Did Saruman believe he could wield the Ring?

[Lail]

A question sprung to my mind while I was participating in our group re-read and I wanted to ask here to see if anyone had further elaboration on the topic. Even better if you have any knowledge provided in HoME that might touch on this, that would be great as I have never read/borrowed/bought them.

"'No!' cried Gandalf, springing to his feet. 'With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly.' His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. 'Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good. Do not tempt me! I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too great, for my strength. I shall have such need of it. Great perils lie before me.'"

FotR - Chapter 2

This quote in particular got me thinking about Saruman and his quest for the One Ring, particularly whether it was logical for him to seek it given his deep knowledge of ring-lore.

Gandalf says of Saruman -

"He is the chief of my order and the head of the Council. His knowledge is deep, but his pride has grown with it, and he takes ill any meddling. The lore of Elven-rings, great and small, is his province. He has long studied it, seeking the lost secrets of their making; but when the Rings were debated in the Council, all that he would reveal to us of his ring-lore told against my fears. So my doubt slept - but uneasily." FotR - Chapter 2

Saruman later calls himself Ring-Maker, but in addition to trying to make his own rings, he also seeks the One. How much lore of the One Ring did he study versus lore about the other rings of power? It seems he was, at least initially, more interested in making his own rings then later decided to seek the One. Please correct me if I am wrong.

"Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others."- Galadriel to Frodo, FotR, Chapter 7

It seems that Saruman must think himself powerful and worthy to bear a Ring, therefore he (unlike Frodo) is well aware of this. Which leads to my main question...

Did he think himself powerful enough to bear and wield the One Ring should he have successfully found it? It seems he would have also had power "too great and terrible" with the Ring, but would he also have succumbed completely to its power eventually? Would he become like Sauron or a wraith-like wizard (as indicated in Gandalf's quote at the top of my post)?

It seems to me given all his knowledge of ring-lore he might have logically realised he could not truly wield and bear the One Ring with any kind long-term success and without any consequences to himself. I guess what I am saying is it seems a bit short-sighted of a plan to me, but his pride got in the way.

What do you think?

[Lirimaer]

While I have no wise comments or references for you, I would say that as he and Annatar were both Maiar of Aulë, it would likely have gone against the grain to admit he was lesser than Morgoth's greatest pupil.

Pride was undoubtedly a factor.

[Boromir88]

Interesting.

I'm not aware of other references to Saruman's plans with the Ring outside of Lord of the Rings, but there is an interesting 'what if' scenario Tolkien writes in the Foreward:

The real war does not resemble the legendary war in its process or its conclusion. If it had inspired or directed the development of the legend, then certainly the Ring would have been seized and used against Sauron; he would not have been annhilated but enslaved, and Barad-dur would not have been destroyed but occupied. Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth... Foreward to the Second Edition

Yes, this is Tolkien sort of giving a 'what if' to explain that his books were not an allegory for WW2. However, even if this what if doesn't happen I think it gives insight into Saruman's character (as Tolkien wrote Saruman's intentions to be). He was likely trying to acquire the Ring (as Gandalf reports to the Council of Elrond):

"Why not the Ruling Ring? If we could command that, then the Power would pass to us."

Having failed in acquiring it though, then he would have sought to create his own Ring of Power, he would have found the missing links in Mordor and challenged the 'self-styled Ruler of Middle-earth.'

Saruman calls himself "Ring-maker" and Gandalf spots a ring on his finger. I believe that is the only time this is mentioned. So, if Saruman did make his own ring, it was of no significance and he may have just been trying to showboat for Gandalf. It makes you wonder if perhaps Saruman having failed to create his Ring of Power, sought the One Ring in hopes it might 'unlock the missing links' into creating his own. Or, if it is the other way around, he was seeking to acquire and 'command' the Ring first, but having failed at that, would have sought to create his own.

[Lail]

Lirimaer, good point!

Thanks, @Boromir88! I appreciate your stopping by. So it seems we get kind of an answer from the Foreword, which I clearly skipped over in favor of getting into the Prologue and story. Very interesting pair of possibilities there. Do you think that means anyone seizing the Ring for use against Sauron would have enslaved him and occupied Barad-dur, including Saruman? Would Galadriel have done so too?

