Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

He counted Sauron a friend, right? Certainly he learned the art of making the Rings of Power through the counsel of Sauron. When he heard the Ring-verse spoken he knew he was betrayed.

But before he heard the Ring-verse spoken, did he know in his heart what Sauron was but hide this knowledge from himself? Was he just a fool? He is one, after all, who made the mess that Frodo Baggins and company had to clear up at the close of another age. How does history, elvish and mortal, judge him?

Did he lie to himself before the One Ring was forged?

Eldy Dunami wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 8:58 pm
I consider the story of Celebrimbor and Annatar one of the most tragic of the Second Age, with its arc from friendship and mutual brilliance, to torture, murder, and Sauron using his former friend's corpse as a battle standard (an exceptionally grisly detail even by Sauronian standards).

Oooh I so need to read this..

Winddancer wrote: ↑Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:39 pmOooh I so need to read this..

Most of what we know about Annatar and Celebrimbor comes from the chapter "The History of Galadriel and Celeborn" in Unfinished Tales (the details of his death and the desecration of his corpse are found on p. 238 of the standard HarperCollins / Houghton Mifflin edition). It is, unfortunately, very brief. Annatar/Celebrimbor is a moderately popular ship within the Silmarillion fanfiction community—based on AO3 stats, it's slightly behind Erestor/Glorfindel and well below heavy hitters like Fingon/Maedhros and Melkor/Sauron—but stories about them tend to have really depressing endings, for obvious reasons.

That is very helpful @Eldy Dunami, thank you. I looked up 'The History of G. and C,' which I must once have read but had long forgotten. I like your reading, whereby Sauron's change from genuine repentance to, well, being Sauron, is the key to why Celebrimbor is neither quite a fool nor corrupt.

'The History of G. and C.' does paint him as ambitious (desiring in his heart to rival the skill and fame of his grandfather), but also declares that he "was not corrupted in heart or faith, but had accepted Sauron as what he posed to be", but also we have: "When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor...", which seems (to me) to suggest a moral failing that he is repenting.

He is hard to pin down. In addition to our understanding of the Second Age, pinning down Celebrimbor seems also key to understanding the scene outside the Doors of Durin in The Lord of the Rings (well, really the whole journey through Holin and also on through Moria). Celebrimbor haunts this scene: the words that he has written over the doors are a riddle only half worked out when 'Friend' is discovered the password; left hanging is a word that seems to capture the very heart of the Second Age, or at least this story of betrayal - which is the same story we are in now in the Third Age. 'Speak Friend and Enter and meet a Balrog from the First Age'.

Maybe the fault with Celebrimbor is not that he was taken in by Sauron but simply that his own ambition was too great and he made Three Rings of Power that should never have been made (for they challenged the very order of the world)?

Cheers, @Chrysophylax Dives.

Chrysophylax Dives wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:13 amMaybe the fault with Celebrimbor is not that he was taken in by Sauron but simply that his own ambition was too great and he made Three Rings of Power that should never have been made (for they challenged the very order of the world)?

I think this is the intended meaning. Tolkien stated in Letter 131, "Sauron found [the Elves of Eregion's] weak point in suggesting that, helping one another, they could make Western Middle-earth as beautiful as Valinor. It was really a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try and make a separate independent paradise." I don't personally buy into this moral reasoning, but it's consistent with many of Tolkien's comments about divine authority. Interestingly, it's a bit harder to square with the idea, found in "Words, Phrases, and Passages," that the removal of the Eldar to Valinor was itself a mistake on the part of the Valar, and contrary to Eru's intentions (PE 17, pp. 178–179). But that's kind of an outlier of a concept within the corpus of Tolkien's works.

Hi @Eldy Dunami,

Ever since your first reply i've found myself picturing (and not quite by choice) Celebrimbor and Sauron as larger versions of Deagol and Smeagol - very odd.

By the by, I went and read the Silmarillion bit on the Rings of Power, which says the same as Letter 131 - the elves of Eregion were 'not at peace in their hearts' because they wanted both to remain in Middle-earth and the bliss of those who had departed.

