Season One Finale. New alliances are forged.
The Rings Of Power Episode 8: Alloyed [SPOILERS]
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I said numerous times before ROP aired—hell, even before we knew it would be called ROP—that I thought the show could be good on its own merits, regardless of how much it changed from the books. Despite, or rather because of, my lingering purist tendencies, I tried to go out of my way to focus on things I enjoyed, to avoid solely being a grumpy purist about the show. The start of the mithril subplot in Episode 5 killed my motivation to be charitable and for the past few weeks I've complained about a lot of changes. Going into the season finale, though, I wanted to be more fair-minded again, so I decided to try to emulate some of my friends who said they enjoyed the show more after looking it as an Alternate Universe (AU) version of Middle-earth. Looking back over the season from this perspective makes me less grumpy about some alterations, but it doesn't make me like the show better. If anything, I'm disappointed they didn't change more.
To try to explain, let me quote something I said back in February, in response to numerous descriptions of the show as fanfiction:
I think the showrunners have demonstrated, through both the show and their comments outside it, that they do understand the original work, but I would like ROP better if its changes felt like they were in the service of some coherent artistic purpose. This is frequently the case in fanfiction, even if those purposes are weird, like remodeling human society and sexuality after bad wolf sociology. ROP, on the other hand, is clearly purposeful in wanting to establish a kind of quasi-continuity with the Peter Jackson films, and also to remind audiences of those films by incessantly hitting them over the head with quotes and other callbacks, but this makes the changes that were made far more frustrating. Being afraid to challenge the Jacksonian status quo too much leads ROP to repeatedly retreat from its most interesting ideas, forcing the question of what the point was in deviating from the text as much as they did.
I'm saltiest right now over the Galadriel/Sauron plotline. I actually really liked it through the first seven episodes! I wasn't sold on the Halbrand = Sauron theory at the start, but I nonetheless found Halbrand an engaging and interesting character. Once it became clear that he most likely was Sauron, I liked him even more, because he was clearly repentant. I'm a big fan of repentant!Sauron in the early–mid Second Age, but I honestly didn't think ROP would go in that direction. I'm pleased to have been wrong on that count. I definitely wouldn't have guessed that they'd spend the first season building sexual and romantic tension between Galadriel and Sauron, but I really enjoyed watching their bond grow. And then, once Galadriel begins to suspect the truth ... nothing. It's all over in less than an episode. Galadriel immediately mistrusted and hated Halbrand, and tried to kill him once he confessed. It would have gone down essentially the same if she had learned his identity on the raft, or right after arriving in Númenor.
I like to think this is not solely about me being too much of a shipper for my own good. People have talked for months about how characters must have arcs, and Galadriel has a long path to tread before she reaches the mental and emotional state she inhabited in Fellowship, when she narrowly rejected the temptation of the Ring. They were right. Yet here we are, only a fifth of the way through ROP, and Galadriel—who is still emotionally broken and borderline incompetent—just faced that same temptation, with some of the exact same wording, and rejected it easier than she did in Fellowship. (And this despite the deal being sweetened with the prospect of some sweet Sauron loving!
) So ... she did it? Congratulations. But I have to wonder what was the point of the previous seven episodes worth of this subplot, if those experiences didn't make Galadriel behave any differently when finally confronted with her arch-nemesis. Let me make a radical proposition: ROP would be better, and far more interesting, if Galadriel had said yes. Obviously, this would be a huge deviation from the books, but the show was already charting its own course by building a romantic subplot around Galadriel and Sauron in the first place. So go crazy with it! Have Galadriel truly struggle with temptation, and not come out on top of that struggle yet, since we're still early in the story. Let Sauron's repentance last a little longer. I'm not saying I think the show should have ended with Galadriel and Sauron as an immortal power couple ruling Middle-earth for—well, actually, that would be pretty much right up my alley, but I would've been fine with the power couple falling apart within a season or two and ending up on opposing sides of the war.
The Stranger's subplot is a similar case. I really liked his showdown with the Mystics. I loved him saying "I'm good" at the climactic moment, in an echo of Nori's words to him. And yet, it could have been so much more! The Stranger being Gandalf is fine, but consider if the Balrog fan theory had been correct, except the Stranger chose to be good after being exposed to the Harfoots' positive influence. The Stranger has been questioning his morality and whether it's okay for him to be around friends for most of the season. Now he has an answer, and it's ... yes. He's good. He's not a danger except insofar as he took a while to figure out how to control his powers. "I'm good" was not a choice, but simply a realization. I don't find this engaging as a character arc. On a scene by scene level, I enjoyed just about everything from the Stranger/Harfoot plotline this week—with the notable exception of Sadoc slowly bleeding out while a wizard with previously demonstrated healing powers stands there and doesn't even try to help—but I have to regret what we could have seen if the showrunners were bold enough to really go all in on making the show an AU. Gimme some Balrog redemption! (Also, in my ideal world this would have happened several episodes ago, with far less wheel-spinning as the Harfoots vacillated about whether they like the Stranger or not.)
While watching Episode 8, I grumbled a lot to myself about the treatment of Elvish fading. We got snippets of information about Elvish colonialism throughout the season, and according to Durin in Episode 5, Lindon was still actively sending out warriors to distant lands, possibly at an accelerating pace. This is evidently a civilization that still has a great deal of vitality left in it. Contra both the books and the dictionary definition of the word, ROP's version of fading is not a gradual process of decline, but something that happens abruptly, with a nation going from full flower to the prospect of total destruction in a matter of months. As a book fan, it drives me batty, and I've struggled more to stop being a grumpy purist about this than any other part of S1. I'm not sure there's any way the show could have played it that would be satisfying to me. On the other hand, Elvish expansionism and colonization does not elicit this reaction, even though it's also a substantial change. I would've enjoyed learning more about it! I think this could have improved the Southlands subplot, too. Let us see more about the interactions of Elves and Southlanders, particularly the descendants of the old ruling class, who were likely among the most oppressed by the Elvish guards. That would make the appearance of a claimant to the throne who is backed by an Elf far more interesting.
I could be here all night complaining about the Southlands, which didn't even appear in this episode, but I'll try to keep it short. As far as I can tell, the whole "King of the Southlands" plotline existed mainly to get Galadriel and Halbrand back to Middle-earth with an army. But in practice, it means Galadriel concluded a random stranger she met was a royal heir in exile because he had a necklace with a certain coat of arms on it, despite the line having gone extinct 1000 years ago. This is known to Elves who pay little attention to mortals, so it's presumably better known among actual Southlanders. (They have a folk tradition that the true King will return, but it's possible this is more of a "King asleep in mountain" type deal.) But the Southlanders acclaim Halbrand as King as soon as he shows up, though he reigns for all of, like, 30 minutes before getting critically injured in a volcanic eruption (though not so injured that he couldn't "ride without rest" for hundreds of miles). Then again, the Southlands appears to be only a handful of villages—all but one of which were destroyed by Orcs before Episode 1—whose two main political factions are led by the local innkeeper and the local herbalist. So it's probably not worth thinking about much.
So yeah, this was ROP. It was very pretty. It had great music. Much of the acting was excellent. There were scenes in most episodes, including many in Episode 8, that I really enjoyed, I just don't think they fit together in a particularly coherent way. The showrunners could have tried to be as faithful as possible given the constraints they were working under (which necessitated many changes), or they could have gone hog wild making an alternate version of Middle-earth, but they chose a middle path of making sometimes intriguing and sometimes baffling changes without following through on their full potential. I would have preferred either of the alternatives. I won't claim that taking this approach makes the show objectively bad, but as someone who came into this already passionate about the Second Age, I find it disappointing. Hopefully future seasons will iron out some of the kinks we saw in S1, but I don't expect they will change the fundamental approach. Nor would I expect them to—Amazon was never going to make extremely niche fangirls like me their target audience—but it's not like the show we got was the only possible way it could have been written to be accessible to newcomers. And no, constantly quoting the damn Jackson movies isn't necessary either!