Saruman calls himself "Ring-maker" and Gandalf spots a ring on his finger. I believe that is the only time this is mentioned. So, if Saruman did make his own ring, it was of no significance and he may have just been trying to showboat for Gandalf. It makes you wonder if perhaps Saruman having failed to create his Ring of Power, sought the One Ring in hopes it might 'unlock the missing links' into creating his own. Or, if it is the other way around, he was seeking to acquire and 'command' the Ring first, but having failed at that, would have sought to create his own.

Oh interesting! I did not know Saruman wore a ring at all. I'm going to be on the look-out for that snippet on my re-read.

I guess overall from this we can infer that he did indeed have enough power to successfully wield the One Ring (or another Ring of his own creation (in the hypothetical version where he is successful)).

[Almaren]

@Lirimaer I'm with you all the way when you mention pride. Saruman was a learned and highly intelligent Maia, and must have understood that the Ring had only one true master. But I think greed played a part in his desire to possess it as well as pride, as he liked the idea of claiming lordship over Middle-earth. His hostility/jealousy of Gandalf may also have swayed him, as Gandalf was the keeper of Narya, and that may have rankled ...

[Androthelm]

Oh, but that raises two new questions @Almaren -- does "One true master" really just mean Sauron? Because Gandalf and Galadriel seem pretty confident that they could take down Sauron if they used the Ring--only, then THEY would fill his space.
Also, does Saruman know that Gandalf was the keeper of Narya? How public is that knowledge? There's a lot of secret-keeping, especially about the elf-rings..

[Boromir88]

Hi @Almaren , welcome! Good points and it does raise some more questions...

@Androthelm
does "One true master" really just mean Sauron? Because Gandalf and Galadriel seem pretty confident that they could take down Sauron if they used the Ring--only, then THEY would fill his space.

I think this is one of those questions no one can say for certain. Someone else possessing and using the Ring was what Sauron feared the most. Does that mean someone truly 'could' or is Sauron slightly paranoid? Was we discussed in the read along, I find the point that Sauron didn't trust the Ringwraiths interesting. Their mission wasn't to kill Frodo, take the Ring and return it to Sauron. It was to enslave Frodo to their will, bring him to Sauron and Sauron would take the Ring. Sauron didn't even trust his 'loyal' servants, which implies he fears someone able to possess it and 'fill his place.' Does that make it 'true' though?

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him - being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form. In the "Mirror of Galadriel", it appears that Galadriel conceived of herself as capable of wielding the Ring and supplanting the Dark Lord. IF so, so also were the other guardians of the Three, especially Elrond. But this is another matter. It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve. In any case Elrond or Galadriel would have proceeded in the policy now adopted by Sauron: they would have built up an empire with great and absolutely subservient generals and armies and engines of war, until they could challenge Sauron and destroy him by force. Confrontation of Sauron alone, unaided, self to self, was not contemplated - Letter 246

This is Tolkien contemplating the question, especially with the 3 Elven ring bearers, who all at some point must have contemplated using the Ring against Sauron. It's interesting Tolkien adds the line thought 'It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power'. So many questions that need answered, but no answer that's conclusive.

Also, does Saruman know that Gandalf was the keeper of Narya? How public is that knowledge? There's a lot of secret-keeping, especially about the elf-rings..

Yes the UT mentions that Saruman at some point became aware Gandalf was given one of the Elven rings and became jealous.

And the Grey Messenger took the the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest - Unfinished Tales: The Istari

[Androthelm]

Fascinating @Boromir88, and thanks for the quote from the Letters.

I wonder, though -- what about Gandalf? Could he have confronted Sauron directly, each as a Maia taken form? Certainly it would mean a deviation from his mission in Arda, but... isn't that what Sauron's doing anyway?

[Almaren]

@Boromir88 Thank you for the warm welcome, for the helpful UT reference and for your further thoughts. And @Androthelm I must confess that I hadn't given thought as to whether Saruman knew that Gandalf was the keeper of Narya. I think Gandalf would have had no reason to keep this a secret from Saruman as he trusted him before he turned traitor.

