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halfir
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Tuesday, October 05, 2004 at
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High Lord of Imladris
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';Still, I wonder if we shall ever be put into
songs or tales. We';re in one of course; but I mean: put into words, you
know, told by the fireside, or read out of a great big book with red and black letters, years and years afterwards.'; (Sam to Frodo: TT The Stairs of Cirith Ungol - my bold emphasis).
Later this month Professor Verlyn Flieger - a leading Tolkien scholar and author of A Question of Time: Tolkien';s Road to Faerie, and Splintered Light:Logos and Language in Tolkien';s World
will present a paper at a Tolkien conference organized by Marquette
University - in which she argues that Sam';s reference is in fact a
reference by Tolkien to a particular copy of Malory';s Morte D';Arthur.
The phrase "big book with red and black letters"
also describes an actual manuscript. This was the manuscript copy of
Malory';s Morte D';Arthur discovered in the Fellows'; Library of
Winchester College in 1934 and in the process of being edited for
publication by Eugene Vinaver at the time Tolkien was writing.
It is a great big book with red and black letters. Red
is important, and refers not to the elaborate decoration of initial
letters at the head of chapters common in medieval manuscripts, but to a
substantial portion of the book. All the proper names in the Winchester
manuscript are entered in red ink, so that the pages are filled with
"red and black letters."
Sam';s other phrase "years and years afterward" also evokes the whole
Arthurian tradition, the survival in many manuscripts over many
centuries of an historical event and characters. Flieger maintains that
Sam';s description is derived from the Winchester manuscript, and that
this manuscript was a material influence on Tolkien';s concept of the
transmission of story through manuscript that emerges in his own work as
the Red Book of Westmarch.
The manuscript had been found by Walter Oakeshott - a librarian at Winchester College Oxford in 1934.
Oakeshott writes of his find that at the urging of
J.B. Oldham, an expert in 15th-16th century blind stamped book bindings
and Librarian of Shrewsbury School (Kingsland), Oakeshott approached
the Fellows'; Librarian for permission to enter the bedroom of the
College Warden and open the safe containing medieval manuscripts in
order to fill gaps in his knowledge of the Library';s holdings.
He goes on to say:
Accordingly, when at last I approached
the safe with the key in my hands, it was with some excitement. I slid
aside the metal grille, and was dashed to see at a glance that on the
twenty or thirty manuscripts not a single medieval binding remained . . .
It was a disappointment. But one did not get a chance every day to
handle medieval books, so I pulled them out one by one and ran through
one after another, catching a glimpse of an illumination here, or an
interesting-looking text there, but making no systematic observations or
notes. Two or three which were not in Latin but were in English caught
my eye. One was very fat, some 480 leaves, paper not vellum, the text
prose not verse, clearly about King Arthur and his Knights, but
lacking a beginning or an end. Be it admitted to my shame that I had
never read Malory, and my knowledge of him was about as sketchy as my
knowledge of most things has alas had to remain. But I made a vague
mental note of this prose Arthurian manuscript, and passed on to the
next item.
Oakeshott goes on to relate that "by good fortune" a few weeks weeks
later in preparing for a visit from the Friends of the National Library,
he set out an exhibit of early printed books including several by
Wynkyn de Worde (Caxton';s successor in the book trade). In order to
prepare a label for exhibit, Oakeshott consulted a reference work where,
he says, he "came across a sentence which made my heart miss a beat":
"The compilation of the Morte d';Arthur';,
writes Duff, ';was finished in 1469, but of the compiler little is
known save the name . . . No manuscript of the work is known, and though
Caxton certainly revised it, exactly to what extent has never been
settled."
Oakeshott goes on to tell how he went to Wells Bookshop in College Street, bought the Everyman edition of the Morte D';Arthur, and "sought
out the Librarian of the Fellows'; Library and begged from him the key
of the safe again, saying (what was indeed true) that there was some
point I wished to check." With the edition alongside the
manuscript, Oakeshott determined immediately that it was indeed a
version of Malory and quickly discerned the degree to which Caxton had
revised portions of the original author';s work.
Reading
of the discovery in the newspaper, Eugene Vinaver--already
well-established as an Arthurian scholar--quickly motored from
Manchester to Winchester, followed, it is rumored, by "an aircraftman on
a motor-cycle" (T.E. Lawrence). When asked to show Vinaver the
manuscript, Oakeshott showed him the safe but stalled for a short time
awaiting permission from the Warden and the Fellows. In time, Vinaver
made secure his claim to scholarly privilege in the matter; the result
of Vinaver';s research was the 3-volume The Works of Sir Thomas Malory (Oxford, 1947).
Eugene Vinaver was Professor of Medieval
French during my time at Manchester University, in England, and I wish I
had known then of his relationship with Tolkien- for he surely had one.
In 1933 Eugene Vinaver, who had also been
at Leeds when Gordon, Tolkien';s close friend and scholarly
collaborator was Professor of English Language there, followed him to
Manchester where Gordon had been appointed Smith Professor of
English Language and Germanic Philology at the University of Manchester.
(I later knew his wife-Ida Gordon who was a senior lecturer there).
Vinaver collaborated with Gordon on a
comparison of the text of the alliterative Morte D';Arthur and the
Winchester manuscript of Malory which had been discovered-as we have
seen- in 1934.
So the links back to Tolkien are very
close indeed and it will be of great interest to learn what arguments
Professor Flieger will use to link Sam';s comments on the Stairs of
Cirith Ungol to a Malorian manuscript found in the safe of the Warden of
Winchester College Oxford in 1934!
N.B. Please note that
apart from my own personal knowledge of some aspects of this story
my sources are from Marquette University';s website, website
information on Walter Oakeshott, and Tolkien the Medievalist edt.by Jane Chance.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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This is all very interesting, Halfir. I have
never read any Flieger, let me start by saying that. Let me also
say that the following shall simply be my assertion regarding the
mention of the Red Book of Westmarch and Sam�s speech quoted above.
I
have always assumed that since Tolkien aspired, in a sense, to
create a kind of mythology that pleased him more so than Arthurian myth,
through the Lord of the Rings and the great works surrounding it that
the Redbook in this sense was a nod toward his own inspiration.
Much as many aspects of the tales comprise themes / language / geography
or other acknowledgements to these sources. In this I generally
allude to adaptions of cultures and language and myth and folk tale.