I do agree with @Eldy Dunami's point that initially Sauron was sincere in his repenting:

He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) (Home X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed)

Morgoth and Sauron were both villains, but they followed different paths. Since I've been playing D&D, I've though a lot about alignments (and the incorrect criticism that Tolkien only wrote black and white characters). I would say Melkor is Chaotic evil (his malice and anger descended into nihilism. His fell to detest everything in existence). Sauron is the Lawful evil. Tolkien describes that he never became a sincere atheist, nor descended as low as nihilism, he just believed the Valar had removed themselves from Middle-earth affairs he could make the world as he wanted. Order and co-ordination are "virtues" but the cause of his fall, and relapse, is his attempts to "bulldoze and dominate free-will."

I won't go into much further details as this thread is about Celebrimbor, but I do think it sheds some light on Celebrimbor. Personally I wouldn't judge him to be a fool, nor corrupt, but I think their ambitions were similar and they inevitably became connected. Afterall, the Noldor and Sauron were also closely associated to Aule. Aule, like Melkor, rebelled against Iluvatar, but he'd be on the lower end of the scale. I think Tolkien wrote a lot of grey characters, or made it possible that any of his characters were capable of "the Fall." Whether that be some misdemeanor like Aule's rebellion making the dwarves, or all the way to Melkor's nihilism.

Chrsophylax Dives wrote:Maybe the fault with Celebrimbor is not that he was taken in by Sauron but simply that his own ambition was too great and he made Three Rings of Power that should never have been made (for they challenged the very order of the world)?

Yep, wonderfully put. I've always found it interesting that Gandalf cautions Frodo "a ring of Power looks after itself." It's quite intentional he doesn't specifically say "the One Ring."

From 'Galadriel & Celeborn' in Nature of Middle-earth, p. 347. Apparently dating to 1955:

He [Sauron] visits Ergeion and is rejected by Galadriel and Celeborn. He sees that he has met his match... in Galadriel; he dissembles his wrath, and gets around Celebrimbor. The Noldorin Smiths under Celebrimbor admit him and begin to learn from him (so in a sense the story of Fëanor is repeated).

And an expanded account on the same page says of Celebrimbor that he was "secretly anxious to rival the skill and fame of Fëanor".

I've been struggling for a while to read the riddle inscribed by Celebrimbor above the Doors of Durin in relation to the Second Age, and just came upon this in NoMe (p. 369); my emphasis:

But until [S.A.] 1600 he [Sauron] was still using the disguise of the beneficent friend...

Reading this in light of Galadriel:

And he gropes ever to see me and my thought. But still the door is closed!

Celebrimbor's riddle can be read as an account of what he achieved with his Ring-making, with Sauron the 'friend' who speaks, opens the door - and sees/enters your naked mind. (And we all know what words Sauron speaks.)

Does this make sense?

hi @Eldy Dunami, any chance of getting your take on this next time you are around? it would be much appreciated.

Chrysophylax Dives wrote: ↑Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:53 pmCelebrimbor's riddle can be read as an account of what he achieved with his Ring-making, with Sauron the 'friend' who speaks, opens the door - and sees/enters your naked mind. (And we all know what words Sauron speaks.)

I've always taken the (boringly?) straightforward interpretation that the inscription wasn't a riddle at all. Gandalf refers to it as one, but he also says the correct translation is Say "Friend" and enter, which is not so much a riddle as a very simple set of instructions. "Too simple for a learned lore-master in these suspicious days. Those were happier times." So I'm not inclined to see any deeper meaning to the inscription intended by Celebrimbor.

From a story-external perspective, I suppose it's possible Tolkien meant this as an allusion to Celebrimbor's history with Sauron. Unfortunately, I don't have much speculation to offer on that front, being too behind on sleep this week and also too distracted by all the dirty jokes about Sauron entering naked things which I can't make on a PG-13 forum.

Eldy Dunami wrote: ↑Fri Mar 25, 2022 6:04 am I don't have much speculation to offer on that front, being too behind on sleep this week and also too distracted by all the dirty jokes about Sauron entering naked things which I can't make on a PG-13 forum.

O well. Thanks for the reply. On that last, the way to go, or so i have learned this week, is to make the jokes in Latin or elvish or some language nobody understands...

I've always wondered how Eregion looked like?

Was it a fortress? A walled city?

Danke, Eldy. Indeed I am enlightened by your explanation.

Just found it sad Sauron was able to overrun Eregion that easily without heavy losses from his own horde. Mind you, this is a fortress of the Noldor. I was expecting a 300 kind of battle scenario.

Wow Eldy thanks good read!