Lettuce talk about the Upcoming Amazon LOTR TV series

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Romeran: What you say above is exact the reason why I am not active on the social media other than have currently a short friendlist on Discord, but all friends are Plaza related. I can only agree to what you say.

[Eldy Dunami]

It's refreshing to be on a Tolkien forum where dogwhistles are promptly called out.

@Eldy Dunami I'm curious which parts of it came across as more The hobbit than the LOTR? As I found it looked to have more practical effect and a more practical feel than the hobbit. It may be closer to the Unexpected Journey but that was the only film I didn't absolutely hate from the hobbit trilogy.

I am—as this post undoubtedly makes obvious—not terribly knowledgable about these things, so I hope you're not expecting a good answer. But in my totally subjective layman's opinion, something about the colors feel more Hobbit-esque than LOTR-ish to me. The specifics of what they show are probably a factor, too. The icy landscape and waterfall brings to mind the frozen lake/waterfall action set piece from The Battle of the Five Armies, the ... whatever those are on the backs of the "nomadic hunters" bring to mind Thranduil's elk, and the city with the gigantic statue at the beginning feels overtly fantastical in a way more reminiscent of PJ's Erebor than, say, his version of Minas Tirith.

[Fuin Elda]

Also very glad to see that that has been dealt with swiftly

@Eldy Dunami Honestly I have to admit I found most of the colours more LOTRish than Hobbitish (mostly because of the lower saturation levels than the hobbit over all but the colours are in the Hobbit spectrum) That said honestly I have to admit I never thought of those clips that way - perhaps I'm being hopeful, but you're right about the icy landscape and the moose antlers (am pretty sure that's what they are compared to the elk antlers from the Hobbits) as well as the colossus. I will agree those definitely do lend themselves towards the Hobbit I think what gives me the most hope is that most of the images of those scenes is that unlike the hobbit thus far they seem to at least be following general laws of physics where as (especially the frozenlake/waterfall action set piece from BofFA) the Hobbit tended to ignore that utterly.

[Eldy Dunami]

New interview with the showrunners:

10 Burning Questions About Amazon’s The Rings of Power - Vanity Fair

I'm still working my way through this, but there's a number of additional tidbits of information just in the answer to the first question, including that this sword from the hand posters is Narsil. That's good in my book; I figured the sword could be either Eldarin or Númenórean, but mentioned to friends on Discord that I thought the sun motif was more fitting for Númenor. And indeed, the name Narsil is a compound of the Quenya words Anar "Sun" and Isil "Moon", so it fits.

ETA: Also, an exact quote clarifying the rights situation:

So what did Amazon buy? “We have the rights solely to The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, The Return of the King, the appendices, and The Hobbit,” Payne says. “And that is it. We do not have the rights to The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The History of Middle-earth, or any of those other books.” That takes a huge chunk of lore off the table and has left Tolkien fans wondering how this duo plans to tell a Second Age story without access to those materials. “There’s a version of everything we need for the Second Age in the books we have the rights to,” McKay says. “As long as we’re painting within those lines and not egregiously contradicting something we don’t have the rights to, there’s a lot of leeway and room to dramatize and tell some of the best stories that [Tolkien] ever came up with.”

This is going to force the show to leave out a lot of material people are probably expecting to see. For example, neither the name Annatar and the forced marriage of Pharazôn and Míriel appear in the Appendices, so the show presumably can't use them either. This potentially explains some of the puzzling Pharazôn & Míriel rumors that have made their way through the grapevine, in which Míriel is firmly established as Queen and Pharazôn a mere (evil?) advisor.

[Fuin Elda]

I suppose my question would be in terms of Pharazon and Miriel is that they might be in the Appendices though the stories are not overly - we do get the numenorean line of kings and their wives if I am not mistaken. While that doesn't necessarily give them a lot to work with if they can't contradict something they don't have the rights to that isn't saying they can't use something like that without changing anything? The wording of how they responded to that particular bit is very... interesting I have to say they are neither confirming nor denying that they can use stuff from those as they state anything in the second age IS in the appendices.