More
specifically and to get to the point, I always assumed that the Red
Book would be a nod to the Red Book of Hergest. A fourteenth
century manuscript that, together with the White Book of Rhydderch,
comprises the Mabinogion. This is of prime import to the student
of Arthurian myth. It is a collection of short stories and Welsh
myth and folk tale.
Properly this consists of only four tales, none
of which are Arthurian but it has come to include the Arthurian works of
Gereint and Enid, Culhwch and Olwen, Peredur and Dream of the
Rhonabwy. The most famous translation ( arguably ) of Lady
Charlotte Guest also includes the story of Taliesin.
Alternatively
and perhaps less convincingly, since none other than myself, that I am
aware of, have linked the following, it could allude to another Red Book
entirely, or at the same time, which I think quite
likely. I believe this since Tolkien was so very clever and genius
and knowledgeable of so many alternate fields of literature and
lore.
The Red Book of Appin, asserts Montague Summers, was a manuscript that contained �
a large number of magic runes and incantations for the cure of
cattle disease, the increase of flocks and the fertility of
fields. This document, which must be of immense importance and
interest, when last heard of was ( I believe ) in the possession of
the now - extinct Stewarts of Invernahyle. This strange volume,
so the story ran, conferred dark powers on the owner, who knew what
inquiry would be made ere the question was poised; and the tome was so
confected with the occult arts that he who read it must wear a circlet
of iron around his brow as he turned those mystic pages.�
The �Tradition� of folklore said this tome �was stolen from the devil by a trick�.
Now
I am not casting aspersions upon the use of the Red Book as a symbol,
and remember I do say that there is a dual image here, but should
Tolkien have been privy to the same understanding as Summers regarding
this, the reference to the circlet of iron is certainly worth its weight
in gold, even if only in entertainment value.
Source : History of Witchcraft & Demonology, Montague Summers
Games Master of Minas Tirith
'There are no perfect men, just those with perfect intentions'
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halfir
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Tuesday, October 05, 2004 at
15:35
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High Lord of Imladris
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Naith: Quite fascinating! Until Professor Fleiger's paper
reaches a wider public (I have written to Marquette to discover if and
when they are going to puiblish it and the other papers or if we can
obtain copies of it and the other papers) I will not try and
second-guess what she is going to say.
With regard to your suggestion of the Red Book of Hergest I would draw your attention to Letter # 131 and Tolkien's known aversion to the Arthurian canon.
As to the more recondite link to the Red Book of Appin my own feeling
is that Tolkien, a very devout Roman Catholic would have eschewed
anything of this nature- if he knew about it- but I admit the 'iron
crown' reference is most intriguing.
However, I think that the physical format of the book is what will
play a major in Professor Flieger's argument. Have you any idea in
what format the Red Book of Hergest appeared?
But your thesis is most interesting even though it may - as may
Professor Flieger's -owe more to 'applicability' than to authorial
intent. However, in your favor is the fact that Tolkien was vey au fait with the Welsh Language and with its tales- and this nods in the direction of The Red Book of Hergest.
Altogether a most fascinating and excellent piece of detective work and thinking on your part.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Halfir : The paper in itself will
be most fascinating when you obtain a copy of it. Although I tend
to agree regarding Tolkien�s theoretical and most assured dislike for
the Red Book of Appin itself, the information above is the research of
Montague Summers, himself a Catholic Priest ( 1880 - 1948 ). If
Tolkien had known of this, and the research undertaken, or had in his
own way discovered the tale of the Red Book of Appin, he might have had
the darker part of his imagination stirred to form the link. The
Red Book of Westmarch being Translations from Elvish and that being the
recounting of the War of the Ring and destruction of the One Ring.
The fact that the reader of the Red Book of Appin would have to wear a
circlet of iron to wield the supposed dark power in the book might have
been something that lit a metaporical light bulb in the Tolkien
mind.
To couple that Red Book symbolism to either the Red
Book of Hergest or indeed the Morte D�Arthur, and thereby form two
distinctive links to the Red Book of Westmarch as having some hidden
meaning. The latter would certainly be the reason linked through
Sam�s words and certainly a less dark and more accessible and well known
possibility, also it fits with the language used in Sam�s speech so in
that sense my comment truly is an aside. A fans inner musing.
The
reason I linked the Red Book of Appin to the Red Book of Westmarch is
highlighted above. I certainly surmise that Tolkien, though
not condoning such texts, would know that a text in itself is only as
tainted as the reader allows it to be and as dangerous as the credence
it is granted, and therefore to not necessarily eschew such as a source
of inspiration when creating the dark power of the Rings Trilogy.
However, that said, I doubt Tolkien would be putting that link to the
fore!
So yes, tenuous, yet food for thought, and it was something to share!
I
always thought his aversion to Arthurian myth was more born of
aesthetic frustration and dissatisfaction. I shall have a read of
said letter, thank you for the reference, could have been looking for
that all night!
I would have to do more research as to the form
of the Red Book of Hergest. I know it was written 1375 - 1425 but
was not compiled into the Mabinogion until the mid nineteenth
century. I would need to do some research to discover more.
That did orginally deal only with four tales, Pwyll, Branwen, Manawydan,
and Math, three of which concern the hero named Pryderi. To
reiterate, none of these were Arthurian.
<<
Edit : My apologies if none of this makes any sense, blame my sleep
deprived self, but this is an interesting discussion, and as I said, I
rarely get out of Minas Tirith and P+FF, so I wanted to answer you
speedily. >>
Games Master of Minas Tirith
'There are no perfect men, just those with perfect intentions'
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halfir
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Tuesday, October 05, 2004 at
17:34
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High Lord of Imladris
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Naith: it was something to share!
My dear sir, you do yourself an injustice!
Something to share! It was a veriatble horn of plenty- a cornucopia of
stimulating and thought provoking ideas. I am delighted that you allowed
it to venture outside the walls of Gondor (where I rarely venture as my
distaste for the stewards has tainted my relations with your fair city
and kingdom - even though I know that it is now in good hands!)
BTW did you know that Summers was very much used as a 'source' document for the Dennis Wheatley Black Magic stories- The Devil Rides Out etc?
I will let you know Marquette's response.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Wow halfir! Very exciting news! Do share with us what you find out.
Naith, as always you put forth excellent
information that is well researched and pondered! The quality of your
words is high as always. I'd expect no less. I'm thrilled to see you
interacting with my oldest plaza friend. (erm... not talkin' age  )
~Royal Master Healer of Minas Tirith~
The ROAD goes ever on and on...down from the door where it began...
