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Guardian of the Golden Wood
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This thread is for the Undertowers folk to update one another on the really BIG news from the wide world in the east and south beyond our borders. Outsiders are welcome to post here, so long as they follow the Undertowers code of conduct (currently in minion-composition stage).

We begin with an exciting Lore-watch update. @Priya (tribute rank: Melian) promises the most exciting house-tour since we reconstructed the adventures of Goldilocks and the three Beorns sometime in the last age of the world.
Priya wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:30 am Some Needed Direction
The answer is intriguing. It stems from a deduction that Bombadil’s front door faced ‘west’: the direction for the receipt of ‘good news’. A clue which leads to exposing a fascinating matter. With that, for the first time since Karen Fonstad’s effort in The Atlas of Middle-earth – we are going to take a detailed look at the shape of Tom and Goldberry’s house!
Priya, posting in Lore can be frustrating because the comments on a post that embodies the dedicated research of hours, days, weeks, and months can seem to slip by with hardly a notice. But please know that (most of) your posts are read and appreciated by members who do not comment in Lore (such as myself). I honestly cannot think of anything I would rather know the shape of than the inside of the house shared by Tom and Goldberry!

PS. On the west wind, I recall that it is a wind from the west that blows away the shadow of Saruman after Wormtongue cuts his throat. Possibly the west wind blows also after the Ring goes in the fire?
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Guardian of the Golden Wood
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By the way, @Priya, recalling your most excellent posts on the Carrock, I thought you might be interested in Carrock Fell in the English Lake District. This iron-age hill-fort was excavated by Tolkien's one-time Pembroke colleague, R. Collingwood - his report is here. The report is from 1937, so after The Hobbit was composed. And from a first read there is nothing about the place to connect with Beorn's Carrock, and so no challenge here to your Lorelei Rock. But I'm curious if you think there might be any connection?
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Istari Sage
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Is there a lore boycott or something? I find it incredibly confusing that we would discuss one thread in a totally different thread than the original one and I’m not really sure what value that adds to the discussion. Obviously everyone is welcome to do as they wish I just being honest that I don’t really understand. If I was to comment on the Goldberry thread — which by the way has been fascinating but I haven’t been able to finish it yet — when would I comment here versus there?

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Romeran wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 2:34 am Is there a lore boycott or something? I find it incredibly confusing that we would discuss one thread in a totally different thread than the original one and I’m not really sure what value that adds to the discussion. Obviously everyone is welcome to do as they wish I just being honest that I don’t really understand. If I was to comment on the Goldberry thread — which by the way has been fascinating but I haven’t been able to finish it yet — when would I comment here versus there?
Hi Romeran, may I politely request that you only comment here if you wish to do the Undertowers Thing? So for your questions, I direct you to the Admins and the halfir archive thread, where these issues have already been hashed out. If you really wish for an Undertowers answer, the right place to go is the ruins on the hill that is not Cerin Amroth, where the Wāt-Fairy answers all worthwhile Undertowers questions.
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Guardian of the Golden Wood
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Hi Priya. @Romeran's question prompts me to make a delicate request. But first of all, may I say to all (Hobbits and Librarian) and sundry (admins, old and new), but most of all to you, Priya, that while any contributions by you in the Undertowers Thing would be welcome, the research that you post clearly and obviously belongs in Lore. Your posts are at present the great adornment of the Lore forum, which would be bare and naked without them.

I myself have stopped posting in the Lore forum, which I have come to recognize cannot at present serve my requirements for free and open discussion of those themes that are clearly at the heart of Tolkien's imagination. This is not so much a criticism of Lore (although imo Lore on the nuplaza has been, on the whole, utter goblin-shire) as a recognition of the current state of the world. Posting in Undertowers, a semi-autonomous zone of the Shire, allows us a secluded spot out of the limelight where we may feel our way around how to negotiate the kind of conversations that we wish to have, and how to have them. And this I would like now to attempt.
Priya wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2024 2:30 am In contrast, the East Wind was not anywhere as kind. In Christianity, it was a fierce east wind which brought devastation and destruction to mankind. Two well-known examples are:

“Moses calls upon the east wind to bring a plague of locusts.”.
 - The Bible, Exodus 10:13-19

“It was the east wind which blasted the grain in Pharaoh’s dream.” – The Bible, Genesis 41:6
Priya, I am speaking out of my own feelings and level of comfort, and do not wish to change how you speak otherwise. Technically, the above is 100% correct because Genesis and Exodus are indeed a part of the Christian Bible. But these two biblical books are from the Hebrew Scriptures, and to someone who is not a Christian it is irksome to see them 'appropriated' without a second thought.

