Riddles in the Dark

[Chrysophylax Dives]

What is 'the Afterworld' in the 4th or any other age? Sounds like where dead characters go. So your guess might be right, only I do not understand it. Please elaborate.

Also, any chance of just a tiny clue to help us get going in Fangorn?

[Drifa]

The riddle is what next was seen?

This is what next was seen. Which would be the Fourth Age, right?

...And so also, at
the end of this Tale of Years, he moved 'outside the frame' of the story,
and looked further on to the later lives of Gimli and Legolas, of
Faramir and Eowyn and Eomer, the reign and the deaths of Elessar
and Arwen, and the realm of their son Eldarion in 'the Afterworld'. HoME vol. 12

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Well, thank you for the explanation.

No, not the 'Afterworld'.

[Periantar]

@Chrysophylax Dives given your reply to Drifa, "So your guess may be right, only I do not understand it," I'm going to guess... the Halls of Mandos, dwelling place of the dead, also known as the Halls of Awaiting.

Nice to note also, that the walls there are hung with tapestries depicting the events of M.E's history, therefore, all of the events mentioned in your verse would be seen there.

[Periantar]

Alternativelyc, I'm seeing a series of ships sailing to and from M.E which between them outline the history of Middle Earth. The last ship appears to be Earendil:
"One sails out of Middle-earth
Taking on the straight road
Not the king but his Stone."

I'm thinking the next ship seen may have been The White Ship, that which Gandalf, Bilbo and Frodo et al. sailed upon. Of course, this theory will sink (hahaha) or swim on the literalness of there being three and only three ships, as there have been Elves leaving Middle-Earth for sometime.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Wow, I am learning so much. I never even came upon this 'Afterworld' before - have to go read it. Reminds me of the late-Victorian dons of Cambridge whose letters I used to read when doing a PhD. They talked of the 'Afterlife', by which they meant the world that the student entered on graduating from the university. As for the tapestries hanging on the walls of the Halls of Mandos, again I never noticed the detail but compare Tolkien in 1936 on the Old English Beowulf:

None the less we may still, against his great scene, hung with tapestries woven of ancient tales of ruin, see the hæleð [ancient heroes] walk.

But no, the answer to this riddle is neither the Afterworld nor the Hall of Mandos. However, @Periantar your alternative vision is certainly looking in the right direction...

[Drifa]

Is the riddle why a Dwarf was willing/be received/or permitted to sail over the Sea?

But when King Elessar gave up his life Legolas followed at last the desire of his heart and sailed over Sea.
Here follows one of the last notes in the Red Book.
We have heard tell that Legolas took Gimli Glóin's son with him because of their great friendship, greater than any that has been between Elf and Dwarf. If this is true, then it is strange indeed: that a Dwarf should be willing to leave Middle-earth for any love, or that the Eldar should receive him, or that the Lords of the West should permit it. But it is said that Gimli went also out of desire to see again the beauty of Galadriel; and it may be that she, being mighty among the Eldar, obtained this grace for him. More cannot be said of this matter.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

No, the riddle is not why a Dwarf...

Putting out a riddle there is always this worrying first few days because of the fear that it is so obvious and will be guessed at once. Now, however, I have settled down to enjoying this...

[Drifa]

Three ships is what I see,
Sailings of a mythical history.
One brings the king to Middle-earth
On wings of storm as the world is bent.
One bears on a sea-wind
the king who returns.
One sails out of Middle-earth
Taking on the straight road
Not the king but his Stone.
Three ships, as they appeared to me.
A mythic end of my own history.
A frame of story sharp and keen,
The riddle is what next was seen?

One brings the king to Middle-earth
On wings of storm as the world is bent.Elendil?
One bears on a sea-wind
the king who returns. heir of Elendil, Aragorn?
One sails out of Middle-earth
Taking on the straight road
Not the king but his Stone.Stone of Elendil?

I can not see anything obvious here except Elendil. But I will not guess again till it feels right.

[Periantar]

So I'm hearing that considering the White Ship and its journey might be "looking in the right direction."

They sailed from the Grey Havens, towards Valinor, Cirdan made all of these ships, but never returned on any of them as he didn't consider it his destiny (I too am loving digging into the lore a little more). If it is he that is sharing his frame of reference for the history of Middle-Earth, then what did he see next? Maybe as suggested two very unlikely friends, Gimli and Legolas; maybe one fat nassty hobbitses returning to his master.

To make this an offical guess, is the answer "three friends sailing free?"

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I can not see anything obvious here except Elendil. But I will not guess again till it feels right.

To make this an offical guess, is the answer "three friends sailing free?"

Very unclear if you are guessing here Dwarf. But if so, the answer is not Elendil. Nor is it 'three friends saling free". Here is my kind of version of a Drifa-clue.