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halfir
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Wednesday, October 06, 2004 at
02:13
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High Lord of Imladris
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Laie: I should hope not! After both my waistline and my
age passed 46 I started counting backwards! I now admit to 21
-permanently - for both!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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backwards is good!
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Saranna
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Wednesday, October 06, 2004 at
02:42
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This is brilliant stuff - why have I gone and discovered it just as I
have to dash out to my exercise class for elderly ladeis? Don't go
away! 
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halfir
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Wednesday, October 06, 2004 at
02:43
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High Lord of Imladris
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I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Wednesday, October 06, 2004 at
08:18
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Halfir, I am fascinated by your argument and indeed wholly convinced. I
feel, however, that the suggestions of Naith are also interesting.
When I first read LOTR long ago my assumption was that the Red Book of
Hengest was being evoked, one of those associations that JRRT liked to
play with (Crickhollow/Crickhowell, for another example). However, your
description of the Malory text, which sadly I have never seen, does
make it seem 99.99% clear to me that Sam's reference is to that work.
Did Tolkien see it while Vinaver was editing, or do we not know that?
Perhaps I could find the answer to this following question in the
Letters, which I have not read for some years~ (the Plaza as an
insturment that prods one into re-reading would be a possible thread) ~
but could you clarify for me whether JRRT's dislike was actually toward
the Arthurian cycle per se, or toward it's "Fenchification" in the
Middle Ages? That is, was he trying to retriev something that he felt
had become obscured in Arthurian legend, or more radically, trying to
provide what he believed that cycle never to have provided.
Dear me, what a pompous sentence. I have every confidence in your power to decipher it.
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halfir
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Wednesday, October 06, 2004 at
16:34
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High Lord of Imladris
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Did Tolkien see it while Vinaver was editing, or do we not know that?
Hopefully Professor Flieger will throw some light
on that aspect. There is of course the connection between Gordon-
Tolkien's close associate, and Vinaver, and all three were at Leeds.
Also C S Lewis reviewed (disagreeably I think) Vinaver';s edition (
or rather his conclusions) when it was published in 1947 and Lewis and
Tolkien were also close. And Vinaver himself refers to attending a
lecture by Tolkien at Oxford during the period of his work on Malory, so
I suspect in the close environment of Oxford University Tolkien was
well aware of the work Vinaver was doing and either had sight of or had
graphic description of Malory';s discovered work. (It would be nice to
know if Vinaver was ever invited to an Inkling's meeting!)
However, that is my supposition- I hope Verlyn Flieger wil give us detailed confirmation.
My biggest irritation is that Vinaver- then I think Professor
Emeritus was- as a fairly old man still at Manchester when I was- and I
had no idea of his connection with Tolkien. Of Ida Gordon';s I did - and
she was no fan!
Tolkien';s hostility to the Arthurian canon- which is set out perhaps at its crispest in Letter # 131
- the famous ';Waldman'; letter appears to revolve around the fact that
it is a ';foreign'; transplant which does not adequately reflect
England- but rather Britain; that its apporach to ';faerie'; is too
excessive; and most fundamentally that it is overtly Christian:
';For reasons I will not elaborate, that seems to
me fatal. Myth and fairy-story must, as all art, reflect and contain in
solution elements of moral and religious truth (or error) , but not
explicit, not in the known form of the ';primary'; real world. (I am
speaking, of course, of our present situation, not of ancient pagan,
pre-Christian days. And I will not repeat what I tried to say in my
essay, which you read).
(Unfortunately HC does not tell us what essay
Tolkien is referring to, but I am assuming it is the Lang Memorial
lecture from 1939 ';On Fairy Stories'; which was first published in 1947
in ';Essays Presented to Charles Williams';)
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Thursday, October 07, 2004 at
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Thank you, Halfir - Tolkien can always overthrow any assumptions one makes- by objecting
to overtly Christian content, for example, when the simplistic view
would be that as a Roman Catholic he would approve it. I
understand your frsutration over never having approached Vinaver on the
subject of Tolkien. And envy you mixing with such legendary
beasts! Having failed Oxford entrance due to my small Latin and no
Greek at all, I was educated at Bedford College, when it was no longer
for women only, under the redoubtable Kathleen Tillotson. hot on
Chaucer but not an environment in which one mentioned authors who had
not yet done the decent thing, and died!
Yes, It must surely be On fairy-tales. I hope there will be more to this thread, it is fascinating.
"In
sorrow we must go, but not in despair. For Behold! We are not bound
forever to the circles of the world,and beyond them is more than
memory."
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Apprentice of Gondor
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i believe your reason might be valid enough but to me lotr is just
magical interpretation of world war 2 i.e. when tolkein wrote the book .
just assume mordor to be nazi germany of that time well italy can as
well account for isengard gondor obviously would be england nd rohan be
america or russia. anyways to one his own. it is just a point of view.
what say?
death is just the beginning
AMIN OTHAR
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halfir
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Thursday, October 07, 2004 at
03:19
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High Lord of Imladris
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mil35hokum: I say- without being unkind- that you have not
read the Introduction to FOTR when Tolkien makes it very clear that it
has nothing whatsoever to do with WW2. Aspects of WW1 in the form of
input to the character of Sam Gamgee and the foulness of the Dead
Marshes and Mordor are there- but they are resonances- not direct
comparisons.
Tolkien hated allegory in any shape or form and even the Malory
example that I have given- and we have yet to read what Professor
Flieger says - is not a template that Tolkien copies- simply a literary
source that - if it turns out to be true - inspired him. No slavish
copying took place, and while there is some symbolism in LOTR that is
the most there is.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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halfir
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Thursday, October 07, 2004 at
03:33
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna:
under the redoubtable Kathleen Tillotson.
hot on Chaucer but not an environment in which one mentioned authors who
had not yet done the decent thing, and died!
A very famous name! Professor Emeritus of Bedford
College and a Vice President of the British Academy and an expert on
Dickens, as well as Chaucer and Drayton if I am not mistaken.
I laughed out loud at your who had not yet done the decent thing, and died! comment. I fear this is still the case at many universities even now that the Master has died!
Academics dislike writers who are popular! Have you read John Carey's The Intellectuals and The Masses- Shippey quotes him in Tolkien: Author of the Century. Carey is scathing of what he calls the 'literary Sonnenkinder". I totally agree!
