predictions was fulfilled, albeit not due to cow's milk but nevertheless: the villagers listen to Bronwyn (that's her name).

It just feels so awkward wanting to ship Galadriel and Davos Seaworth.

Stop, 56:46

Remember that time when Gandalf caught a flying thing in Fellowship of the Ring, brought it near his mouth, spoke words to it, and then off it went?

Stop, 58:48

I recall a phrase "travelled towards the East, where the stars are strange." Which would actually be more in-line with the theory that that this is a Blue Wizard, probably the East-Helper. They were the ones that were specifically given the Galadriel mission to hunt down Sauron's hiding place in the East in the beginning of the third age. But at this point in time, their responsibility was to rouse the resisting tribes of men in the east, and they were successful. That would make more sense given the chronology. The dark undertones would then foreshadow the failure in all Istari with exception of Gandalf as it is implied that only Gandalf returns with his mission successful.

Stop, 1:00:02

Arkenrock? Silmarstone? It emits light.

Stop, 1:02:07
Cirdan or Celeborn? I would be happy if it were Celebrian.

Crack Predictions that came true: 1 out of 4 this episode (on technicality).



Overall Impressions:

7.5/10.... this was a good episode. When I give a 7.5 out of 10 on something one should take it as a compliment. Dwarves and Harfoots stole the show. The Stranger gives my lore mind a spin and I like this Stranger. I personally hope it is one of the Blue Wizards due to the dark undertones and not Gandalf (don't want to think about timeline for Gandalf).

So, I care about the Harfoots being hurt, the Khazad-dum dwarves being hurt, Elrond and Celebrimbor being hurt. Even the Southland men being hurt worried me. I love the Stranger. But the show has not convinced me why I should care about almost all of the Lindon elves. Heck, I felt more for the orc than any of the elves that were hit by the troll. Hopefully future episodes give me reasons why I should care about the Lindon elves aside from a military manpower standpoint.

Hopefully we hear Celebrian and Celeborn's opinion on Galadriel's dangerous adventures. Unless they don't exist yet.

About that cow - oh my, that is the worst case of mastitis I have ever seen BUT that is also the first thing a farmer would check for?????? pls massage that poor girl until she is milking clear thank you

The Orc: wow, prosthetics are so much more scary than CGI, no? He was too tall, but very threatening.

Khazad-dûm: beautiful, gorgeous, scenes right out of Alan Lee. But what is that shiny??? It can’t be The Necklace Of Great Dispute as the Nauglamir was lost at sea? Nice little note from Disa about not delving too greedily or too deep, due to the Balrog in the basement

Music: compelling!

The Stranger: one of the words he is saying I am sure is urë, or Fire, in Elvish. Not sure about the first word? Mana? (What) or Man- as In blessed, from Aman?? I guess we are meant to think he is Gandalf, but good lord why would you deliver your Istari by yeeting him??? My first thought when I saw the comet fall was “sure hope that’s not Earendil”, but given Elves and their usual lack of beards I don’t think so - not that it would be Glorfindel (again, why would you travel via Yeet???)

Other theories: it is Sauron?

Is Sauron currently bodiless, and possessing that sword? There is certainly a lot of ominous music accompanying it.

Given how dramatic this series has been in just two episodes, the Valar yeeting people through the heavens almost feels par for the course

Also I guess Galadriel and Gil-galad just forgot about the Ban from Valinor

They also seemed to just gloss over a light bit of genocide with "and we sailed across the sea" but it made me laugh so I will overlook it

Well if we go with the round earth thing and valinor being in space, then this would be a perfectly good inexpensive way to travel

On the subject of where is Celeborn? At least I would assume no one thought like I did, going back and forth thinking her 2nd in command was Celeborn. I mean their first scene in the Forodwaith I thought maybe this is Celeborn? And they're talking about returning home, no one wants to return home more than her. She listened, stopped, and turned around. Then in Utumno I thought, ok must not be Celeborn because he's like "no one's going to follow you." Then they're back on the ship and he's beckoning her to take his hand, so I started thinking I guess this is Celeborn? But then he's yeeted by the Valar so must not be.

@Boromir88 …for a fleeting moment I did and then I thought to myself, to marry Galadriel you have to be effective in saying “yes… though I don’t think,” and be subtle about disagreements. All I heard was open disagreement.

Hi

Just popping in to say that

1) I can't buy Not Hugo Weaving as Elrond, though I do like the rest of the cast.
2) The depiction of Khazad Dum was AMAZING. I was never really a dwarf person, and Jackson's depiction didn't WOW me, but this, THIS sold me. Those scenes were the highlight of episode two.
3) When I went to summer camp as a kid, you had to swim 25 laps in a lake to earn the right to kayak (basically they needed to make sure you could swim to shore if your kayak capsized). I may or may not have had flashbacks to this experience while watching the Galadriel swim scenes....
4) I think the mysterious stranger has got to be Gandalf.
5) I wish the costuming was better. I'm a big fan of historical and fantasy costuming, and with so much money being spent and such high production values otherwise, you'd think they could spend a little more time devoted to costuming detail - that's one thing the Jackson films did really, really well. To me that's the weakest point of the show so far.
6) I'd still like a Shire, Rohan, or Gondor scene to really *feel* like I'm in Middle Earth, but so far they've done a pretty good job IMO.