I realize that is an absolute stretch in terms of how most legal contracts work for film rights but again I am every hopeful

[Eldy Dunami]

We get the names of the Númenórean monarchs in Appendix A but most of the scant biographical details we know of are from "The Line of Elros" in Unfinished Tales. I don't believe we're told anything about the wives of most of the Númenórean monarchs, though there are some exceptions (besides Pharazôn/Míriel we know of Almarian, Erendis, Hallacar, Herucalmo, Inzilbêth, and maybe one or two others I'm forgetting). I wouldn't be surprised if the showrunners try to squeeze in details from other works so long as they keep it vague. For what it's worth (possibly nothing), one of the more reliable leakers says the showrunners have permission to use posthumously-published material on a case by case basis.

Some more quotes from the article:

Some of the stranger monsters may be digital confections, but when orc-like baddies attack The Rings of Power heroes, it’s guys in suits, not piles of pixels.

Beyond the premiere, there aren’t, however, any significant time jumps or, thus far, episode-long journeys to the past.

I'm glad they (seemingly) won't do much with the First Age, but I'm concerned from some of their statements that with the amount of timeline compression, the whole Second Age in the show's timeline is going to be a couple hundred years at most. Though that could explain Galadriel looking so young. In one of Tolkien's schemas for Elvish aging, he said Galadriel reached the equivalent of the human age of eighteen shortly after her arrival in Beleriand, which according to the aging rate he used in that text would've made her the equivalent of human 21 at the end of the First Age (NoMe, ch. I.18).

In studying the language from the first three episodes Amazon let Vanity Fair screen, we found a mix of cleverly repurposed lines of Tolkien’s dialogue as well as a few snatches of Biblical text.

Okay, but Will It Feel Like The Lord of the Rings?

I suppose that’s up to you to decide, but McKay and Payne have spent a long time thinking about Tolkien’s themes. McKay points out that Peter Jackson nailed exactly the tone they’re chasing

King Durin III is also in the show and he’s portrayed by someone who knows something about playing a bad dad. In Tolkien’s works, Durin III and Durin IV are not father and son, and the title of Durin is more complicated than just a name, but remember that McKay and Payne are compacting thousands of years of Tolkien’s Second Age down into one shortened timeline.

“We told Amazon we wanted to do four or five stories that are the big epics of the Second Age,” McKay says, starting with “the forging of the rings.” At the center of that origin is the famed elven smith Celebrimbor (Charles Edwards) and Aramayos’s younger Elrond. In Eregion, Elrond is working to rebuild damaged alliances with the dwarves, including with his old friend, Prince Durin IV.

Elrond's presence in Eregion is an invention of the showrunners, but not one I'm opposed to in principle.

No word yet on who might be playing the Dark Lord in his younger, more seductive phase. (Yes, Sauron, the flaming eyeball, was once canonically hot, or in the words of Tolkien himself, “fair to the eyes of Men.”)

Hot Sauron confirmed! I repeat: hot Sauron is confirmed!

Tolkien scholars will know that complicated clashes over succession to the Númenorian throne between characters Tar-Míriel and Ar-Pharazôn, the island’s last king, will allow Payne and McKay to explore the kind of dangerous palace intrigue that made the best of Game of Thrones so compelling.

I'm curious to see how this plays out, and how Pharazôn comes to power, since it'll have to be different from the Akallabêth. The Appendices describe Pharazôn as the semi-secret leader of the King's Men "rebellion" against Tar-Palantir; perhaps he continues to play a similar role during Míriel's reign in the show.

“You meet Isildur and he’s like Michael Corleone,” McKay says. “He’s the young member of the family who has optimism and immaturity. Trace that guy to the tragic, final decision rather than the mistake of a fool.” His temptation, and his relationship with his father, Elendil, is all part of the final story on the list: the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.

This might just be an elaboration on the idea of Isildur succumbing to the Ring because of his own internal flaws (a common if, in my opinion, somewhat uncharitable reading of the text), but it could also be a subtle nod to Isildur's precursor, "Herendil," from The Lost Road.

“[Galadriel is] full of piss and vinegar and she’s got a sword that’s broken because she’s killed so many orcs,” McKay says of their version. “This young hot-headed Galadriel…how did she ever become that elder stateswoman?” What’s more important than Galadriel’s armor and weaponry is the turmoil of emotions we see raging inside her, having already survived multiple attacks by Sauron and his predecessor, Morgoth, and losing her brothers in the process.