I am awaitng a reply from Marquette as to availability of papers or
of their publication- but the conference hasn't yet taken place. I'd
love to be there.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Thursday, October 07, 2004 at
03:51
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No, No don't give me any more to read! Well not yet. I must
look up more Flieger. Your previous refs, are not, of course, in
stock in the library sevice where I work, so I am seeking to
mobilise the Interlending squad - a small race of orc-like people living
mostly in the dark - -
Yes, Dickens also - though I never
personally benfitted from her Drayton knowledge. I used to run
into her in the BM when she was 90-ish and still working. Her
memorial at Senate House was wonderful. A serious role-model for
generations of women.
But on the subject of Tolkien and Malory
- I do feel there is more to be said, beyond the big black and red
letters, but as I supposed to be working I had better leave this for
now! 
"In
sorrow we must go, but not in despair. For Behold! We are not bound
forever to the circles of the world,and beyond them is more than
memory."
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halfir
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Thursday, October 07, 2004 at
04:03
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High Lord of Imladris
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There would be a link to Malory through C.S.Lewis as Lewis was a great fan of Malory.
Other than a brief reference by Tolkien in Letter # 145 in which a comaprison of him with Malory in a review (which he showed to the Warden of Merton) inter alia got him a better college room, there is no reference in the Letters to Malory.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Thursday, October 07, 2004 at
06:31
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Well, but I woffle so much - I believe I meant that I see parallels with Malory's reworking of the Matter of Britain - as JRRT reworked the the mythology of England. Let me try to clarify - though I am still supposed to be working!
Malory
started off just copying from sources, and you can see in the ealry
stages that he is functioning almost like a scribe. During the
pgorgress of the vast "Works" (OUP single-vol is the one I use), you can
see him thrashing out something resembling modern English prose as he
gets more involved with what he is doing, starts to write rather than
transcribe, and finally ends up using words instead of copying them
("Ah, Syr Launcelot, there thou lyest . . . " etc). 
Now,
Tolkien set off writing tales to provide the context for his languages
and mythology, and thanks to CT giving us so much of the early draught
material, we can see a parallel development taking place, as the
philogist evolves into the fiction writer. ("Nice Master." )
(I like the weepy bits!) And what a comfort it is to a struggling
writer to see how dire some of those early draughts were, and to hear
such statements as "I had no idea at first who Strider was," or words to
that effect. So this is my tentative idea of a sort of affinity
lying beyond the lettering!
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halfir
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Thursday, October 07, 2004 at
18:39
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna: You put me to shame! My simplistic assertion that:There would be a link to Malory through C.S.Lewis as Lewis was a great fan of Malory. overlooks
the obvious fact that Tolkien - well-versed in Medieval Literature
himself -would certainly have studied and reflected on Malory!
Thanks for the timely intervention which saved me from making further simplistic gaffes!
Whether or not he saw the book that Vinaver was
editing I do not know - perhaps Professor Fleiger will help us there-
but he certainly was aware of the Malorian epic and you facscinating
extrapolation as to how it might have influenced him more directly than I
had supposed makes interesting reading and gives food for thought.
Moerover, Lewis'; own literary interests lay in that direction and
doubtless the name of Malory came up fairly frequently at the meetings
of the Inklings.
And I loved your perceptive comment:
as the philogist evolves into the fiction writer
He was truly seized by the ';awen'; of the Bards!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Friday, October 08, 2004 at
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Your approbation, as ever, is music to my ears. I am still adding to my reading-list at a rate of 3 Halfir suggestions per minute - -
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halfir
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Friday, October 08, 2004 at
06:07
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High Lord of Imladris
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Then your occupation must be a boon!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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halfir
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Friday, October 08, 2004 at
17:32
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Saranna
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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 at
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Thanks Halfir - you are working hard to keep us up to
date. I have decided to subscribe to the new annual review of
Tolkien scholarship, but suspect that lore-wise I shall still be in the
Shire while you are crossing the Misty Mountains cold!
"In
sorrow we must go, but not in despair. For Behold! We are not bound
forever to the circles of the world,and beyond them is more than
memory."
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halfir
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Tuesday, October 12, 2004 at
23:18
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High Lord of Imladris
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I'll remember to take some thermal long-johns!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 at
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Fine - I shall stay warm just running to keep up! 
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halfir
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Wednesday, October 13, 2004 at
04:08
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High Lord of Imladris
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I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Thursday, October 14, 2004 at
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BUMP! Someone please get this back on track - stop me and Halfir (I mean Halfir and I) waffling on!
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Saranna
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Friday, October 22, 2004 at
06:49
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Since no-one has done so, I shall have to commit a double-post just to let halfir know that I have got hold of a copy of Poetic Diction
- last read 38 years ago. I suspect I understood far less of it
than I thought at the time! So the rereading will be good for me! 
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Heron
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Friday, October 22, 2004 at
16:51
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I will not presume to address any of the points made above, not being
a scholar of "logos," the Mabinogion, the cycles of either Chaucer or
Arthur, or someone who can accurately use "exegesis" in a sentence.
Which is why, Halfir, although I admire the breadth of your learning,
frankly, I tend to avoid the threads you open.
However, I thought the following might be of general
interest. Dr. John Dexter of Providence College made an
interesting point in his article "Invented Texts: Authority Conferred by
the Non-Existent Author" (Ontological Linguistics, 10:3,
1967, pp. 398-432) Assuming, that is, that one has
the stamina to get through all 30 pp (the last 4 are references) of his
obscenely dense verbiage to find said point.
In essence, he states that many authors have claimed to base their
works on texts which exist only in the imagination. Tolkien, obviously;
also HP Lovecraft is another well-known example. (More recently,
authors such as Laurie King have employed the same device, though she
began writing well after Dexter wrote his piece.)
Providence College, being in Lovecraft�s home town, has an
extensive collection of Lovecraftiana and it was while working on this
that Dexter made a remarkable discovery. Lovecraft�s Necronomicon,
of course, is his own invention, as is the entire history of "the mad
Arab", Abdul Alhazred, its alleged author. Lovecraft even went so
far as to invent a second book, the Liber Logaeth, which was supposedly an English translation of the Necronomicon from its original Arabic.
So far, nothing that any casual reader of Lovecraft, Smith, Howard,
etc., doesn�t know. However, in his article, Dexter states
that the Prov Coll library contains a book in an archaic form
of Arabic (carbon dates to pre-Muhammed) that contains various
blasphemous prayers and rituals to Angra Mainu (Ahriman). Angra Mainu
and Morgoth, incidentally, bear considerable resemblance as the
perverters-of-creation, though I�m sure that�s due to the nature of evil
rather than to the Zoroastrian mythose being a strong source for
Tolkien.
