LOTR Read-Along Book I

[Karis Ziranphel]

Having just read the Prologue out loud on discord tonight I am game for discussing the pipeweed comment. Merry's comment is that the Gondorians only prized pipeweed for its wonderful flowers and called it Sweet Galenas. I think it entirely likely that someone would bring their favorite flower with them to the new world as it were. People often want to take a bit of "home" with them when they move to a new land.

[KingODuckingham]

I also found it interesting that the Gaffer didn't like the miller. Partially it was, I think, that the miller was questioning and pushing him. But somehow I'm wondering if the Gaffer was quoting Tolkien's love of trees over machines. Mills were probably as advanced as the Hobbits got in terms of technology--so making the technology-maker unlikeable? Sounds like pure Tolkien.

I definitely got this impression. I think it is no accident that Sandyman ends up on Sharky's side at the other end of the trilogy. A love of machines (even as simple as a water wheel?) no doubt put Ted on the side of the mechanically-minded Saruman. The Gaffer may not be Wise in the heroic sense, but I think he has the wisdom of age that lets him read people in those sorts of intuitive ways.

[Menolly]

Oh, this first chapter is like coming home! It feels so safe and warm and lived-in. That said, I feel like I have the opposite reaction to folks who said they appreciate hobbits more as they get older. I immediately identified with hobbits when I read this as a teenager, I think because they felt safe, and I felt rather unsafe at that time in my life. Now when I reread it, I laugh at all the gossip and sniping and rumor-mongering that goes on, but I think I wouldn't like to live in the middle of it! Tolkien really captures both the good and the bad of life in a small town, where everyone knows everyone and there are no true secrets. I had forgotten how great Bilbo's gifts are (I particularly laughed at Hugo's bookshelf and Angelica's mirror), and how gossipy the Gaffer and his friends are about Bilbo and Frodo. Tolkien's sense of humor is fantastic. I only got through the first chapter and a bit, so I will try to catch up more for next week!

[Androthelm]

@Flame Fried Ent as Karis mentioned above, it does seem like the Gondorians brought along "sweet galenas" as an ornamental flower in their arrival to Middle-Earth. More interesting to me, though, is how on earth it made the jump from Gondor to the Shire! Perhaps via Arnor, in days when the Dúnedain were not yet so scattered? Or -- since we know it stopped in Bree -- maybe Middle-Earth just has a lot of traveling vendors moving up and down the North-South road that once ran through the gap. I don't know! It's baffling, but also speaks -- in a very Tolkien-y way -- to the breadth of this world that we don't see.

[Burnt Toast]

Belatedly leaping in! Some of my early thoughts are represented in lore threads I opened -- particularly the one on the destruction of the Ring-- and then I stopped reading for a while, waiting for the group read to start, and promptly forgot. Silly me.

But I'm back at it-- and I seem to follow the general sentiment of the group; when I first read, I was impatient to get past concerning hobbits (I didn't hate it by any means, I really loved the hobbit characters most when I first read, but I wanted to get to the swords and stuff. Now, however, either with age, (or just with the fact that I've gotten to read the sword-y parts a whole bunch, I'm really liking reading about the hobbits. Also the squabbles betwixt the Sackville-Bagginses and Bilbo are just horribly delightful.

[Menolly]

I'm jumping the gun just a little, but I finished next week's chapters, and what is up with Frodo's dream at the end of A Conspiracy Unmasked? It feels very metaphorical, and the metaphor is going right over my head.

"Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in his waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the Sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder."

Is it an allusion to his future journey from the Grey Havens? That's all I can think of.

[Lirimaer]

Ch 2 contd.

And my search would have been in vain, but for the help that I had from a friend: Aragorn, the greatest traveller and huntsman of this age of the world.

I had quite forgotten that we hear of Aragorn before we hear of Strider, and it is a surprise to hear him so named, to be honest. I think the film's done a number on me.

‘But this is terrible!’ cried Frodo. ‘Far worse than the worst that I imagined from your hints and warnings. O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do?

I enjoy the juxtaposition of this condemnation and approbation - this is terrible news that YOU DID NOT PREPARE ME ADEQUATELY FOR IN ANY WAY; what now, BFF BUDDY?

But Sam, oh Sam - fearful of Gandalf and overwhelmed by what he's overheard - excited to go, like a dog delighted to go for a walk, and promptly bursting into tears. It is so evident that he is unprepared mentally for the darker elements of this adventure. I'll be quite interested to see how he develops fortitude over the coming chapters.

[Gwai]

It's been a while since I've read the books, so can't remember...how did Gandalf find out Smeagol killed Deagol?