I've often wondered what would have happened if, for example, Gandalf or Galadriel had acquired the ruling Ring. And as @Boromir88 has pointed out, Sauron's fear of it falling into the hands of someone powerful suggests that he has severe concerns about it. Or this certainly could be a manifestation of his paranoid personality. People who are untrustworthy generally assume that everyone else is untrustworthy too.

I've always interpreted Gandalf's refusal to take the Ring as an indication that it would eventually corrupt anyone who possessed it, and the more powerful the person the greater capacity to do damage.

This is an endlessly fascinating subject and one which I'm sure will fuel further discussion. My mind is still ticking over ...

[Boromir88]

@Almaren

I've always interpreted Gandalf's refusal to take the Ring as an indication that it would eventually corrupt anyone who possessed it, and the more powerful the person the greater capacity to do damage.

Good point. When Frodo offers the Ring to Gandalf and he rejects it, he says that the 'temptation' to use it would be too great because he would have a 'great need' for it. I think the Ring does two things.

1. Gives power according to the possessor's stature. So a hobbit in possession of the Ring isn't any major threat to Sauron. Gollum uses it in truly awful, but relatively minor mischief...to hide from captors and assist in killing/murdering goblins. Bilbo uses it to avoid the Sackville-Bagginses and play a party prank. Someone like Gandalf/Saruman/Galadriel/Elrond in possession of the Ring would be far more powerful and more of the threat to Sauron.

2. It's part of the Ring's deceit though to 'fill minds with imaginations of supreme power.' So, I think we can best see this with Sam's imagination when he becomes a Ring bearer:

He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forebear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. Wild fantasies arose in his mind; and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flower and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put the Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be. - Return of the King: The Tower of Cirith Ungol

-Power according to stature: at Sam's command the Gorgoroth would be turned into a beautiful 'garden of flower and trees and brought forth fruit'
-Imaginations of supreme power: Sam imagines a flaming sword and armies flocking to his call to overthrow Sauron.

[Androthelm]

@Boromir88 thank you for noting the Sam quote. I'd sort of presumed that Gandalf might see more "individual" success with the ring because he's closer in nature to Sauron, whereas as the letter mentions an Elf-lord using it would need to build up an army and use it in more indirect ways, but then again... even Sam believes he could challenge Sauron directly, if he used the ring, and it is only his own self-defacement and humility which breaks the spell.

[Almaren]

@Boromir88 Your points are spot on.

The possession of the Ring by Gollum, Frodo or Bilbo indeed posed more of an irritation than a threat to Sauron. The purer the possessor, the longer it will take for them to fall under the Ring's spell, and Bilbo and Frodo serve as good illustrations.

As far as Sam is concerned, I like the way he pictures himself leading an army that overthrows Sauron. The Ring seems to draw latent fantasies/desires/wishes into the conscious mind of its bearer. Humble Sam may have subconsciously longed to throw on the mantle of a hero (which he did, of course, albeit in a different way to that which he imagined) although this is at odds with his contented nature and enjoyment of his life as a gardener in the Shire. His fantasy of turning the hideous vale of Gorgoroth into a beautiful garden is certainly a projection of his love of things that grow, and turning this part of Mordor into a garden must be the supreme fantasy.

I am really enjoying reading your posts - thanks for starting this fascinating topic. I'm almost tempted to write a piece of fan-fiction about what could have happened if one of the more powerful beings had come into possession of the Ring ...

[Androthelm]

I do think, @Almaren, that you're right, although I'd quibble with the notion that Sam wanted to wear the mantle of a hero. He undercuts himself almost constantly throughout the text, and -- though that might be nothing more than him having internalized some class-stuff -- I think even the dream he has of his own power with the ring demonstrates his real desire: to put things right by simple strength. That might require being a hero, but at his core I think Sam is mostly interested in honesty and hobbit-sense.

EDIT: Oh my @Almaren! I somehow began this post "I do think that you're wrong" which is a bit different than what I meant -- "I do think that you're right."

