Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

So, with Season 1 being complete, what grades would you give Rings of Power? In the following categories: Visuals/Special effects, Costumes/Make-up, Acting, Plot, Writing/Dialogue, Music, Themes/Motifs, and Overall.

Discuss any or all of them and any other categories I may have missed. I'll go into details later, but for an overall.

Overall: C+. I think Visuals and Themes/Motifs are the best part of the show from Season 1. My overall enjoyment gets dragged down by the cringy dialogue and incomplete plot lines. Once the stunning visuals sort of wear off in the original episodes it became harder to overlook the major problems I had with the writing. Overall, I thought the acting was pretty good. There were a few duds (especially actors changing accents), but I think some of performances suffer from a poor script, or a character being portrayed differently than what I imagined.

Like Gil-galad and Celebrimbor are portrayed quite differently than what I imagined, but I think the actors (Benjamin Walker and Charles Edwards) give convincing performances in their roles. There's some quite strong performances though (Joseph Mawle as Adar, Lloyd Owen as Elendil, Megan Richards as Poppy, Lenny Henry as Sadoc, Daniel Weyman as Gandgeralf, The 2 Durins, Sofia Nomvete as Disa). I think Charlie Vickers in the Season finale pulled off the Sauron reveal in a way that wasn't terrible and Robert Aramayo's Elrond grew on me. So, more good than bad as far as the acting.

Costumes/Make-up: C
Sorry but I could not get over Elrond's terrible, large ears. They did not look elvish at all-- more like a big eared Hobbit. Same with some of the other elves like Celebrimbor. and they looked very fake, like something you get off Amazon (lol) pasted over with concealer. I liked Galadriel's costumes and hair, and a lot of the other costumes were very pretty. The Hobbits looked good. However, as I noticed other people point out the armour was not great. Looked pretty flat and thin.

Plot: C
I liked the plot and storyline, except unfortunately, it seemed too slow paced. I enjoyed the final episode more than the previous 7. I felt like the episodes were long and drawn out, without much actually happening/progressing. Maybe they should have done like 3 or four episodes or something.

As discussed on the threads, I thought the Mithril to power the elves magic plot was very strange and out of nowhere. I don't think that fit in with anything at all, and they should have stuck to the lore instead.

Also I was hoping they would spend more time on the actual forging of the Rings --but they spent a few scenes on it. It felt rushed and it felt like barely anything. The Sauron reveal was great though.

I'll be brief with each category for now... full of spoilers... I'll likely revisit this and make edits on occasion as I dwell more on the season after a binge re-watch through all 8 episodes back-to-back.