[Lirimaer]

From Gollum himself, with some educated guesses, according to this conversation:

Gandalf paused. ‘And there in the dark pools amid the Gladden Fields,’ he said, ‘the Ring passed out of knowledge and legend; and even so much of its history is known now only to a few, and the Council of the Wise could discover no more. But at last I can carry on the story, I think.'
[...]
'But how have you learned all this about the Ring, and about Gollum? Do you really know it all, or are you just guessing still?’
Gandalf looked at Frodo, and his eyes glinted. ‘I knew much and I have learned much,’ he answered. ‘But I am not going to give an account of all my doings to you. The history of Elendil and Isildur and the One Ring is known to all the Wise.
Your ring is shown to be that One Ring by the fire-writing alone, apart from any other evidence.’
‘And when did you discover that?’ asked Frodo, interrupting.
‘Just now in this room, of course,’ answered the wizard sharply. ‘But I expected to find it. I have come back from dark journeys and long search to make that final test. It is the last proof, and all is now only too clear. Making out Gollum’s part, and fitting it into the gap in the history, required some thought. I may have started with guesses about Gollum, but I am not guessing now. I know. I have seen him.’
‘You have seen Gollum?’ exclaimed Frodo in amazement.
‘Yes. The obvious thing to do, of course, if one could. I tried long ago; but I have managed it at last.’
‘Then what happened after Bilbo escaped from him? Do you know that?’
‘Not so clearly. What I have told you is what Gollum was willing to tell – though not, of course, in the way I have reported it. Gollum is a liar, and you have to sift his words.'

[Gwai]

Yes you’re completely right, and I missed that! I was surprised that he had admitted it, with the “birthday present”, but you’re right it’s not a stretch for Gandalf to connect the dots.

[Boromir88]

@Lirimaer I enjoy the juxtaposition of this condemnation and approbation - this is terrible news that YOU DID NOT PREPARE ME ADEQUATELY FOR IN ANY WAY; what now, BFF BUDDY?

Neat observation. It seems like a common trait of Frodo's. I finished the chapters for the next discussion and Frodo kind of exhibits some parts of Gandalf's character. Keeps things close to the vest, so to say, because he doesn't want to drag his friends into the peril that Gandalf has dragged him into. Could be why Gandalf didn't tell Frodo his guesses about Bilbo's ring until he was like 99% certain his guesses were correct? In the same way, Frodo spends these next 3 chapters wondering how the heck is he just going to abandon his friends, he's convinced that they don't suspect anything. Turned out they didn't know everything, but they knew quite a lot and Frodo wants to both strangle them and love them. Which is I guess the strongest kind of friendship?

And finally, I can share some fungal lore from a fun author:

[Boromir88]

Three is Company

Two main things that stood out about this chapter is...

1. Gandalf is missing. Did everyone hear? By the way, Gandalf is missing. In The Hobbit we're kind of used to Gandalf popping in and out of the story, but he usually gave advanced warning (like when he departs before the company enters Mirkwood). Or it was to "look ahead", avoid capture from the Goblins, but always "looking behind"/rejoining.

I think Tolkien wanted to make a point that Gandalf missing this time is much more worrisome. Afterall Gandalf had been popping in and out on Frodo after Bilbo's party (as he said he would) and made it a point that he wanted to be there when Frodo did decide to leave the Shire. This time he's not though, and even Gildor shows concern that Gandalf isn't where he said he was going to be.

2. Trees and woods offering protection from the Black Riders several times throughout the chapter. Trees being a natural force of protection and safety for the hobbits, gets really interesting after they enter the Old Forest.

A couple other things, I wanted to go back to a previous poster's comments (sorry I forget who ) about Sam at the end of The Shadow of the Past
...springing up like a dog invited for a walk 'Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!' he shouted, and then burst into tears.


The dog going for a walk comparison is interesting, because perhaps their most recognizable and positive trait is their loyalty. However, there is some negative connotations to the comparison. His outburst "yay Elves" feels like "ooh squirrels!" to me. At this point, "invited for a walk" implies that Sam doesn't fully grasp (yet) what he's signing up for. Perhaps the thought does hit him that this isn't going to be a simple walk, and that's why he bursts into tears, after the initial jubilation? In Three is Company it's noted that his geography knowledge is strong, but limited to within 20 miles of Hobbiton. Again, similar to a dog, they love walks, but usually aren't going to stray too far from home or their own self-imposed comfortable borders.

