Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

There is one exception that I... can't explain, and that is the feat in Two Towers in the warg skirmish where he hops on the horse in a really awkward angle. How do you do that?

Now initially I was of the majority that think that Legolas' athletic feats were just ugh. But then... after doing more research, I have made the conclusion that Legolas' athletic feats are actually very realistic for a Tolkien elf, and I would even argue an underestimation of what Tolkien Elves can do.

You see, Jackie Chan can do most of those stunts, including running vertically on walls, sliding down rails, sliding down stairs on a shield while feat, and other more impressive feats than movie Legolas. I bet he could even run on barely connected cardboard planks over water (Shaolin monks can do this). The main difference is that he makes it look real. It looks rough, it looks like something YOU DO NOT WANT to do at home. That's right, Jackie Chan would totally do that mumak-kill scene by Legolas single-handedly and probably would make it look more epic.

But Tolkien's elves... I believe they have a certain grace to them if memory serves. We know that book Legolas can walk on top of snow, so he can very easily master what we call Qinggong (not to be confused with Qigong), which is what Shaolin Masters and Jackie Chan master in order to do their feats. So I now find that Legolas' feats are underestimations of what he can do. We did not see him run on top of Helm's Deep walls, nor did we see him attempt to run across the Anduin's water to chase after Frodo and Sam.

The jarring thing about Legolas' feats isn't Legolas himself, it's because we don't see other elves do these feats. I'm talking about the Movie version of the Battle of Helm's Deep with the elves. It's a... thing where if you make it consistent it looks hokey/unbelievable, and if you make it inconsistent, it makes Legolas look hokey/unbelievable. Hence why I believe that if the elves were not included in Helm's Deep, there would be much less complaints on Legolas' athletic feats because he would be the only military elf we'd see on the screen.

So what are your thoughts? Do you think Jackie Chan could do all those feats (making it look more gritty) Legolas did in the movies? Are there examples in the Hobbit movies that would destroy my argument (I don't remember a lot about those films)? Am I crazy? Let's open the floor to opinions.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, they should've just used Jackie Chan as Legolas and saved a bit more money on stunt double costs

But Legolas isn’t from idyllic England is he? Mirkwood is really far away. The more easy you go in Europe the more influence you have from the Mongols and the Middle East, and beyond that, East asia.

In fact the birthplace of elves was not in eriador but 250 miles from the sea of rhun, which is known as Easterling territory

From a practical standpoint, Jackie Chan would have been great as Legolas, the films would have had a much more physical presence other than whacking at each other with sharp, heavy objects. My only alarm bell is how would Peter Jackson integrate his Asian-ness without plumbing the depths of stereotype and caricature.

I would argue that Bruce Lee would have been a truly epic Legolas in that regards.

I'm just thinking of Tony Jaa, Jet Li and Donnie Yen for different elves (I personally Tony Jaa with Jet Li as Legolas and Thranduil would be pretty freaking epic)

Rivvy Elf wrote: ↑Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:44 pm

The jarring thing about Legolas' feats isn't Legolas himself, it's because we don't see other elves do these feats. I'm talking about the Movie version of the Battle of Helm's Deep with the elves. It's a... thing where if you make it consistent it looks hokey/unbelievable, and if you make it inconsistent, it makes Legolas look hokey/unbelievable. Hence why I believe that if the elves were not included in Helm's Deep, there would be much less complaints on Legolas' athletic feats because he would be the only military elf we'd see on the screen.

I think this is it. He’s the only Elf who really gets involved, and you don’t see Gimli, the other non-human, visually signalled as tougher and sturdier than humans in the same way - for example, if they had put in scenes where Gimli shrugged off a load of rubble that fell on him, or was able to withstand many blows that would have killed a human, this would have highlighted: hey, these guys are not like humans. I guess it doesn’t help that Aragorn, the third Hunter, is also more resilient than the average human. To the men of Rohan, all three would have had really unnatural skills.

I would have enjoyed seeing Legolas run up a tree or something. The most unbelievable bit in the Hobbit films for me is when Legolas springs over falling masonry and uses it to propel himself upwards but that is because it looks SO like a computer game that I was practically hearing Mario noises as he leapt.

@Carmilla Was Better Your point on the fear of PJ catering towards stereotypes is quite apt, and the first thing I thought about were the lines already given to Legolas in the movies. So I'm going to analyze each line and see if they have any cultural bias that would be considered "Chinese," because the Asian population... is pretty much over 50% of the world and has a lot of different races, and whether that's actually a negative thing:

"This is no mere Ranger. He is Aragorn, son of Arathorn. You owe him your allegiance."