For myself, as in how I speak without thinking, I naturally distinguish between Old Testament and New Testament, as the two parts of the Bible. But this is because I was raised in an Anglican country. When I use these terms with my family, here in Israel, they raise their eyebrows. To them the Bible is only the Old Testament.

I don't know what the 'correct' terminology is supposed to be. I have a sense that they talk these days of the 'Abrahamic religions'. For myself I'd be OK if you only underlined Old Testament if that is where you are pointing. Also, so far as I can make out, the Old Testament/New Testament division is actually vital to how Tolkien's sees the world.

I do hope I have made my point without in any way giving offence! And I'd be happy to discuss any aspect of this further if you wish.
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Guardian of the Golden Wood
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A second plaza-watch update in one day!
Ephtariat wrote: Thu Mar 07, 2024 12:15 pm My proposed thesis is titled "Giant’s Daughter, Fairy Mistress, Reverse Orpheus: Folktale Types and Motifs in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and the Tale of Beren and Lúthien".
I would like to hear more of the Giant's daughter, and even more of the Fairy mistress, but what in this world or out of it is a Reverse Orpheus?
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Newborn of Lothlorien
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Thanks, @Hill, you gave me a good-hearted laugh! I'll get back to you in a moment!

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I am going to explain these types by quoting Kittredge, Tolkien's source.
I. The Fairy Mistress. — An immortal woman, a fee, resident in the land of joy and perpetual youth (which is conceived as an island or an underground realm or as somehow separated from this world by a river or the sea), is enamored of a mortal here and summons him to her presence. The messenger may be an attendant nymph or an animal. In the latter case, the animal is not an ordinary beast but a magical creature in the service of the fee, and may even be a transformed fairy maiden. Thus, in a familiar variety of the type, the hero is hunting and pursues a white doe or a great boar, which conducts him to the presence of his expectant mistress. Sometimes the fee goes in person to summon her favorite to the other world, or the animal is the fee herself in a temporary disguise. It may suffice for the hero to go to the fee's land; or he may be forced to prove his worthiness by performing tasks or overcoming obstacles before he wins her. These terms may appear to be quite wantonly imposed by the fee herself, but they are really conditions to which she is bound by the very quality of her divine nature. The hero may remain with the fee forever, but sometimes he returns to this world, homesick for the kindly race of men.
II. The Giant's Daughter. — A hero makes his way into the Other World and desires to marry the daughter of its ruler. The god is angry or reluctant, and wishes to destroy or eject the intruder. At best, he is under the necessity of testing the suitor's worthiness to become an immortal. In any case, he either tries to kill the aspirant (sometimes in single combat, often by trickery) or sets him dangerous or apparently impossible tasks. In these the hero is frequently helped by the daughter or by animals. In the end, the bride is won, for the god is either baffled and subdued or else he is satisfied to accept the hero as son-in-law. In a variety of this type, the hero runs away with the daughter and is pursued but makes good his escape, frequently by the aid of magic obstacles. Many tales of this type are frankly mythological. In many, however, the Other World is replaced (or represented) by the abode of a giant (ogre, ghoul, rakshasa), who is savage and malignant by nature but has a beautiful wife or daughter. There are tasks, as before, and helpful animals; or the lady assists the quester, since she has no fondness for her monstrous husband (or father) — none, at all events, that does not quickly evaporate under the charm of the hero's presence. When the giant has been killed and the lady won, the hero may continue to inhabit the giant's castle, or he may return to his native country, enriched with the spoils of victory. The original object of his quest may not have been to get a wife, but to steal some precious object like the Golden Fleece. In this case the lady is an additional prize which crowns the adventurer's felicity.
(Kittredge, A Study of Gawain and the Green Knight, 1916, pp. 231-233)
Kittredge argues that Sir Gawain and the Green Knight originates from merging two motifs: the Beheading Challenge and the Temptation. Both the Beheading Challenge and the Temptation originate from, or in connection with, the Giant's Daughter and the Fairy Mistress. So, even if Kittredge argues that SGGK is NOT a Fairy Mistress or a Giant's Daughter story, like Hulbert and Weston argued, nonetheless Kittredge must admit that the Fairy Mistress and the Giant's Daughter are both involved in the inspiration of the original tales behind SGGK. Indeed, the Temptation motif originates from merging Giant's Daughter and Fairy Mistress, Kittredge states.
Now, Tolkien and Gordon in their 1925 edition of SGGK tell the reader to read Kittredge for everything concerning source criticism of SGGK. So, Tolkien read Kittredge and agreed with him. My thesis is that he then merged the Giant's Daughter and the Fairy Mistress in his own way to compose the tale of Beren and Luthien. The Giant's Daughter has the preminence in the early conception, that of "The Tale of Tinuviel", where Beren is a Noldo, not a human. Then Beren becomes a Man and the Fairy Mistress gradually comes forward until in The Silmarillion the Giant's Daughter is just the way of connecting the Fairy Mistress to the rest of the story of the Silmarils. "The Tale of Tinuviel" gave much importance to animals, so much so that it could be read as a beast fable. Also, in "The Tale of Tinuviel" there was barely a mention of a prayer of Tinuviel to Mandos, in what was not the generally accepted tale among Elves, but just a version among many, and the prayer was not stated to be sung. So, clearly Tolkien already had in mind to merge his story with the additional "Orpheus" type, but had not properly done so yet. He would first conclusively do so in "The Sketch of the Mythology" (HoMe 4), where the prayer is a fact and is sung. Now, though, Tolkien did not merge his story with a simple Orpheus story, but with a Reverse Orpheus. It is Tolkien himself who says in a letter that Beren and Luthien is his "Orpheus story in reverse, highlighting Pity instead of inexorability". By reverse, then, he meant a happy ending version of the Orpheus story, but also a version of the story where his Orpheus, Luthien, is a woman.