If this was the Beowulf Fanatics Plaza then there would not be two ships but only three. The first, which brought the king to Middle-earth, and the third, which sails in the opposite direction but in this case bears the body of the king. Tolkien concluded that the first of these two ships was in fact a memory of very ancient Germanic myth, while the idea of a ship returning the king at his end was an innovation of the Anglo-Saxon poet, who borrowed this ship from the native British tales of Arthur vanishing after the Battle of Camlann.

I doubt that helps much. But I feel better knowing that you all know that the Middle-earth text that will give you the answer that you need appears to me a deliberate re-working of the schema of Beowulf.

[Periantar]

Never studied Beowulf, only have a very slim knowledge of it

However, it now seems to me, from your response, that we may be referring to to the passage where Faramir describes what he saw, or thought he saw after Boromir's death. May the next thing seen, be a broken sword upon a fallen warrior's knee?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Never studied Beowulf, only have a very slim knowledge of it

However, it now seems to me, from your response, that we may be referring to to the passage where Faramir describes what he saw, or thought he saw after Boromir's death. May the next thing seen, be a broken sword upon a fallen warrior's knee?

Well, the Beowulf clue was not really meant to help at all. It was just me aspiring to the level of unhelpfulness reached by the clues of the Dwarf.

As to Faramir and the broken sword: no.

[Periantar]

DAH!!!

[Drifa]

Okay how about this.
What was seen next was the dream/ vision that Frodo heard/saw in Tom's house?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Okay how about this.
What was seen next was the dream/ vision that Frodo heard/saw in Tom's house?

Not bad, but no.

Thanks for the clue in Fangorn.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Elendil was not the right answer. But ships and Elendil is the right direction. But Elendil is not named explicitly in the passage that gives the answer.

And that is me trying to be helpful.

[Periantar]

@Chrysophylax Dives the next thing you saw was a ship, not bearing a stone, but a white tree.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Chrysophylax Dives the next thing you saw was a ship, not bearing a stone, but a white tree.

Oooo. That's the spirit. But no tomato. Nope.

[Periantar]

[Chrysophylax Dives]

You got to identify the passage in the text. Only way.
Hint: it is not exactly an obscure passage.

[Drifa]

[Drifa]

Was what was seen next darkness and then a single Eye?

Then there was a pause, and after it many swift scenes followed that Frodo in some way knew to be parts of a great history in which he had become involved. The mist cleared and he saw a sight which he had never seen before but knew at once: the Sea. Darkness fell. The sea rose and raged in a great storm. Then he saw against the Sun, sinking blood-red into a wrack of clouds, the black outline of a tall ship with torn sails riding up out of the West. Then a wide river flowing through a populous city. Then a white fortress with seven towers. And then again a ship with black sails, but now it was morning again, and the water rippled with light, and a banner bearing the emblem of a white tree shone in the sun. A smoke as of fire and battle arose, and again the sun went down in a burning red that faded into a grey mist; and into the mist a small ship passed away, twinkling with lights. It vanished, and Frodo sighed and prepared to draw away.

But suddenly the Mirror went altogether dark, as dark as if a hole had opened in the world of sight, and Frodo looked into emptiness. In the black abyss there appeared a single Eye that slowly grew. until it filled nearly all the Mirror. So terrible was it that Frodo stood rooted, unable to cry out or to withdraw his gaze. The Eye
“Lord Of The Rings - Part 1 - Fellowship Of The Rings” By J R R Tolkien 264
was rimmed with fire, but was itself glazed, yellow as a cat's, watchful and intent, and the black slit of its pupil opened on a pit, a window into nothing

[Chrysophylax Dives]

You got to identify the passage in the text. Only way.
Hint: it is not exactly an obscure passage.

Was what was seen next darkness and then a single Eye?

Had a reading weekend, eh Dwarf?
I am not sure one sees the darkness, possibly it is more an absence of seeing. The answer that I was looking for was indeed the Eye.

(And there in that passage, or so it seems to me, the underlying 'geography' of The Lord of the Rings is drawn out for us.)

You now have two riddle threads at your command. I have been looking at the sadness and drops on the lowland, and your 'hint' has sent me off to eagles and what have you. But we may require another of your gentle Dwarf hints...

[Drifa]

Thanks, Dragon! If anyone wants to post a riddle, please be my guest.

[Periantar]

Well done @Drifa and @Chrysophylax Dives you had me chasing my own tail there for a while, which with a hobbit, is no mean feat, usually we just can't be bothered.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Well done @Drifa and @Chrysophylax Dives you had me chasing my own tail there for a while, which with a hobbit, is no mean feat, usually we just can't be bothered.

Well, I thought and hoped that you were going to get it, Periantar. But one cannot stop a force of nature. Given @Drifa's post above - any chance of another of your riddles?