To try to explain, let me quote something I said back in February, in response to numerous descriptions of the show as fanfiction:
As many critics of the project have pointed out, the paucity of Second Age material in the books means the series will effectively be officially licensed fanfiction. I see that as an opportunity! The best fanfiction AUs (Alternate Universes) diverge from their source material in artistically considered, deliberate ways, introducing new ideas while remaining in dialogue with the original. They display an obsession with detail that often eclipses that of fanfiction which hews closer to the original, in many cases because the authors really like some small element that wasn't elaborated on, and they use that as their basis to build new worlds of breathtaking depth and complexity. Some such fanfic authors love the original works, some actively dislike them, but the great ones all care. They're not making changes out of laziness, or pandering to expectations, or because they don't understand the original well enough to realize they're changing things.
I think the showrunners have demonstrated, through both the show and their comments outside it, that they do understand the original work, but I would like ROP better if its changes felt like they were in the service of some coherent artistic purpose. This is frequently the case in fanfiction, even if those purposes are weird, like remodeling human society and sexuality after bad wolf sociology. ROP, on the other hand, is clearly purposeful in wanting to establish a kind of quasi-continuity with the Peter Jackson films, and also to remind audiences of those films by incessantly hitting them over the head with quotes and other callbacks, but this makes the changes that were made far more frustrating. Being afraid to challenge the Jacksonian status quo too much leads ROP to repeatedly retreat from its most interesting ideas, forcing the question of what the point was in deviating from the text as much as they did.
I'm saltiest right now over the Galadriel/Sauron plotline. I actually really liked it through the first seven episodes! I wasn't sold on the Halbrand = Sauron theory at the start, but I nonetheless found Halbrand an engaging and interesting character. Once it became clear that he most likely was Sauron, I liked him even more, because he was clearly repentant. I'm a big fan of repentant!Sauron in the early–mid Second Age, but I honestly didn't think ROP would go in that direction. I'm pleased to have been wrong on that count. I definitely wouldn't have guessed that they'd spend the first season building sexual and romantic tension between Galadriel and Sauron, but I really enjoyed watching their bond grow. And then, once Galadriel begins to suspect the truth ... nothing. It's all over in less than an episode. Galadriel immediately mistrusted and hated Halbrand, and tried to kill him once he confessed. It would have gone down essentially the same if she had learned his identity on the raft, or right after arriving in Númenor.
I like to think this is not solely about me being too much of a shipper for my own good. People have talked for months about how characters must have arcs, and Galadriel has a long path to tread before she reaches the mental and emotional state she inhabited in Fellowship, when she narrowly rejected the temptation of the Ring. They were right. Yet here we are, only a fifth of the way through ROP, and Galadriel—who is still emotionally broken and borderline incompetent—just faced that same temptation, with some of the exact same wording, and rejected it easier than she did in Fellowship. (And this despite the deal being sweetened with the prospect of some sweet Sauron loving!
) So ... she did it? Congratulations. But I have to wonder what was the point of the previous seven episodes worth of this subplot, if those experiences didn't make Galadriel behave any differently when finally confronted with her arch-nemesis. Let me make a radical proposition: ROP would be better, and far more interesting, if Galadriel had said yes. Obviously, this would be a huge deviation from the books, but the show was already charting its own course by building a romantic subplot around Galadriel and Sauron in the first place. So go crazy with it! Have Galadriel truly struggle with temptation, and not come out on top of that struggle yet, since we're still early in the story. Let Sauron's repentance last a little longer. I'm not saying I think the show should have ended with Galadriel and Sauron as an immortal power couple ruling Middle-earth for—well, actually, that would be pretty much right up my alley, but I would've been fine with the power couple falling apart within a season or two and ending up on opposing sides of the war.The Stranger's subplot is a similar case. I really liked his showdown with the Mystics. I loved him saying "I'm good" at the climactic moment, in an echo of Nori's words to him. And yet, it could have been so much more! The Stranger being Gandalf is fine, but consider if the Balrog fan theory had been correct, except the Stranger chose to be good after being exposed to the Harfoots' positive influence. The Stranger has been questioning his morality and whether it's okay for him to be around friends for most of the season. Now he has an answer, and it's ... yes. He's good. He's not a danger except insofar as he took a while to figure out how to control his powers. "I'm good" was not a choice, but simply a realization. I don't find this engaging as a character arc. On a scene by scene level, I enjoyed just about everything from the Stranger/Harfoot plotline this week—with the notable exception of Sadoc slowly bleeding out while a wizard with previously demonstrated healing powers stands there and doesn't even try to help—but I have to regret what we could have seen if the showrunners were bold enough to really go all in on making the show an AU. Gimme some Balrog redemption! (Also, in my ideal world this would have happened several episodes ago, with far less wheel-spinning as the Harfoots vacillated about whether they like the Stranger or not.)
While watching Episode 8, I grumbled a lot to myself about the treatment of Elvish fading. We got snippets of information about Elvish colonialism throughout the season, and according to Durin in Episode 5, Lindon was still actively sending out warriors to distant lands, possibly at an accelerating pace. This is evidently a civilization that still has a great deal of vitality left in it. Contra both the books and the dictionary definition of the word, ROP's version of fading is not a gradual process of decline, but something that happens abruptly, with a nation going from full flower to the prospect of total destruction in a matter of months. As a book fan, it drives me batty, and I've struggled more to stop being a grumpy purist about this than any other part of S1. I'm not sure there's any way the show could have played it that would be satisfying to me. On the other hand, Elvish expansionism and colonization does not elicit this reaction, even though it's also a substantial change. I would've enjoyed learning more about it! I think this could have improved the Southlands subplot, too. Let us see more about the interactions of Elves and Southlanders, particularly the descendants of the old ruling class, who were likely among the most oppressed by the Elvish guards. That would make the appearance of a claimant to the throne who is backed by an Elf far more interesting.
I could be here all night complaining about the Southlands, which didn't even appear in this episode, but I'll try to keep it short. As far as I can tell, the whole "King of the Southlands" plotline existed mainly to get Galadriel and Halbrand back to Middle-earth with an army. But in practice, it means Galadriel concluded a random stranger she met was a royal heir in exile because he had a necklace with a certain coat of arms on it, despite the line having gone extinct 1000 years ago. This is known to Elves who pay little attention to mortals, so it's presumably better known among actual Southlanders. (They have a folk tradition that the true King will return, but it's possible this is more of a "King asleep in mountain" type deal.) But the Southlanders acclaim Halbrand as King as soon as he shows up, though he reigns for all of, like, 30 minutes before getting critically injured in a volcanic eruption (though not so injured that he couldn't "ride without rest" for hundreds of miles). Then again, the Southlands appears to be only a handful of villages—all but one of which were destroyed by Orcs before Episode 1—whose two main political factions are led by the local innkeeper and the local herbalist. So it's probably not worth thinking about much.
So yeah, this was ROP. It was very pretty. It had great music. Much of the acting was excellent. There were scenes in most episodes, including many in Episode 8, that I really enjoyed, I just don't think they fit together in a particularly coherent way. The showrunners could have tried to be as faithful as possible given the constraints they were working under (which necessitated many changes), or they could have gone hog wild making an alternate version of Middle-earth, but they chose a middle path of making sometimes intriguing and sometimes baffling changes without following through on their full potential. I would have preferred either of the alternatives. I won't claim that taking this approach makes the show objectively bad, but as someone who came into this already passionate about the Second Age, I find it disappointing. Hopefully future seasons will iron out some of the kinks we saw in S1, but I don't expect they will change the fundamental approach. Nor would I expect them to—Amazon was never going to make extremely niche fangirls like me their target audience—but it's not like the show we got was the only possible way it could have been written to be accessible to newcomers. And no, constantly quoting the damn Jackson movies isn't necessary either!
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Arien
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Eldy - an excellent dissection which contains many of my own feelings!
cave anserem
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Thank you for your kind words, @Silky Gooseness! It's always reassuring to know when my overlong effortposts are read. 