Furthermore, this book, according to Dexter, is a large book written in red and black
ink. Lovecraft and Tolkien were (roughly) contemporaries and Lovecraft
was an absurdly prolific letter-writer. Perhaps Tolkien�s book is a nod
to the Necronomicon.
<Nessa Edit: Welcome Back. It is good to see you again!>
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halfir
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Friday, October 22, 2004 at
23:43
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High Lord of Imladris
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Heron: Great to see you in General Lore again- we have
missed you. The last time I recall our meeting was your excellent thread
on the Power of Song and Chant.
That is indeed very interesting information regarding Dexter's
comment on Lovercraft and the book in 'red and black ink'. However, I
tend to see it as coincidental rather than as impacting on Tolkien, and
still find Professor Flieger's thesis persausive.
Douglas A. Anderson who has written widely about Tolkien's sources (as well as editing the Annotated Hobbit)
makes no mention at all of Lovercraft as having been in Tolkiken's
range of fantasy reading, and nothing I have read in the Letters
or in any of the many Tolkien biographies and studies of his literary
inspirations makes any mention of Lovercraft, whereas he knew Vinaver
and was at Oxford at the time Vinaver was editing the Malory work.
It would, however, be interesting to know what Professor Flieger thinks of the idea. Why don't you email her?
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Heron
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Sunday, October 24, 2004 at
17:00
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Halfir: you're very kind! My comment above aside (and my apologies if it
sounded terse; I meant to say simply that I generally have little
that's meaningful to contribute after you present your evidence), I
enjoy the lore threads but seldom have the time to research the
questions at hand. I will email the Prof. you mention.
Grey Company Captain
TG Co-Supervisor
Steward of Dor Moretirith
Bears the Quill of Gondor
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halfir
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Sunday, October 24, 2004 at
18:08
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High Lord of Imladris
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Heron: There
is a Kent State Universty Website (publishers of Flieger's book
'Splintered Light) and from that you might be able to get an email
address for her, or, more likely - as has happened with me in other
similar instances- they will forward your message and if you are lucky
you'll get a reply!
www.kentstateuniversitypress.com
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This is an excellent and erudite discussion.
So that it does not get lost, I would like to move this thread to Ad
Lore. Will you permit me to do so?
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Saranna
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Monday, October 25, 2004 at
11:52
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"I generally have little that's meaningful to contribute after you present your evidence" - Heron, we all know that feeling.
As for Ad Lore, hooray and three cheers, say YES, halfir!
"In
sorrow we must go, but not in despair. For Behold! We are not bound
forever to the circles of the world,and beyond them is more than
memory."
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Heron
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Monday, October 25, 2004 at
14:02
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Hi Bael! Good to see you again!
Grey Company Captain
TG Co-Supervisor
Steward of Dor Moretirith
Bears the Quill of Gondor
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halfir
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Monday, October 25, 2004 at
14:51
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna: How could I ever deny my good friend Bael anything- especially as she always asks after the event? And I hope your Basic Lore Goldberry thread moves here too- it is a subject close to Bear�s
heart and on which she and I have conferred in an earlier thread which I
will reference if and when your Goldberry thread moves here. It�s a
great thread BTW!
<Nessa edit: Mea Culpa...but
in my defense, I throw my "hasty" little self on the mercy of the
Council. and humbly point out that I did wait almost two
hours...so I tried to be patient... >
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Saranna
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Tuesday, October 26, 2004 at
07:48
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"So here we all are in Ad Lore," said Saranna wonderingly, "and it's all feasting and fun . . . "
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Oh my, my. Halfir! You have touched on a weakness. I
was inspired to learn French after reading an English copy of Le
Morte'. Gimme a few days, and I'll pick you to pieces.
Maybe I'll support you, maybe not. But I'll be here.
It's a promise. I mean that.
Hmmmm...... In Halfirian......ab imo pectore, adsum.
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halfir
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Thursday, October 28, 2004 at
02:14
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High Lord of Imladris
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Nay: Good to see you back again. I look forward to your contribution!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Saturday, October 30, 2004 at
07:37
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I am not in any position to make comments about Lovecraft, I fear.
However, reverting to the Malory MS, I wonder if it was a very subtle
reference to/acknowledgement of the ethereal ties binding LOTR and the
Arthurian saga? No, everyone who drops in, I do NOT mean the LOTR is an
allegory of Arthur! Tolkien felt that England lacked its own
mythological dimension, and did not seem to feel that the Arthurian
cycle filled the bill. It may have originated in Celtic times, and in
the British Isles, but once carried overseas by fleeing Britons, and
thence picked up by courtly French writers, it lost, he felt, its
Englishness. Nevertheless, the echoes of Arthur are there. Indeed,
long ago when I was very young, I would have assumed that any book
called "The return of the King" must be about Arthur, (or just possibly
the Stuarts). Superficial elements; a King who returns from obscurity; a
wizard; a knightly caste; magic both good and evil; powerful female
figures from the otherworld; a waste land; a small and unlikely hero.
What lies beneath? Are there any deeper resonances of Arthur to be
found? Over to you - -
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halfir
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Saturday, October 30, 2004 at
15:57
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna: It is interesting to read your thoughts as I was
about to post a comment from Jared Lobdell regarding the Malorian
influence on Tolkien as a writer.
In his book England and Always (a title taken from a phrase of Tolkien's) Lobdell has this to say:
'Tolkien's persistent use of 'and' to begin
sentences, and especially to begin paragrpahs, is strongly reminiscent
of Malory. So, likewise, is the general 'medievalism' of his tone -
indeed, it is the 'Malorian' quality to his prose that has, I believe,
led to the widepsread view that the Lord of the Rings is a medieval work'. {England and Always- Chptr. The Philologists World}
Lobdell - who was writing in 1981 - did not subscribe to the then
critical fashiion of identifying LOTR with the medieval world- not
indeed the A-S one- he had a very differnt take which I will return to
in a later thread.
However, his comments provide some further weight to the argument
that Vinaver's editing of Malory and the Red Book of
Westmarch could be inter-related as the Malorian stylistic influence
on Tolkien is perhaps greater than at first originally suspected, given
his apparent unhappiness with the Arthurian canon as a 'mythology for
England'.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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halfir
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Saturday, October 30, 2004 at
20:33
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna: Through the kindness of Oin - in another context and another thread, my attention has been drawn to Letter # 165 where further ';evidence'; of a Tolkienian ';Arthurian connection'; is given.