While I can't say that I'm 100% on board with the show, I don't hate it, and it's significantly better than I was expecting.

Ok! Work done for the day, so with luck I can do a single post for all these ongoing thoughts:

- Opening sequence for the first time: Gorgeous, imo. The movement of the sand is just really satisfying for me, and I like the various implications we might draw from the shapes. The winding of the darker sand in as the music shifts is just mwah. Seriously, it feels like one of the best ways Game of Thrones improved TV is by the swing towards this style of opening credits.

- Galadriel swimming. Real dark in this sequence, good contrast ofc to her big light-bloom as she almost went to Valinor. Honestly same re: meteor man in flame-pit. Much darker / more shadowed start to the episode.

- Nori slipping down into the crater is good old fashioned Hobbit humor, followed by "she's making that face not that face..."
- "There's a giant in there!!!!!!"
- I commented last time that I was 15000000% sure that the stone + darkness quote being mashed up with the meteor falling meant the Man was a villain, but his little waking up scene felt... different. Hmm. Color me... uncertain. Maybe a wizard?
- Sadoc's dialogue with his omen-ladies is always great tbh. Definitely still not thrilled with the accents but,
- "He could have landed anywhere but he landed here" and "I was supposed to find him [...] I can't walk away from that until I know he's safe." both feel like good taps to the importance of Providence in the Legendarium — relieving after the PJ Hobbit's "We Make Our Own Luck!"

- I like Bronwyn and Arondir a lot more than I expected to, I have to say. Cruz Cordova has a really solid gravitas.

- Eregion! Feanor's Hammer! Silmarils! Wow! Wish they didn't feel the need to explain those references but rather to leave them — but also loving Elrond and Celebrimbor's discussion here: Charles Edwards is also more compelling than I expected, and Elrond's continuing naïveté is really fun (however book-inaccurate it might be).
- The fact that Celebrimbor is building the Tham Mirdain (rather than skipping directly to the Rings) is cool imo.

- OK Khazad-dum, here we go. I've been waiting for this for weeks.
- Mountains look great. Rivers running down the side look great.
- Celebrimbor geeking over the dwarf-craft is right imo. And Edwards continues to grow on me.
- Dwarf-door very cool. Grunting dwarf-voice less cool, but I didn't expect much more. Also: is that the Hammer of Moria alone on the door? Interesting to see the symbol without the later door's implication of friendship with the elves.
- Love the full-faced dwarf-helms.
- MORIA. YOOO.
- YOOO.
- YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
- The mirrors!! The waterways! The green things underground! My heart is fluttering. And the score is tremendous here, too.
- Identifiably female dwarves and the two living Durins both feel like necessary concessions to adaption, I'll say. They don't bother me much.
- Although the "dwarven endurance test" does feel a little comical, which is not where I'd hoped we'd start with them.

- Back to the Harfoots: the scores are already so evocative for me, which is really interesting. I was wondering how it would be to adapt to a new musical theming, since the LoTR films are such classics.
- Meteor Man / The Stranger's continued confusion is increasingly giving me lost wizard vibes as we enter into his first fully-conscious scene. The loss of memory especially is reminiscent of Gandalf's confusion over his own history when he returns in TT. So putting that bet down now: wizard feels right.
-- In fact as a second note, maybe that's what I'm picking up on here: Frodo's comment in the Pony: feeling fair and looking foul, etc.
- Ouch, that (broken?) foot.
- Oh MY that broken foot.
- Sadoc, buddy, have literally any tact (I still love u Lenny don't worry).

- Wow so Galadriel is just gonna swim all the way back, huh. This was her big plan? (Its clear that's not gonna happen, for the record, but still funny).
- the WORM?
- I will say this whole lost mariners sequence is the kind of thing I'm excited to see them do — but once again the elf-racism just feels... idk. There are better ways to have conflict — even conflict between different ethnic groups — than this extremely surface-level phenotype focus.
- The sea monster looks great imo, and exactly weird in the way I think Tolkien would have imagined a sea monster. I think it's also interesting to get a closer look at the dangers of seafaring in Middle-earth — especially remembering that all those dangers are, to greater or lesser extent, the defenses of the Undying Land and not the works of Morgoth.