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Called it.
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A few further thoughts
- Why is Gil-Galad so mean? When 10 years is nothing to an elf, why does he grudge 3 weeks?
- why does Celebrimbor, famous smith, not ever consider things like alloys or gently working metal?
- what’s with the three witches
- Why is Gil-Galad so mean? When 10 years is nothing to an elf, why does he grudge 3 weeks?
- why does Celebrimbor, famous smith, not ever consider things like alloys or gently working metal?
- what’s with the three witches
cave anserem
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3 witches that become Nazgul! Female powah!
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You indeed were right @Winddancer, at least about Halbrand being Sauron. I'm not so sure yet about the Stranger being Gandalf, but based on how they seem to not want to break too far from PJ's movies (I agree with @Eldy Dunami and that's also my main source of disappointment), he probably is. I'm .holding out a fool's hope that maybe he ends up being Saruman who also traveled East and took an interest in hobbits. But that's a really crackpot theory, considering the stranger has directly quoted Gandalf from the films. I shouldn't hold out hope for the showrunners to go completely crazy though, because it just leaves me disappointed. 
A lot of my thoughts, I think are similar to Eldy's (other than the Harfoots, which I have really enjoyed being in the series, and sad that there will be no more Lenny Henry).
I must admit that was a satisfying end to a season finale. It's just nice to have some key characters revealed and seeing a general direction of where the showrunner's creation is heading. There are issues I have mostly with the pacing and writing overall in Season 1. I'm not sure if it will get better, but at least the finale paid off to leave me interested and anticipating Season 2. I can enjoy a slow burn, if done well, but the middle episodes felt more like a slog and unnecessary time filler more than actually progressing anywhere. Now watching the pay off, my interests are piqued again to imagine where future seasons will go.
So, I was expecting to hate it if Halbrand turned out to be Sauron. Now that I know he is, I actually don't hate it. Part of it might be I just wasn't interested in the Galadriel/Halbrand plot. After the previous episode, I was wrapping my head around Halbrand is probably going to be Sauron, so let's see how they pull this "reveal" off. I think both actors stepped up and into their roles in the finale that I'm ok with it. I agree with Eldy, I like a Sauron 2nd Age redemption fanfiction and glad they went that route with someone who was redeemed after Morgoth's defeat. They left open a potential that if Galadriel never brought Halbrand to Middle-earth, or even indeed if he was never brought to Eregion, perhaps events would have played out differently. I like the Halbrand is Sauron better than I thought I would, because of the Sauron 2nd Age "fair form" redemption after Morgoth's defeat is a good story. Disappointed they didn't go further with it, and it all concluded in 20 minutes. But I think Morfydd Clark really stepped into Galadriel's role this episode, and the problems with her character, was down to the script writing and pacing, which isn't the actress' fault.
It convinces me that the showrunners understand the source material and are inspired by the story they're adapting. The series is largely, and in a general sense, following the themes of goodness, hope, and friendship present in Tolkien's story. I still think Elrond's convo with Gil-galad about oath breaking was the single best writing and scene in Season 1I see it in their portrayal of the orcs, the trenches, the pay off in the Halbrand/Sauron plot. I would even say, I've seen enough where they understand the story more than Peter Jackson did. So, why am I still kind of disappointed and not immediately taken in like I was with Peter Jackson's films?
Well, I think to Jackson's credit, he put better people around him, and more qualified experts from the Tolkien community that at times he listened to. The pacing was far better (I'm speaking strictly of the LOTR trilogy, btw), but I also must admit pacing for 3, 3+hour films is going to be different than a 50-hour episodic series. That's part of it, but the main source of disappointment is what Eldy wrote. They decided to play this odd, middle-ground. I honestly think I would have liked it more if they had gone crazier with it, instead of this quasi-don't break too far from Jackson's films so we can appeal to those fans. They tempted us with some bold and crazy ideas (that from a fanfiction POV might have worked or completely bombed), but in the end decided to not want to stray too far from the films, or PJ's visions. Even hitting it over our heads with the similar movie quotes this episode. That's my main disappointment.
A lot of my thoughts, I think are similar to Eldy's (other than the Harfoots, which I have really enjoyed being in the series, and sad that there will be no more Lenny Henry).
I must admit that was a satisfying end to a season finale. It's just nice to have some key characters revealed and seeing a general direction of where the showrunner's creation is heading. There are issues I have mostly with the pacing and writing overall in Season 1. I'm not sure if it will get better, but at least the finale paid off to leave me interested and anticipating Season 2. I can enjoy a slow burn, if done well, but the middle episodes felt more like a slog and unnecessary time filler more than actually progressing anywhere. Now watching the pay off, my interests are piqued again to imagine where future seasons will go.
So, I was expecting to hate it if Halbrand turned out to be Sauron. Now that I know he is, I actually don't hate it. Part of it might be I just wasn't interested in the Galadriel/Halbrand plot. After the previous episode, I was wrapping my head around Halbrand is probably going to be Sauron, so let's see how they pull this "reveal" off. I think both actors stepped up and into their roles in the finale that I'm ok with it. I agree with Eldy, I like a Sauron 2nd Age redemption fanfiction and glad they went that route with someone who was redeemed after Morgoth's defeat. They left open a potential that if Galadriel never brought Halbrand to Middle-earth, or even indeed if he was never brought to Eregion, perhaps events would have played out differently. I like the Halbrand is Sauron better than I thought I would, because of the Sauron 2nd Age "fair form" redemption after Morgoth's defeat is a good story. Disappointed they didn't go further with it, and it all concluded in 20 minutes. But I think Morfydd Clark really stepped into Galadriel's role this episode, and the problems with her character, was down to the script writing and pacing, which isn't the actress' fault.
It convinces me that the showrunners understand the source material and are inspired by the story they're adapting. The series is largely, and in a general sense, following the themes of goodness, hope, and friendship present in Tolkien's story. I still think Elrond's convo with Gil-galad about oath breaking was the single best writing and scene in Season 1I see it in their portrayal of the orcs, the trenches, the pay off in the Halbrand/Sauron plot. I would even say, I've seen enough where they understand the story more than Peter Jackson did. So, why am I still kind of disappointed and not immediately taken in like I was with Peter Jackson's films?
Well, I think to Jackson's credit, he put better people around him, and more qualified experts from the Tolkien community that at times he listened to. The pacing was far better (I'm speaking strictly of the LOTR trilogy, btw), but I also must admit pacing for 3, 3+hour films is going to be different than a 50-hour episodic series. That's part of it, but the main source of disappointment is what Eldy wrote. They decided to play this odd, middle-ground. I honestly think I would have liked it more if they had gone crazier with it, instead of this quasi-don't break too far from Jackson's films so we can appeal to those fans. They tempted us with some bold and crazy ideas (that from a fanfiction POV might have worked or completely bombed), but in the end decided to not want to stray too far from the films, or PJ's visions. Even hitting it over our heads with the similar movie quotes this episode. That's my main disappointment.
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Tis the season of Sean Bean prequel shows
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I will try and not go all nerdy rant, though if you do want one of those Disparu on youtube pretty much surmises what I think of the series. He lterally goes through it scene by scene.
Anyways my takeaway from a series I was yearning for to be as good as the trilogy is: Hate it and will never watch it again.
I wanted it to be good, I wanted to love it, but there is nothing about this show that is even remotely good other than the fantastic scenery.
Now I don't mind changes to the story. I don't know the lore well enough most of the time to go Oh that didnt happen, or he wasnt supposed to be there for another thousand years. I mean we write fanfiction here and our stories at times alter canon. Especially with all the females running things :P Even PJ changed things and it was just fine, like the elves at Helms Deep (come on that was a stunning entrance!) Though I will never forgive them for what they did to Faramir, ever.
The whole making this and that charcter female or of colour I would normally rejoice in, however they utterly failed at doing it seamlessly. It seemed forced and like it was given to those actors to keep people happy and not because it made sense. (The word I am thinking of is escaping my mind.. arbitrary?)