• Visuals/Special effects - A-. I think they captured the look and feel of Middle Earth in general, with Numenor and Khazad Dum the stars of the presentation. I will put this in the 'visuals' .... Charles Edwards is a wonderful actor and he is doing a great job of presenting Celebrimbor, he does not have the look of the Celebrimbor that is in my head-canon. It is one of the big negatives I have with the visuals so I mention it here. It's is along the lines of Liv Tyler not appearing as the Arwen of my head canon.
• Costumes/Make-up - B. It is weighted on an 'overall' scale as some I thought was really good, and a few things I thought was not-so-good. First some of the not-so-good. In agreement with Melahny, the elf-ears are a weak-link especially coupled with the short hair. The only one that it really works with is Arondir. Also, some of the armour looked rather pedestrian. On the plus side, they portrayed the Dwarves really well, especially both Durins. I liked the guild emblems of Numenor, and I liked how Galadriel, Mariel, Elendil, and Farien were portrayed. A big plus for me is the Orcs... Uruks. Much more menacing than the PJ Orcs! They captured them well. Overall, they captured the essence with most of the costuming.
• Acting - B. There are some stellar scenes, and some are doing much better than others. I think a lot of the negatives I have pertain more to the script writing than the actor's themselves. The acting standouts for me are the characters Durin III, Durin IV, Arondir, Mariel, and Elendil. Honorable mentions are Pharazon, Adar, Theo, and Galadriel. I'm fairly neutral on the rest. The actors and the acting is good, but is hindered by the scripts they are handed. I look beyond the accents used just as I look beyond the heritage of the actors.
• Plot - C. I found the plot somewhat rudderless as if the showrunners were themselves floundering with what direction to take, especially in the first few episodes. The whole of the sea scenes where Galadriel gets on board to Valinor, then jumps off far to the west is a total cringeworthy 'WTH' moment for me. I 'get' what they were trying to set up, but that was just outright bad along the lines of Arwen catching Aragorn out in the wild at unawares. Add to that Halbarand and Co out floating on wreckage without much of any explanation as to 'why' they were out there, and the who/what/why/how the 'Corsairs' were out raiding ships in the Sundering Seas, really had me shaking my head. In the end it was used to bring Galadriel and 'Halbarand' to Numenor. Also, another cringeworthy 'WTH' moment for me was/is the whole 'Mithril' being needed to 'save' the elves. I will give credit to the whole good/evil battle of the tree creating mithril as a neat fan-ficcy tale, but that whole Elf-Mithril connection storyline was a bit rough to take. Also, with the Balrog scene in the depths of Khazad Dum, I'm really hoping that they don't bring it in too soon, which it is appearing they will do.
• Writing/Dialogue - D+. This is where a lot of it falls down for me. I could go into this rather deep, but will just say that lines like Galadriel saying to Elrond when he tells her to put up her sword 'Without it, what am I to be', and Bronwyn's whole offhanded 'I'll go with you' when Arondir says he is going off east. Another crappy portrayal was the whole "fight" with the Ice Troll. Galadriel's 'squad' looked pretty useless as they got kicked around much like Gondor's soldiers in the battle of Osgiliath in PJ's project. Galadriel comes and PJ Legolas-like, saves the day singlehandedly, complete with sword-spin when she is done, and oh look... it seems all the squad is back standing around again. I mention Peter Jackson's film projects here, because the writing of rings of Power seems to love giving hat-tips to those projects with their fancy Legoladriel footwork, dropping orc-heads in front of people, and finding a Viggo lookalike actor for Halbarand. I get they are trying to do fan service with all this, but it falls flat, and the fans of PJ will only point out that they are 'copying the master' or something. It is my hope that the showrunners give up on trying to incorporate so much fan-service and do their own thing (within the lore if not canon), for better or worse. One of the plusses is the usually-mentions of characters and moments in the Tolkien lore. Feanor and the Silmarils, Anarion (though they seem to allude that he is the 'older' brother to Isildur and Farien), and the visuals of the Two Trees of Valinor in the 1st episode.
• Music - A. I find no real flaws with it, and I did enjoy Fiona Apple's singing 'Where The Shadows Lie' at the end of the last episode very nice!
• Themes/Motifs - C-ish. Not sure which way to go with this. It sort of rolls into the whole 'visuals' thing. They done wonderfully with Numenor, though I would have liked to see it a bit 'grander' and the ships bigger and more plentiful. Since the timelines are all distorted, I would love to see their shipbuilding yards in Middle Earth (Lond Daer, etc.) and with the mention of Pelargir at the end of the last episode, there is a possibility they might allude more to this? The reason I think it would be good is to demonstrate the strengthening of Numenor, and the reason I think they won't is they seemed to have ingrained in the earlier episodes that going to Middle Earth was something Numenor didn't like doing.
• Overall - 6.5/10. I debated giving it a 7 but so much of it was quite rough. The whole 'The Sea Is Always Right' lameness cost it a half-point. You may note that I have left out the whole Harfoot story in my summary. The reason is I thought it was to me it was a bit of a sideshow to the whole telling of the rest of the tale. The whole storyline would be a wonderful story on its own, but it is a bit rough at this point merging it in with the rest of what was presented. I know the whole 'meteor man' story is incorporated into it and they are alluding to it being Gandalf, but when he was using his powers in that last episode, he had an eerie 'Christopher Lee' look to him. It is my hope that it would be Radagast as they could do more with his backstory. Saruman would be a decent choice as they could portray that he was initially good. The whole 'watcher' bit I feel was a missed opportunity for the show to show some depth in the 'wizard' storyline, but I'll get more into that another time as I digress here. Overall, I thought the show was a reasonable effort in portrayal while adhering to the restraints put on them by the limitations of source material, the setting in the 2nd Age, and the individual approvals needed from the Tolkien Estate for stretching the boundaries.

Overall: I have nothing nice to say here
I dislike the ignorance and avoidance of the canon timeline, and heartily condemn the writers for their hubris in congratulating themselves that they've written the story Tolkien never wrote. They certainly have written a story Tolkien would never have written, that is true - but that's not a good thing. If you pretend this was made by people who had only vaguely heard there was once a story called The Lord of the Rings, and treat it like a first draft prequel that somehow unfortunately got past the editors, it makes more sense. It makes more sense than 'this was a labour of love by Tolkien fans for Tolkien fans' because that's patently untrue.
I wondered what was going on, when the non-plot seemed to drag on interminally, episode after episode. I am glad my brother made me laugh about it, because otherwise I'd cry. I wasn't going to watch it, but he said it was funny. He isn't a big fan of LotR, though he saw the films, but he howled with laughter when I told him Galadriel in this show was supposed to be a young Cate Blanchett, and promptly went off to tell his gf this hilarious information, whereupon there was giggling for about ten minutes.

