Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza

My 11-year-old so has read The Hobbit and has recently started FOTR and the questions are rolling in. He loves the military aspects of Middle-earth He asked me who was stronger militarily at their peak, Gondor or Arnor, and I could not give him an answer because I don't know. Did Tolkien give us the answer? or at least some hints?

Eldy Dunami wrote: ↑Sat Feb 05, 2022 4:59 am Gondor had a larger population, controlled more territory, and won numerous wars of conquest to become the regional hegemon of northwest Middle-earth for the first ~2000 years of the Third Age. Even in the twilight of the Age, they remained Mordor's most significant opponent in the West. Arnor was smaller geographically, (even) less densely populated than the South-kingdom, and ceased to exist as a unified state while Gondor was still centuries away from reaching its apex.

That about sums it up then. Gondor it is. TY

I might be wrong here, but if memory serves me Arnor sort of had a similar fate that the Carolingian Empire experienced after the death of Louis the Pious, while Gondor stayed more united in the Byzantine style. Which is basically what Eldy said making my post redundant

@Nessa Saelind, yes Byzantine and Carolingian are good comps for Gondor and Arnor respectively.

Since you're asking about their military power at their peaks, it's unquestionably Gondor, and I think it would be difficult to argue that there was ever a time when Arnor was militarily stronger than Gondor.

Gondor at it's summit (during Hyarmendacil's reign) Appendix A said that none dared to contest Gondor:

The might of Hyarmendacil no enemy dared to contest during the remainder of his long reign. He was king for one hundred and thirty-four years, the longest reign but one of all the Line of Anarion. In his day Gondor reached the summit of its power. The realm then extended north to the field of Celebrant and the southern eaves of Mirkwood; west to the Greyflood; east to the inland Sea of Rhun; south to the River Harnen. and thence along the coast to the peninsula and haven of Umbar. The Men of the Vales of Anduin acknowledged its authority; and the kings of Harad did homage to Gondor, and their sons lived as hostages in the court of its King. Mordor was desolate, but was watched over by great fortresses that guarded the passes. (Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion)


Arnor, at it's greatest:

'At its greatest Arnor included all of Eriador, except the regions beyond the Lune, and the lands east of Greyflood and Loudwater, in which lay Rivendell and Hollin. Beyond the Lune was Elvish country, where no Men went...(ibid)
Another reason that hasn't been mentioned (and why Gondor became a significant military power), were the Ship-kings, that like the Numenoreans, built a dominant naval force:

For many years Umbar was invested, but could not be taken because of the sea-power of Gondor. (ibid)

During Earnil I's reign, Gondor took Umbar and it became a fortress for Gondor that they held for many years. (I'm terrible at math, but if memory and math is correct it was approximately 500 years later, when Castamir seized Umbar during the Kin-strife). I don't know if Arnor really ever had a naval force, but if they did it wasn't significant enough to be mentioned. I suppose they would have had one, since Elendil enters Eriador with 4 ships by the Gulf of Lune, establishing Arnor. However, after that I don't recall anything mentioning Arnor's sea-power.

Thank you all for the comments. I think I have enough to go back to my kid and answer his question.

Nessa Saelind wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:46 pm I might be wrong here, but if memory serves me Arnor sort of had a similar fate that the Carolingian Empire experienced after the death of Louis the Pious...

I have no idea who Louis the Pious was, nor his fate. Could you elaborate please?

I was thinking about this suggestion because I was thinking about how we encounter Arnor through the eyes of the hobbits who settled a corner of it and walk, on the way to Rivendell, to and beyond its ancient border in the east. Franks (or perhaps Bergundians, or even Lombards) make a much better comparison with the hobbit settlers than do the Anglo-Saxons usually mentioned, as the Anglo-Saxons do not feel that continuity with the ancient order that is maintained in the Shire. But are you sure that the Carolingian analogy is not more appropriate for the hobbits than it is for Arnor itself.

Chrysophylax Dives wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:56 am

Nessa Saelind wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:46 pm I might be wrong here, but if memory serves me Arnor sort of had a similar fate that the Carolingian Empire experienced after the death of Louis the Pious...

I have no idea who Louis the Pious was, nor his fate. Could you elaborate please?

Louis the Pious was Charlemagne's son and ruled the Carolingian Empire after Charlemagne's death. It should be noted that Carolingian Empire is the modern term historians use, at the time Charlemagne and Louis they would be titled King of the Franks and the Lombards. Anyway I believe @Nessa Saelind was saying that Arnor's fate was similar to the Carolingian Empire. I don't know if Tolkien intended this connection, but it is an appropriate comparison.

Louis the Pious divided the Empire into 3 Kingdoms (passing rule onto 3 of his sons, 1 son to rule each region, but all subject to Louis' rule). This led to internal tension and civil war among the sons vying for more power. Louis before his death in 840 was able to end the civil war and briefly reunite the 3 kingdoms again, but after his death they were partitioned again. Then followed decades of more in-fighting and rebellion. Eventually the Viking invasions ended the Empire, but most attribute the initial fall to being partitioned into 3 kingdoms and the sons (and their successors) civil wars leaving the Empire incapable of dealing with the Viking invasions.

I think you can make the same comparison to Arnor, splitting up into Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur and the notable tensions between the kingdoms was the reason for their collapse. The Witch-king invading from Angmar was just the external threat, but it was the internal fighting that ended Arnor.

Chrysophylax Dives wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 4:56 amI have no idea who Louis the Pious was, nor his fate. Could you elaborate please?

@Boromir88 managed to respond to your question quicker than I could and he essentially covered the basics. Louis the Pious was Charlemagne's only surviving son and heir. Just an addendum to his titles, he was not only King of the Franks and King of Aquitaine but also Imperator Romanorum - that's the title Charlemagne had. Modern historians speak of the Carolingian Empire, but contemporaries considered Charlemagne the Emperor of Romans, the heir of Constantine VI who was deposed by his own mother, basileus Irene - but I'm going off-topic here.



When I noted the similarity of Arnor, which was divided into 3 parts Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur, with the partition of the Carolingian Empire after the death of Louis the Pious it's also interesting to note similarities with the Franks and some of the customs we find in Middle Earth and its cultures. Such as male primogeniture, a version of Lex salica whose best-known part is the principle of exclusion of women from the inheritance of thrones, fiefs and other properties and how this is amended in Numenor in the time of Tar-Aldarion since he did not have a legitimate male heir... It got me thinking about what other historical events, places, cultures etc. served as an inspiration to Tolkien. Especially since he was a professor of Anglo-Saxon at Oxford when he wrote the Hobbit... But now I am really going off-topic and I think this idea deserves a thread of its own. So I shall go do that and we can talk more about this brainchild there!