So where I think this series died an agonizing death (to me) is purely because it is BORING! DULL! POINTLESS. The writing is AWFUL. Half the time the writing makes NO sense whatsoever! The other half is just utterly pointless! Like added fluff. So many of the episodes were rehashing what went on before only for nothing to happen! What? You spent 50 mill dollars for what? Nothing moved the episode forward!
99% of the time the acting was horrid and forced. Galadriel exhibit A. Nori exhibit B. And what was with Halbrands chage of accent in the last episode?? Was he sick of trying to look like Aragorn and tried to mimic Boromir now?
And while I can sorta go oh its a movie just go with it (like the size of the ships) NO ONE CAN SURVIVE A PYROCLASTIC FLOW!
And the flowery wordy attempts at sounding wise and knowledgeable were painful! You have not seen what I have seen! Acutally I have seen a.. You have not seen what I have seen! (in exactly the same tone without emphasising a specific word to really have him understand!) And all of those cryptic bumpersticker quotes drove me up the wall and just leaves you sitting there going.. what? A ship doesnt sink because it is looking towards the light? Huh?
But my hugest gripe is resting bi**ch face Galadriel. Wow, they went all out to make sure we hated her.. THE single most unlikable protagonist in the history of movies (in my opinion) like how are we EVER going to even remotely care for her? The snarling angry face made me think SHE was Sauron..
I mean she walked out of the burning destroyed village (after the volcano eruption) and left with just Theo. Right past a guy on FIRE! See if there are others alive? Nah eff em, they can take care of themselves, lets go so we can have this meaningful talk alone where i tell you my husband is likely dead and I never went looking for him. So.. you will spend a thousand years on revenging your brother.. but your HUSBAND? Nah, didnt like him anyways..
And why did she let them continue with the rings when she KNEW Halbrand was Sauron? Who aided them in making them?? Hello..
Oh and just throwing in the psycho Dis pretty much talking Durin into killing his dad for the POWAH.. like woah woman, powerhungry much?
Anyways, in conclusion this is why I didnt post in these threads as it just makes me so annoyed as my hopes were so high for it. Thank god it will be several years before the next season, hopefully never.
Anyways my takeaway from a series I was yearning for to be as good as the trilogy is: Hate it and will never watch it again.
I wanted it to be good, I wanted to love it, but there is nothing about this show that is even remotely good other than the fantastic scenery.
Now I don't mind changes to the story. I don't know the lore well enough most of the time to go Oh that didnt happen, or he wasnt supposed to be there for another thousand years. I mean we write fanfiction here and our stories at times alter canon. Especially with all the females running things :P Even PJ changed things and it was just fine, like the elves at Helms Deep (come on that was a stunning entrance!) Though I will never forgive them for what they did to Faramir, ever.
The whole making this and that charcter female or of colour I would normally rejoice in, however they utterly failed at doing it seamlessly. It seemed forced and like it was given to those actors to keep people happy and not because it made sense. (The word I am thinking of is escaping my mind.. arbitrary?)
So where I think this series died an agonizing death (to me) is purely because it is BORING! DULL! POINTLESS. The writing is AWFUL. Half the time the writing makes NO sense whatsoever! The other half is just utterly pointless! Like added fluff. So many of the episodes were rehashing what went on before only for nothing to happen! What? You spent 50 mill dollars for what? Nothing moved the episode forward!
99% of the time the acting was horrid and forced. Galadriel exhibit A. Nori exhibit B. And what was with Halbrands chage of accent in the last episode?? Was he sick of trying to look like Aragorn and tried to mimic Boromir now?
And while I can sorta go oh its a movie just go with it (like the size of the ships) NO ONE CAN SURVIVE A PYROCLASTIC FLOW!
And the flowery wordy attempts at sounding wise and knowledgeable were painful! You have not seen what I have seen! Acutally I have seen a.. You have not seen what I have seen! (in exactly the same tone without emphasising a specific word to really have him understand!) And all of those cryptic bumpersticker quotes drove me up the wall and just leaves you sitting there going.. what? A ship doesnt sink because it is looking towards the light? Huh?
But my hugest gripe is resting bi**ch face Galadriel. Wow, they went all out to make sure we hated her.. THE single most unlikable protagonist in the history of movies (in my opinion) like how are we EVER going to even remotely care for her? The snarling angry face made me think SHE was Sauron..
I mean she walked out of the burning destroyed village (after the volcano eruption) and left with just Theo. Right past a guy on FIRE! See if there are others alive? Nah eff em, they can take care of themselves, lets go so we can have this meaningful talk alone where i tell you my husband is likely dead and I never went looking for him. So.. you will spend a thousand years on revenging your brother.. but your HUSBAND? Nah, didnt like him anyways..
And why did she let them continue with the rings when she KNEW Halbrand was Sauron? Who aided them in making them?? Hello..
Oh and just throwing in the psycho Dis pretty much talking Durin into killing his dad for the POWAH.. like woah woman, powerhungry much?
Anyways, in conclusion this is why I didnt post in these threads as it just makes me so annoyed as my hopes were so high for it. Thank god it will be several years before the next season, hopefully never.
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Trying to compare it to the Lord of the Rings trilogy, out of perhaps an expectation that it could have the same impact as that trilogy did when I first watched them. It fell short, I agree with the critics, there is hardly anything memorable (in a positive way) about the dialogue. The music is memorable, the visuals are memorable. The acting isn't memorable, but it's not a detriment for me either. That is aside from some of the peripheral characters. I think Megan Richards (the actress playing Poppy) was an absolute star among the Harfoots. I also enjoyed Lenny Henry (sad his character has died). I will be said when Durin Sr. leaves the screen for good. Robert Aramayo's Elrond has grown on me. Despite Celebrimbor not looking like the greatest Elven smith of the age, I loved Charles Edwards' take on being more of a mad scientist, with a passion for craftsmanship that leads to obsession. At this point, the only one I would call memorable (from an acting standpoint) in Season 1 is Poppy.
The letdown is comparing it to LOTR, but I think The Hobbit trilogy is a fairer comparison. Peter Jackson had to compress LOTR to show a good story on screen. The Hobbit and Rings of Power are both prequels, that rely on capturing the same passions of the LOTR trilogy. It wasn't necessary to expand The Hobbit as Jackson did, to make it a good story. I think it is necessary to expand Tolkien's 2nd Age to fill a 50-hour episodic series. Comparing the series to The Hobbit, I would say Rings of Power is better. They demonstrated an understanding and a passion for Middle-earth's 2nd Age and hitting on Tolkien's themes about people working together for the common good, developing the orcs in ways that was far superior to Peter Jackson (or really any fantasy story I've seen), mortality vs. immortality, the glimmer of a Sauron redemption story (the reveal wasn't done terribly, it was just rushed). But I liked Halbrand becoming Sauron better than I thought I would, because in the series I always felt like Halbrand's "redemption" was based on feelings of guilt and not an actual desire to do good. It's Sauron looking for redemption in all the wrong places, power over, not power to preserve. It's a fine line between the way the Elves use their Rings. and the "deceits of the Enemy" to use his power over free will.
The only bits of dialogue that is memorable (in the non-cringe, but actually good) was Elrond and Durin's elevator conversation and Elrond and Gil-galad's conversation about oath breaking and hope, but that has the cringe "we need vast quantities of mithril immediately!" plot mixed in with it
.
I think the flaw in the series is they are trying to actually build it up as a comparison to the LOTR trilogy, and Season 1 underdelivered. They could have gone further in creating an interesting AU, or fanfiction story, but they played this safe middle-road to not stray too far from PJ's LOTR vision. They've done some things better, but I don't like the sense I'm getting about The Stranger being Gandalf. To Eldy's point about creating an interesting AU, the Stranger doesn't have to be Gandalf for me to like the character or plot. I would like it better, if the Stranger was one of the blue wizards, or because of copyright maybe can't be the blue wizard, but a generic Istar that was sent during the same time as Sauron's coming to confront him. Get crazier with it, have The Stranger go East and either try to weaken Sauron's growing power (maybe even form an alliance with Adar?), or join Sauron to defeat Adar, or whatever you want to do. My point is, it doesn't have to be Gandalf and the disappointment is it seems like that's the way they're going by blatantly ripping Gandalf's lines from the films.