Valuing bloodlines is a Chinese historical thing too (see Romance of the Three Kingdom's Liu Bei), but it's not exclusive to China and is very prevalent.

"And heir to the throne of Gondor."

Ditto.

"Have you heard nothing Lord Elrond has said? The ring must be destroyed."

Deference to authority... but ditto.

"And you have my bow."

Ditto. I see phrases like these in both cultures.

"Crebain from Dunland!"

No issues with any mispronunciation here because really a massive LOTR fan would only care for being able to understand this line.

"There is a fell voice in the air."

"Goblins!"

"We must move on, we cannot linger."

"Orcs!"

"A lament for Gandalf..."

These all are lines fit for a person more action-oriented than verbally oriented. If you replaced Legolas with a Pikachu saying "pika pika" in different appropriate tones, nothing would be lost here. That's not insulting the lines here, that's more of an exaggeration on how uhh non-important Legolas' exact words are.

"I have not the heart to tell you. For me, the grief is still too near. Boromir is sitting alone...Aragorn approaches him."

These are lines that requires actual acting to make it sound good. Did you know that in old-school traditional China, family members generally had to grieve for their family members for three years, and could not go to any parties, celebrations, or any general fun activities? Again, though, grief is not exclusive to China so no negative stereotypes here.

"We should leave now."

"It is not the Eastern shore that worries me. A shadow and a threat has been growing in my mind. Something draws near, I can feel it."

Nothing really difficult to analyze here.

"The horn of Gondor!"

"If we are quick, we will catch Frodo and Sam before nightfall."

"You mean not to follow them..."

Yeah these are all the lines from Fellowship of the Ring. So overall, these are the lines of somebody that doesn't really need to be a Thespian; these are the lines of someone who's actions should speak louder than their words. The words don't really scream out stereotype here, though for some reason these lines seem to fit a mysterious minority warrior like a Native American in a Western to me, which one could justify as Legolas is not from mainstream human civilization in Middle-Earth.

@Fuin Elda Bruce Lee, Tony Jaa, Jet Li, and Donnie Yen can deliver these lines and nobody would really care about possible mispronunciations because people will focus on their actions and body language. Since Legolas is not human, leeway shall be given.

@Silky Gooseness Yup. Gimli should've been the Tank of the team. Moria should've been where a mountain of rubble falls on top of Gimli and Gimli bursts out of the rubble with only scratches proclaiming stuff about Baruk Khazad and other stuff. Ditto with Helm's Deep. It also boggles my mind why they didn't have Legolas run up a tree. Running up walls is something human beings can do so therefore elves can do it even better.

It was not so much Legolas' athleticism that boggled the mind, as the shoddy CGI which gave him no weight as he did so, making it look extremely unreal. LotR's poor showing was nothing to the OTT CGI feats in TH, however, so I probably shouldn't complain.

I will though, because I really don't think we needed the showy gymnastic element at all. I would have been quite happy with faster, stronger, more-deadly-than-men elves. The subtle reveal of the Lorien elves was enough to show superhuman stealth, for example. I like subtle.

@Lirimaer I like subtle too.

Legolas is not subtle.

I'll assume you didn't really like book Legolas, since he's as subtle as a dwarf in a hobbit convention even among elves. Tolkien goes out of his way to label him as strange in our first impression of him, as Frodo's labels him as a "strange elf." Considering Frodo conversed with peeps like GIldor earlier in the book, this description is striking and must be paid attention to. Thus, my interpretation is different than @Aikári Salmarinian's, in that Legolas MUST look and act differently amongst even elves. Hence why the more I think about it, this provides plausible reasoning to have a non-Western European martial artist play as Legolas. This is supported by Tolkien's description of Leggy in the Book of Lost Tales:

"He was tall as a young tree, lithe, immensely strong, able swiftly to draw a great war-bow and shoot down a Nazgûl, endowed with the tremendous vitality of Elvish bodies, so hard and resistant to hurt that he went only in light shoes over rock or through snow, the most tireless of all the fellowship."

I highlighted and bolded the "lithe" part because the first image I have of this description would be a tall Shaolin monk, who is able to display all those traits, particularly the surprising strength part because they are trained to master different weapons, and are trained to be strong while not looking bulky. Oh, btw, Jackie Chan fits that description except for the height but that can be disguised in film.

@Rivvy Elf HAha ... okay, I am not willing to fight with you over this. If you want shaolin monk Legolas, go for it.