Visuals: 5/10
The landscapes were nice, but then that's a location scout's kudos, not the show's. The village, with its tiny bridge 'forcing' the orcs over in single file was very funny, but not realistic - hey guys, a large stride should get you over that stream.
Numenor was disappointing to me, and looked rather like a Mediterranean port with its buildings jumbled together on buildings, like no architect gave a monkey's cuss about the look of the whole - in fact, Ankh-Morpork in the flesh! I was expecting something entirely grand and breathtaking for somewhere lauded as the glory of the race of Men - a little more Byzantine, or at least Greco-Roman, not just nods to it with the odd building or statue.
Also, not sure why they bothered showing us the map at any time, these places were clearly only ever a week's ride away from each other, at the maximum.

Special effects: 4/10
The unbuilt places which were only ever seen from a distance, and then in ugly close-up on an obvious set, were disappointing. Because of this, it didn't feel real. If they can create beautiful worlds in CGI for games, please do not tell me that you cannot create a Numenor that looks glorious - even past her prime - and send a drone through to SHOW us the place! If you have Alan Lee and John Howe ... I really want to ask those men to expound on how their PJ and Amazon experiences were different, though I imagine consummate professionalism will stop them from speaking about it.
Let's not talk about the day-to-night orc lighting. It was just sad.
Perhaps the best bits were Feminem's powers, I think ... just because you're not actually part of Tolkien's legendarium, why should that stop you turning up and godmoding the crap outta the people around you? It's just a shame they only burned the Halfwits' carts.
Chief Halfwit sitting down to die watching his last sunrise - cue instant orange sunrise - was an awfully-timed moment too.
The volcano was disappointing (mostly because the pyroclastic flow that decimated the landscape didn't actually appear to kill many people at all, even those standing in its path, but also because I am not entirely sure why it erupted ... water flowing into a gigantic airy cavern with pools of magma in? Surely it'd just have created a crust? Do they not know that eruptions follow a build-up of pressure?)
And really, what was going on with that warg?


Costumes: 2/10
Sauron looked good in everything, which is par for the course in this, his sympathetic origin story.
Otherwise, most costumes generally looked like something knocked up for £50 over the weekend. The elven clothing didn't flatter figures, and seemed to be very much one-size-fits-all. The amount of times 'Elrond' wore a giant scarf/wrap that hid his clothing ... when you think of the hours and hours LotR artisans spent lovingly crafting and creating the detail in the very warp and weft of their fabrics before they even began sewing them together, this is a giant embarrassment. The Numenorean 'armour' had moobs. Why???? If the actors had the moobs, design armour that HIDES it! The lady dwarf clothing was ... not suitable for company, perhaps with your husband, yes - but do the elves need a flash of dwarven thigh? And do not get me started on the anachronistic racer-back design of that Southlander woman's dress ... the social mores of Tolkien's M-e would have her ostracised as a loose woman for wearing revealing clothing - and clearly no one else in her village wore such things.

Hair and Make-up: 4/10
Orcs looked like orcs.
The grotty Halfwits looked grotty.
The Southlanders all looked old and weatherbeaten, except Spokeswoman, who was apparently born with it (although maybe it was Maybelline) - she certainly seemed dirt-proof amongst her filthy fellows.
The elves looked like men or Vulcans.
Gil-Galad was the most Tolkien-looking elf in the whole show, and he never managed to get that apologetic-embarrassed look off his face the entire time - but that's not the hair and make-up's fault.
Did they deliberately have short-haired elves to make Galadriel look different? Her hair was often rather windswept and natural human-looking, so perhaps it was the actress's own, but the sense of ethereal elf just never materialised.
Dwarf men looked good. The dwarf women just looked like large women, so ... not a great deal of effort there.

Acting: 12/10
They were all acting their socks off and taking it very seriously. I haven't seen such earnest acting since that great film '500mph Storm'.