The letdown is comparing it to LOTR, but I think The Hobbit trilogy is a fairer comparison. Peter Jackson had to compress LOTR to show a good story on screen. The Hobbit and Rings of Power are both prequels, that rely on capturing the same passions of the LOTR trilogy. It wasn't necessary to expand The Hobbit as Jackson did, to make it a good story. I think it is necessary to expand Tolkien's 2nd Age to fill a 50-hour episodic series. Comparing the series to The Hobbit, I would say Rings of Power is better. They demonstrated an understanding and a passion for Middle-earth's 2nd Age and hitting on Tolkien's themes about people working together for the common good, developing the orcs in ways that was far superior to Peter Jackson (or really any fantasy story I've seen), mortality vs. immortality, the glimmer of a Sauron redemption story (the reveal wasn't done terribly, it was just rushed). But I liked Halbrand becoming Sauron better than I thought I would, because in the series I always felt like Halbrand's "redemption" was based on feelings of guilt and not an actual desire to do good. It's Sauron looking for redemption in all the wrong places, power over, not power to preserve. It's a fine line between the way the Elves use their Rings. and the "deceits of the Enemy" to use his power over free will.
The only bits of dialogue that is memorable (in the non-cringe, but actually good) was Elrond and Durin's elevator conversation and Elrond and Gil-galad's conversation about oath breaking and hope, but that has the cringe "we need vast quantities of mithril immediately!" plot mixed in with it
.I think the flaw in the series is they are trying to actually build it up as a comparison to the LOTR trilogy, and Season 1 underdelivered. They could have gone further in creating an interesting AU, or fanfiction story, but they played this safe middle-road to not stray too far from PJ's LOTR vision. They've done some things better, but I don't like the sense I'm getting about The Stranger being Gandalf. To Eldy's point about creating an interesting AU, the Stranger doesn't have to be Gandalf for me to like the character or plot. I would like it better, if the Stranger was one of the blue wizards, or because of copyright maybe can't be the blue wizard, but a generic Istar that was sent during the same time as Sauron's coming to confront him. Get crazier with it, have The Stranger go East and either try to weaken Sauron's growing power (maybe even form an alliance with Adar?), or join Sauron to defeat Adar, or whatever you want to do. My point is, it doesn't have to be Gandalf and the disappointment is it seems like that's the way they're going by blatantly ripping Gandalf's lines from the films.
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Hello 9-1-1, I'd like to report a brutal murder.
Yeah, I can understand why people don't want the Stranger to be Gandalf—I don't want that, either—but I don't really see any ambiguity anymore. If he looks like PJ's Gandalf, talks like PJ's Gandalf, and exists in a show whose clearest creative vision is reminding people of things from PJ's movies...
To be clear, I don't mean this as a knock again Daniel Weyman's performance, which I've enjoyed so far, especially the few minutes where he's been able to talk clearly. As far as "amnesiac!Gandalf pals around with anachronistic* Hobbits in the Second Age" AUs go, there's a good chance ROP will be as good as could reasonably be expected. I just wish they were bolder.* By "anachronistic" I don't mean simply that Hobbits didn't play any role in Tolkien's Second Age stories, but that from a worldbuilding perspective, ROP failed to plausibly depict a prehistoric, nomadic, tribal version of Hobbit society. For example, there is no goddamn reason for them to have surnames when they live in groups small enough that they should all be cousins. But the Harfoots don't exist to be a plausible part of the world, they exist because the showrunners think it "does[n't] feel like Middle-earth if you don’t have hobbits or something like hobbits in it." (Thank God they don't have the rights to The Silmarillion, then!) To which end they didn't even come up with original names to better fit the milieu of their thousands-of-years-earlier setting, they just reused, and sometimes mixed and matched elements of, canonical Shire surnames. Lenny Henry's character, for instance, is surnamed Burrows even though these Hobbits have no custom of hole-dwelling. Which didn't stop Henry from giving one of the best Harfoot performances, but come on, McPayne.
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Uh, dude *pulls Boromir aside* I got some bad news for you.. :P
Totally Gandalf! I mean it cant not be. Generic Istar? A blue wizard? No chance, that would mean they read the books.. :P
About the good vs evil thing. I could not disagree more. The hobbits are evil. Pure evil. Now now, this isnt the big bad minion talking, but they are! Leaving their own behind to certain death!?? Oh we will remember you in this book, but eff off? :O Even Adar mourned the death of an orc, he showed more compassion than the hobbits! *calms down*
But I never saw it as good vs evil. I mean Galadriel constantly comes across as evil and yet we are meant to believe she is good? Dis and Durin, oh lovely couple, until the end when they are frigging evil. Even Adar isnt completely evil, mouring the death of an orc. Its all so grey and wishywashy your head is left spinning as to whom to root for.
My predication is that this epically failed and we will not see a season 2. (fingers crossed)
Totally Gandalf! I mean it cant not be. Generic Istar? A blue wizard? No chance, that would mean they read the books.. :P
About the good vs evil thing. I could not disagree more. The hobbits are evil. Pure evil. Now now, this isnt the big bad minion talking, but they are! Leaving their own behind to certain death!?? Oh we will remember you in this book, but eff off? :O Even Adar mourned the death of an orc, he showed more compassion than the hobbits! *calms down*
But I never saw it as good vs evil. I mean Galadriel constantly comes across as evil and yet we are meant to believe she is good? Dis and Durin, oh lovely couple, until the end when they are frigging evil. Even Adar isnt completely evil, mouring the death of an orc. Its all so grey and wishywashy your head is left spinning as to whom to root for.
My predication is that this epically failed and we will not see a season 2. (fingers crossed)
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They've already started filming season 2, albeit only a couple weeks ago, and given how much Amazon has riding on this—not just money, but reputation, since they've sorta staked the future of their hitherto second-tier streaming service on this and Thursday Night Football—I'd be surprised if they don't give it at least one additional season. And that's in a worst case scenario where they are disappointed by the viewership they got, which we'll likely never have complete clarity on, since Amazon cares less about eyeballs and more about people using Prime subscriptions to shop.
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*Pulls Winddancer aside* Sorry, friend, I've got bad news for you too. From my understanding of the rights they purchased, and the project, it's different from other projects in the business. They purchased the rights to produce a 50-hour series and broke it down to do 5 seasons, 8 episodes (roughly a bit more than hour) per season, plus some extras. There's already a clear beginning, middle, and end to the series that isn't going to go past 5 seasons (even if it winds up a massive, successful hit - which I'm still far from convinced it will). 5 seasons, no more, no less. Season 1 was the result of essentially pre-ordering 50 hours of showtime, there was no pressure to get fans immediately hooked and wanting to be invested in the story. We just have to have faith that it "will eventually pay off/get interesting."Winddancer wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:52 pm My predication is that this epically failed and we will not see a season 2. (fingers crossed)
I can hold out a fool's hope, even if it will disappoint me that he clearly Gandalf.Totally Gandalf! I mean it cant not be. Generic Istar? A blue wizard? No chance, that would mean they read the books.. :P
I will defend the showrunners from the critics who say they never read the material and don't understand Tolkien. I'm convinced by what I know of the 2nd Age, that they've read the source material and were inspired by it. If you don't want to take my word for it, I can start listing all the stuff here, but since you've restricted your rant, I'll stop myself here.
This ties in with @Eldy's response.
Hello 9-1-1, I'd like to report a brutal murder.
I honestly meant that as a compliment. But now I think it comes off as what I will call a Bilbo-compliment. "I don't like half of it, half as well as I should like and I like less than half of it, half as well as it deserves." 