I love book Legolas. I think he was deliberately subtle in that he submitted to Aragorn's leadership and rarely put himself forward at all. We rarely find him drawing attention to himself. Film Legolas is not subtle at all. Film Legolas is a showgirl! La!

And I do read 'a strange elf clad in green and brown' as different from the elves in Rivendell and Lorien. Not sparkly vampire different, just markedly alien in his dress and his demeanour. The 'Strider among normal men' of the elf-world. He doesn't live in a place where a magic ring preserves the old ways and keeps dark things at bay. He's probably had to fight since he achieved his majority, so is thus unused to soft living and the comforts of the Last Homely House. He is a realist, and a defender of his realm - his superior strength and lithe swiftness borne from constant experience and hard work, not merely the results of a hardy heritage. [ETA: And his clothes - suitable for travel, movement and fighting, in natural colours for camouflage. Unlike the swishy formal dress of the elves living in comfort and hosting a great many visitors from distant lands.]

Supposedly accurate maps I have seen of M-e overlaying the real world don't really venture much into Russia, with Eastern Europe being the limit of their scope and generally plonking the Greenwood somewhere around Germany/Poland/Czechia/Lithuania/Baltic Sea and the Sea of Rhun in Ukraine/Romania - not even reaching as far east as the Urals. 250 miles might be a long way if you're walking, but it's not a great distance when measured on our continents.

But hey, enjoy your thought experiment.

@Lirimaer I think you think you're rebuffing my statements, but most of what you said actually supports my arguments for a Shaolin monk Legolas, particularly your paragraph describing his lifestyle. There’s a lot more to monks than appearances. So worry not, you're not fighting with me over this.

"I think he was deliberately subtle in that he submitted to Aragorn's leadership and rarely put himself forward at all. We rarely find him drawing attention to himself."

Those are the qualities of martial artists, deference and humility.

But... I wouldn't use the word rarely because I can think of 2 instances where he draws attention to himself in the books. The snow bit, where he explicitly points out his snow-walking abilities, for one. If Tolkien wanted him to show humility, Aragorn would've explained it, not Legolas. The second is the casualty count competition with Gimli.

I'll counter that for "a strange elf clad in green and brown," if the focus was more on the dress, it would've been "an elf strangely clad in green and brown." Since the viewpoint is Frodo's viewpoint, we have to consider what elves he met before. The big one was Gildor Inglorion, who lived a really hard life since he was from the House of Finrod. Gildor is the "Strider among normal elves" in this instance because he's one of the few exiles still on Middle-Earth. But why would Frodo find Legolas strange if he already met an older version of someone who suffered hardship? I believe Gildor was part of the wandering company of elves as well so he was regularly on the move. I think that it depends on the interpretation of the reader and Tolkien left it vague for flexibility. That's what I would do as a writer.

Do the maps account for that 250 mile detail that was from Nature of Middle-Earth? Because there's implications for fun things like continental drift due to War of Wrath/Numenor sinking or the land expanding since there was supposed to be the Orocarni mountains near Cuivenien. Also, do they use Beleriand and Valinor as frames of reference? There's a reason why I am skeptical, as you said, of "supposed accurate maps." I also find the idea of an idyllic England to not be tied to geographic location but more of an idea, making it less of an allegory on geography.

I focus more on language. Rhun pretty much means "East," Khand is not a Middle-Earth word at all, so the closest real-life thing would be a Khanate or Khaganate, which further shows that real life maps should be taken with a grain of salt. I think Tolkien was flexible in terms of geography here too... or at the very least, inconsistent.

@Aikári Salmarinian

But at the end of the day (... and even the beginning of the day), no matter what the influences were, Tolkien's elves, even during his earliest conception of his universe, were not exclusive to Western European cultures. The main issue that I see is that many Tolkien fans are using a mortal's bias and a geographic bias rather than looking it from the viewpoint of an elf. Here's the logical assumptions that I see from a lot of Tolkien's fans who were... for example, displeased with the casting of a certain elf in Rings of Power:

The first logical assumption makes sense: If the People of the West represent a mythological Europe and Men's language and culture were influenced by elves, then therefore the casting of actors of the race of men for any adaptation should cater towards people of European descent.

The second logical assumption, however, does not logically make sense: Because the People of the West represents a mythological Europe and Men/Hobbits' language and culture were influenced by elves, then therefore the Elves of the West are exclusive to Europe, and any casting of actor's for elves should cater towards people of European descent.