[...]

In the History of Middle-earth, Tolkien describes the One Ring as “all that Galadriel had desired in her youth.” She has a lifelong flirtation with the darkness inside of her, and even in her later years she remains one of the few people Sauron fears. It’s what makes her much more complex than a simple and serene lady of the woods.

The Vanity Fair writers bring to bear a few more quotes to support the idea of warrior Galadriel. I'm open to the possibility of them coming up with something cool here.

In the footage that premiered in the Rings of Power Super Bowl teaser, audiences caught a glimpse of a tall, mysterious man who falls from the sky. Our immediate instinct is to wonder if he’s one of the wizards even the most casual fans might have heard of. In Tolkien’s text, they didn’t come to Middle-earth until the Third Age, but is the show taking some added liberties with the timeline? When asked if this might be Gandalf, Radagast, or Saruman, McKay answered cautiously, “Well, I would say those are not the only beings, those names, in that class. So maybe, but maybe not. And the mystery and the journey of it is all of the fun, I would say.”

They're obviously teasing the Blue Wizards, but everything about the Blue Wizards—including that term—is in apparently off-limits posthumously published works, so

I'm personally inclined to think the Meteor Man is Sauron.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

It's refreshing to be on a Tolkien forum where dogwhistles are promptly called out.

I just want to register discomfort with what happened above. I did not read the original links, now removed; if they were links to racist or otherwise offensive material i am 100% behind their removal - but I do not know and so am uncomfortable. Having parts of my posts deleted or edited by admins was the reason i left the old plaza. On this site the only thing that is ours are our words, and so it is a big step to revise or delete what someone has written. Please note, i am not criticizing the admins here, like i said, i don't know what the links were (and i am also aware that you two are operating in difficult circumstances atm).

What prompted me to write here is everyone else. Again, possibly I am missing a huge piece of the picture because there was originally posted links to some truly evil material. But in the thread as I read it (after the censorship) I see someone whose English is perhaps not native who is expressing what i take to be a heart felt opinion about the upcoming TV series, an opinion that i am sympathetic with, and that opinion is dismissed as a dogwhistle by a hater who cannot be a god-fearing American because obviously engaged in Russian spyware election rigging or something worse. People are not always very good at expressing themselves, especially if writing in a second language. Some charity of interpretation might be a good thing.

Edit: I'll leave this post as is. But on learning more of the incident, I should never have written it. (Seems i am cursed on this thread to withdraw every comment I make.)

[Fuin Elda]

@Chrysophylax Dives they were indeed links to racist and otherwise incredibly offensive comments on youtube videos with the instructions to READ said comments. Which are as I'm sure you can guess on places like youtube and reddit... utterly toxic.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Chrysophylax Dives they were indeed links to racist and otherwise incredibly offensive comments on youtube videos with the instructions to READ said comments. Which are as I'm sure you can guess on places like youtube and reddit... utterly toxic.

Thanks for that. Admins & everyone else please ignore my previous post. You did good!

[Elenhir]

Some charity of interpretation might be a good thing.

No. No charity for dogwhistles. It's the Paradox of Tolerance. If you're tolerant of that sort of thing, if you seek to give it charitable interpretations, if you bend over backwards to try and find way that the obvious nature of it can be excused, you emphasize the welfare of the oppressor over the oppressed.

Intent be damned, because this is not a game in the mind and there are real effects. Witting or rube, the goal of such action is to give pain and fear to targeted swathes of the fandom, until they believe that they must hide who they are and what they think, or leave entirely, to find a place to exist that does not condemn them and is not overrun with the hatred that was allowed to fester. Witting or rube, letting it stand does those things. To sacrifice the victims of the attack in the attempt to wonder if the attackers, really, weren't all that bad, if we might find a way to interpret them in the best possible light, to give to them a charity that no one has the energy to extend to every idea and opinion they encounter, to take an optimistic outlook on the 'other' that they themselves refuse to do, is offensive on a fundamental moral level and it is a hill I will gladly die on. No quarter. The links were egregious, but anyone who's aware of what's going on out there right now did not need to see them to comprehend the message.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Some charity of interpretation might be a good thing.