In all honesty though, my intention was to say it's not truly fair to compare it to the LOTR trilogy. The Hobbit and RoP are both prequels to that story. It wasn't at all necessary for Jackson to insert all the filler material to stretch out The Hobbit story and make it an interesting story. But let's say for argument's sake, it was necessary. Because it is necessary to add filler to a story about the creation of the Rings of Power, the Fall of Eregion and Numenor, and make it an interesting story. Jackson had to compress LOTR to make the story work on film. Payne and McKay have to expand the 2nd Age material for the story to work. That's where I was going with my comparison to The Hobbit.
So in a Bilbo-compliment, lowering my expectations and making a fairer comparison to The Hobbit trilogy, I actually liked Rings of Power Season 1 better than The Hobbit. Flaws in the writing and pacing and all of it, I never felt the desire to defend The Hobbit from the critics, because it never inspired me enough to do so. I do feel that desire with Rings of Power.
I'll probably post more about these thoughts in my thread about how we view adaptations. But I'll write here, in general, I would say Jackson loved Lord of the Rings and surrounded himself with a team of people and actors who loved the story and the characters they played as well. The writing, storytelling, securing John Howe and Alan Lee all go towards Jackson's credit to surround himself with better talent. It's clear to me Payne and McKay read more than Lord of the Rings, and were inspired by the glimpses into the 2nd Age (as many of us have been), but the Amazon team as a whole leaves a lot to be desired. I'm far from convinced the writers are competent, both in writing good dialogue and at being good storytellers.A Loquacious Loreman.
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Just cause they purchased the rights to 50 hours, doesnt mean they will do it. Just means they can. It's already going around that the next season won't be ready for like 2 years as they havent even started it and given the uproar about season 1, they could decide it is financially a better option to just sit on it. Also being said that the money is being slashed and they wont be doing faraway locations but yanking it back to the UK.
Now my hope is that they fire those ridiculous people they call writers and employ someone who knows how to actually write something that makes sense. I still have trouble believing someone who was a writer on Breaking Bad, could write such drivel :P
Now my hope is that they fire those ridiculous people they call writers and employ someone who knows how to actually write something that makes sense. I still have trouble believing someone who was a writer on Breaking Bad, could write such drivel :P
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*raises hand to volunteer to become one of their writers*
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*Seconds the motion*
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@Boromir88, I definitely liked ROP better than the Hobbit films, too. (Granted, I haven't watched any of them since BOFA-EE was in theatres in October 2015, but I don't think I'd like them more on a rewatch.) I actually get the sense from McPayne's comments that they prefer The Lord of the Rings to the rest of the legendarium and were interested in making their show feel more of a piece with the Third Age than the anything else. I still can't help rolling my eyes at the idea that Tolkien's Second Age is "heartwarming and life-affirming and optimistic." That said, I agree they are clearly familiar with Tolkien's other works, and almost certainly have more of an interest in them than Jackson does. I hope we one day can get an explanation of where their idea of mithril came from, though.
I look forward to reading any further thoughts you might post, here or in the other thread!
I look forward to reading any further thoughts you might post, here or in the other thread!
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There is a lot I wish to write, so we'll see how long this gets, and primarily it will be responding to @Winddancer. So, don't take this as an attack like "how dare you not love Rings of Power." It's more "I like some of the things the show has done, so here's why I disagree." I also want to add that for me, Episodes 5-7 were a slog to get through. I was getting frustrated by the season going in pointless places and characters just seeming to wonder around with no direction or thought of where the plot was going. I think I blocked out 80% of what was happening, and definitely most of the character's dialogue. Reading through previous episodes here and elsewhere, I completely missed Disa suggesting patricide to her husband. 
Realizing that I must have blocked out 80% of what was going on in the middle episodes, I think it's just as possible for those who absolutely hate the show to miss the parts that I thought were good. It's also easy to miss the qualities when there is so much confusion and strange "mystical" style writing about rocks and boats. Anyway, I'll get to addressing the points I disagree with and why I see a lot of Tolkien themes present in the series. I also could probably re-watch Season 1 at some point (in the new context that Halbrand is Sauron), but it's not high on my list when I want to watch shows like Andor and House of the Dragon.
-I'll start with the season finale. It's easy to miss because of how rushed and crammed the finale was, but they didn't decide to forge 3 rings until almost the very end. When Halbrand was helping and aiding Celebrimbor in the forge, the plan was to make 1 crown that they would give to Gil-galad. It wasn't until after Galadriel's temptation and refusal of Sauron that Galadriel, Elrond and Celebrimbor decided to forge 3 rings. Galadriel says something like "1 is too powerful for a single person, 2 will divide, 3 there's balance." So, that's why Galadriel doesn't stop the forging of rings process, and how I think they are addressing the "Sauron never touched or sullied the 3 Elven Rings." It wasn't going to be 3 rings until like the last 5 minutes of the episode. Which is slightly problematic from their decision to cram this all into the finale, but not as problematic as Sauron telling Celebrimbor "hey let's forge some rings." I actually do want to see the finale again relatively soon, because I think it's Celebrimbor who brings up it should be rings for their "circular form" And the idea of a circle being the most powerful shape in the world sounds very Tolkienian. I recall OP threads about the symbolism of circular forms and rings. So, that was a nice touch.
-On Disa suggesting patricide to Durin. This I'll just honestly have to watch again, because I must have blocked it out trying to slug my way through episodes 5-7. My only guess is the show is going in the direction of some sort of mithril-sickness like Dragon sickness. In their "lore" (I don't know it was weird how they explained where mithril came from) I recall there being a tree that some hoighty-tighty elf hid a silmaril in, a Balrog that injected evil into the same tree and a lightning strike. So, mithril was composed of both "light and dark" elements? And my only idea is they're going some sort of mithril-sickness route, I do recall Disa looking slightly crazed about "that mithril is ours!" I just don't recall anything about patricide, but it must have been said!
-On the general theme of people working together, and the qualities of goodness, mortality vs immortality. Game of Thrones focuses on negative human behavior, people generally just treating others like shire, and being shire people to gain more power...etc. I definitely have not gotten that impression from RoP, the show has been heavily about friendships and different people working together. That doesn't mean there still aren't bad actors and "orcs on both sides," but there is a lot in the series about different people working together. Elrond and Durin's arcs in Season 1 were entirely around friendship. How Elrond betrayed their friendship, and how they rebuild that friendship. The walking song had an entire scene of the Stranger being with the Brandyfoot clan and being together, helping each other out. In the season finale the point Strangedalf (I might as well just accept it and say it now) was "I'm good." I agree with previous posts in other threads that say this was really all over the place in the Harfoots going back and forth about accepting Strangedalf is there to help to "oh no he couldn't fix a tree and almost killed a little Harfoot. Wait he did fix the tree! Yay!" But Stranedalf's season 1 arc re-enforces "I'm good." "You're here to help."
-On the topic of Harfoots being evil because we'll leave you behind and put your name in a book. I don't know enough about migratory cultures to determine the morality (and accuracy of this). I do think it clearly shows a darker underside to their culture, but that's not necessarily evil. It's confusing to follow and wrap my head around how can a society that focuses on sticking together, "twos and hands" "never walking alone," also be Darwinian? During the festival I actually got Wickerman vibes, half expecting Christopher Lee as Lord Summerisle, popping out of the trees to lead the Harfoots in Pagan sacrifices. It has Darwinian vibes, but I don't know enough to say whether it can be judged by our own thoughts of "good and evil." To Harfoot society, it seems as if "Always follow the trail. Never walk alone" "we will wait for you." is about death. As Sadoc dies in the season finale saying "I must leave the trail now. My wife is waiting." And the Harfoots are there with him at the end. I agree this concept is all confusingly written though, because they were all ready to ditch the Brandyfoot clan behind on the migration. However, that was punishment for Nori breaking their laws and bringing the Stranger into their camp. Malva says the punishment for breaking their laws was to be de-caravaned. Sadoc says something about Nori being young so the Brandfoot clan will still go with them, but they'll be at the back as the punishment for breaking their laws. So, it wasn't simply because Harfoots being evil and treating their own like shire, but given the writer's it's not easy to follow.