At the beginning of Three is Company, Pippin and Frodo give the orders to Sam and he is very quick to obey. But we do start seeing a change over Sam in these next 3 chapters (and it will be interesting to keep this in mind going forward). But after meeting the Elves, Frodo was surprised Sam had a private conversation with them, and noticed almost an immediate difference:

'Yes, sir. I don't know how to say it, but after last night I feel different. I seem to see ahead, in a kind of way. I know we are going to take a very long road, into darkness; but I know I can't turn back. It isn't to see Elves now, nor dragons, nor mountains, that I want - I don't rightly know what I want: but I have something to do before the end, and it lies ahead, not in the Shire. I must see it through, sir, if you understand me.' A Shortcut to Mushrooms

Already, quite a different Sam from a few chapters ago.

[Mojo]

We are on to Week 2, which covers Three Is Company, A Short Cut to Mushrooms, and A Conspiracy Unmasked. If you haven't started yet or are a little behind, no worries, we welcome all late-comers so feel free to jump in at any time!

Some initial thoughts from me on Chapter 3:

After the "slow burn" which many have discussed in this thread of The Shadow of the Past, we see how narrowly that lackadaisical Hobbit-ness nearly ends the Quest before it starts. Frodo got the Ring from Bilbo when he turned 33. He found out about the true nature from Gandalf 16 1/2 years later (in the spring of 3018). In the Appendix we are told it was April 12 when Gandalf returned to the Shire, and he departed at the end of June, but still Frodo remained in Bag End. It wasn't until September, a good 6 months later and 17 full years after Frodo had come into possession of the Ring, that he actually set out from Bag End.

A few lovely notes about Sam in this chapter. First with his "Saying goodbye to the beer barrel" then this absolute gem:

Presently Sam appeared, trotting quickly and breathing hard; his heavy pack was hoisted high on his shoulders, and he had put on his head a tall shapeless felt bag, which he called a hat.

This is a masterful sentence from Tolkien. "A tall shapeless felt bag, which he called a hat" tells you everything you need to know about the...thing...as well as some editorializing from the author.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

I'm a bit behind (almost done with Chapter 4), but I honestly forgot about the meeting with the elves while still in the Shire. Goodness, Frodo's adventure in getting to Crickhollow is exciting. Black Riders, elves, and Farmer Maggot. Not quite the quiet walk across the Shire he was expecting.

And yes, I love how much character development Sam gets even in just the first few chapters. I think it's safe to say Sam is the definition of a true friend.

Will say more on my thoughts after I have finished Chapter 5.

[Flame Fried Ent]

Don't have a lot to say right now, but this is where one of my little favourite parts is. Everybody's favourite sapient fox shows up here! He wonders about hobbits and the strange habits of these 3 hobbits, with their sleeping outside and under trees and all. When I first read this part, I thought that the fox would notice them coming back or something. Bit of a Chekhov's Gun that never ends up being fired!

I've also never really seen the fascination with mushrooms. If the Riders had been smart, they'd have left some mushrooms out to capture the Hobbits easily.

[Lail]

"Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew that it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in his waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the Sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder."

Is it an allusion to his future journey from the Grey Havens? That's all I can think of.

In my previous readings I have always thought this, too. I still interpret it this way, especially considering the "tall white tower" being the White Towers of the Tower Hills.

When I just finished reading it this time, I wondered about the beginning portion of the dream where he finds himself looking down at a sea of tangled trees. This one is less clear to me what it might mean (if anything) but I suppose the crawling and snuffling creatures would be the fear of the Black Riders entering his dreams as they were depicted to "sniff" and "crawl" when Frodo encountered them previously.

Eventually he fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.

[Mojo]

In response to @Boromir88's comments, the only fungal lore you need to know is: All mushrooms are edible, some are only edible once.

Also, great points about Gandalf missing vs how he jumped in and out of Bilbo's journey. As we discussed about A Long-Expected Party some of the "tone" from the Hobbit carries over into the first chapter in its happy-go-lucky adventure type narrative. We begin to see the dark undertones in Shadow of the Past but the danger really comes home in Three is Company when the Hobbits actually encounter a Black Rider in the Shire. Even Frodo is surprised that a servant of the Enemy can be found in the Shire, as if he didn't quite believe Gandalf's foreboding warnings. That said, their first few encounters with the Black Riders certainly make them seem a bit less fearsome than they appear in later chapters in the book. Though we are also told later that they are more powerful when together in a group and (even in Bree) they often get others to do their work, influencing through fear, rather than taking outright action themselves. I think this continues our slow transition away from Bilbo's happy-go-lucky adventure story to Frodo's flight "from danger into danger."

Following up on some of the earlier conversation, I was thinking more about the timeline. I know Gandalf didn't want to raise an alarm about Frodo disappearing which is why he advised Frodo make a plan and sneak out if possible. That said, even with the delays Frodo encountered, it took him less than a month to go from Bag End to Rivendell (approximately September 23 to October 20 when he crossed the Ford of Bruinen). It's a little surprising that Gandalf spent 6 months in Bag End and then suddenly went off to check on news where he could've spent one of those 6 months walking with Frodo to Rivendell, departing sooner and arriving in Rivendell well before the servants of the Enemy would have known the Ring had left the Shire.