- Yeah after loving the initial KD shots I have to say the rock-breaking contest is just utterly uncompelling for me. I don't dislike it innately, but it feels like its tapping in on that very comedic image of dwarves which we see in the PJ films. Its fine — just give it more respect if you're going to give it at all.
- "Our secrets are our own" is solid — and, honestly I like the reveal of the reasons for Durin's anger. I do hope they continue to play up the raw tension that exists between people who experience the world very differently — rather than continuing to fall back on "pointy-ears" or w/e.
- "One apology to Disa and you're off" ok nevermind they've got me back in. I love Disa. I love this stupid scene. This is the kind of comedy I think fits Tolkiens world, rather than the brawling and chanting stuff from earlier. This is dwarven Farmer Maggot and I'm here for it.
- Durin makin' some points tho. Elrond is here to secure a labor force.
- The tree is nice, especially to let it be a symbolic mirror without feeling like they need to make it go all the way back to Valinor, etc.
- Elrond is a little shire and I love him.

- Seriously Galadriel and Halbrand adrift is really nice. I don't know why but this kind of lost at sea sequence slots really nicely into Tolkien's world, even though we don't see it often.
- Also nice to get a glimpse of the separations of Free Peoples from somebody "regular." IMO one of the weaknesses of the books is that we basically only see things through the eyes of Elf-friends, so Halbrand is fairly interesting. Reminds me a bit of Eomer's thoughts on Galadriel.
- "Since the first sunrise bloodied the sky" solid reminder of Tolkien's thoughts on the sun as second-best.
- I said this in the ep. 1 thread but I do think Galadriel's pride is really compelling. She's definitely one of the characters I anticipate changing the most as the seasons progress (though seeing Elrond get a little more somber will also be interesting).

- "Having them gone is a relief, for most of us anyhow." once again not thrilled with the tension between elves and humans being simply because they are elves and humans. Give us the tyranny of Gil-galad! That's compelling! Seriously! Especially since we're already seeing him flawed in other ways.
- Theo needs to chill (reaffirming my guess that he's going to fall HARD).
- Cruz Cordova has the energy of an OC and I love him for it. The sobriety he brings to the role has already drawn me in. His sequences in the cave feel a lot like... almost a filmed version of Aragorn's hunt for Gollum (complete with appropriately few words).
- The looming assault on Bronwyn and Theo's village (accompanied by our first... orc, I guess? Those digging claws are nasty) feels perfect. Really reminds you of the bits you don't always get in the film adaptions — Tolkien's stories about raided crofts in Rohan or the occupation of Hithlum.
- I'm really glad one singular (again, I'm assuming) orc is being given the screentime it deserves. Really amps up the fear of it — although I've mentioned in other places that I'm not thrilled with orcs on a whole (even in Tolkien's works themselves) they're certainly doing what Tolkien was doing pretty well.

- The shots of Galadriel sinking, and Halbrand rescuing her, lit by the lightning through the water are gorgeous. Whether the show ends up being trash or not, at least we'll be able to say it was real pretty.

- I'm really interested in the Stranger, more so than I expected to be. I'm leaning more and more towards his being Gandalf (or maybe Radagast?) especially following this lantern scene and the whispering to the fireflies. I think it's still possible they're luring us in and he's going to wind up evil... but I don't know, the searching for the stars thing seems especially benign.
- Well, actually -- just got to the "fireflies are all dying" bit, which colors things differently. I really don't know.

- The secret that's soured the relationship between the elves and dwarves has to be... mithril, right? Or mithril-related? Still, I'd love to get a better sense of that.

- Really interested to see where Theo ends up. My guess remains: not anywhere good.

- That's a big ship there. Who could be aboard?

Final thoughts: generally positive. Definitely not thrilled with some of the changes (if Galadriel and Halbrand have a romance of any kind I am going to be real frustrated) but generally working to think about this whole endeavor as a different, slightly inconsistent myth in the same textual tradition. And for now I'm content with that.

Responding to some other people's thoughts... seems like lots of people are leaning wizardly for the Stranger, which I think is supported by these episodes. If that's not the case, they're definitely trying to sell us on it being the case so they can do a reveal swap later.

Also yes @Metatron Omega I do think we're going to see Theo get nazgul-fied or at the very least villain-ified. The sword starting to form is an obvious big one, but especially from a narrative perspective we don't really have a character in a position to get tempted by absolute evil in that way, yet, and I think Theo is a good candidate for it. I'd still love to know whether we're supposed to be reading into names or not... Theo and Bronwyn, hmm hmm hmm. If we're meant to see something in it, I'm not sure how to read our welsh-named lass, but both the germanic and greek origins for Theo ("folk" and "god" respectively) are interesting. But I suspect some of the names have been chosen aesthetically and little more (cough, NORI cough).

He's drawing constellations now. It's the Man in the Moon.

@Rivvy Elf’s theory that “I’m Nori” gets heard as “Olorin”??

Calling it that the ship Galadriel meets at the end of the riddle is from Numenor

Also

Gil-galad: hey Galadriel you should go back to Valinor

Galadriel: but I’m literally banned after the Kinslaying

Galadriel: also why doesn’t this ship have any seats

Gil-galad: look it’ll be fine

Gil-galad: I’m thinking you just stand up the whole way there like, perfectly still

Gil-galad: but then I’ll have some handmaidens dis-arm you and then you’ll have CHOIR ROBES underneath and you start SINGING

Gil-galad: it’s gonna be GREAT

Galadriel: can’t I have a manservant instead of a handmaiden

Gil-galad: NO it’s handmaidens only and they’re all gonna have these aesthetic veils

I am not a series watcher, but it's Tolkien, so I had to check it out.