Realizing that I must have blocked out 80% of what was going on in the middle episodes, I think it's just as possible for those who absolutely hate the show to miss the parts that I thought were good. It's also easy to miss the qualities when there is so much confusion and strange "mystical" style writing about rocks and boats. Anyway, I'll get to addressing the points I disagree with and why I see a lot of Tolkien themes present in the series. I also could probably re-watch Season 1 at some point (in the new context that Halbrand is Sauron), but it's not high on my list when I want to watch shows like Andor and House of the Dragon.
-I'll start with the season finale. It's easy to miss because of how rushed and crammed the finale was, but they didn't decide to forge 3 rings until almost the very end. When Halbrand was helping and aiding Celebrimbor in the forge, the plan was to make 1 crown that they would give to Gil-galad. It wasn't until after Galadriel's temptation and refusal of Sauron that Galadriel, Elrond and Celebrimbor decided to forge 3 rings. Galadriel says something like "1 is too powerful for a single person, 2 will divide, 3 there's balance." So, that's why Galadriel doesn't stop the forging of rings process, and how I think they are addressing the "Sauron never touched or sullied the 3 Elven Rings." It wasn't going to be 3 rings until like the last 5 minutes of the episode. Which is slightly problematic from their decision to cram this all into the finale, but not as problematic as Sauron telling Celebrimbor "hey let's forge some rings." I actually do want to see the finale again relatively soon, because I think it's Celebrimbor who brings up it should be rings for their "circular form" And the idea of a circle being the most powerful shape in the world sounds very Tolkienian. I recall OP threads about the symbolism of circular forms and rings. So, that was a nice touch.
-On Disa suggesting patricide to Durin. This I'll just honestly have to watch again, because I must have blocked it out trying to slug my way through episodes 5-7. My only guess is the show is going in the direction of some sort of mithril-sickness like Dragon sickness. In their "lore" (I don't know it was weird how they explained where mithril came from) I recall there being a tree that some hoighty-tighty elf hid a silmaril in, a Balrog that injected evil into the same tree and a lightning strike. So, mithril was composed of both "light and dark" elements? And my only idea is they're going some sort of mithril-sickness route, I do recall Disa looking slightly crazed about "that mithril is ours!" I just don't recall anything about patricide, but it must have been said!
-On the general theme of people working together, and the qualities of goodness, mortality vs immortality. Game of Thrones focuses on negative human behavior, people generally just treating others like shire, and being shire people to gain more power...etc. I definitely have not gotten that impression from RoP, the show has been heavily about friendships and different people working together. That doesn't mean there still aren't bad actors and "orcs on both sides," but there is a lot in the series about different people working together. Elrond and Durin's arcs in Season 1 were entirely around friendship. How Elrond betrayed their friendship, and how they rebuild that friendship. The walking song had an entire scene of the Stranger being with the Brandyfoot clan and being together, helping each other out. In the season finale the point Strangedalf (I might as well just accept it and say it now) was "I'm good." I agree with previous posts in other threads that say this was really all over the place in the Harfoots going back and forth about accepting Strangedalf is there to help to "oh no he couldn't fix a tree and almost killed a little Harfoot. Wait he did fix the tree! Yay!" But Stranedalf's season 1 arc re-enforces "I'm good." "You're here to help."
-On the topic of Harfoots being evil because we'll leave you behind and put your name in a book. I don't know enough about migratory cultures to determine the morality (and accuracy of this). I do think it clearly shows a darker underside to their culture, but that's not necessarily evil. It's confusing to follow and wrap my head around how can a society that focuses on sticking together, "twos and hands" "never walking alone," also be Darwinian? During the festival I actually got Wickerman vibes, half expecting Christopher Lee as Lord Summerisle, popping out of the trees to lead the Harfoots in Pagan sacrifices. It has Darwinian vibes, but I don't know enough to say whether it can be judged by our own thoughts of "good and evil." To Harfoot society, it seems as if "Always follow the trail. Never walk alone" "we will wait for you." is about death. As Sadoc dies in the season finale saying "I must leave the trail now. My wife is waiting." And the Harfoots are there with him at the end. I agree this concept is all confusingly written though, because they were all ready to ditch the Brandyfoot clan behind on the migration. However, that was punishment for Nori breaking their laws and bringing the Stranger into their camp. Malva says the punishment for breaking their laws was to be de-caravaned. Sadoc says something about Nori being young so the Brandfoot clan will still go with them, but they'll be at the back as the punishment for breaking their laws. So, it wasn't simply because Harfoots being evil and treating their own like shire, but given the writer's it's not easy to follow.
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Honestly, I don't think you missed anything. As you allude to, Disa got a fanatical light in her eyes —the golden color of which was exceptionally and, I assume, intentionally prominent in that scene—but all she talks about is how Durin IV is going to inherit the Kingdom eventually. Her final line, "And together, one day, we are going to dig," doesn't really scream "patricide" to me. I remember thinking they were going for some Lady Macbeth vibes when I first watched that scene, but patricide is a vague implication at best. Disa's bigger point is, I think, simply to get Durin IV out of the self-blaming attitude he had at the start of the conversation. Though I won't argue it's impossible she'll have a more directly seditious follow-up next season.
Yes, technically, but Marigold was already afraid that the Brandyfoot family would be left behind before anyone but the girls knew about the Stranger, solely because they couldn't pull the cart without Largo's help. (This conversation begins at timestamp 38:40 in Episode 3, which I only know because I just rewatched it to make sure I hadn't dreamed it up, given that nobody else seems to remember it.
The Stranger's reveal happens about eight minutes of screentime later.) This is foreshadowed in Episode 2, when Sadoc's first question about Largo's injury is whether he can migrate, and Poppy reacts defensively, even angrily, to Malva's comment that he can't put weight on his foot. Largo's plan for how to avoid being left behind is to stay at the front of the caravan, which Marigold is visibly skeptical of. None of his attempts at soothing his wife include a line like, "Don't worry, the others wouldn't abandon us to die because I sprained my ankle at an inopportune time," so I have to assume this has happened before and is considered a realistic fear.Loremistress Emerita | she/her
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Wasn't referring to the light in her eyes. All about what she says. Starts at 1.03.36. The whole: No matter how many crests he hurls to the floor, this will be YOUR kingdom. The way she says that, after saying the father was old, feeble and suspicious. And then goes on to say, not your brother's, not some dwarf lord. YOURS and MINE. Like wot?? And the ruling part.. and the that mithril belongs to us, you and me.. Greedy wifey..
And agree with Eldy about the harfoots. And does it matter if its been done in nomade tribes, according to my morales its evil to leave your family and friends behind when they are at their weakest. Even if it is for the good of the tribe. Not like they cant frigging find safe ground for a bit for those that are hurt and then come back for them later..
Can I just say I found it gross that the hobbits were so dirty? Really put me off hoppit cookies..
And Boromir I definitely wasnt taking anything as an attack <3 Just needed to vent and I have, its all good as I wont be subjected to it for another few years lol
And agree with Eldy about the harfoots. And does it matter if its been done in nomade tribes, according to my morales its evil to leave your family and friends behind when they are at their weakest. Even if it is for the good of the tribe. Not like they cant frigging find safe ground for a bit for those that are hurt and then come back for them later..
Can I just say I found it gross that the hobbits were so dirty? Really put me off hoppit cookies..