[Periantar]

Give me a day or two

[Periantar]

A spirit that burns with desire
A symbol of great meaning
A beginning of many things from
An ending of just one
The first,
Master of much, possessor of none

Meehhhhhhhhhh, this might be too easy, I don't know. Anyhow, there it is.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Oooo. No idea, but it is good to have a change of flavour of riddle. Hope the Dward does not get it too quickly.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Tom Bombadil?

[Periantar]

@Chrysophylax Dives

That's more like it. I was thinking there for a minute that I wouldn't get even so much as a guess from you. Ol' Tommy Bombadillo most definitely a master of much, and I dare say he would not consider himself to possess any of it, (perhaps with the exception of Goldberry, and she likewise of him, I'm sure).

That being said...
Nope

[Chrysophylax Dives]

How much pleasure did you get writing that, eh?
I've learned to be patient when I put up a riddle. It always takes people a while to step out of the old one and into the new. Then you get a nibble, but still gotta be patient. :)

Yeah, did not really make sense it was Tom, not with all the obscure first bits...

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Drifa hoi!

[Arnyn]

Saruman?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Morgoth?

[Periantar]

@Chrysophylax Dives @Arnyn

Morgoth - no, though I do like the connection with "spirit that burns"
Saruman - also a "no" though of course, we all know very well what his symbol was, and he certainly convinced himself that he was the master of many

This is definitely a "who" so thus far we are on the right track picking out individuals.

[Drifa]

What about Fëanor, Spirit of Fire?

[Periantar]

The venerable dwarf, @Drifa, has of course smashed it out of the park - it was after all a little too easy...

I would like to invite Drifa to explain the riddle

[Drifa]

Thank you, young, hobbit! I will do that as soon as I get home from the mines. I spent too much time in Scary and have run out of time. Have a good day!

[Drifa]

Upon reading the first line of the riddle, my first thought was Fëanor. I believe the Silmarils to be a symbol of significant meaning. The third and fourth lines of the riddle pertain to all the events from the beginning to the end of the history of the Silmarils. Fëanor was the greatest of the Noldor, leader in a rebellion, deviser of the Fëanorian script, and maker of the Silmarils. But in the end, he died, his deeds both renowned and grievous, possessor of none: - one Silmaril remains visible in the world, bound to Eärendil's brow as he sails the heavens...

A spirit that burns with desire
A symbol of great meaning
A beginning of many things from
An ending of just one
The first,
Master of much, possessor of none

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I relate to envy... and pride. Who is Gertrude Clevercloggs?

[Periantar]

well done Drifa, my own break down...

A spirit that burns with desire - Feanor was known to have a fiery spirit, also, his body was consumed with flame when he died
A symbol of great meaning - The creator of the Tengwar, or the Feanorian script - symbols which gave meaning to words
A beginning of many things from -
An ending of just one - pretty much everything in the Silmarillion came from the Kinslaying, which was the ending of peace in Valinor
The first, - the first posessor of the Silmarils
Master of much, possessor of none - As king, was master of his peeps, yet all he wanted was what he could not possess

[Chrysophylax Dives]

"A symbol of great meaning - The creator of the Tengwar, or the Feanorian script - symbols which gave meaning to words."

That is the line I kick myself on.

As for our riddles, we appear to be in the doldrums. Maybe we are all riddled out. It might help if we could just convict the Dwarf in the Lore trial and so all move on. Also, I now worry that the court case might have given the Riddles of the plaza a bad name.

Actually, I think we just need to wait for the Dwarf to finish off with the word-sleuth stuff and then get perilously bored once again.

[Drifa]

"And the Grinch, with his Grinch-feet ice cold in the snow, stood puzzling and puzzling, how could it be so? It came without ribbons. It came without tags. It came without packages, boxes or bags. And he puzzled and puzzled 'till his puzzler was sore. Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before. What if Christmas, he thought, doesn't come from a store. What if Christmas, perhaps, means a little bit more."


Middle-earth Related
Blue, grey, silver, white, and black
All mixed into a magical sack
Shake it up, shake it down
shake it round n' round
Then, place it on the ground
Stand back, hold your breath
From top to bottom, all dressed
What comes out will surely impress
Especially to one whose eyes unsuspect

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Wow!
Dwarf on a roll.

[Drifa]

It was my turn. No guess? Tsk tsk...

[Chrysophylax Dives]

That was a guess, I thought the answer was 'Dwarf on a roll'.
How about, following my Lore post, 13 Dwarves caught by 3 Trolls?

[Drifa]

Interesting, 'Dwarf on a roll'. Nope, not 13 Dwarves caught by 3 Trolls.

[Drifa]

Oh, my my, I forgot to ask, Who am I? way back before Santa came, * grin*. I hope this helps.