';I write alliterative verse with pleasure , though I have published litttle beyond the fragments in The Lord of the Rings, except ';The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth'; (in Essays and Studies of the English Association, 1963, London, John Murray) recently twice broadcast by the BBC : a dramatic dialogue on the nature of the ';heroic'; and the ';chivalrous';. I still hope to finish a long poem on The Fall of Arthur in the same measure."3 (My bold emphasis)
N.B. The reference (3) in the text to pp. 168-9 of Carpenter';s
Biography is incorrect. The references in that volume to the poem in
question should be to pages 224-5).
Tolkien abandoned the ';Fall of Arthur'; in the mid 1930';s (Carpeneter-ibid) though as this letter shows as late as 1955 he was still hoping to complete it. In fact it remained unfinished.
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Saranna
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Sunday, October 31, 2004 at
10:32
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Thank you indeed, halfir - yes, I remember reading about "The fall of
Arthur", and so much regret its not coming to fruition. It would have
been interesting, apart from anything else, to see a 20th century
alliterative poem and whether that could work.
"In sorrow we must
go, but not in despair. For Behold! We are not bound forever to the
circles of the world,and beyond them is more than memory."
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Istari Scholar
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I find Heron's mention of
another book in red and black intriguing. My first thought after
seeing the first two posts was that it is v. likely that a great deal of
this type of thing was subsummed by Tolkien. I have seen the Red
Book of Helgast described as the "influence" before...although I cannot
say where.That there is a White Book of Rhydderch and The Red Book of
Appin is a revelation to one educated in the states.
My second thought was that the Bible, at least
since the 1970's in the states, has the words of Jesus printed in Red
and the rest of the bible in black. I would imagine as a
tradition, it was picked up from contemporary literature (or verse visa
as the case may be). It seems that it may have been a device of
the middle ages...perhaps used differently depending on the nature of
the literature.
Tolkiens natural inclination, as with many other so called sources, might be to create the 'prototype'.
"Don't
expect to be rewarded if you tell the truth. Hypocrisy no longer has
any power to shock us. We encounter it every day. But we encounter the
truth so seldom that it shocks and embarasses us.
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RedEye
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Tuesday, November 02, 2004 at
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My thoughts are in line with Goldenhair's.
I too wonder if it is the actual Malory';s Morte D';Arthur, that
Tolkien is alluding to with the "red and black lettters" comment of Sam,
or if such a style is common to other pre-printing press texts such as
the bibles that Goldenhair
alludes to. Most of my reading of medieval texts was long ago and
of secondary rather than primary sources. Perhaps we will be so
forturnate as to have a bonafide medieval scholar in our midst (or at
least a student at a University who can ask a medieval scholar) who can
tell us if such writing styles are common in other texts.
<O>
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halfir
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Wednesday, November 03, 2004 at
18:22
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High Lord of Imladris
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Even if they are,and of course we yet await Professor Flieger's
aanlysis- theTolkien/Gordon/Vinaver/Lewis connection and the actual
time-frame, to me offers a very compelling argument in favor of
Flieger's proposition.
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Saranna
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Thursday, November 04, 2004 at
03:02
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Moi aussi. 
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Istari Scholar
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Yes I eagerly await.
H, where do you find what events like this are
happening around the world and what other sites re:JRRT do you favor in
your search for quality articles?
"Don't expect to be
rewarded if you tell the truth. Hypocrisy no longer has any power to
shock us. We encounter it every day. But we encounter the truth so
seldom that it shocks and embarasses us.
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Saranna
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Sunday, November 07, 2004 at
09:58
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One way to other sites I find very useful is simply to follow the links
button at the left of the Plaza pages. Otherwise, if I get a hint -
such as learning from halfir about Professor Fleiger - I just Google
that name or topic and see what comes up. There are loads of sites and
of course some of them are rubbish! But it's easy to spot the good
ones.
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halfir
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Sunday, November 07, 2004 at
16:50
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High Lord of Imladris
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goldenhair: I don't use too many sites, but the ones I favor are:
1. The Tolkien Society
2. Marquette University (Marquette is the home of a huge collection of Tolkien papers and related collections)
3. BBC News- arts and literature section
4. Surfing under the name of Tolkien and doing a quick skim of what new stuff appears to be there.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Istari Scholar
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Thanks
"Don't
expect to be rewarded if you tell the truth. Hypocrisy no longer has
any power to shock us. We encounter it every day. But we encounter the
truth so seldom that it shocks and embarasses us.
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Saranna
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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 at
05:41
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HALFIR (and anyone else interested) - I am following the trend of this
thread in getting further off the point! However, it was here that
halfir suggested I re-read "Poetic Diction" and read "Language and
myth". Having now done both, I want to thank you for the references, I
have greatly enjoyed Cassirer's book in particular as it was new to me.
I have put below the link to Guardian Review's abridged version of
Paterson's T.S. Eliot lecture in case you have missed it. It is a
little - well, I have to say elitist but that's the public librarian
speaking! In what he has to say of the nature of poetry, he seems to me
to hark back to both Barfield and Cassirer in places.
http://books.guardian.co.uk/poetry/features/0,,1344654,00.html
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halfir
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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 at
06:03
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna: Thanks for the reference. I will follow it up with interest.
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Saranna
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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 at
06:12
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Oh, HI! Thought you were hors de combat - maybe it's the time zones
confusing me, but nice to see you anyway (SEE? strange how one says
that on the Plaza!)
"In sorrow we must go, but not in despair.
For Behold! We are not bound forever to the circles of the world,and
beyond them is more than memory."
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halfir
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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 at
14:35
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna: Just dipping in and out at present- sadly no time to apply full concentration!
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halfir
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Wednesday, November 10, 2004 at
19:35
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna: Your url is being refused. Can you please check it again- I was surprised to see commas in the url line.
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Saranna
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Thursday, November 11, 2004 at
03:58
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Oh dear- perhaps you would get there better by following the steps I
took - I was a bit worried when I copy/pasted it as it seemed to have
strange characters. I Googled "Guardian Unlimited", went into
"Books" then "Review". I tried to locate it under the date (Review
6/11/04) but in the end had to enter Paterson as an author
search wtihin the site, and it was there. They are listed by date,
latest last, so you should be able to reach it that way. Sorry my
short cut was no help.