[Mojo]

Oh, as a follow-up thought to Frodo's dream - I think the sound of the sea and dreams of the water help establish his status as an "Elf-friend" since we are often told of how the Sea calls to the Elves. I also agree with the points above that it is a bit of foreshadowing of his journey to the Grey Havens.

[Lirimaer]

Chapter 3

Again the unhurried slow pace of people who haven't taken the last chapter's THE DARK LORD KNOWS YOUR NAME seriously at all because hey, we're comfy at home and hmmm, I think travelling in autumn will be much better, and hmmm I'll go on my birthday. It's still incredible to me. I think this dawdling would have been especially hard to film, because after hearing about BAGGINS and SHIRE urgency is in all our minds ... Tolkien though calms us all down again, chill out, nothing very bad is happening, in your own time Frodo ...

I don't remember him selling to the Sackville-Bagginses at all!! But leaving her the washing up is mean-spirited, Frodo.

‘No you don’t, Sam!’ said Pippin. ‘It is good for him. He’s got nothing except what he ordered us to pack. He’s been slack lately, and he’ll feel the weight less when he’s walked off some of his own.’

BURN

And so it begins, the slow realisation that he is in danger ... I do love the way Tolkien flirts with the idea of danger - a Black Rider talking to the Gaffer, overheard and avoided - a Black Rider passing them on the road, but they hid = a Black Rider sniffing and crawling toward them but, oh look Elves! ... it begins to build fear for a time when no one will come to their aid. I know I've read all this before, but this time almost feels like the first, because it's been so long. Instead of this feeling familiar, I am feeling the trepidation and relief with our fugitives, so it's really rather nice.

Feeling a lot of love for Gildor Inglorion right now.

[Mojo]

Glad someone brought up Gildor because he and his band of Elves absolutely saved the Quest, which could have been completely derailed in the midst of the Shire. The Ringwraiths were scary enough as a "strange customer" asking about Frodo and his whereabouts, but at night in the woods of the Shire, I have a hard time seeing three Hobbits being able to continually evade one of the Nazgul. Instead, Gildor and company show up and not only does the Ringwraith scamper off, but he provides Frodo, Sam and Pippin safe passage over many miles along with a safe place to sleep for the night.

This is also a nice transition into the discussion of Farmer Maggot. The other lore forum thread on him aside, Farmer Maggot proves to not only be a stout-hearted friend, but also provides timely food and transportation to Frodo, Sam and Pippin. As has been mentioned before, the movies did not do Farmer Maggot justice and this is a lovely little chapter where we see not only some more of Hobbit culture but also some of the value that Pippin brings to the group, helping to negotiate their way into the Maggot family dinner table.

[KingODuckingham]

I don't know about any of you but I very much relate to Frodo in Farmer Maggot tale. How many of us have been mortally afraid of someone or something based on a single childhood event and missed out on a good friend or experience because of it? I sure have.

I also relate in a second way to Frodo there, because I have been in a situation that teenagers put me into that was uncomfortable and somewhat against the rules, and I was in a position of some responsibility for the whole thing. *sweats*

Anyway, I think one of the roles Farmer Maggot serves narratively is to foreshadow what Frodo will say later, that Enemies will look fair but be foul, and many friends the opposite. Farmer Maggot therefore, in a small way, prefigures Aragorn, and even to an extent Gollum.

[Boromir88]

A Short Cut to Mushrooms

This chapter contains one of the iconic humorous sayings that Tolkien put his twist on. Like The Hobbit's "out of the frying pan and into the fire":

'Shortcuts make long delays' argued Pippin...
'That settles it!' said Frodo. 'Short cuts make delays, but inns make longer ones.'

Pippin seems to be obsessed with the Black rider's sniffing, much to the annoyance of Frodo:

'Did you ask about the sniffing?'
'We didn't discuss it,' said Frodo with his mouth full.
'You should have. I am sure it is very important.'
'In that case I am sure Gildor would have refused to explain it,' said Frodo sharply. 'And now leave me in peace for a bit! I don't want to answer a string of questions while I am eating. I want to think.'

So begin's the fool of a Took asking foolish questions. :P I like how these early chapters Tolkien is mixing up which hobbit to develop the chapter around. Reading it this time it feels like each chapter develops a different hobbit.