[Boromir88]

@Almaren thank you for the kind words. Although, credit for the topic goes to @Lailorn and there's some questions which haven't been answered (if there is an answer to them :) )

Very interesting pair of possibilities there. Do you think that means anyone seizing the Ring for use against Sauron would have enslaved him and occupied Barad-dur, including Saruman? Would Galadriel have done so too?

Gandalf guesses that Sauron would have enslaved the hobbits purely out of spite. So, it does make you wonder if someone else used the Ring would they have wanted to kill Sauron or would they have sought to enslave him out of spite, as part of the Ring's corrupting influence?

I think these questions are always fascinating because there is no conclusive answer, it's up to the individual reader. To me, Tolkien was constantly portraying a duality of evil "within" (Boethian) and evil "without" (Manichean). There is an external force of evil (The Ring/Sauron) that exerts power over others (Frodo as an example). But that external evil can only corrupt by what's already within the person.

So, I'm wondering is it the Ring or the Ring-bearer? When Frodo has in his mind to throw the ring into his little fire in Bag End, but puts the Ring into his pocket...is it because the Ring's an external force that overwhelms Frodo's will, or is there already an evil (even a very minute feeling) "within" Frodo that the Ring exaggerates and brings front and center?

[Lail]

Did not expect this to branch into such an interesting discussion. Thanks all for making some very interesting comments. Sorry I've been inattentive, I need to have the right hat on for Lore.

I also do agree it seems logical to think both Gandalf and Saruman (as Maiar) would be the best candidates to wield the Ring against Sauron. However Galadriel is a pretty powerful elf! She does expel The Witch-king from Dol Guldur so maybe I can be convinced she could do it, too. Elrond I am less sure of - I see him as the kind of guy who would organize a bunch of other people to do it for him like gathering armies to storm Mordor. Maybe none of them are capable of taking Sauron on one-on-one though. Remember that it took both Gil-galad and Elendil to “defeat” Sauron in the Second Age.

Which springs another new question ( ) - Did Gil-galad have Narya at that time or had he already passed it on to Cirdan?

Seeing as he dies fighting Sauron, do I assume he’d passed it on already - would it have made a difference if he’d had it at the time?

---

On a completely separate note and possibly a tangent (I apologize for the length) -- mostly regarding @Boromir88’s points about evil, corruption and The Ring.

That Sam quote is really interesting - I forgot he reacts that way. So, when Sam wears the Ring, he imagines himself a great warrior-hero and all the wonderful things he could do. It seems kind of harmless, really.

In contrast, Frodo does not seem to have these images of power and greatness when he puts on the Ring (at least in FotR). Perhaps it is the circumstances in which it is worn that determines part of the experience or that person’s individual desire for power that impacts what they see? Or is Sam more pure/less corruptible than Frodo?

For example Frodo wears the Ring for the first time at Tom B’s house after resisting its lure in the barrow. It seems like he’s playing a trick and tries to sneak away not unlike Bilbo:

Frodo looked at it closely and rather suspiciously (like one who has lent a trinket to a juggler). It was the same Ring, or looked the same and weighed the same: for that Ring had always seemed to Frodo to weigh strangely heavy in the hand. But something prompted him to make sure. He was perhaps a trifle annoyed with Tom for seeming to make so light of which even Gandalf thought so perilously important. He waited for an opportunity, when the talk was going again, and Tom was telling an absurd story about badgers and their queer ways - then he slipped the Ring on.

Merry turned towards him to say something and gave a start, and checked an exclamation. Frodo was delighted (in a way): it was his own ring all right, for Merry was staring blankly at his chair, and obviously could not see him. He got up and crept quietly away from the fireside towards the outer door.

'Hey there!' cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. 'Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil’s not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand’s more fair without it.

Frodo feels a bit annoyed and puts the Ring to make sure it is still the One.

He was also tempted to put it on in his moment of weakness/fear at the barrow when he considered abandoning his friends.