The links were egregious, but anyone who's aware of what's going on out there right now did not need to see them to comprehend the message.

I beg your pardon? You are saying that without seeing what was said i should have known it was evil because it was censored? That is a dangerous road.

FYI. I have no idea what is going on out there, if by out there you mean the wider world of Tolkien fandom. I closed down all my Tolkien media stuff a couple of years ago and this is the only place I hang out. I only have a sense of what is going on out there, as you put it, from this thread (which amply confirms all my worst fears).

That said, @Elenhir, I saw that you were the first to call out these links. Now I have been told of their content I wish to say to you (and for me it is not so easy) that you did good.

[Winddancer]

@Chrysophylax Dives Sorry, but we cant leave links like that up until all have seen them. In this case it was decided to remove them. Nothing else was done, the poster kept the rest of what was said. We do not need to link to racist or problematic comments to make a point. They are all out there if you just google it. We just don't want it here. Anyone is free to have any opinion they want, but we do ask that you abide by the forum rules when it comes to expressing them. We have zero tolerance towards rascism and discrimination. Hope that helps :)

[Elenhir]

I am saying that if you are sticking your head in the sand, you're not going to see the proper context and you don't have the ability to judge the response. The fact that everyone else jumped on this the moment it appeared, and that fact that the dogwhistling kept invoking the idea of reactions out there not on this site (well before the links) should have been an indication that other people who immediately took issue had a broader context. Unless your argument is that instead of one person engaging in suspect behavior, it is more likely that half a dozen people with distinct viewpoints all colluded to engage in suspect behavior, which is an odd take if you lack all context. Your choice to remain ignorant is not the issue. But if you want the luxuries of ignorance, like not seeing the evil and not being set upon by the evil and not feeling your spine crawl when the evil creeps over the wall, you need to accept the drawbacks, and one of those involves not making sweeping statements concerning affairs you're choosing to remain completely ignorant of.

[Firinne_Gile]

The answer was confused because I am not able to put images here. And of course the links had nothing to do with racism, they were just critical of the script and plot changes that a lot of people are saying and rightfully so, because they are not mere RPG players, they read what Tolkien wrote. But my comment was specifically about the protest quote “Evil is not capable of creating anything new, it can only distort and destroy what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” that Tolkien's readers are making in Amazon's own official videos. I will put the links of the official Amazon channel in several countries, because this is a historical record. Let's see if the censorship is about racism or about deleting the comment of everyone who doesn't want to worship this new Amazon series.

[Winddancer]

Testing us, isnt the way to go. Especially not when the owner himself told you not to do something. This forum isnt a soapbox for your perceived injustice about what you cannot share here. Every forum is a dictatorship, the owner gets to set the rules. However you have a choice whether you want to stay and follow those rules or leave because you dont.

This thread is about discussing whether you like or dont like the series, make your points without the rascism/discrimination. And that is an official warning to all.

[Dungeon Delver]

The links have everything to do with racism and to pretend like they aren't is not only a bad faith argument but a bald faced lie. I've been dealing with the bull shire long enough to see right through that sort of thing, and this isn't even a clever attempt to cover up the stink of "censorship".

[Romeran]

The answer was confused because I am not able to put images here.

You can add images using bbcode: img and /img

they were just critical of the script and plot changes that a lot of people are saying and rightfully so, because they are not mere RPG players, they read what Tolkien wrote.

See here now you're just attacking people with no actual evidence. I've read basically everything which has come out from Tolkien, most of it multiple times. I've also contributed in my small way to Tolkien scholarship as well. But here you make assumptions and put down RPG players for no good reason.

But my comment was specifically about the protest quote that Tolkien's readers are making in Amazon's own official videos. I will put the links of the official Amazon channel in several countries, because this is a historical record. Let's see if the censorship is about racism or about deleting the comment of everyone who doesn't want to worship this new Amazon series.

