Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

From what I remember, Melkor made death-of-the-physical-body a norm by marring Arda so that even the elves body would decay over time (see Morgoth's Ring) without the power of say... the elven rings or Valinor itself. I don't remember whether or not animals and plants, however, were created as immortal beings, or whether their mortality was likewise affected by Melkor's actions. Would animals and plants have been immortal if Melkor did not mar Arda?

The implications of this is important in terms of discussing the "gift of men." From what I remember in terms of the implications through Finrod and Andreth's discussion, being surrounded by the concept of physical death made it difficult for even the Wisest of humanity to fully understand why their mortality was a "gift." While the race of men still retained the ability to move on from Arda itself, one big part of that gift (the death part) tends to lose its uniqueness if almost every other thing experiences it.

This opens up a potential follow-up question: if animals and plants were originally mortal regardless of Melkor's actions, like humans, would it still have been difficult for humans to understand their "gift" if only the elves, ents, and a minority of other beings were immortal?

Since M-e was based on Tolkien's Christian understanding of this world's creation, I see no reason to suppose that animals and plants in Arda would have an ever-living condition. Biological science shows intrinsic and essential inter-dependence between the lifecycle of both plants and animals, which wouldn't work if they weren't keen to keep living and procreating. I think their activity is nothing to do with Morgoth at all.

With only the Children of Iluvatar being the subject of Eru's gifts (as Man is the only creature made in the image of God) it would not be difficult to distinguish between creatures with souls and those without. Much of the problems of Men in Tolkien's stories stems from dark/evil interference poisoning their minds against Eru for not making them immortal, and not from meetings with the Elves, from which some excellent and noble friendships came. In the Legendarium, Elves don't really 'get' mortality and it's an aberration for Luthien, Elros and Arwen to choose it. Of course, their 'immortality' is rather like vampirism - you will get weary, you may fade, you can be killed ...

To see death as a gift is not Christian at all, of course, so Tolkien's exploration of 'the gift of men' in his stories splits from Christian understanding on this issue.

From what I can gather, given my limited understanding of what Tolkien was trying to achieve, it was rather like there's a 'secret future after-death surprise' given instead of the immortality most of his mortal characters would rather have had. It seems only the long-lived 'wise ones' actually ever understood why it was a gift. Tis almost like Tolkien heard 'Rage against the dying of the light' and decided to explore why or how accepting it might be better - not that I think that was his goal.

The question of where Tolkien was relying on his own Christian worldview versus deviating from Christian understanding is interesting @Lirimaer. Thanks for bringing it up.
I mentioned this in... the time travel thread maybe? Somewhere silly, I think, but I personally see that there's kind of a strand of acceptance of death / passing on as part of the natural world. To revoke that -- in the case of Men, by trying to achieve immortality. in the case of Elves, by holding on to memories of the First Age and trying to bring back a light now lost -- is to go against the natural world. So, I don't know that animals, which haven't fallen out of sync with the world around them, would necessarily need to be immortal (even in an Arda Unmarred where... I guess overpopulation just isn't an issue). They, like Men, are of the world -- and pass easily into their own death.

Androthelm wrote: ↑Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:40 pm I personally see that there's kind of a strand of acceptance of death / passing on as part of the natural world.

I think that depends what you mean by 'passing on'. If you mean their soul or fëa passing on to whatever Eru has planned for them post-life, then yes - I agree. If you mean simply 'death of the body' then I cannot.

Acceptance of death as nothing more than a natural end, and the rather aggressive assumption that 'there is nothing further after death and the people who believe it are fools' is a common argument against belief in God in the real world. We need not need ascribe it to Tolkien's works, (except as part of the Enemy's propaganda - a tool that works and divides man from belief in the benevolence of his Creator) since Tolkien clearly doesn't believe that.

Tolkien wrote that death was not the end for his characters, and neither was Eä (the result of the Music of the Ainur) the limit of creation. This all echoes Christian beliefs in their being a higher purpose for beings with souls than 'birth-decay-death'; acceptance of 'we're just animals with a life-cycle' is the corrupted interpretation, cast by the Enemy's shadow.

The Silmarillion: Of the beginning of days wrote:Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

The Silmarillion: Of Men wrote:What may befall their spirits after death the Elves know not. Some say that they too go to the halls of Mandos; but their place of waiting there is not that of the Elves, and Mandos under Ilúvatar alone save Manwë knows whither they go after the time of recollection in those silent halls beside the Outer Sea. None have ever come back from the mansions of the dead, save only Beren son of Barahir, whose hand had touched a Silmaril; but he never spoke afterward to mortal Men. The fate of Men after death, maybe, is not in the hands of the Valar, nor was all foretold in the Music of the Ainur.

@Lirimaer sorry! Maybe I wasn't clear -- it seems to me (I'll dig for the quotes when I get the chance, but I think I brought it up in the Read-Through thread) that both Elves and Men wrestle to accept that passing on from Middle-Earth is the right/natural thing to do. Men seeking immortality, and Elves seeking to linger in the glory of a now-passed age (see: the inevitability of tragedy in Lothlorien).

Perhaps I was mistaken to say that animals are "like Men" in being wholly of this world, but they certainly don't seem to have these theological/afterlife concerns going on, so I think that the answer to @Dwarrow Elf's original question is probably that no, they'd still be mortal in an unmarred Arda.

As @Lirimaer said "M-e was based on Tolkien's Christian understanding of this world's creation". In regards to this, C.S. Lewis (Jack) writes in 'The Problem of Pain' of aninak immortality in the chapter on animal pain. He also says:

The Satanic corruption of the beasts would therefore be analogous, in one respect, with the Satanic corruption of man.

In this case, before the fall in Eden, men were immortal then therefore so would animals. All animals were herbivores with a low (and painless) birth rate.
To go further than this is too religious.