Melian
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Hello Hill

It’s always a pleasure communicating with you - no matter the choice of forum. Although I must say that I do understand Romeran’s point of view. I am not at all perturbed by a lack of participation in the Lore forum because as you have indicated - many folk nevertheless take a look, and that is enough for me.

Yes, most definitely the West Wind plays its part in other arenas as you’ve pointed out. Some other examples of a beneficial West Wind in The Lord of the Rings include Treebeard’s song and Théoden’s renewal of vigor:

“When woodland halls are green and cool, and wind in the West, Come back to me!” 
– The Two Towers, Treebeard

“ ‘… But a west wind has shaken the boughs,’ ”.
 – The Two Towers, Helm’s Deep

But because my focus was Bombadil - I didn’t really want to expand such discussion much beyond the chapters in which he appears.


When it comes to ‘Carrock Fell’ - in my research I often run across similar evidence that seems plausible to link to Tolkien - but I usually use Jason Fisher’s advice in Tolkien and the Study of his Sources - to disregard stuff that doesn’t fit his criteria - the right timeframe being one of them. So we could definitely reconsider ‘Carrock Fell’ if new linkage pops up that is prior to the early 1930’s.



As to the biblical quote business - although I’ve never stated it - there is a method to my madness.

As an order of priority for credibility, I usually like to cite publications which Tolkien directly quotes from. If I can’t find them - then I choose a publication that he owned or had been known to consult. Then I resort to favored authors followed by publications he might have known about which meet the right timeframe etc., etc.

Now as Tolkien was a Catholic Christian - we know he must have regularly used a Bible of that denomination. I just don’t know which. I have yet to obtain Oronzo Cilli’s Tolkien’s Library; it might be in there.

So I prefer to try and best present my evidence as Tolkien might have seen it. My Bible quotes that you’ve highlighted are deliberately vague - because, as I stated, I just don’t have a definitive reference source. I might have said Catholic Bible - but from a quoting standpoint - that comes across as a bit weird don’t you think? In any case, when needed - New Testament/Old Testament as reference source quotes are entirely appropriate in my considered opinion.

By the way - we miss your presence in the Lore forum. I for one, valued your input, and encourage you to return.

Don’t let the bigots win. Fight the good fight with all your might. Tolkien would have approved - I’m sure!

Newborn of Lothlorien
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@Priya Tolkien was familiar with the King James Version, but as a Catholic child in the 1890s/1900s he was raised by reading the Challoner Bible. It's not in the first edition of Cilli's book, but he told me he added it to the second edition (he's a friend of mine).