And Boromir I definitely wasnt taking anything as an attack <3 Just needed to vent and I have, its all good as I wont be subjected to it for another few years lol
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Yeah, I'm pretty skeptical of the "historically" or "anthropologically" based defenses of this subplot I've read. I don't claim to be an expert on nomadic societies, but hominids—not only anatomically modern humans—have engaged in care-giving for the wounded since before the development of agriculture. Harfoots are people, not gazelles, and taking care of the wounded is a pretty essential characteristic of human societies. Especially when the society in question lives in isolated groups small enough that everyone should be cousins, though ROP doesn't really acknowledge that. I'm not saying there are never extreme circumstances where the wounded might be left behind, but Largo's injury wasn't even severe. He could still walk, he was just of limited help pulling the cart.Winddancer wrote: ↑Sun Oct 16, 2022 7:17 pmAnd does it matter if its been done in nomade tribes, according to my morales its evil to leave your family and friends behind when they are at their weakest. Even if it is for the good of the tribe.
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I just watched the final episode and WOW. I liked how it tied everything together and also I had a couple of "I knew it!" moments lol. I always suspected Halbrand of being Sauron from the start. He seemed very shifty. I suppose they used the name Halbrand instead of Annatar so it wouldn't give it away. I also believed the wizard was Gandalf. I know it didn't exactly reveal which wizard he is, but Gandalf's powers are in wind and fire so I think it's pretty clear.
I'm confused as to why Galadriel didn't tell the others that Halbrand was Sauron...anyone have an answer to this? Elrond figured it out but Celebrimbor is still in the dark... why?
I really liked the shot of Sauron at the end going towards mount doom to forge his precious haha. End song was very cool and eerie too.
I'm confused as to why Galadriel didn't tell the others that Halbrand was Sauron...anyone have an answer to this? Elrond figured it out but Celebrimbor is still in the dark... why?
I really liked the shot of Sauron at the end going towards mount doom to forge his precious haha. End song was very cool and eerie too.
And whither then? I cannot say...
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I think it's likely Galadriel believed—seemingly accurately, in the show's universe—that the Rings were necessary for the Elves to be able to stay in Middle-earth, and didn't want to risk Elrond and Celebrimbor getting cold feet if they knew Sauron had provided essential help in their creation. (While the only help we see him offer onscreen is advice on creating alloys, he evidently gave Celebrimbor the idea of an artifact that carries powers of the Unseen World.) Another factor could be that Galadriel believed Sauron's insinuation/threat that the others would blame her, and maybe even cast her out, for having played a role in Sauron's return. Which, y'know, he might be right about!Melahny_oftheWoods wrote: ↑Wed Oct 19, 2022 5:08 amI'm confused as to why Galadriel didn't tell the others that Halbrand was Sauron...anyone have an answer to this? Elrond figured it out but Celebrimbor is still in the dark... why?
I was lukewarm on the ending song when I first listened to it before Episode 8 aired, but it's really grown on me.
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Gil-Galad was trying to reward Galadriel by trying to kick her out into the west in the beginning. I shudder to think what the punishment would be…
elf latrine management until the end of the world or being responsible for managing the population of cats in the realm until they go extinct. *shudders*
elf latrine management until the end of the world or being responsible for managing the population of cats in the realm until they go extinct. *shudders*
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@Winddancer @Eldy Dunami Good points about the Harfeet. You're right I missed that part about Marigold being worried they couldn't keep up BEFORE the punishment. I think the series is showing the positive side of human behavior by working together. In Episodes 7 and 8 they don't let Nori go out on the own and Malva was direct in saying she was wrong about the Stranger. I think essentially the problem comes down to the script and being all over the place. My only guess is this decision was made after Largo's unconvincing speech about being Harfeet. It didn't make sense having him do it, considering they were ready to ditch them behind. And going back in forth about Strangendalf.
@Melahny_oftheWoods, I enjoyed the end credits song too. A friend's comment elsewhere made me realize the dual meaning of the Ring verse line:
...only when I heard the Ring Poem sung at the end of Ep. 8 did it strike me there are two meanings to "In the land of Mordor, where the shadows LIE."
The whole season I did not like the characterization of Galadriel and was bored by the Galadriel/Halbrand plot. I think both did well in the season finale of playing their roles where the big reveal wasn't done terribly. It really comes across in this episode, the word I think of first with Sauron and the Ring is...Lie. I really enjoyed the scene where he was twisting Galadriel's memory of Finrod and his deceits played a big role in Galadriel's temptation. I only wish character choices (Galadriel and I think Miriel too) didn't just appear to happen so randomly. They seem to happen to me because the Amazon team decided "well it has to happen" and not by any change we've seen in the characters before to make it convincing that they truly changed. If that makes sense? I still want to watch the season again with the context of knowing now that Halbrand is Sauron.
@Melahny_oftheWoods, I enjoyed the end credits song too. A friend's comment elsewhere made me realize the dual meaning of the Ring verse line:
...only when I heard the Ring Poem sung at the end of Ep. 8 did it strike me there are two meanings to "In the land of Mordor, where the shadows LIE."
The whole season I did not like the characterization of Galadriel and was bored by the Galadriel/Halbrand plot. I think both did well in the season finale of playing their roles where the big reveal wasn't done terribly. It really comes across in this episode, the word I think of first with Sauron and the Ring is...Lie. I really enjoyed the scene where he was twisting Galadriel's memory of Finrod and his deceits played a big role in Galadriel's temptation. I only wish character choices (Galadriel and I think Miriel too) didn't just appear to happen so randomly. They seem to happen to me because the Amazon team decided "well it has to happen" and not by any change we've seen in the characters before to make it convincing that they truly changed. If that makes sense? I still want to watch the season again with the context of knowing now that Halbrand is Sauron.
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Thanks @Eldy Dunami! That makes sense. I see Elrond is going to keep silent too. Maybe Gil-Galad would force them to destroy the rings if he knew about Sauron's influence.
That's cool @Boromir88 I never thought of it like that!
I like how Halbrand looks similar to Aragorn (I think so anyway), because it makes you want to believe he is really going to be a hero. I'm amused now thinking of Sauron sitting there all injured after the battle, pretending he's going to die... he's probably smirking inwardly at how great his acting skills are.
That's cool @Boromir88 I never thought of it like that!
I like how Halbrand looks similar to Aragorn (I think so anyway), because it makes you want to believe he is really going to be a hero. I'm amused now thinking of Sauron sitting there all injured after the battle, pretending he's going to die... he's probably smirking inwardly at how great his acting skills are.
And whither then? I cannot say...
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As with Tom Bombadil, Winddancer speaks here for me too. I must admit to hating this show without having seen a single episode - not even a trailer. But the commentary above feels so spot on that I believe I am justified in my antipathy.Winddancer wrote: ↑Sat Oct 15, 2022 10:51 am Anyways my takeaway from a series I was yearning for to be as good as the trilogy is: Hate it and will never watch it again.
Some years ago I saw that Christopher Tolkien had spoken out bitterly against the first PJ trilogy. My first reaction was 'Whoa! That is a bit unfair - you are overlooking all the wonderful things about those movies.' And they were wonderful, and back in the day I watched them again and again (and again and again). *But* over the months and years after reading CT's complaints they niggled at the back of my mind, and then the abysmal Hobbit trilogy made it terribly clear how right he was.
PJ got a lot right, but not everything, and a fair bit he just did not see. The progression of moving image adaptations *could* have been daring, with new directors each facing the challenge of capturing what those before had missed. Likely the results would have fallen down in unexpected ways, but by now we might have three *different* modern adaptations' (not to mention the old animation) - and we might be blowing our minds comparing these movies with each other and with the books.
What I've learned from this thread is that the mistake of hiring PJ to direct the Hobbit movies is now compounded by Amazon taking the PJ Middle-earth as canon. Lip service may be made to canonical texts, but the real model is PJ's vision - and, honestly, I'd so rather be watching an Amazon series modelled on the vision of various members of the Plaza.
I like especially Eldy's point about taking the series as one does fan-fiction. The primary difference being that quite a lot of fan-fiction writers care deeply about what Tolkien wrote.
I have a sense that the wonderful online world that combined movies and lore is now over, that the world will increasingly split into pure movie fans and pure text fans - at least until someone puts artistic vision over profits and starts the movie adaptation of the books all over again. But Amazon probably just set that event back twenty years.
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.