Plot: -3/10
Was there one? Of course there was one ... unfortunately, this was marketed as The Rings of Power and not How Sauron Was Done Wrong By Tolkien. Clearly written by revisionists and Morgoth apologists.
Also, Adar? I've written a better elf-turned-orc story than that! I do not understand why an evil sword is the only thing that opens a sluice gate. I do not understand the evil sword, frankly.
And ugh not-Gandalf ... clearly Tolkien was high when he imagined the wise Istari arriving by ship! Nay nay! Let us have none of that religious mission stuff. Let the Istar arrive by meteor, alert everyone to this event, and have them be a drooling simpleton for weeks, only to be schooled on free will by one of the sociopathic halfwits. That'll be much more betterer.
Celebrimbor was a huge disappointment in demeanour, look, age and casting. And apparently he is amazed by the idea of smelting! Merciful Valar! HOW was he the greatest Elven smith?

Writing/Dialogue: -5/10
The writers tried hard to emulate the wisdom and cadence of Tolkien, whilst having the range and depth of Jaqueline Wilson. The dialogue was unintentionally hilarious. As a comedy, it would score 9/10. My brother was endlessly entertained: "You know I love b-movies and people acting the hell outta their lines."
The halfwits, leaving people behind while chanting that nobody goes off trail or alone were a study in hypocrisy, though I did actually like the travelling song Poppy sang.
The Silmaril hidden in a tree, then struck by lightning ... creating mithril. And only mithril can save the elves? Just ...what? Do I need to get out a picket sign?
Galadriel's 'elf-witch' powers apparently don't kick in until she's older ... she has no idea Sauron is a wrong 'un after spending weeks with him. It was interesting to me that the writers thought they'd created a 'stoic' Galadriel, instead of an unfeeling selfish wretch who hasn't an ounce of empathy or humility - whether talking to elves, men or orcs! She's supposed to be some feted commander of armies (plural!), but her soldiers are useless and she has to cajole them on and beat their foes for them - singlehandedly! LOL! I will be fascinated to see how she learns how to speak to people without condescension. Or maybe I will get lucky and the world will end first.
I did quite enjoy having Sauron as a Yorkshireman, and we played the accents game at home, trying his lines as a Manc, Geordie, Scouse, Brummie ... and okay, there might have been some gin involved. Still. Amusing.

Music: ?
I cannot remember it. I think that speaks volumes.

Themes/Motifs: 2/10 for trying?
The 'map'/sigil Sauron burned onto Finrod was weird - like a murderer providing his postcode.
The whole revenge storyline was awful, Galadriel learned nothing on this journey except that she was right, and other people should listen to her more (thanks, 'Elrond' - what did you base that on?).
The magical sword key/dam/tunnels connection was too odd. There are not enough minutes in the day to type the questions I have about that.
The queen's suncrown was a weird thing to wear into a battle - dangerous, even. The whole Numenorean sunrise theme was heavy-handed ... though I have yet to see anything that tells me the Numenorean ship sails were insane, other than my eyes.

Do let me add a category.

Characters: 3/10
I'm going to tell you who I liked, because in a story, who you like and are rooting for is key.
Unfortunately the most truthful, likeable one was Sauron. Now doesn't that just tell you everything you need to know about the writers.
I also liked Elendil sometimes ... maybe 60% of the time.
Durin mostly, and Disa - except when they were ignoring their own advice.
And happy if I never see again? the halfwits; not-Gandalf; Galadriel; Isildur and his sister; Bronwyn, Theo and totally-not-his-dad elf; Adar; Queen Miriel.
The rest were just blah ...

@Lirimaer 12/10 for acting?? :O
Other than that point, I totally agree. It was a mindnumbing clusterf*** and I hope it dies the death it deserves :P Btw did anyone else pick up on Sauron's accent changing in the last episode? Like what, you are all of a sudden Boromir now? Sick of being Aragorn?

But, but ... they were acting so hard! Didn't you see the concentration? The effort? The over-enunciation of every word? It was very overdone.

12/10 is entirely accurate. It's not a good score.

Hmm.. ok

Aikári Salmarinian wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:47 pm On speaking volumes to echo Lirimaer, I have seen nothing of season 1 and if they will be on DVD I won't buy them to watch. That says as much.

I though this site would be above this sort of thing, but I see I was wrong. Oh well.

Hanasian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:33 am

Aikári Salmarinian wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:47 pm On speaking volumes to echo Lirimaer, I have seen nothing of season 1 and if they will be on DVD I won't buy them to watch. That says as much.

I though this site would be above this sort of thing, but I see I was wrong. Oh well.