What did those travellers have on their backs?? I was afraid at first that they would have a cart pulled by small creatures (not rabbits, maybe mice?)

Everything about Khazad-dûm was gorgeous and grand. Seeing it so functional with the water and the greenery gave me shivers. It looked like they were growing food which is funny (but also unique) as I was always under the impression that they traded or worked for food supplies and never bothered to grow their own. Why can they not put beards on dwarven females???

What a magical touch with the Harfoots. All the scenes were surreal and enjoyable. That was well done. I wonder what the hobbits of the Third Age would have thought of eating snails?

The Istari (Wizards) arrived in Middle-earth in the Third Age. Except for two who came sometime in the Second Age, according to HoME vol 12. I am hoping it's East-help, as Rivvy suggested. It would be interesting to have a storyline based on this character.

What is with Elrond's hair? The whole eleven scenes are too off for my liking. Funny how the leaders (kings) always seem so severe.

And then you got the dirty Easterners. Seems realistic enough. Though, I thought the rings were responsible for the downfall of the nine (the Black Easterling). Poor Leo, finding that thing.

And yes, I saw trees walking. And I wonder if the orcs only grunted in the second age?

So far, I really enjoyed the show. Everything looked really beautiful. It was entertaining. I agree with some others that the meteors seem like the Istari coming to Middle Earth.

Also, (sorry for my ignorance on lore) but could anyone explain to me what the major differences are so far between the show and canon?

Drifa wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:52 pm I am not a series watcher, but it's Tolkien, so I had to check it out.

What did those travellers have on their backs?? I was afraid at first that they would have a cart pulled by small creatures (not rabbits, maybe mice?)

Moose antlers would be my guess... they were called hunters so it would make sense if they were packing out antlers to somewhere in an attempt to lure big moose out duringnh7ntig season which is generally done right before fall which seems to be where we are season wise with the leaves and berries and other such hints

Melahny_oftheWoods wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 8:49 pm Also, (sorry for my ignorance on lore) but could anyone explain to me what the major differences are so far between the show and canon?

Oh boy, that would take quite a bit of time. There is so little written on the Second Age, and the period the series is covering, that there is a lot of liberties and inventions being done. Also, they didn't have access to The Silmarillion rights, except on a case-by-case basis, so they are constrained by what they have the rights to depict.

Some of the main ones being (and why everyone is asking about Celeborn)...at the latest Galadriel should be married to Celeborn by early 2nd Age. I'm not sure when Elrond and Celebrian were married, but that's why the scenes between Elrond and Galadriel are kind of creepy. Celebrian is Galadriel's and Celeborn's daughter, making Galadriel Elrond's mother-in-law (in the canon). If the series wants to go on and show how Elrond and Galadriel forged a friendship of 2 powerful elves who were instrumental in the defeat of Sauron, that would be interesting. But if it becomes some sort of weird courtship Elrond tries and GoT Daenerys-Jorah friend zone tension, that will be very off putting. I'm not expecting an accurate (to the canon) Tolkien story, but to go that route with Elrond and Galadriel's relationship would probably turn me away from the show.

In fact Galadriel's entire story in the first 2 episodes is invention. She was never a commander/leader of armies. Her temperament is I think fairly close to her youth. Which I think the goal of the series is to show how she grows from her youth (when she was stubborn, prideful, independent) to the Galadriel we are most familiar with in Lord of the Rings. However, with the compressed timeline they are undertaking (and no Celeborn) it seems like her entire time in Doriath just never existed according the series' timeline. Maybe it will get into that, but also maybe they just don't have access to that part of Galadriel's story, because I can't recall if the Lord of the Rings mentions her time spent in Doriath, under the tutelage of Melian.

The proto-hobbits (Harfoots) shouldn't be around at this time. However, not all inventions are a bad thing or should be pre-judged as being terrible. They are one of the highlights of the show so far. The way they showed the hobbits' capabilities of going unnoticed, blending in with their environment to avoid the eyes of Big Folk was creative and fun. It feels like hobbit community, even though canonically they shouldn't be around at this time.

For some odd reason they've given the impression that Gil-galad has the authority to lift the ban of the exiles and "gift" them with returning to Valinor.

The entire Southlands plot and characters, with the elven occupation post-war is an invention, but I'm interested in where the series goes with it.

The list is much much longer, but I already wasn't expecting an accurate adaptation. The dwarves, Harfoots, Arondir/Bronwyn are interesting enough for me, to keep watching. Combine that with the stunning visuals, which I was expecting to be good, but feel it's only fair to point out I'm not disappointed.

Uh I thought the whispering to the fireflies, like with the frigging moth gives away who it is?? Or am I missing something here?? And that it was the Harfoots finding him, that's why he has such great fondness for them? Landing in a meteorite, come on.. seriously?