Ch. 1: Very much Bilbo's chapter, but it does transition to Frodo cleaning up the aftermath of Bilbo's surprise departure.
Ch. 2: Definitely Frodo's chapter and story now. Bilbo's out of the picture and we did not follow him out Bag End this time.
Ch. 3: Sam's noticeably a different hobbit after meeting Gildor, and seeing "Elves!"
Ch. 4: I'd say is Pippin's chapter. It opens with him asking annoying questions to Frodo and talking about wanting to go to the Golden Perch. But as @Mojo mentions, towards the end of the chapter, is valuable in the negotiating with Maggot.
Ch. 5: Felt like Merry's chapter, and as I've started reading The Old Forest today, it's feeling like Merry's chapter again. His knowledge of geography and making sensible plans is really missing in the films. It's nice to remember his leadership role in the early going.

I like all the hobbits' insights into Maggot as well. Pippin assures there is nothing to fear with Maggot. Frodo tells how Maggot caught him stealing mushrooms, gave him a beating and threatened to release his dogs on him. But I particularly love this bit about Sam:

Sam sipped his beer suspiciously. He had a natural mistrust of the inhabitants of other parts of the Shire; and also he was not disposed to be quick friends with anyone who had beaten his master; however long ago.

Now that we're further away from Hobbiton and getting closer to Buckland, it's suddenly the Hobbiton families that are queer folk, and at least according to Maggot, Frodo is doing the right thing by coming back.

Perhaps my favorite part of this chapter, because it's something I must have completely forgot...it's actually not the insight into Maggot's character, it's the insight into Mrs. Maggot!

'You be careful with yourself, Maggot!' she called. 'Don't go arguing with any foreigners, and come straight back!'

...I'd best be turning home. Mrs. Maggot will be worriting with the night getting thick.'

'I was nearly forgetting,' he said. 'Mrs. Maggot put this up for Mr. Baggins, with her compliments.'...Suddenly Frodo laughed: from the covered basket he held, the scent of mushrooms was rising.


It was light and funny insight into the family dynamics of the Maggot house, and such a humorous way to end the chapter. It was, a Short cut to Mushrooms!

[Boromir88]

A Conspiracy Unmasked

Some comments when reading this chapter, this time:

1. It's funny how in The Hobbit, Bilbo seems to first be offended at being referred to as a 'burglar.' It's a term that carries baggage and usually not a term any good and decent person wants to be called. Here it's "conspiracy" and the "conspirators" (Merry, Sam, Pippin, Fredegar). I normally would think of 'conspirators' in a negative light. Indeed, Frodo expects the chief 'spy':

'Where is he?' said Frodo, looking around, as if he expected a masked and sinister figure to come out of a cupboard.

Turned out to be Sam, who was a very successful spy for the other conspirators, Merry said "until he was caught." I assume that meant, until he was caught by Gandalf? So, Frodo's friends knew something was wrong with Frodo even before Gandalf told Frodo about Sauron and the Ring.

2. Merry stands out so much in this chapter and I love it. After The Shadow of the Past, where Frodo makes that courageous and dangerous decision it seems as if he has no plan or idea. Maybe it's because he's keeping his thoughts close to the vest and trying to figure out how exactly is he going to leave, including leaving his friends without them noticing. Yet, there doesn't seem to be any conclusive planning or decision making beyond "I have to leave Bag End and the Shire."

However, to be kinder to Frodo, he was expecting Gandalf of showing up. With Gandalf being missing, he's struggling on deciding any clear plan. He gets some needed help from Gildor. But I love that it's Merry who is the driving force, beginning in Chapter 5. There's a comment in The Hobbit that Gandalf can't do everything but he can do a lot, and usually thinks of everything, in a tight spot. Merry's really standing out as the substitute for Gandalf. He's the one who came up with the plan when and where to leave from Crickhollow, supplying the confidence to take a path through the Old Forest, and even thinking of getting the packing prepared and the ponies ready. Heck, Frodo overslept and it's Merry who gets him up and moving! Major admiration for Merry in this chapter.

[Lail]

Funny, in my reading I had an opposite response to Pippin's questions and fixations on the sniffing, @Boromir88. I thought he was rather perceptive (though persistent with his questions) with fixating on the sniffing like he already realizes on some level that the Nazgul don't have good vision but are sniffing them out.

I really enjoy the early chapters of FotR - the adventures of the hobbits from the Shire to Rivendell are some of my favorites.

When Gandalf goes away, when Frodo asks if something has happened, he responds:

"Well no; but I have heard something that has made me anxious and needs looking into."

What is it that has Gandalf anxious aside from finding out about the One Ring? Do we ever find out? I thought this was when he goes off to see Saruman and gets in trouble, but I legitimately can't remember if we ever ind out what it was that initiated Gandalf's departure from the Shire.