Four things to keep in mind:
1. There’s the possibility of matters in real life that compel people to look for an effective escape. For example, if this series occurred during the time I was caring for a relative that was leaving I would heavily look at reviews. There are some who need to be supremely convinced to put forth the time to watch and look first at the reviews. This reflects itself in lit reviews as well. It also takes much less time to look and comment on said reviews.

2. I see no evidence that anyone is claiming to represent this site as a whole.

3. Keep in mind who created this tv series and how much money was used. These are not reviews towards a fan-made piece like “born of hope” (which I hear had positive reviews last I saw). A company placed an exorbitant amount of money to buy the rights to certain works and used an exorbitant amount of money to create said works. There is a clear financial motive for this adaptation and they get paid by people watching the series.

The more money one puts in to something for the public, the more criticism it will have. This is the case for other medium forms as well, such as lit reviews. The way to actually express displeasure in this instance would be not watching the tv series on Amazon.

4. … there hasn’t been what I consider an 8/10 review of season 1 on this site so I would expect people being deterred and pointing out such.

Hanasian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:33 am

Aikári Salmarinian wrote: ↑Sat Oct 29, 2022 11:47 pm On speaking volumes to echo Lirimaer, I have seen nothing of season 1 and if they will be on DVD I won't buy them to watch. That says as much.

I though this site would be above this sort of thing, but I see I was wrong. Oh well.

Above what sort of thing? Refusing to watch it? Stating that they refuse to watch it? Refusing to buy the dvds? Or echoing Lirimaer? I'm confuzzled. Though each single one of those are Aik's opinions and she has the right to each of them, something we highly encourage here on this site, as long it is repectful and doesn't break any rules :)

Now I do believe one cannot have an opinion without having watched them, but it is still their right not to. I won't be watching season 2, if it is even made, that's for dang sure :P And if anything it proves that just because you chucked a lot of money at it doesn't make it good. Better writers would have made this good, they werent and it isnt. My opinion ;)

Rivvy Elf wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:16 pm
A company placed an exorbitant amount of money to buy the rights to certain works and used an exorbitant amount of money to create said works.

My brother is firmly of the opinion that this was a money-laundering scheme in which much money was squirrelled away out of sight, since it clearly wasn't spent on the series. (He says the same about the F&F franchise, although I enjoy that trash.) Though I have to say, I would be interested to see the receipts for this one.

@Hanasian I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I have honestly been surprised by the glut of tolerant support for this show, considering their vast, sweeping changes and disregard of the lore and timeline - especially since the vitriol levelled at PJ back in the day was terrible (some of it deserved, admittedly). Maybe people have mellowed in their old age, or maybe they just don't care about fictional lore quite as much. Very wise of them, if so.

Clearly, when people watch this show, the mileage of fan and critic may vary wildly.

Hanasian wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:33 am I though this site would be above this sort of thing, but I see I was wrong. Oh well.

I admit to being surprised by how much Season 1 seems to be disliked here, but that's only because I think my opinions are closer to yours. Back in the day, I would have given the first Hobbit movie a 6/10 (and they only got worse from there). I actually liked Season 1 of RoP a bit more and would put it in that 6.5 to 7.0/10 range (I believe it's a 6.8 rating on IMDB).

But it just shows that all art is subjective. I disagree with many of @Lirimaer's points, but I haven't gotten the impression from Liri (or anyone else here) that I'm somehow an "inferior" fan because I happened to like the show (for the most part) so far. There are some pretty large warts that I hope get removed in future seasons (writers! writers! writers! ), but nothing in Season 1 convinces me they are capable of fixing the dialogue. It's a fool's hope, but hope, nonetheless.

Overall, I will debate anyone here who wants to, that it's clear Payne and McKay understand Tolkien far more than Peter Jackson did. I'll stand by that until the end of days. You don't have scenes with your characters discussing orc origins, or oaths and hope, the perspectives of immortality vs. mortality, the orc trenches and devastation of the land above the trenches (in Episode 3), Celebrimbor saying why it was rings, because of the power of a "circular form." These are all present in Tolkien's books and I can continue. You can't have nods to the kinslaying of Alqualonde in Episode 1, or Halbrand advising Pharazon from within a jail cell in Episode 4, and still come away convincing me "these hacks never read/don't understand Tolkien." I think where it suffers the most though, is Jackson and his team knew how to write and create a far more compelling, captivating story to the screen. The Amazon team haven't convinced me they are capable of the same.