Dwarven kingdom was all I liked about this episode. The arguing on the raft with the other shipwrecked and later just the dude. Geez, it was painful. Just tell her where you are from! The dude I linked to who review episode one will likely express it way better than me and with a lot more handwaving :P

I loved the whispering to the fireflies, made me question whether or not he might be Radagast though all of them dying like that makes me wonder if he's not something darker. I find nothing wrong with the Harfoots finding him, I got Frodo and Sam vibes from Nori and Penny anyways so I'd like to see where that journey takes them. The meteorite was damn cool if you ask me. Seems like a dangerous but exciting way to travel if you're an semi-angelic being.

I might be alone in this but I will say it anyway, perhaps we leave angry nerdbro YouTubers to their own devices and let them cultivate a following through their own comment section? I feel like we have enough people here to debate, discuss, theorycraft, and complain with without bringing in someone else. Articles and such are one thing but hour long YouTube rants seem unnecessary.

I agree with you, as I do on most things, @Metatron Omega. Of course, if they would like to join the plaza and join our wonderful discussions, bringing along some of their followers, so long as they don't mess up the place, sure. We have a link to where we advertise outside works if I remember correctly. Taethowen, Thalionwen, etc.

I also had a moment thinking Radagast... then dead fireflies and no extended grieving for them made me think otherwise.

I am not trying to cultivate a following for him. He expressed all the reservations I had of the episode and instead of me typing all that out (which no one would likely read anyways) I chose to link to it, so people can either view it or ignore it. Apart from the bored statement, I 100% agreed with him. So does that make me an angry nerd? Cause I am not angry (nor was he, he was bored), nor even disappointed. I expected it to be shire and apart from the scenery, it is in my opinion.

Are you both saying you dont want any outsider's opinions? Cause you have enough with who is here? I certainly hope not, I hope we can be more inclusive than that, even if the opinion differs from your own.

Nope to all three questions, @Winddancer. I'm sorry if I offended you. It would be hypocritical of me to not desire outsider's opinions, after all.

I agree with Rivvy, I'm not saying you're an angry nerd, I'm suggesting he is but that is beside the point. I'm not saying I don't want "outsider" opinions, even if I don't agree with analysis or opinions I'm not going to dictate how people express themselves. I'm not saying we have enough people here, I want an influx of people, when I said we have enough people, I meant there are people here on the site we can talk with rather than someone who isn't a part of this site.

What I am saying, and I will be clear so there is no room to see implications, is this: bringing in YouTube videos takes away from the conversation, as you can already see it doing with this side conversation we are having, about the episodes themselves. They're a distraction and I feel they aren't going to bring anything to the table debate/discussion/squee-wise. We start to debate the video and its content rather than the content of the series, which is the point of these threads that I'm running.

Going back to the discussion on the young boy. I also believe that he will become one of the Nine. More specifically, one of the 6 non-Numenorean Lords that composed the nine nazgul. The process has taken place already, given that I don't think that blood/poison transfusion thing is healthy when touching a broken sword.

I guess we can agree to disagree then. To you it is an hour long rant, to me it is someone who took the time to go through scene by scene and explain why he disliked it. Rather than me writing it all down word for word, I chose to link to it as then people had an option to view it or not and also because I did not want to be perceived as an angry ranter. I am fine with people loving the numerous parts that simply does not make sense, like why the wolf never attacked, or why the harfoots were so dirty, why the story of the rock that didnt float was so inane, the bad writing and why Galadriel was SO angry.

I dont expect anyone to have to defend why they like it (or dislike it), good for you if you liked it.

But I am not here to derail your thread and since it is your thread, I wont post anymore links and will remove the one I posted.

Rivvy Elf wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:41 am Going back to the discussion on the young boy. I also believe that he will become one of the Nine. More specifically, one of the 6 non-Numenorean Lords that composed the nine nazgul. The process has taken place already, given that I don't think that blood/poison transfusion thing is healthy when touching a broken sword.

Getting back to things, I think you're right. Narratively speaking it makes sense. The conversation between the watchwarden and Arondir plants a foreshadowing seed about the evil lying in the hearts of these people and Theo's transmogrification is going to be the culmination of mistrust and eventual violence.

It's too bad Narsil didn't have such a property so that it could have reformed when Sean Bean cut himself (sorry needed to be facetious there)

...I was so tempted to point that Narsil joke too too, haha

Sean Bean could have turned into Richard Sharpe and thus immune to death of any kind

@Boromir88 Thank you for mentioning the main differences! I understand there must be a lot of little things. I did wonder why they haven't shown Galadriel's husband Celeborn, and I hope they do show him at some point. While watching I was skeptical about the canon accuracy of Galadriel's story. I'd never heard of her being a commander in an army or anything.

I did find it weird there was no mention of the Kinslaying or all the wars the elves fought against each other... and like you said, Gil-galad shouldn't have the power to lift the exile. It's like they're glossing over all the bloody history of the elves... Trying to make them seem more perfect than they are, I suppose?