I think we get some interesting insight into Frodo's character. He seems sort of romantic attitude in a way when he decides to leave on Bilbo's birthday. There is a kind of romanticism to this plan, that he thinks the date auspicious and that somehow the connection to Bilbo gives him great comfort (see quote below). While it seems altogether quite impractical to settle on such a date, this is something I totally relate to. I very much get this wistful feeling from Frodo about his remaining days in the Shire. He knows he's going into danger and everything is going to change and somehow that makes the humdrum of every day life that much more beautiful.

To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now it had come to the point: Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of his last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season. He had indeed privately made up his mind to leave on his fiftieth birthday: Bilbo's one hundred and twenty-eighth. It seemed somehow the proper day on which to set out and follow him. Following Bilbo was uppermost in his mind, and the one thing that made the thought of leaving bearable.

We get more of his sad wistfulness as he worries the night of his intimate farewell party how he will say goodbye to his friends and again when he wonders if he will ever "look down into that valley again."

Its also interesting that Frodo is having to face his fears - Farmer Maggott and his dogs, the Black Riders of course, next the Old Forest. Its like prep conditioning for the many fearful things he is going to have to face in the future.

Frodo's friends really shine in Chapters 4 and 5 in their own individual way - Pippin agrees to follow Frodo through "every bog and ditch" despite missing out on the beer at the Golden Perch.

Sam continually sticks by Frodo's side and is a provider, cooking breakfast as they camp, and his loyalty is affirmed in his conversation with the Elves:
'

If you don't come back, sir, then I shan't, that's certain,' said Sam. 'Don't you leave him! they said to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon, and if any of those Black Riders try to stop him, they'll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said. They laughed.'

Merry, as mentioned previously, is also much of the brains of this operation as well as a provider for the group (providing shelter and preparing their food and baths). He comes off as very intelligent to me (shame they glossed over it in the movies), even already being aware of the Ring after seeing Bilbo with it and keeping it quiet to himself as well as his practical knowledge of the geography of the area. His devotion to Frodo is also shown through his actions keeping an eye on Frodo all this time, helps organize his move to Crickhollow and becomes something of a leader on their escape from the Shire.

[Mojo]

I always forget about how good the Conspiracy Unmasked chapter is, but I highly enjoy it every time I read it. In fact, it might be one of my favorite chapters in the whole saga. It shows the nature of the friendship and communal fellowship of the Hobbits and how it wasn't just four random Hobbits thrown together to go on a quest, but four friends knowingly going from danger into danger.

I think it is very telling that Merry and Pippin, apparently, had long before decided they were going to go with Frodo wherever he went and their chief fear was not where they were going (even if it meant to Mordor) but that Frodo would slip off without them. That speaks to the depth of love (in a friendship sense, not in a romantic sense) that bonded them together - and quite possibly made them willing to take on whatever risks were necessary during their quest.

[Boromir88]

@Lailorn What is it that has Gandalf anxious aside from finding out about the One Ring? Do we ever find out? I thought this was when he goes off to see Saruman and gets in trouble, but I legitimately can't remember if we ever ind out what it was that initiated Gandalf's departure from the Shire.

Interesting, something to keep an eye out for. I gave Jackson and the movies a lot of credit for Fellowship of the Ring, but I'm really seeing how different they are and remembering all the changes to the details.

Like here, Gandalf never tells Frodo he's going to seek out Saruman's council, so what is the 'anxious' news that pulls Gandalf away? I got into a habit of accepting the movie version of assuming Gandalf was going to Isengard. However, now I remember that is not where Gandalf was heading. He was met by Radagast and told that Saruman wanted to see him. Now you have me wondering where was Gandalf originally going and what news was he anxious about?

[Lail]

I just found myself wondering "what could possibly make Gandalf more anxious than finding out Frodo has the One Ring and that the Enemy knows about it?" Seems like that's very high anxiety-inducing to me!

So I cheated and looked it up on the internet because it was bugging me so much. According to Tolkien Gateway it was news of Sauron's attack on Osgiliath that spurred him to leave (after which he did talk to Radagast and was waylaid by Saruman). The source of this information appears to be from The Council of Elrond, so it seems that we will find out eventually in our re-reading of FotR which is why I whited it out in case anyone doesn't want to re-spoil it for themselves if they find their memory lacking as much as mine.

Now I just want to pause for a moment to let it sink in just how much Gandalf contributed to general events in Middle-earth and how little credit and appreciation he received for it!

[Lirimaer]

Ch 4:

Wow, I'd forgotten Frodo's sharpness - snapping at Pippin like that! I think Pippin handled it pretty well, actually. I wonder if Frodo is hypoglycaemic?

I do like that he now looks at Sam with respect, and can see the change in him from one meeting with Elves.

