Hey all, sorry -- I've been away for a couple of days and haven't managed to keep up with the plaza too well. That being said -- and understanding that there's been some hostility in this thread this weekend -- I'd love to pull things back and ask some legitimately good-faith questions as part of the ongoing discussion.
DalMaegil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:12 am
And yet, you are detaching that portion from the quote from the entire quote's context, which most certainly shows that the such canons are his own work.
I'd love to know what you mean here! I'm really not sure how the "canons of narrative art" could be read as exclusively Tolkiens, so I'd love to hear this expanded.
DalMaegil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:12 am
It does quite seem to be nit-picky, as Tolkien's own works involves reams of revisions, leading to, from his rightful perspective, multiple canons. Those, however, still remain his. To imply that someone other than the authour and his rightful heir or heirs can snap new "canons" into existence is automatically suspect and capricious.
This is an interesting take... especially here? Isn't all the fan-engagement we do, particularly over in the regional forums, the creation of some sort of fan-accepted (even at a local or individual level) canons? I think we might just have to agree to disagree on the nature of fan-engagement here, but I'd love to hear you expand on this and how you feel it applies to RP, speculative worldbuilding, or Tolkien's own willingness to let "other minds and hands" attend to the creation of his world etc.
DalMaegil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:12 am
You seem to be confusing the word "
modernistic" with "
modernist". I carefully used the former, not the latter.
That's entirely fair! I was construing (although I'll say not
confusing) one word for the other -- I assumed you misused the word, since "modernistic" is hardly a common one. That being said -- I'd love to hear you expand on this as well. What elements of the show do you feel are (to quote the oxford page you link, and make sure we're all looking closely at the definition) "(of a painting, building, piece of furniture, etc.) painted, designed, etc. in a very modern style"? Is there something particular to this production that you feel this way about, or was this applicable to the PJ movies as well? (If you feel the same way about the PJ movies I might actually agree with you -- I just want a clearer picture of what it is exactly we're talking about. If you'd like to move threads to discuss spoilers, I'm glad to do that as well.
DalMaegil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:12 am
The Greeks and Romans do not hold a monopoly on classical mythology (another term that I chose with precision). The Professor was a classicly-trained student, philologist
and teacher of Norse and Teutonic mythologies, both of which were contemporaries of the Greeks and Romans.
This is a place I'm going to have to politely disagree with you again -- I discussed multiple possible definitions of "classical" in my original post, and settled on the Greco-Roman as being the most likely way you might have meant it. That being said -- lets turn to the OLD, which says of "
classical"
1. relating to classical music
2. widely accepted and used for a long time; traditional in style or idea
3. connected with or influenced by the culture of ancient Greece and Rome
4. (also more frequent classic) with all the features you would expect to find; very typical
5. (of a language) ancient in its form and no longer used in a spoken form
6. simple and attractive*
Now, I have a bone to pick with dictionaries as a whole, and the project of the Oxford in particular -- but if we're agreeing to this as the standard of meaning, I'd once again like to know what usage you're implying here. These mythologies are certainly not related to Classical music (definition 1), I addressed the "traditional" usage (definition 2) in my original post (which I frankly think covers 4 and 5 as well). "connected with [...] the culture of ancient Greece and Rome" is the definition which you seem to disagree on. Do you mean that the Norse and Teutonic mythologies (which, for the record, I agree were contemporaries of the Greeks and Romans) have a simplicity and attractiveness (def. 6) which is shared with Tolkien's books but not the Amazon show? I'd love to hear more, I really am interested to know what you mean.
DalMaegil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:12 am
Ignoring your mis-quoted use of the term "modernist" again, I shall point out that the Professor was a not at all a lover of allegory, from his own very admission.
This is fair -- although Tolkien was entirely content with
applicability and went so far as to warn us not to confuse the two. Other have replied better to this point already -- just want to throw that in.
DalMaegil wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 2:12 am
My language was precise and presented precisely what I intended. As for specific critiques of the show, my employment of such would be in violation of both the letter and spirit of the request that there be no spoilers.
Why don't we move to one of the episode-specific threads, then? (You may have posted there already -- like I said, I've been away). That being said, I want to be entirely clear that my final point was not angled at you or meant to suggest ill-intent. Simply: we are, for better or worse (worse, to be clear -- far far worse) in a world where bad faith critiques use buzzwords and dogwhistles to convey darker ideas "under a fair cloak." I think we should be cautious with our language lest we get mixed up among them. That's all -- I don't mean to suggest you were intentionally making references to any of that.
Again, I'm sorry to see tensions have gotten high in this thread and apologize for any degree to which my post contributed to that. I hope we can all continue to have a thoughtful, nuanced discussion here and lower the personal stakes a bit -- one of the best parts about the Plaza is the way it gathers all of us together, even those with different interpretations of the text.
*side note to my list: could anyone give me a quick tutorial on how the bulleted or numbered list functions in BBcode work? I clicked the preset but had no idea where to go from there. It seems like the numbered list expects another value inside the bracket?