I also come at it from the perspective, I'm not spending any more than I already have been for years to watch a show inspired by Tolkien. So, I'm cutting it a fair bit of slack as just being a really expensive fan-fiction. I expected it to be visually stunning and wasn't disappointed. I feel it's only right to point that out in its favor. Someone else might feel for the amount of money spent, they expected it to look better, or it doesn't matter at all because they expected it to look good. It's not costing me anything extra, so as long as I'm not bored, I'm going to watch it. But, I have a hard time recommending people to buy a Prime account for the purpose of watching this series (which tells something about the quality). Where I think others come at it from a dislike towards Amazon/Jeff Bezos and therefor harsher critics. In a sense it better be as close to a flawless Tolkien adaptation as possible, or they're going to hate it. What get me though is, let us not pretend turning The Hobbit into a trilogy wasn't a money grab by Newline, or pretend they didn't spend an exorbitant amount of money on those films and it was a subpar product (at best). It tells me something else though, that Amazon spent more money and I managed to only like Season 1 a bit more than the first Hobbit movie. I guess where The Hobbit movies just went downhill from there, I'm hopeful RoP can get some flaws ironed out.

Winddancer wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:33 pm Above what sort of thing?

Bothering to post in a thread that is clearly about rating the actual show when it hasn't been watched. I get it. You think it's crap. I guess it has to be slagged in each and every thread about Rings of Power. I guess I expected more (un)common community courtesy here, and in general from people who say they love Tolkien. Like I said. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@Hanasian I think I see what you mean. I remember some of your posts in the past regarding people making hasty judgments regarding reveals without knowing the full context (watching the show). What are your thoughts on Tolkien’s commentaries on some of the major attempted adaptations that occurred of his work in his lifetime? They seem very critical to even minor details.

I for one haven’t put a rating here because… a certain husband of a certain character not showing up kinda ruined my suspension of disbelief, I did promise to continue watching once that person appears though, so I spent my time crafting my own tale while keeping in mind the themes @Boromir88 mentioned even in what seems to be a much darker setting of middle earth. I don’t regret it, and it has helped take my mind off my mother’s passing.

@Lirimaer I want to know how much they spent on prosthetic ears when, especially people with short hair, they could’ve chose actors whose ears naturally stuck out

@Hanasian EDIT: To such a degree that I can argue that Tolkien would NOT willingly watch adaptations that did not fit his standards(only out of obligation), and would still criticize it due to the script alone. We know this because he EVISCERATED Zimmerman.

"I should say Zimmerman, the constructor of this s-l, is quite incapable of excerpting or adapting the 'spoken words' of the book. He is hasty, insensitive, and impertinent." -Letter 210

"[...] and he has made no serious attempt to represent the heart of the tale adequately: the journey of the Ringbearers. The last and most important part of this has, and it is not too strong a word, simply been murdered." -Letter 210

Tolkien used Ad-Hominem attacks to criticize a person solely for their attempt at doing an adaptation of his work. He took adaptations of his work very seriously to such a degree that he would use the word "murdered," and explicitly say it's not an exaggeration to describe changes that he was not pleased with.

His criticisms makes @Lirimaer's seem like a tap on the head. Tolkien's condemnations are like Grond in language and content. He is nasty like a mother bear in that letter, but since he's a professor, the words are not coarse, but cut through like Yang Zhi's blade that would kill without any blood appearing on it.

@Hanasian I do agree there, that one should at least watch it to be able to review it and if not, well then you don't really have an opinion to share and probably shouldn't post in a thread where it is about rating it.

I however disagree with the slagging part. My opinion and my rating (which is 2/10) is just as valid as anyone elses and in every thread. Unless the thread says "For RoP lovers to post their love" then I expect everyone to be able to voice their negativity, if that is how they feel. This isn't Amazon where we remove negative comments. Also, where you see slagging, I see honesty about a series that seriously lacked in every way possible.

I want to explicitly note that, unlike J.R.R Tolkien, who specifically and explicitly insulted the character of Zimmerman, one of the people who attempted to adapt his work, that none of us have gone into any specific ad-hominem attacks on specific people who worked on the show. I think it rather... unwise to expect kind words from people who disliked the show because if J.R.R Tolkien were alive today, history says that the lack of including... a certain character with a big relationship towards one of the main characters... would have him saying that, and specifically pointing out that he's not exaggerating, that they "murdered" the relationship between two of those characters.

And we know this because this happened before, with Letter 210. History would repeat itself. Pretty sure Tolkien would get cancelled if he were to speak his full opinions.

So I find even the most blunt of the criticisms in this thread to actually be tame compared to how J.R.R Tolkien would've eviscerated the works.