One thing I didn't mention before was the quick reflexes and speed of hobbits, who can move without the big folk seeing them if they choose ... this was not even attempted in the movie, and I had forgotten it.

Oh noooooo, the chase is on. It's like my worst nightmares come to haunt me in book fashion; darkness dogging your steps. Why is eighteen miles so faaaaaaarrrrrrrr? Happy Elf-juice, pretty songs and then that awful WAIL ... now THAT the film did well! I can hear it right now!

Ah, Frodo has grown up. The slow burn approach is more suited to a series, but can you imagine being on episode four and having to wait a week to find out what happens next? Tolkien is a master suspense-builder, but I just wanna binge-watch and let my heart get over the fight or flight I get from reading this.

Ch 5:

Oh shoot ... Merry is the freaking black rider? *dies* I feel like I'm on the frickin' road with them here. I do not remember this at all - the movie had completely overtaken this, I was waiting for the showdown at the ferry!

Hmmm ... I don't remember Frodo's dream at all, and I don't get the significance of it..... I shall read back through this thread and see if anyone else explained it.

[Boromir88]

Lirimaer, I really appreciate your stream-of-consciousness like thoughts on your reading. Good stuff and entertaining :D

The Old Forest

Well, now for roughly 30 pages we are going to pretty much forget about the Ring for the time being and be pulled into the land of Tom Bombadil. Where's Gandalf? But the real question is where are the Ringwraiths? The quest gets put on hold for a moment and a few nights in the house of Bombadil they all sort of forget about their dangerous journey.

It actually feels like the Old Forest isn't exactly a part of Middle-earth. Yes, the Witch-King had sent evil spirits to inhabit the barrows of the Barrow-downs, but I'd imagine they would have found out that when Frodo left the Shire he went through the Old Forest? Maybe not, but why not pursue them in the forest? Unless, they thought he'd have to make towards Bree because they couldn't hide in the Old Forest forever. It does make me wonder with Bombadil and these chapters feeling separate from the Ring story if Sauron and the Ringwraiths maybe didn't have a power/presence there (aside from the barrow-wights).

As Fredegar says (and we all soon find out) just because they've shaken off the Nazgul pursuit, doesn't mean the Old Forest is a vacation. There are different dangers and powers here perhaps older than Sauron. As a young reader way back in the day I can see how this part would seem annoying and an unnecessary delay. It's like, ok, nice...the ring? What's happening with that, we spent 3 chapters of our hobbits being pursued by unknown black riders and having some very close calls, now for the next 3 chapters that's all forgotten? However, it adds remarkable depth to the world, as there are these tiny pockets that pop up and appear (for the most part) untouched by Sauron's influence...yet they provide their own obstacles and perils.

I was very much into Old Man Willow's story this time. The description of the Willow's power, its song, the anger and rage of these ancient trees that are now sort of under Old Man Willow's domain is fabulous. The previous chapters, I didn't quite keep an accurate count but there had to be at least 4 or 5 times it was mentioned the hobbits sleeping/resting underneath the protection of a tree, or feeling unsafe having to leave Woodhall and crossing open territory. Then Tolkien throws us a curve ball in a "when trees go bad" chapter. It's lovely to read again.

I think perhaps one of my favorite passages, because of the image it creates is when Merry tells the story of when the trees made an attack against the Hedge:

'But at night things can be most alarming, or so I am told. I have only once or twice been in here after dark, and then only near the hedge. I thought all the trees were whispering to each other, passing news and plots along in an unintelligible language; and the branches swayed and grope without any wind. They do say the trees do actually move, and can surround strangers and hem them in. In fact long ago they attacked the Hedge; they came and planted themselves right by it, and leaned over it. But the hobbits came and cut down hundreds of trees, and made a great bonfire in the Forest, and burned all the ground in a long strip east of the Hedge. After that the trees gave up the attack, but they became very unfriendly. There is still a wide bare space not far inside where the bonfire was made.'

What a great description. On one hand giving consciousness to the trees 'long ago they attacked the Hedge' and after the bonfire they 'gave up the attack.' Then with the other, using words that well, sound like your normal non-walking trees... 'planted themselves right by it' and 'leaned over it.'. But Merry's making it sound like a conscious attack by the trees and I'm thinking would be the Ted Sandyman...planted themselves? Leaned over it? What are you talking about...that's what trees DO. It's called GROWING all plants do it.

[Lirimaer]

Well that's good, since I don't plan on changing it!!

I have to say, hearing the Dwarves' song tune (from the movie) in my head while reading Frodo's new lyrics for his own adventure flight made it a much more satisfying experience for me. I know Tolkien loves to incorporate songs into his writing, but I don't naturally make up lovely tunes for them, and they generally have fallen a bit flat in my head (a bit singsong and weird); (I may have been known to skip them entirely) but with the weight of Howard Shore and Co. behind them, they gain resonance.