If you actually read this thread you'd note that a large part of the people here are far from worshiping the work (which hasn't even come out yet) so this is just patently false. Calling the vitriol (and quite recently racist remarks about the casting choices) as a "historical record" is absurd. It's quite clear that you haven't actually read any of the conversations and that you actually have no desire to participate in a conversation but rather prefer to put people down, link to comment threads with racist remarks about how casting people of color is somehow going against Tolkien, and then cry "censorship" and "dictatorship". You should consider taking a hard look at your own prejudices before attacking other people.

[Firinne_Gile]

The links I sent (see, they are censoring links to the official trailers from Amazon) are for people to see the thousands of messages with a quote from FRODO to SAM, in the book The Lord of the Rings and it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with racism. Well, now those who use the forum already know that if you want to give an opinion contrary to any aspect of the series (I never mentioned choices of black actors in any of my messages), you will be censored for racism. Welcome to 1984.

[Dungeon Delver]

Your schtick isn't even a clever lie, but it's still a lie. If you are pretending not to know exactly what that "quote" is referring to then you are both a fool and a poor liar. You are going out of your way to amplify overtly racist dog whistles, been called out for it many times here, and still you claim to just be "sharing other opinions" and then cry censorship when we don't buy into your bull shire. We are a community that tends to be on the skeptical side of visual adaptations of Tolkien, no one is "worshipping Amazon"

[Winddancer]

Ok, do not post links to something full of rascism. If you want to discuss Sam and Frodo quotes, then copy paste that in instead. It really isnt all that hard to abide by set rules. And I would appreciate it if you stopped with the snide comments as it serves no purpose other than being rude. If you dont like our rules, then there are a ton of other forums that will serve your needs. Now I am asking that you stop about this and get back to posting about the topic. If you have more to say, send it to the admin email where the dictator and I will read it.

[Eldy Dunami]

The links I sent (see, they are censoring links to the official trailers from Amazon) are for people to see the thousands of messages with a quote from FRODO to SAM, in the book The Lord of the Rings and it has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with racism. Well, now those who use the forum already know that if you want to give an opinion contrary to any aspect of the series (I never mentioned choices of black actors in any of my messages), you will be censored for racism. Welcome to 1984.

We weren't born yesterday. This is about race, it's been about race since the Amazon series was first rumored, and not even you are bothering to pretend it isn't about race except when you get called out. You gave a link to your account on "The Tolkien Forum" as part of the contact info section on your Plaza profile, and you posted the same drivel there as you did on TheOneRing.com and possibly other forums I don't visit.

https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads ... ost-549342

And I would like to register a warning here.

This show has three main goals: 1) to mock Tolkien’s work and his own person. “Tolkien is dead, let’s dance on his grave” 2) promote racial discussion because it will be the argument they will use to ban the sale of Tolkien’s books in the near future 3) and most importantly, introduce the person who was the reason for it all “protection” in production. The one who waits to show himself to the world, creating expectation, like an unholy child waiting to be born and who will drastically change the modern culture after the end of this show.

“The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don’t think it gave them life, it only ruined them and twisted them.”

The people who are saying this phrase know, consciously or subconsciously, what is really going on.

https://www.thetolkienforum.com/threads ... ost-549358

I see it in another perspective that most will only see it in a good few months.

And yes, they pretend to care about diversity, but that's just the excuse they'll use to ban Tolkien's books in the future for racism.

[Fuin Elda]

Some charity of interpretation might be a good thing.

The links were egregious, but anyone who's aware of what's going on out there right now did not need to see them to comprehend the message.

I beg your pardon? You are saying that without seeing what was said i should have known it was evil because it was censored? That is a dangerous road.

FYI. I have no idea what is going on out there, if by out there you mean the wider world of Tolkien fandom...

So I saw 'the post' and instead of engaging immediately reported it as linking to racially charged views due to the insistence of going to look at the comments (I only looked at the first and noped out)... Which firinne has confirmed these were Infact links to the trailer however you can also look at their post and confirm that as I stated their original intent was not for us to look at the trailer but the comments and all the negative views. You can also confirm that one of the next posts 'is nope I don't look at the comment sections learned a long time ago not to do that's so I would dare say that yes the intent of the person's post even without the links is contextually there even if you can't see the links. The fact instead of trying to articulate their argument when asked why they choose to go off screaming about dictators and liars says more about their character than those that chose to remove the links.