I would be right there behind him! :P But I honestly dont mind the change in lore (didnt care in the LOTR movie changes either, other than what they did to Faramir, for shame..) though I did find it odd Celeborn was left out in the manner they did. Seems so lame to have a need to make her "single" so she can flirt with Sauron. Blargh. To me the biggest offense is how they changed the personality of established characters. Galadriel was nothing more than a stubborn femal dog. That angry face, man I just cannot stand looking at her anymore, with that disgusted snarl she gives everyone and the I am better than you attitude. Now if she was playing WD? Damn, I would think she had nailed it! Especially walking right past the guy on fire and leaving the whole pyroclastic destroyed village to help themselves! Ok dont get me going, I can rant for hours :P

Winddancer wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:01 am @Hanasian I do agree there, that one should at least watch it to be able to review it and if not, well then you don't really have an opinion to share and probably shouldn't post in a thread where it is about rating it.

I however disagree with the slagging part. My opinion and my rating (which is 2/10) is just as valid as anyone elses and in every thread. Unless the thread says "For RoP lovers to post their love" then I expect everyone to be able to voice their negativity, if that is how they feel. This isn't Amazon where we remove negative comments. Also, where you see slagging, I see honesty about a series that seriously lacked in every way possible.

I originally quoted someone posting here who expressly said they would not ever watch Rings of Power. Ok, cool but why post that in a thread about rating the show. My 'you think it's crap' line was rhetorical and not pointed at any one individual but broadly to those who hate the show and haven't even watched it and find a need to post about it at what seems to me at every opportunity. I'm all for seeing ratings of 'F', or 0/10 across the board or 0/1 with some reasoning written about the rating. My 'slagging' comment is repeated dropping of it in each and every thread about the show. This thread, I assumed that people who watched it would give honest reviews, good, bad, or indifferent.

Rivvy Elf wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 6:45 am
@Lirimaer I want to know how much they spent on prosthetic ears when, especially people with short hair, they could’ve chose actors whose ears naturally stuck out

Haha. The ears were so small an annoyance they really didn't register on my trigger list, but I would enjoy seeing such a casting notice, and the subsequent auditions. Back in the day, I would have suggested a young Joe Flanigan ... he comes with his own pointy ears. I'd say he was too old to play an elf now, but looking at Celebrimbor, maybe not.

Boromir88 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:07 am...Celebrimbor saying why it was rings, because of the power of a "circular form." These are all present in Tolkien's books...

Was it? I don't recall the "circular form" thing from the books, and I'm not seeing any relevant results in Unfinished Tales after a quick ctrl-f search for "circular" and "circle." Do you recall where it might be? I'd love to reread it in context to refresh my memory, and to see if it's any less ridiculous than I found the discussion of circular metal objects in ROP.

Boromir88 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:07 amYou can't have nods to the kinslaying of Alqualonde in Episode 1 [...] and still come away convincing me "these hacks never read/don't understand Tolkien."

I'm with you insofar as I think the showrunners have clearly read the books and grasp the basics of them, but I'm actually less confident saying more than that than I was before watching S1. The most egregious, though fairly inconsequential, example is that McPayne, based on their own comments in interviews, seem to genuinely not understand how stars work in Arda, which of course is supposed to be our world. There are also some edge cases where I'm not sure if they realize they made a change. For example, in the books, Elves in Middle-earth are doomed to one day, long after LOTR, experience bodily fading as their fëar (souls) "consume"—Tolkien's word—their hröar (bodies). In ROP, Elvish fading is about how their "immortal souls [will] diminish into nothing," which is the opposite of Tolkien's metaphysical conception of Elvish souls being too powerful for their bodies. I have no doubt the showrunners understood they were making a change by accelerating the timeframe of fading, but was changing the metaphysical nature of it a deliberate choice or a misunderstanding? I don't know, but it's not implausible to me that they just didn't grasp this part of Middle-earth philosophy.

Granted, I don't mean to suggest that esoterica of this degree is really all that important, but that's not the limit of what gives me pause. I appreciate you mentioning the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, as I'm sure plenty of people, like both of us, thought of that when they saw Galadriel's swan-like boat get smashed in the prologue. I'll agree that was a nice little reference. But does it outweigh the fact that the actual Kinslaying was elided? It's not just that they skimmed over it, the entire nature of the Noldor's departure from Valinor is fundamentally different from the books, and I'm not sure the writers grasp how important a change that is. The show!Noldor are depicted as heroes on a mission to save Middle-earth from the threat of Morgoth, with no mention of the extensive dark side of their rebellion. After the premiere, some people I spoke with expected the show to later reveal what "really" happened. Maybe that will be the case in a future season, but S1 gave no indication the prologue was inaccurate here. And sure, Galadriel is a biased narrator, but are we really meant to look at the shot of a massive fleet of Elvish ships sailing into the sunrise as the music soars triumphantly and assume Galadriel doesn't think the theft of those ships and the slaughter of her mother's people dims the glory and righteousness of the Exiles' cause?