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@Priya, thank you for your post, it is most appreciated.
@Ephtariat, I was about to mention you and I see you are here already. May I invite you also to contribute here to the question of the most helpful nomenclature?
@Saranna, are you aware of Oronzo Cilli’s 'Tolkien’s Library'? It is one of those supremely useful reference works. We cannot share these books online. But would it be possible to set up something in the Library so that people who wished to know, say, if a particular book is listed in Cilli's great list, might ask and others might answer?

On issues of canon. For myself, I am happy to have King James as the house English. I would request distinction between Old and New Testaments (the original languages of which are different). But I'd also point out that others may be more militant and less liberal. It is a thorny if entirely navigable path, I think. And I welcome continued discussion of *these* issues here, if people wish or feel it helpful.
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Newborn of Lothlorien
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@Hill What's the question of the most helpful nomenclature?

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Ephtariat wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2024 6:26 am @Hill What's the question of the most helpful nomenclature?
Well, what I am really asking is for sensitivity in reference. So a verse from Genesis, say, is at once a verse from the Hebrew Bible and a verse of the Christian Bible, the two Bibles are not the same, and their relationship looks different when viewed from either side.

Priya and myself both seem content to take as a starting point Tolkien's own faith and so attitude towards the Bible. But actually, thinking on it only for the first time, Tolkien's Catholicism is not going to make him a great fan of the King James translation, is it? But I digress... Obviously, I have zero problem with the idea that Tolkien's reading of the biblical book of Genesis was a Christian reading of a Christian Bible.

What I ask for is sensitivity to the historical fact that the texts in question were not originally part of the Christian Bible, and to some people today remain part of a different Bible.

Does this make sense? To my mind, adopting a nomenclature of Old and New Testaments is sufficient to draw the requisite distinction. But this is just me.
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@Hill perhaps you missed this comment of mine.
Tolkien was familiar with the King James Version, but as a Catholic child in the 1890s/1900s he was raised by reading the Challoner Bible. It's not in the first edition of Cilli's book, but he told me he added it to the second edition (he's a friend of mine).
I'm content with the Old Testament and New Testament nomenclature as well. By the way, it should be pointed out that it seems Tolkien didn't read Hebrew. When he participated to the compilation of the Jerusalem Bible, he translated Jonah from a French translation, not from Hebrew. Then again, perhaps by denying proficiency in Hebrew he meant he was not fluent in it, not that he altogether ignored it. In his Jonah, he does mention "esoteric" Jewish references to the city of Tarshish, that he could only find in Jewish commentaries, as far as I'm aware. And of course I wrote an article on the inspiration of the One Ring from Jewish and Arabian legends of Solomon's signet ring.

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There is a late letter (to a grandchild, I think) saying he has been studying Hebrew and how queer it is (or something on those lines). To be quite honest with you, I am pretty certain his Hebrew was better than mine! I never looked into this properly, but I have a sense that he delved into Hebrew around 1946 when inventing Adûnaic. Note that Jewish commentaries are not necessarily in Hebrew.

Good on the content on the nomenclature. @Silky Gooseness you and I have been here before (quite peacefully, I recall). Any input this time round would be as welcome as ever.
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Yes, we're on the same page, I think.

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Ephtariat wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2024 7:23 am
Tolkien was familiar with the King James Version, but as a Catholic child in the 1890s/1900s he was raised by reading the Challoner Bible.
You mean this?
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Newborn of Lothlorien
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Yes, it's Challoner's revision of the Douay-Rheims translation. For brevity, the Challoner Bible.
Last edited by Ephtariat on Fri Mar 08, 2024 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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By the way, I think he appreciated the KJV for historico-linguistic reasons, as the first modern English Bible. But he wouldn't certainly appreciate its Protestantism. Also, note that when he references Ephesians 6,12 in Letter 290, he quotes from the Jerusalem Bible ("sovereignties and powers"), not the KJV or the Challoner, that both have "principalities and powers". But of course the Jerusalem Bible was something he acquired later, not the Bible he grew up with.

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Well, let us split hairs. The first modern English translation predates the KJV (commissioned in 1604 and published in 1611).
The first complete Bible in English was published abroad, most likely in Antwerp, in 1535. Myles Coverdale (1488-1569), an Augustinian friar from Yorkshire educated at Cambridge, 'faithfully and truly translated [it] out of Douche [German] and Latin into English'. (From a google search)
So back in your Middle English day, a century and even more earlier, when they were getting going on writing English rather than Latin, how hot was the issue of translating the Bible? I never really got my head round John Wycliffe.