I can tell you right now a lot of the negative views are centered around there being a 'black' elf (something I honestly hoped for) as we were never actually told the characters where fair of skin and hair (aside from the Vanyar elves) but fair of face which can also mean pleasant to look at. And they are trying to misquote 'evil can't create anything new' to bring down the series. And yes all of this can be inferred from the information left on this forum and this thread. If you want to see a sickening view a singular Google search of the 'quote above and lotr rings of power will suffice (I hope it would make you feel ill and enrage you that people are so narrow minded because I know that's what it does to me).

Which quite frankly if it's got a bunch of racist self centered right wingers screaming about how there aren't black elves and about how Dis? (I think she's suppose to be Dis) is black I'm gonna give Bezos all the money because butt hurt people that are racially gate keeping Tolkien need to see that even if they are vocal the silent majority will stand in the right place. Between them and the bipoc community that wants to be a part of our community. Just like how we've started shutting down LGBTQIA+ doesn't need to be a visible part of our community. As a member of the alphabet mafia you best believe it will be quite clear where I stand on both accounts.
(Loop the new posts should also show you the hot take on this memberas well )




That said I am absolutely up for discourse on why the dwarven woman had no beard. Think if how majestic that black beard would look with gold and silver ornaments in it! The curls! The volume! The length if straightened would put the men's beards to shame.

[Firinne_Gile]

The links were egregious, but anyone who's aware of what's going on out there right now did not need to see them to comprehend the message.

I beg your pardon? You are saying that without seeing what was said i should have known it was evil because it was censored? That is a dangerous road.

FYI. I have no idea what is going on out there, if by out there you mean the wider world of Tolkien fandom...

So I saw 'the post' and instead of engaging immediately reported it as linking to racially charged views due to the insistence of going to look at the comments (I only looked at the first and noped out)...

Amazon started this discussion about racism, calling everyone who disagreed with (any) changes to the original story racist, as is being done here, and this is on purpose. Tolkien's readers have nothing to do with racial discussion, but Amazon does, with its false accusations. Tolkien's readers have always requested that the inhabitants of the South of Middle-earth be represented in new movies.

[Firinne_Gile]

The links were egregious, but anyone who's aware of what's going on out there right now did not need to see them to comprehend the message.

I beg your pardon? You are saying that without seeing what was said i should have known it was evil because it was censored? That is a dangerous road.

FYI. I have no idea what is going on out there, if by out there you mean the wider world of Tolkien fandom...

So I saw 'the post' and instead of engaging immediately reported it as linking to racially charged views due to the insistence of going to look at the comments (I only looked at the first and noped out)

In other words, he doesn't like the opinions of others, who don't even have to do with racism and that's why I'm censored.

[Elenhir]

[Dis? (I think she's suppose to be Dis)

It's a different character, named Disa, because someone thought a good way to name a second Dwarf woman was to take the name of the first one, slap an 'a' at the end of it because it needed the good old English feminine name suffix, and call it a day. I say that's worthy of complaint.

[Firinne_Gile]

I just replied to clarify the question that @Chrysophylax Dives asked, who besides being one of the few nice people around here, was unable to see my links. But now I think maybe he saw and understood what I was really trying to show and that it had nothing to do with racism.

Ok, do not post links to something full of rascism. If you want to discuss Sam and Frodo quotes, then copy paste that in instead. It really isnt all that hard to abide by set rules. And I would appreciate it if you stopped with the snide comments as it serves no purpose other than being rude. If you dont like our rules, then there are a ton of other forums that will serve your needs. Now I am asking that you stop about this and get back to posting about the topic. If you have more to say, send it to the admin email where the dictator and I will read it.

Thanks, but like I said, I don't get along with dictators. I don't join people who are blind and so sick because of your own point of view that they censor the opinions of others.

[Dungeon Delver]

In other words, he doesn't like the opinions of others, who don't even have to do with racism and that's why I'm censored.

You aren't being censored, you're earning the consequences of breaking the rules, you talentless hack

[Romeran]

Amazon started this discussion about racism, calling everyone who disagreed with (any) changes to the original story racist, as is being done here, and this is on purpose. Tolkien's readers have nothing to do with racial discussion, but Amazon does, with its false accusations. Tolkien's readers have always requested that the inhabitants of the South of Middle-earth be represented in new movies.