The second logical assumption does not make sense, but is widely believed by a lot of Tolkien fans. I believed in the second logical assumption for the longest time because of my mortal bias and from my viewings of the movies. The thing is, is that Elves have much less generations than us, so even from a genetic viewpoint there should not be enough generations of elves, who migrated to the West, to conclusively say that "Elves should look like 'this' because they are from this region of the world," unless one argues that all Elves looked generally the same when they were created.

Please give me evidence to that if the last part of the prior paragraph exists, that would torpedo a lot of my argument.

Here is my evidence, from early Tolkien to late Tolkien that Elves are not exclusive at all to Europe (or Asia/Africa for that matter). Let's start with the Ambarkanta maps:



This map was created before LOTR in the 1930s, I believe, when most likely the Scandinavian and Celtic mythologies would have had its most influence. Now, based on that tidbit, Kuivienen (Cuivienen), the birthplace of the Elves should be somewhere a bit West or North in this world unmarred by war, right?

No, the birthplace of the Elves (Kuivienen) is not in the West, nor is it in the far East, nor is it in the Northland or Southland. It's not even in the Midland proper, as its sandwiched somewhere between the Northland and the Midland. Even during the primordial days of Tolkien's mythology, with this primordial, optimal map unmarred by Wars of the Powers, he never geographically associated Western Europe as the birthplace of the Elves. If anything, he associated the Elves with the Middle East. Perhaps this was due to his Catholic influence? But if that was the case, why do Men originate in the Far East and not in the Middle East? Hildorien was the birthplace of Men in the Book of Lost Tales.

Now, let's take a look at Arda Marred, from the Ambarkanta:



Cuivienen is not marked, but for consistency's sake, let's place it to the east of that big inland sea called... the Inland Sea. Here's implications that could explain why Tolkien later had the miles for the birthplace of the Elves to not be as East as one would've thought. Keeping in mind the curvature of the map (I think Middle-Earth is still flat here), the land east of the Orocarni Mountains has expanded quite a bit. But even with that... the birthplace of the elves is still located in the Middle East, I would argue. I will assume that Hildorien always borders the Eastern Sea so the birthplace of Men is further east now.

These were early sketches because there are no Misty Mountains old. So the argument for Elves now is that they should not be exclusive to Western Europe because they did not originate in the west.

The counterargument against me would be that quite a bit of the Elves migrated to the West and had generations of children there, but that argument in terms of affecting appearance is a biased one, because we live only 100 years. Elves live far longer. That is where the Nature of Middle Earth comes in and clarifies stuff like when Elves want to have children, how long childhoods are, and how many generations they had before a bit of the population went West. I will not go into the math of this (... but I will if you don't believe me), but at the time of the Third Age, not a lot of generations of Elves have occurred. This is also due to diminishing children from prior generations, so the elves we would most likely see are from prior generations. So genetic stuff didn't have enough time to create solidifications of "races," only mental constructs in terms of geography and the choice of whether they went West and how far they went West.

Legolas' grandfather, Oropher, was an elf under Thingol's dominion, and Thingol was born in Cuivienen. If we assume that Oropher's parents or grandparents were from Cuivienen, Legolas is only 3-4 generations (if I'm counting correctly) from the Cuivienen Elves, who would have lived in the Middle Eastern part of the world.

Okay, I feel like I wrote enough on this for you to infer my arguments that you can have Jackie Chan or a Shaolin Monk play Legolas (with a wig if we're going with long hair), because the Elves of the West are not exclusive to Western European Mythology. Like, subscribe, comment, etc.

Now, I'm a bit unsure about the extent to which my post can actually contribute something to the topic, since it feels like almost everything has already been said about it. However, I find this topic very interesting and as a Lord of the Rings fan who first saw the films before reading the books, I have to say that I gave it a lot of thought. Accordingly, here is my opinion

I find the consideration that Legolas (as well as other elves who have decided to devote themselves to the art of war) come very close to the Shaolin... With one huge difference... Legolas is probably around 3K years old!

Now if you consider that a Shaolin who has the lifespan of a human manages to develop near-superhuman abilities or near-superpowers, what could an elf learn in 3K years? In addition, elves do not get sick and also have other physical advantages. Who would possibly surpass a Shaolin? If we drifted off into fiction, there might be a Batman who's considered a superhero, even though he doesn't have any superpowers, just pure discipline and willpower.

So in summary I say that it is more than realistic that the Legolas from the books could match the one from the movies. Or what do you think a Shaolin monk would be capable of if he didn't age, got sick and is already 3000 years old?