The Bible that Tolkien consults for his study of Beowulf is Jerome's Vulgate, the Latin Scriptures.
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Newborn of Lothlorien
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No, in Middle English there's Wyclif.

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But of course Wyclif's translation is problematic because he was considered a heretic. Normally in the Middle English period they read the Vulgate too.

Newborn of Lothlorien
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I see you edited the comment because you recalled Wyclif yourself too.

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The Gawain-Poet translates bits and pieces of the Bible too, but that can't be considered a full translation. He also interposes bits in Latin now and then. Same goes with Chaucer.

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Without discounting the great importance of a childhood Bible, one someone grows up with, one lesson from all this, I think, is that Tolkien's scholarship would have given him a sense of the Bible as a text of different languages.

Yes. I edited and added Wycliffe. I take your point that he was beyond the pale. But he also seems fascinating in showing some deep cultural changes bubbling away. I would guess that already in his day the very idea of translating the Latin Bible into English was a tricky one, liable to get one into hot water?
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Yes, in the Middle Ages the vernacular languages were thought to be inferior to Latin, that was kind of a holy language. Tolkien knew that very well when he called Quenya "Elven Latin" as opposed to Sindarin. In Italy Dante was thought as a daring author because he went as far as writing a "holy poem" in Italian: the Divine Comedy. The Gawain-Poet achieved something comparable in the North-West Midlands dialect of Middle English in which he wrote Pearl, Patience, and Cleanness, his straightforwardly religious poems. And of course Langland did the same with his Piers Plowman for his dialect. But modern English of course was chiefly influenced by the language of the Canterbury Tales, that for all the religiousness of the author and the pilgrimage setting are problematic to be considered as a sacred poem. They are inspired by Boccaccio rather than Dante.

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Tolkien titles his Dante lecture "A Neck Verse" because people sentenced to death who could recite the Miserere verses in Latin would get spared their neck. Such was the sacred power of Latin.

Melian
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Hello Ephtariat

Thank you for the info.

Do you know whether the Challoner Bible was in use at both the Oratory and King Edward’s?

I wonder if the same Bible was imposed for use across the board in Catholic Churches in England. Such that when Tolkien attended services at say St. Gregory’s, St. Aloysius, Corpus Christi etc. - the Bible in the pew was one he was intimately familiar with.

The first issue of Cilli’s book was avoided by me due to some negative sentiment from Hammond & Scull. But it seems like the second issue is much improved. So I’m going to have to open my purse soon and make a purchase !!!

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"The Challoner version, officially approved by the Church, remained the Bible of the majority of English-speaking Catholics well into the 20th century."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douay%E2% ... eims_Bible

I've been told by Jessica Yates from Oxford, who's personally in touch with the Tolkien family since last century, that Tolkien used the Challoner version. She didn't say anything about King Edward's or the Oratory specifically.

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I may have missed a reference in the posts above as I have caught up on them fairly rapidly just this minute; but am I right in supposing that Tolkien had some small input into the creation of the Jerusalem bible?

VIDEFrom Wikipedia

The Jerusalem Bible was the first widely-accepted Catholic English translation of the Bible since the Douay–Rheims Version of the 17th century. It has also been widely praised for an overall very high level of scholarship, and is widely admired and sometimes used by liberal and moderate Protestants.

I further seem to remember that whichever portion he wprked on, his sections of translation were not eventually used. Will check the Tolkien Gateway.
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Yes, here is their note:

J.R.R. Tolkien was among its contributors, as translator and lexicographer. The extent of Tolkien's contribution to the translation of this bible is uncertain, but he is thought to have worked on the books of Jonah and Job, and Tolkien's final draft of Jonah was heavily edited. [1] Although the translation of the book of Job was based on what Tolkien called a bad literal French version, his sense of rightness for this task led him to prepare himself learning a great amount of Hebrew.[2]
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@Hill re: online use of the Undertowers library;

When I was at The Library of Elrond I used to seek answers for inquirers from outside sources and paste them in (with attributions, details and acknowledgement of the sources) but was told I was working too hard. I have my own copies of various reference works on Tolkien including Cilli and would be all to happy to work from this virtual library I already love, bringing concrete knowledge and information to other scholars. As long as the small Hills keep bringing me tea (carrying it will be safe, encyclopaedic material will be on the ground floor with the dictionaries) :)
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@Saranna It is generally thought that Tolkien ended up translating only Jonah. Here's an article by Yannick Imbert on Tolkien's Jonah: https://hcommons.org/deposits/item/hc:39175/