Shortly before he put the Ring on at the Prancing Pony, he “suddenly felt very foolish, and found himself (as was his habit when making a speech) fingering the things in his pocket. He felt the Ring on its chain, and quite unaccountably the desire came over him to slip it on and vanish out of the silly situation. It seemed to him, somehow, as if the suggestion came to him from outside, from someone or something in the room. He resisted the temptation firmly, and clasped the Ring in his hand, as if to keep a hold on it and prevent it from escaping or doing any mischief.” Not long after this, he “accidentally” puts it on when he leaps off the table.


Boromir88 asked “is it the Ring or the Ring-bearer?”

I think it is both combined. Aside from Sam’s epic visions wearing the Ring, I think the Ring draws and feeds on weaknesses and fears (even the darkness, but maybe not evil within?). Frodo seems to often wear it (at least early on) when feeling negative emotions: annoyed/embarrassed/fearful.

On the whole, I agree the Ring would corrupt anyone who bore it too long except perhaps Tom B who seems impervious and generally outside all the rules.

We could probably delve into this topic a lot deeper and examine many individual Ring-bearing characters/experiences more but since I don’t want to totally derail this thread, I am going to stop there because this is quite enough for me right now (though I don’t really mind going off-topic a bit that’s how interesting discussions happen - if someone wants to start a separate thread on this, go for it). But I do wonder what “the powerful” (Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond, Cirdan(??)) would experience wearing the Ring especially given Galadriel’s reaction at being offered it.

As far as whether Galadriel would have enslaved Sauron and occupied Barad-dur, there probably is no concrete answer which is totally fine, but I kind of think...she would? She strikes me as the type to seek out power and control though she does resist temptation when its offered!

Tribute Fairy

[Androthelm]

@Lail you've raised some really interesting points here. I hadn't considered Frodo's lack of desire to dominate when he wears the ring before. Of course, Galadriel also raises it -- and points out that he hasn't even tried. I do think there is something in his character, perhaps, which pushes against that. Even once he returns to the Shire and serves as Deputy Mayor, he does very little and seems generally to want to keep out of the limelight.

To answer the one small question I can, though, I do believe that Gil-galad passed his Ring on earlier, if only because I know I read something about that in the Appendices recently and the line was that he'd given it "before his death." It is interesting -- maybe he feared Sauron taking it, should the Last Alliance be unsuccessful?

[Lail]

That's a great point about what Galadriel tells him, @Androthelm. I do agree Frodo does not seem like one to seek power at all.

Thank you for the Gil-galad info - I could have looked it up but to be honest my brain was kind of tired after that post! But I did realise two things in hindsight:
1, I forgot Isildur also played a part in defeating Sauron in addition to Elendil and Gil-galad
2. Because Sauron had the One, it makes sense that Gil-galad would not have wanted to bear his Ring because that would have left him susceptible to Sauron's influence. is that right?

In other words, I think you're right - I'm sure Gil-galad feared Sauron taking Narya. It was a good call to pass it on to Cirdan when he did.

[Androthelm]

Oh, the susceptibility point is clever @Lail. Especially since, in the time of the War of the Rings, so much was done to hide the specifics of who bore the three rings from Sauron -- perhaps to make it harder for him to work his will on them?

[Boromir88]

Welcome back @Lail. All I can say is wow and excellent observation about Frodo putting on the ring when he's feeling negative emotions. Frodo is quite a different Ring-bearer and I didn't know how different until now. You're right he doesn't appear to be tempted with power or dominating others, which was the purpose of Sauron making it.

On a separate note...Yes, while Sauron had the Ring the Elven ring bearers did not wear theirs:

But the Elves were not so lightly to be caught. As soon as Sauron set the One Ring upon his finger they were aware of him; and they knew him, and perceived that he would be master of them, and of all that they wrought. Then in anger and fear they took off their rings. - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Then after the defeat of Sauron and losing the One Ring, the Three were "ever at work" (ibid)

[Androthelm]

@Boromir88 that is a very interesting quote. "in anger and fear" -- the fear, I suppose, is obvious. The "anger" though, confuses me -- anger at their betrayal, perhaps? But wouldn't that motivate them to more quickly confront Sauron, not to hide from him?