So the Southerlanders like Theo and his mom aren't supposed to be the Easterlings?

***

If Theo does become one of the Nine, that will be sad. He seems like such a sweet, heroic boy at the moment (fighting the orc with his mother). They made a great team in that scene! It seems that Theo is Arondir's son, and that makes things... interesting... a half-elven Nazgul?

I feel like what is really missing is just how ruthless and brutal and cunning the Noldor are supposed to be. I know it's not the first age but I still feel like Galadriel and Gil-Galad and Elrond and Celebrimbor and the elves in Lindon must have been FEELING THEMSELVES a little bit more than they are in the show, where they really just come off like puritans, or just kinda zonked out. They are supposed to be haughty. They are supposed to be a bit arrogant and cunning. These are elves who come from families that committed kinslayings and 1v1'ed Balrogs and basically were driven mad for centuries by a bunch of jewels. So far there's nothing really *Noldor* about them-- heck there's not really even that much that is *elvish* about them, they just kind of come off like normal humans.

Like, in Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring, when Galadriel turns dark and freaks out on Frodo, it's partially because she's imagining herself ruling the world with the ring, but also partially recalling what she used to be like-- a powerful queen, a destroyer, a ruler of the world descended from a family driven mad. She's tempted by the thought of "going back to the old me", i.e. rejecting her peaceful 3rd Age acceptance of diminishing and returning to a more ambitious and powerful time. I thought maybe this show would capture some of that power and drive among the elves of the second age, but I've been pretty let down in that regard.

I dunno, I just feel like the characters are pretty poorly written in general.

Well, @Winddancer, I hope you continue watching the series, because I like reading opinions vastly different than my own. I have a few friends who have said the same thing (series was dull and they're bored). It would be unfair to expect anyone that annoyed with the series to continue putting themselves through something that's genuinely a waste of time.

My dad will watch a movie, and always points out "he should be out of bullets," or "that car shouldn't be drive-able anymore." Where I'm always thinking...it's a movie, it's fiction, you have to suspend reality and just go with it. That's why I'm watching it. So, things that don't make sense to me I laugh about most of the time (The Hobbit Legolas 101 different ways to kill an orc did annoy me, but that's because every time he was on screen he was hanging off bats, running up falling rocks, decapitating battalions of orcs). Like Galadriel jumping off a boat in the middle of the ocean. She's seriously not going to swim her way back right? Oh well, I guess that's her plan as she turns around and swims away. Or an orc digging directly underneath people's floorboards, what the fredegar bolger is that orc thinking? It's so impractical and nonsensical. I'm assuming the orc is coming from Hordern, which Arondir said was a full day's journey on foot. So is this orc just tunneling from there and why is he doing it like literally inches below people's floorboards? It's just so impractical when a sneak attack raid while folks are sleeping would get the job done and quicker. However the orc prosthetics were very well made and the brawl scene there with the orc vs Bronwyn and Theo was good camera work and I felt the orc was a real threat. So, I chuckle at the stupidity of an orc randomly digging under homes, but go with it because the entire sequence was thrilling and well done to me. And don't take this as saying everyone has to watch movies/shows in the same way I do. I like watching movies with my dad and he's the complete opposite.

Regarding Galadriel, I honestly think we are supposed to find her questionable. I don't think we're supposed to hate her, but I don't get the criticism that "she's Galadriel. She's awesome and perfect." Ok she took down a troll all by herself while her company was useless (well her 2nd in command let her run up his sword and leap attack). I don't get that criticism, because she definitely didn't seem like a good military commander. She is too independent, too stubborn, she wasn't working well with her unit. And I think that was the purpose, she is not the leader she is in Lorien at this time, she's alone and doesn't work together with anyone. Getting my head around the timeline compression is jarring when it comes to Galadriel. I mean the fact that Celebrimbor looks old for an elf and Galadriel should be roughly the same age he is. She looks to be even younger than Elrond, but perhaps the same age, when she's his mother-in-law and Gil-galad's aunt. But it's why I didn't have a problem with the complaints about Aragorn's indecisiveness and "weakness" in the films. Your main characters have to show growth and Peter Jackson did not have the luxury of diving into Aragorn's backstory before the events of the film. And I would expect the show to do the same with Galadriel. I don't get the complaints she is a "perfect and just does everything awesomely" from people, because she's not. Her command decisions and individuality when she's supposed to be a leader are seriously flawed. She's not the leader she is in Lorien, and that's fine, because if the series plans to show how she becomes that, it's what you have to do in the different medium. Your main characters have to grow and change. My problem with it is she has the dullest story line at the moment. I don't get why they couldn't just have her reject Gil-galad and do her own thing, like why stand on a boat for days (was it hours? Minutes? what?)?