First of all, please don't bucket all "Tolkien Readers" together in your statements.

Second of all, complaining about the color of the actor's skin as a "change" to the original story is racist if you can't see that then you need to do some reflection. And people (the ones you claim to be "Tolkien Readers") are the ones complaining about the casting choices -- making racist complaints about it, not Amazon.

And to imply that the only way that people of color should be in the movies/series are when they are from "The South of Middle-earth" -- which is notably mostly consists of enemies -- is in and of itself, again, racist. As you are requiring that actors be cast (or not) for roles precisely because of their skin color: that's racist.

So please stop bucketing "Tolkien Readers" as requiring racial discrimination in order to some how preserve Tolkien's work. Last time I checked the stories had nothing to do with the color of people's skin.

[Firinne_Gile]

And to imply that the only way that people of color should be in the movies/series are when they are from "The South of Middle-earth" -- which is notably mostly consists of enemies -- is in and of itself, again, racist.

That is = Tolkien is racist.

That's why I wrote this:

2) promote racial discussion because it will be the argument they will use to ban the sale of Tolkien’s books in the near future

It's all about it and I'm not going to participate in it. Farewell.

[Dungeon Delver]

Tolkien and racism is a discussion that should be had, and done with your bull shire incendiary nonsense, but no one is calling for the banning of the professor's books. Just stop.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

... so I would dare say that yes the intent of the person's post even without the links is contextually there even if you can't see the links.
That said I am absolutely up for discourse on why the dwarven woman had no beard. Think if how majestic that black beard would look with gold and silver ornaments in it! The curls! The volume! The length if straightened would put the men's beards to shame.

So I kept the bit about beards too, but on the first point above: yes, I see that now. I have been in my own protective bubble re. Tolkien for too long and need to wise up.

@Elenhir, you appear to have made the same point above. But given 14 months ago you were calling for me to be hounded out of the plaza you will forgive a raised eyebrow, and perhaps understand why reading a call by you to censor another member was for me a cause for concern.

[Romeran]

And to imply that the only way that people of color should be in the movies/series are when they are from "The South of Middle-earth" -- which is notably mostly consists of enemies -- is in and of itself, again, racist.

That is = Tolkien is racist.

That's why I wrote this:

2) promote racial discussion because it will be the argument they will use to ban the sale of Tolkien’s books in the near future

It's all about it and I'm not going to participate in it. Farewell.

I see you don't actually read Tolkien. Tolkien only rarely describes the colors of people skin but I give you two examples of dark skinned people being NOT from Harad/Far Harad but rather part of Gondor and Dunland respectively.

"Yet the herdsmen and husbandmen that dwelt there were not many, and the most part of the people of Gondor lived in the seven circles of the City, or in the high vales of the mountain-borders, in Lossarnach, or further south in fair Lebennin with its five swift streams. There dwelt a hardy folk between the mountains and the sea. They were reckoned men of Gondor, yet their blood was mingled, and there were short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the king" (The Return of the King, Minas Tirith, my bold emphasis)

and

"Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain, hating the Rohirrim. Of their language nothing appears in this book, save the name Forgoil which they gave to the Rohirrim (meaning Strawheads, it is said).Dunland and Dunlending are the names that the Rohirrim gave to them, because they were swarthy and dark-haired; there is thus no connexion between the word dunn in these names and the Grey-elven word Dûn 'west'" (The Return of the King, Appendix F, my bold emphasis)

"swarth·y
/ˈswôrT͟Hē/
adjective
dark-skinned.

So go take your racism elsewhere and stop accusing Tolkien of being racist or that this series is by some gymnastic stretch of absurdity going to lead to Tolkien's books being banned for racism.

[Winddancer]

Closing this thread so I can catch up and read, it will be reopened in a few, bare with me as I just got home from work.

[Winddancer]

Had a word with the TR and closing this thread. There is a lot of good and valid arguements in here though, so if you want to continue your discussion feel free to open a new thread. HOWEVER, keep it within the rules of the Plaza please or it too shall be shut. No rascism/discrimination. End of. Dictator over and out.