Well ... maybe. I'm still kinda shook when I stop and think about what a dumpster fire of a person show!Galadriel is, with her crippling emotional issues, grating self-righteousness, misunderstanding of basic principles of social interaction, propensity for violence, and utter lack of self-awareness. Clearly, she is meant to be flawed, but is she meant to come across quite as badly as I and some—not all—other viewers perceived her? And let us not forget that arguably the highlight Elrond and Durin's friendship, their conversation about their fathers, came on the heels of Elrond lying through his teeth for an entire episode, being manipulative, and blaming Durin for having understandable emotions and not sharing all his private business with Elrond right away. Having seen the whole season, I'm pretty sure Elrond was not meant to come across as an asshole, but it was textbook emotionally abusive behavior: refusing to accept responsibility, blaming other people when they're upset, etc. He's either a bad person or badly written. Frankly, I hope it's the former. It's one thing for a story to feature a morally questionable antihero who is written with the intention of challenging the audience's instinct to side with the protagonist, and another thing altogether for a story to collapse under the weight of its own edginess, or founder on a shallow understanding of psychology, and fail to depict its heroes in as sympathetic a light as intended.

This post ended up being much more ranty than I planned, so to end on a positive note, I will give ROP props for trying its hand at a repentant Sauron arc. Tolkien was quite clear (most explicitly in Myths Transformed) that Sauron's repentance in the early Second Age was genuine, though of course ROP's version differs in most of the specifics. I would certainly not have made the same creative choices as McPayne and co., but I'm grateful to the show for giving more oxygen to this idea. I just hope people don't write it off because the show did it.

@Eldy Dunami I'm not sure if there's any direct reference to Tolkien and the "circular form," I would say it's more of an implied theme. Since I remember several Ad Lore threads on the OP about the Rings of Power and the symbolism of circles.

In the geometric world circles are viewed as the most powerful shape in the world, because it's unending. There's no edges or joints that are welded together creating weak points. And there is plenty of circular symbolism in Tolkien's writings...the 7 circles of Gondolin and Minas Tirith, the Rings of Power, The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings are essentially "There and Back Again" stories. Tolkien in the Foreward to LOTR called the Scouring of the Shire an "essential part of the plot" because his characters needed to return home after being changed by their adventures on the road. Tolkien doesn't say it, but someone could say the Hobbits had to come full circle and return home.

And our own world symbolism of why rings are traditionally exchanged at weddings, and why it's rings Sauron gave as gifts. The circular ring symbolises an unbreakable oath/bond between two people "...from this day forward, until death do us part." Sauron creating rings and giving them as gifts is a perversion of a wedding vow, symbolised by gifting Rings. As the 9 Rings grant the Nazgul sort of a false immortality ("until death do us part" - the Nazgul are in this false immortality state where they're not living, but they're not dead either), they are bound to his power through the 9 rings that he possessed.

The interesting thing about the One Ring is it's a plain band of gold. Now as a piece of gold, there should be an attraction to it. Gold itself is a coveted metal through human history, even if there are rarer metals, we place higher value on gold because it's beautiful to look at. The same can be said about shapes. A shape can look to us more beautiful than others, and in design/architecture a circle can often appear to us as the most beautiful shape (no rough edges or sharp points; and unending and unbroken circle). When Frodo has the Ring in Bag End and can't throw it into his fire, his thought is that "it's perfectly round." So, it's more than being attracted by the gold, Frodo is attracted to its shape.

That's what I meant with my comment. Remembering OP threads on why they are "Rings" of Power and not say..."rods" like the "rods of the Five Wizards." A staff or crown has different symbolism to it than a Ring does. So, I think when Celebrimbor talks about the power and beauty of the circular form (and I admit I've only watched the season finale once, so I don't recall the specific quote...something like "unending, unbroken"), I think they are hitting on an important theme.

That's all I have time for at the moment, unfortunately I have to get to sleep a bit earlier than I did last night, but there are other points in your post I hopefully can get around to writing a reply.