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halfir
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Thursday, November 11, 2004 at
04:05
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High Lord of Imladris
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I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Thursday, November 18, 2004 at
04:20
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Did you reach it? was it worth the effort?
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halfir
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Thursday, November 18, 2004 at
04:22
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High Lord of Imladris
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Sadly I couldn't find anything like it on several somewhat abortive attempts!
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Saranna
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Thursday, November 18, 2004 at
04:47
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Would you like me to email you the text?
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halfir
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Thursday, November 18, 2004 at
14:53
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High Lord of Imladris
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Saranna: That would be most kind.
[email protected]
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Saranna
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Friday, November 19, 2004 at
05:54
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I shall do so at the weekend!
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halfir
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Friday, November 19, 2004 at
06:37
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High Lord of Imladris
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Many thanks!
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Saranna
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Saturday, November 20, 2004 at
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Posted! Hope it is worth it after all this build-up!
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halfir
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Saturday, November 20, 2004 at
18:02
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High Lord of Imladris
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Sarrana: Your kind posting apears to have got lost in the
great maw of cyberspace! I wonder if I could burden you to post it to me
again?
[email protected]
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Saranna
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Sunday, November 21, 2004 at
03:37
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O, Eru save us! I will try at once. (Mutter mutter).
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Saranna
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Sunday, November 21, 2004 at
03:44
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Well - it says "sent" but it said that yesterday. Grrrrr. Please let me know.
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halfir
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Monday, November 22, 2004 at
04:22
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High Lord of Imladris
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My dear Saranna: A positive cornucopia of sense and
sensibility- though I see what you mean about elitist- although that to
me is not a pejorative word but a positive one.
I recall my feelings when I first read the great Julien Benda's wonderful essay Le Trahison des Clercs - The Betrayal of the Intellectuals - Paterson has a resonance of that. As he does also of this comment:
When hatred of culture becomes itself a part of culture, the life of the mind loses all meaning.
�Alain Finkielkraut, The Undoing of Thought
And I was always a lover of TS Eliot even if Edith Sitwell did call him 'a poet of the market place' - a complete misnomer if ever there was one, (but then she was clearly a nut-case, Plantagenet bloodline though she be!) Facade through a megaphone- glorious eccentricity! But I digress dreadfully!
I pounced delightfully on the following:
"for a reader to be astonished
by the original phrase it must already be partly
familiar to them, if they are to register the
transformation;"
silly workshop exercises where you write a poem in the
voice of your socks
the valorisation of
talent itself was felt to be elitist and undemocratic
The populists, on one side, purvey a kind of
straight-faced recognition comedy, and have no need
either for originality or epiphany. On the other side
we have the avant-garde so desperate for transcendence
they see it everywhere: they are fatally in the grip
of an adolescent sublime, where absolutely anything
will blow your mind, as your mind, in its state of
recrudescent virginity, is permanently desperate to be
blown. The Norwich phone book or a set of log tables
would serve them as well as their Prynne, in whom they
seem able to detect as many shades of mindblowing
confusion as Buddhists do the absolute
when we were born, everything was pretty much
everything else. The breast was you, your mother the
breast, and the back garden your mother, the world was
an absolute and indivisible unity. There was nothing
to tell you otherwise. This perception is atemporal,
since the perception of the passing of time is
dependent first on the perception of difference, of an
asymmetrical and consecutive series of events, which
we did not then know.
There are also shades of Barfield in some of his comments such as:
the world was an absolute and indivisible unity.
I must certainly read more of this man- thank you so much for the introduction.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Olme
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Monday, November 22, 2004 at
07:43
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Istari Scholar
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Halfir, I certainly do not mean to take this
further off course, and i'm not sure where i could've posted this that
you woul've read it. But when did you first read Eugenius
Philalethes(Thomas Vaughan), and if you read a lot of his works, or
alchemy texts in general. Thanks
Orthatham Ud�n
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halfir
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Monday, November 22, 2004 at
15:24
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High Lord of Imladris
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Olme: I first read Thomas Vaughan at University- more years
ago than I care to remember when one of my special subjects was the
English Civil War and 17th century Constitutional History. About 1960 to
be exact.
And I read quite a lot of his stuff- ill-remembered now- other than for Coelum Terrae which I re-read about two years ago again in search of information for the ';gold breeds gold'; comment that Tolkien makes regarding the dwarven rings- which Geir has basically helped me with most recently with her excellent input.
It was that second latest reading that provided me with my signature.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Olme
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Monday, November 22, 2004 at
18:48
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Istari Scholar
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Halfir. I have absalutely loved your signature since you and I have
been members, so i finally decided to search for it and i am
reading Coelum Terrae right now(little by little in school). I
find a lot of his ideas intrigueing, a brilliant writer and
alchemist(though it's a bit over my head, it's food for thought), but i
won't put anything else in this forum. Your signature fits your
posts very excellently.
Orthatham Ud�n
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halfir
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Monday, November 22, 2004 at
18:54
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High Lord of Imladris
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Your signature fits your posts very excellently
Thank you, kind sir. And I agree Coelum Terrae is somewhat heavy going- you are not alone in your belief!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 at
06:12
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Well, halfir, I must say I am pleased that you enjoyed the Paterson, and
I do know what you mean by elitist not necessarily being a "bad" word.
Working all my life as a librarian in areas that have to be described
as culturally deprived, I try to hold that in my mind AS WELL AS the
need to encourage children who have never been exposed to richness of
thought or word, into feeling that they can, knowing that they can, play
with their language and make things with it. (Not necessarily invoking
the socks, though!). Yet of course the quality of what one may then
reach towards, must be inviolate. Making things accessible doesn't mean
making them easier. Poor literacy levels are so closely linked to the
dumbing-down (in the west) of the texts from which children learn to
read.
"Contempt for culture - - " - O, dangerous ground - must eschew the
temptation towards an overtly political discussion. But yes, yes, yes!
Must here confess that is the first thing by Paterson that I have ever read. I too shall seek further.
Returning nearer the source of this long-flowing thread, I have just
received my copy of the first "Toklien Studies" and am delighted in
particular with Nagy's "The adapted text" - he even refers to Malory as a
comparison with JRRT's evocation of the "lost poetry of Beleriand" to
give a sense of the prose tales as being adapted from ME antiquity. Not
quite the same as my point above, but hearteningly confirmatory.