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Yes, that's right @Ephtariat although I am not clear abouit whether the note in Tolkien Gateway that his work on Jonah was 'heavily edited' means that his work was re-edited by someone else? Have you any information about that? I would love to know more
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"Most famous of the translators who worked on the Jerusalem Bible, J. R. R. Tolkien also contributed the least text, the Book of Jonah. That the Oxford don, busy with his academic projects and his fictional writings, participated at all in the translation is a tribute to the remarkable editor of the Jerusalem Bible Fr Alexander Jones. While an early draft in Tolkien’s own typescript can be consulted at the Bodleian Library, Oxford, the published version of Jonah incorporates changes suggested by Jones and the other editors. (...)
Alexander Jones, the principal editor and translator of the English Jerusalem Bible, who signed his letters ‘Alex’ and was known to his family as ‘Alec’, was born in 1906 and lived to the age of sixtyfour. He was ordained in Rome in 1933, after studying at the Venerable English College, a Roman Catholic seminary founded in 1579. After a year of graduate studies at the Jesuit-run Pontifical Biblical Institute, which he found to be overly conservative in its approach to the Bible, he returned to England to teach Scripture at St Joseph’s College, the seminary of the Liverpool RC diocese, located at Upholland (helpfully explained on its letterhead to be near Wigan). His nephew, (later Sir) Anthony Kenny, who studied under him in that time, remembered him thus:
He was a witty and imaginative teacher, who entertained but also puzzled students who could not always tell when he was being serious. He worked hard to make us love the Bible: he firmly believed that Catholics should give it no less attention and respect than Protestants did. But he was also anxious that it should be interpreted as liberally as was consistent with the Catholic doctrines of inspiration and inerrancy. He strove, not always successfully, to show that the official Catholic expressions of these doctrines were compatible with a non-fundamentalist exposition of the Scriptures.
He published a number of volumes of Biblical study, directing his talents to popularization rather than original research. In 1947 he authored The Kingdom of Promise with Robert Dyson SJ the third volume in a series called Scripture Textbooks for Catholic Schools. A series of Old Testament-themed articles in the Catholic Gazette led to Unless Some Man Show Me in 1951. In 1963 Jones’ text-focused commentary The Gospel According to St Mark was released, followed in 1965 by The Gospel According to St Matthew.
According to his nephew, Jones’ academic heroes were the Dominican monks of the École biblique et archéologique française (EBAF) in Jerusalem, especially the school’s founder Marie-Joseph Lagrange. When the EBAF published the Bible de Jérusalem between 1948 and 1953 (in a single volume in 1955), Jones greeted it with admiration. He enthused in a letter to Tolkien:
[T]he new Bible de Jérusalem [is] the best Catholic edition of the Bible in the world and likely to remain so for years to come. The Introductions, Notes, system of cross-reference etc. represent the most up-to-date Catholic scholarship. I know from experience that it is useless to expect anything from Catholic England comparable to it – at least for the next twenty years at the very least.
Although he implies in the same letter that he has been approached by the EBAF and English publishers about undertaking the project of translating the BdJ into English, his nephew describes him as rather more proactive: ‘Even before the single volume French edition had appeared, he began to canvass the possibility of an English translation of the French Commentary. (...)
It must be emphasized because it has been often misreported that Tolkien in particular, although he learned some elementary Hebrew to consult the original text of Jonah, based his translation upon the French text. Jones defended this unorthodox plan in a letter to Tolkien dated 7 March 1957:
That a translator is at a disadvantage when he has no immediate contact with the originals is a sad truth and I do feel that I am asking too much of all the gallant co-operators. But these disadvantages are comfortably outweighed – or so it seems to me – by the difficulties of any other course. Thus, very few who read Hebrew can write English; of these, fewer still are Catholics; of these fewer few still fewer will attempt it – the Westminster Version from the originals is not nearly half-done (and never will be finished) after thirty years! Secondly, the work of translation from the Hebrew would have to be preceded by an enormous amount of textual criticism for which our few Catholic Scripture scholars in England have not the equipment (not having a theological university is an immense drawback – we are all hacks in seminaries). And so on. So don’t be discouraged. I’m sure it’s work very well worth while. As you know, we are not trying to oust any existing version; we just want to provide a good, reliable alternative. The ultimate issue is in God’s future.
(...) Tolkien’s draft translations of Jonah are preserved in manuscript and typescript in the Bodleian Library. A large amount of editorial intervention separates these from the final version printed in the Jerusalem Bible. Still, the changes were made in consultation with Tolkien, and the printed text represents his work. In the first instance, Alexander Jones offered criticism and suggestions, often highlighting where the French version had departed from the Hebrew, indicating that Tolkien was free to follow either. Later on, according to Anthony Kenny, the publishers engaged two literary editors, one for the Old Testament, and one for the New (the Old Testament editor, responsible for Jonah, was Alan Neame, a Roman Catholic novelist). These editors were in charge of improving and regularizing the style of the various contributions into a coherent whole. Jones later asked Tolkien to serve in a similar capacity, and mentions (in a letter dated 26 January 1957) that he had sent him a copy of the translation of Job. (What became of this we do not know.)
A certain number of key changes between Tolkien’s typescript in the Bodleian and the printed text are identifiable as part of the regularization of the Jerusalem Bible. For example, while Tolkien translated the French ‘Lève-toi’ in 1:2 and 3:2 as ‘Arise’, this common Hebrew imperative (qum) has been rendered ‘Up!’ throughout the Old Testament. Other changes eliminate excessive Gallicism: the beginning of Jonah’s psalm of salvation in 2:3 was originally translated, ‘Out of the affliction in which I was I called upon Yahweh’, an awkward formulation subsequently improved to ‘Out of my distress I called to Yahweh.’
Tolkien took special care over the name of the plant that shades Jonah in chapter 4, copying out the entry for ‘castor’ in the OED, exchanging notes with Jones on the subject, and ultimately opting for ‘colocynth’. Nevertheless, the reviser replaced this word with ‘castor oil plant’.
Although Tolkien translated Jonah’s psalm (2:3-10) into stanzas, dividing the verses into three to five lines, he did not attempt any poetic embellishment even as slight as in his earlier effort with Isaiah. The line division appears intended to indicate pauses in speaking aloud, and does not follow any syntactic or metrical structure. Indeed, there is nothing especially distinctive about the translation as a whole, and one would be hard pressed to link it to the author of The Lord of the Rings or the verse translator of Gawain and the Green Knight.
(https://www.jstor.org/stable/48616119)