Celebrimbor is the only canon character I'm interested in at the moment. I loved his scenes and there was immediately substance to him in 1 scene. I think Charles Edwards has delivered the best performance in the series so far. His admiration for dwarven craftsmanship and giddiness to want to see them work. He clearly gets across his motivations and ambitions to bring "beauty" to the world through his craft. It's not that Robert Aramay is doing poorly, and I find it unfair to criticize him because he's not Hugo Weaving. Elrond's a bit off at the moment, I will say I'm getting a feeling from the series, that Elrond is a good strategist, thinks about the bigger picture. I also liked the speech writing scene, because when I watch Fellowship of the Ring at how proud Elrond looks when he comes up with "And you shall be the Fellowship of the Ring!" Weaving had such a "yeah I came up with the naming myself" grin. The speech writing scene reminded me of that moment in the movies.

@Androthelm - "Our secrets are our own" is solid — and, honestly I like the reveal of the reasons for Durin's anger. I do hope they continue to play up the raw tension that exists between people who experience the world very differently — rather than continuing to fall back on "pointy-ears" or w/e.

Yes! This is what I mean when I say I hope the show's diversity has a purpose, that they do something with it deeper than the physical differences. You know in the FOTR movie the prologue where Galadriel says "and above all else they desired power" (talking about the men who became Ringwraiths). That's not the case with the Ringwraiths. A theme in Tolkien to me is immortality vs death. Celebrimbor's and the Elve's flaw of creating rings from a desire of preserving elven beauty, stopping the decay of time leads to their tragedies. It is the Downfall of Numenor, of Men to envy and pursue Elven immortality. Based on comments by the showrunners prior to the series release, I seriously think their central theme will be about these differences.

@Boromir88 yes! I can't remember who said it, but I have a distinct memory of a Tolkien scholar of some stripe (maybe Corey Olsen?) saying once that you can (through a certain lens, frame of reference, etc) look at Tolkien's works as fundamentally stemming from the question of what the world would look like if there were not one but two sentient species on the earth. I don't know that that's the end-all be-all of Tolkien lenses, but I do think it's interesting.

As for your other comments: I agree on the general approach to how we can get the best out of our experience. This is partially a sentiment which develops from my personal / academic interests, but I really do think when it comes to adaptions -- particularly adaptions of beloved worlds like Middle-earth -- we're better off to examine them as much as texts as we're able to, rather than looking for the "truth" of the subcreative world, where we're likely to be disappointed.

Galadriel: I've been saying from the start that I think they are going to compress a lot more than people are anticipating, and change timelines generally. Again... I don't know that this is a huge problem, but it's something that we should be prepared for. That being said... I definitely don't get the critique of Galadriel as "too perfect" here, especially because I really think they're emphasizing that her willfullness is a flaw that's impairing her relationships with other people / ability to go happily into the west (again, we have to look at their treatment of what "going west" means within the bounds of this story, rather than trying to match it to Tolkien's).

Celebrimbor was a surprise hit for me. I don't know that we've gotten an on-screen character who hits the note of craftsman so well, especially since dwarves tend to get roped in as "greedy" rather than "loving their works." Celebrimbor feels very very good in that regard (and the Feanor chat was a ton of fun).

Fuin Elda wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 9:42 pm

Drifa wrote: ↑Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:52 pm I am not a series watcher, but it's Tolkien, so I had to check it out.

What did those travellers have on their backs?? I was afraid at first that they would have a cart pulled by small creatures (not rabbits, maybe mice?)

Moose antlers would be my guess... they were called hunters so it would make sense if they were packing out antlers to somewhere in an attempt to lure big moose out duringnh7ntig season which is generally done right before fall which seems to be where we are season wise with the leaves and berries and other such hints

Yes, I know. I was not expecting it and thought it would lead to some strange happening, like rabbits pulling sleds or dwarves riding boars.

Haha true enough I actually watched the show again and saw they looked like the were carrying part of a field dressed animal outside of what looked like hares on their belts.

Am glad it did not devolve into a radagast chase scene though

@Aeros I agree with you about the Elves. There's no mention or even hint at their savagery or their exile from Valinor. Anyone who only watches the films/show will think they are pure, flawless, and incorruptible. It's not really a fair portrayal! The only "flaw" or negative thing we've seen so far is Galadriel being stubborn and disobeying orders. And Elrond forgetting about his friend's wedding LOL. Not exactly showing their dark sides.

When I think of the elves I think of two terms: petty dwarves and kinslaying. I’m also reminded of my time in student government where even the most docile of people can turn absolutely cutthroat. I’ve been betrayed a few times by people I trusted. Now imagine how cutthroat they would get with actual tangible power and you have the elves of the first age

@Rivvy Elf very true.... with great power, comes great corruption. LOL Not to mention the immortality would cause a lot of tension between elves... they have to live in a community with many of the same people for thousands of years.

Androthelm wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 3:43 pm
Celebrimbor was a surprise hit for me. I don't know that we've gotten an on-screen character who hits the note of craftsman so well, especially since dwarves tend to get roped in as "greedy" rather than "loving their works." Celebrimbor feels very very good in that regard (and the Feanor chat was a ton of fun).