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halfir
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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 at
06:27
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High Lord of Imladris
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When hatred of culture becomes itself a part of culture, the life of the mind loses all meaning.
�Alain Finkielkraut, The Undoing of Thought
Saranna: Alain Finkielkraut is a brilliant younger version
of the great Julien Benda -whom I adore. Benda';s great essay on the
intellectual betrayal was written in 1927 or 28- I can';t remmeber which
- and Finkielkraut wrote in about 1988.Both are children of all that
was best about the ';Eclairecissement ';- Enlightenment
- and both decry the denial of reason in much of modern art and
literature. They make somewhat strange companions to Tolkien and Lewis
and men of the Old West - yet they all share the same concern -so
brilliantly expressed by Dag Hamarskjold about Respect for the
Word -which I quoted in the Hall of Fire -3 thread with reagrd to the
Voice of Saruman:
Respect for the word is the first commandment in
the discipline by which a man can be educated to maturity -
intellectual, emotional and moral.
Respect for the word- to employ it with scrupulous
care and an incorruptible heartfelt love of truth - is essential if
there is to be any growth in a society or in a human race.
To misuse the word is to show contempt for man. It
undermines the bridges and poisons the wells. It causes Man to regress
down the long path of his own evolution.';
Amen, to that!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 at
11:58
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Indeed - how moving, thank you halfir.
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halfir
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Tuesday, November 23, 2004 at
14:03
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High Lord of Imladris
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My
pleasure. It is both passionate and beautiful.And, it is
indeed doubly poignant given the tragic way in which Dag Hamarskjold
died (or was assassinated!).
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 at
02:56
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Yes - I was at school then, O Valar how long ago - I recall how sobered we all were by it.
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halfir
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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 at
03:20
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High Lord of Imladris
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How sadly true- a great light was stolen from the world.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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*makes a point to stay under 200 chars.* Hafir, you�ve already
touched on the majority of the points I had hoped to make, and I have
broken a promise. I�ll see you next time around. I�m sorry.
Vah! Denuone Latine loquebar? Me ineptum. Interdum modo elabitur.
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halfir
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Wednesday, November 24, 2004 at
03:33
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High Lord of Imladris
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Nay: Sorry you couln't join us earlier - but it's great to hear
from you anyway. Don't stay away too long. You are sorely missed-
though I understand the situation. My best wishes to you and yours.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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halfir
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Saturday, November 27, 2004 at
17:37
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High Lord of Imladris
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As an infromational for those who might like to get in touch with
Professor Verlyn Flieger- although I doubt she will agree to us being
given sight of her paper until it sees the light of fromal publication
by Marquette -she is contactable at:
[email protected]
This is not an invasion of her privacy as she is readily contactable as an Editor of Tolkien Studies at this address.
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Monday, November 29, 2004 at
13:48
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So she is - and how polite and kind she was to me when I had to email
her on an admin point when the TS office email would not respond!
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Thinking of the 'Red Book of Wesmarch' only from the p.o.v. of its design which (as evident from the above posts here ) hints to the style
books were "produced" in past times (Medieval times ), I was
tempted to look around and see if I can find some proofs for my thought
- namely that this was indeed a preferred and popular style of
presenting books in those times. "Fashion" trend - if you like.
My "theory" is that by ""big book with red and black letters" Sam
might've meant only and simply the way books looked in ancient
times. The books of Medieval times, telling tales and legends and
historical events - all seem to have been designed following the
"fashion"-trend of those times. And this 'style' was, IMO,
characteristic not only for Western Europe, but for the whole
civilized world then.
To back up my "theory" I looked for some info about ancient
manuscripts from my region (the Balkans) - to learn how books here
were produced in those times and how they looked like ...
Here is something to look at and read. ( on the menu left, you can also open "Decoration")
http://www.gslis.utexas.edu/~slavman/manuscriptprod.html
Also, randomly googling for appearance of medieval manuscripts, I
picked up some of the first examples offered and they, too, seem to
prove that this style was the typical one for books from those times.
Have a look at them and notice the free and frequent use of the combination "red-black":
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/lat/th/d/1000/04601100.jpg
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/jpegs/lat/th/b/1000/00401048.jpg
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/medieval/images/85.jpg
So, to sum it up, based on the above, and I am sure that there are numerous other sources out there, Verlyn Flieger's theory :
"in which she argues that Sam';s reference is in fact a reference by Tolkien to a particular copy of Malory's Morte D'Arthur."
- isn't it a questionable one?
Because, her theory obviously refers to the outlook of the Malory's manuscript.
But
... in fact many other manuscripts might've looked in the same way!
That was obviously the "fashion" -trend the those-times "publishers"
followed.
Just some thoughts, you know .....
Ai! Aniron!
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halfir
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Sunday, December 05, 2004 at
04:18
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High Lord of Imladris
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Aldoriana: So, to sum it up, based on the above, and I am sure that there are numerous other sources out there, Verlyn Flieger's theory :
"in which she argues that Sam';s reference is in fact a reference by Tolkien to a particular copy of Malory's Morte D'Arthur."
- isn't it a questionable one?
We are in danger of running before we can walk.
We are all becoming far too speculative over a thesis that we haven't
yet read. And Professor Flieger is a scholar of some eminence whom I am
sure would have taken the very fair points you make into account.
But before we burn the heretic-or her 'books' I suggest we need to wait and found out what she has said-in detail. And that, sadly, won't be for some time yet as the publication date is set for 2005 at the earliest!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Fair words, Lord of Imladris!
I just wanted to share some thoughts on the issue!
And ... 'heretic' I think a book can never be! It all depends on the point of view. Right?
Ai! Aniron!
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halfir
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Sunday, December 05, 2004 at
14:41
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High Lord of Imladris
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Aldoriana: I agree- but tell that to the religious bigots!
I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Oh, poor them, if they met me - a typical representative of the most confused generation in the newer history of Europe!
Haven't I felt in full the theory of relativity on my own back .... meaning - mind !!!
Ai! Aniron!
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halfir
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Tuesday, December 07, 2004 at
02:05
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High Lord of Imladris
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I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble
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Saranna
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Wednesday, December 08, 2004 at
03:30
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I, as is my wont, say both yea and nay - I don't see why you should not
both be right. Indeed, many MSS were similarly coloured, but I feel
what halfir has demonstrated about the close chronolgy of the
discovery/JRRT's writing, is very convincing.
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