Guardian of the Golden Wood
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Ephtariat wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 4:14 pm Although Tolkien translated Jonah’s psalm (2:3-10) into stanzas, dividing the verses into three to five lines, he did not attempt any poetic embellishment even as slight as in his earlier effort with Isaiah.
What is this earlier effort with Isaiah?
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Newborn of Lothlorien
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From the beginning, Jones offered The Book of Jonah to Tolkien, although he intended and hoped that Tolkien would go on to translate many of the historical books of the Old Testament, especially Joshua. Before turning to Jonah, however, Tolkien offered a sample translation, choosing the first chapter of Isaiah. He opens Isaiah’s prophecy with stark alliteration, the poetic form dearest to him, but afterwards quickly grows more prosaic, perhaps out of respect for the sacred text:
Heavens hearken, earth give ear, for Jahveh speaks: “I have brought up sons and caused them to grow, but they have rebelled against me. The ox knows its keeper, and the ass the crib of its master; Israel knows nothing, my people understand nothing”.
Tolkien’s translation of Isaiah is heavily influenced by the French original. One typical example is the heavy use of resumptive pronouns, such as ‘them’ in verse 7: ‘your lands, before your eyes strangers ravage them ’. This word order is almost identical to that of the Bible de Jérusalem: ‘votre sol, sous vos yeux des étrangers le ravagent’. Nevertheless, Alex Jones wrote, ‘it is exactly what we want’ (20 January 1957).

Guardian of the Golden Wood
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Priya wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2024 3:44 am It would not be wholly unreasonable to presume that if one looked from the sky downwards – the aerial shape would have been one where the add-on was centrally located in relation to the overall original house, resulting in a reasonably symmetric Tee.



Image


K: kitchen side (E), LR: Living Room side (W), PH: Penthouse side (N)




Or was it?
Excellent spatial reconstruction of the house of Bombadil, Priya, thank you. But wtf with this ending? What have you got up your sleeve, eh?
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

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