I have to disagree here, when I expressed my disappointment about how zonked out and puritan these elves are, I was mainly talking about Celebrimbor. He's the biggest let down of a character for me so far, maybe second to Gil Galad. Celebrimbor is a Feanorian! He very possibly took part in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde. He was there for the sack of Nargothrond and the fall of Gondolin. He should be the darkest and grimmest and most savage of all the elves that survived the War of Wrath. Instead he really comes off naive and clumsy and just... boring... to me I guess. As off-base as Shadow of Mordor was, I couldn't help but enjoy how they did Celebrimbor there, which I felt was a lot more fitting. The guy is eventually going to get tortured to death and hung on a pole as a flag, so he needs a personality that is going to be able to handle that, and spit back in Sauron's face.

I'm sorry I also just want the elves to have long hair, I know it's a reimagining but they just don't look right with their little bob cuts.

Regarding the hair complaints, I have some thoughts. It took me a hot minute to get used to them and I understand why the change feels jarring. However, after watching the first few episodes of House of the Dragon, I'm convinced that the film industry thinks there are only three types of styles for men with long hair. It's repeated over and over and over again with so little variation that it's gotten dull and distracting to me now (a man with quite long hair). Now I'm seeing the shorter hair styles of Rings of Power as a breath of fresh air, breaking stereotypes and subverting expectations.

Aeros wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 8:56 pm I have to disagree here, when I expressed my disappointment about how zonked out and puritan these elves are, I was mainly talking about Celebrimbor. He's the biggest let down of a character for me so far, maybe second to Gil Galad. Celebrimbor is a Feanorian! He very possibly took part in the Kinslaying of Alqualonde. He was there for the sack of Nargothrond and the fall of Gondolin. He should be the darkest and grimmest and most savage of all the elves that survived the War of Wrath. Instead he really comes off naive and clumsy and just... boring... to me I guess. As off-base as Shadow of Mordor was, I couldn't help but enjoy how they did Celebrimbor there, which I felt was a lot more fitting. The guy is eventually going to get tortured to death and hung on a pole as a flag, so he needs a personality that is going to be able to handle that, and spit back in Sauron's face.

I'm sorry I also just want the elves to have long hair, I know it's a reimagining but they just don't look right with their little bob cuts.

Hmm, not all Feanorians are of the like mind though. It's noted that Celebrimbor inherited his grandfathers skill of craftsmanship, but not his father's or grandfather's demeanor.

In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin, repudiated the deeds of his father, and remained in Nargothrond. (The Silmarillion: Of Beren and Luthien)

He's described in Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn as being "selfless and kind" and having more of a "dwarvish" obsession with his work. Which leads to a great friendship with the dwarves of Khazad-dum (and making the Doors of Durin; "Speak friend, and enter.") In the show when he talks about his people (Feanor and the Noldor) bringing war and death to Middle-earth, but he wants to bring beauty into it, crafts that would preserve the world "unchanged, unmarred" it sounds very close to Celebrimbor. Those were the powers of the 3 elven Rings, to preserve the elves way of life, to stop the decay of time. For as Men's envious pursuit of immortality is the cause of their downfall. It is the Elves' pursuit to make Middle-earth "unchanged, unmarred" that leads to their tragedies.

Boromir88 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:30 pm
Hmm, not all Feanorians are of the like mind though. It's noted that Celebrimbor inherited his grandfathers skill of craftsmanship, but not his father's or grandfather's demeanor.

In that time Celebrimbor the son of Curufin, repudiated the deeds of his father, and remained in Nargothrond. (The Silmarillion: Of Beren and Luthien)

He's described in Unfinished Tales: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn as being "selfless and kind" and having more of a "dwarvish" obsession with his work. Which leads to a great friendship with the dwarves of Khazad-dum (and making the Doors of Durin; "Speak friend, and enter.") In the show when he talks about his people (Feanor and the Noldor) bringing war and death to Middle-earth, but he wants to bring beauty into it, crafts that would preserve the world "unchanged, unmarred" it sounds very close to Celebrimbor. Those were the powers of the 3 elven Rings, to preserve the elves way of life, to stop the decay of time. For as Men's envious pursuit of immortality is the cause of their downfall. It is the Elves' pursuit to make Middle-earth "unchanged, unmarred" that leads to their tragedies.

Fair enough. But if he's supposed to be "dwarvish", he should just be a little grittier. He doesn't look like he's ever lifted a hammer or stepped in a forge in this show.

Aeros wrote: ↑Sun Sep 04, 2022 9:56 pm But if he's supposed to be "dwarvish", he should just be a little grittier.

See, I find this interesting because the "grittiness" of the dwarves on this show was actually part of my problem with them -- I mentioned this above, but it leans a little into that buffoonish cartoon-dwarf that really doesn't compel me. Anyway, I think Celebrimbor strikes me as a well-respected senior artisan in this portrayal, which I don't mind at all.

The dwarves have always been portrayed wrongly since The Hobbit, I think. They are warriors, craftsmen, and artists, proud and fearless.. I do agree with Androthelm; too buffoonish. Thank Mahal Khazad-dûm looked stunning.