Ch 6:

I guess half his dream was incorporating Merry's candle and the smell of the breakfast Sam was cooking - bacon, unless I miss my guess. It seems odd to me now, but I have never been a religious stop-at-the-end-of-a-chapter kind of reader and I find doing so is interesting, if only to witness the authors hooks.

Frodo tried to sing a song to encourage them, singing about all the woods' end and fail ... oh dear Frodo, way to make the situation better! It is almost like this was an activate hostility switch, upping the level from moderate. Clearly as the message passed along the roots and mycellium, the level of hostility grew extremely high with every passing footstep of the travelling hobbits.

Sleepiness seemed to be creeping out of the ground and up their legs, and falling softly out of the air upon their heads and eyes.

That is quite the superpower! I suspect the mycellium. Spores, you know.

Willows, incidentally, are my favourite tree. I have loved them since I was a child for their glorious waterfall of light shining through lime green streamers. It was further compounded by one of my favourite books, Andy Pandy and the Willow Tree, and I will still stop a car and go and love on a beautiful willow. I do not know what Tolkien had against them, but he and I should have had a long argument about it over a bottle of the Old Winyards if I lived in another age. That this Old Man Willow has something wrong is evident in his very look, for a grey trunk and grey and yellow leaves is not the look of a healthy willow. Willows can take a lot of water, hence why they are often planted in Somerset, where we have a lot of flooding, but this one is over-watered - his dying yellow leaves are displaying his sad state for all to see.

It is a measure of their druggedness, I feel, that would make a hobbit curl under this tree.

Sam sat down and scratched his head, and yawned like a cavern. He was worried. The afternoon was getting late, and he thought this sudden sleepiness uncanny. ‘There’s more behind this than sun and warm air,’ he muttered to himself. ‘I don’t like this great big tree. I don’t trust it. Hark at it singing about sleep now! This won’t do at all!’

I love Sam so much. I neglected to say back in the Gildor encounter that I was SO GLAD that it was the Elves that said to him, "Don't you leave him, Samwise Gamgee!" I feel like they had a powerful influence, and not just in motivation, but something in their song and food and drink which gave Sam the ability to do as he promised, a strengthening for the road ahead, perhaps. I realise this is probably a little out there, but ymmv is a delightful answer to that. Anyway, alone of the hobbits, he doesn't succumb to sleep - but in his absence the tree makes its move - the Dr Who Weeping Angels are kind of like this villain, never moving when you can see them. It is eeeeeeeeevil.

I have a strong feeling that Tom Bombadil (who will forever be renamed in my head, Thom, who played him here with such a strong kindness, before he went off to be Treebeard) was alerted to the situation long before Frodo's panicked cry for help, but with Tom's typical laissez faire attitude, he just thought he'd swing by and see what had got all the trees in such a pickle while he was collecting some flowers for his lady.

The power of song is so explicitly shown in this chapter that we can only assume that if Tolkien had had time to finish his whole legendarium the way he wanted it, we would have much more evidence of the power of song than we currently do, and we do already have a lot. I once read David Gemmell's Echoes of the Great Song (which I loved, but now cannot remember the tale) the title is what stayed with me, and after reading the Sil, the link from the rest of the legendarium with the Ainulindalë cannot be glossed over - we are indeed reading the echoes of the great song of the Ainur, and for those who Know how, there is still creative power in song. (Perhaps this is why the Ring holds no sway over Tom; he already had greater control, without domination.) Old Man Willow uses it to destroy, but Tom uses it to put him back to sleep, not to destroy in turn, for he clearly feels pity for OMW. The repeated refrain, 'Can you hear him/me singing?' gives us the idea that if OMW hadn't heard, he would not have obeyed.

Ah yeah, we can see clearly now that Tom had no idea that strangers were in the forest being eaten by OMW, so his song must have been a general one - back to sleep now ... maybe such suppression also helps OMW's rage. He can't even express himself daily without a man sending him back to sleep ... maybe Tom's the reason for the trees' residual anger ... maybe they were trying to escape over the hedge away from Tom and the hobbits burnt them for it! ... maybe, maybe ...

‘What?’ shouted Tom Bombadil, leaping up in the air. ‘Old Man Willow? Naught worse than that, eh? That can soon be mended. I know the tune for him. Old grey Willow-man! I’ll freeze his marrow cold, if he don’t behave himself. I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Old Man Willow!’

This, while it was very comforting to read that he could help our poor protagonists on a first read-through, now reads like the tyrannical overlord ready to call down fire and brimstone for a clerical error. Now, I do like Merry and Pippin, and realise their deaths would be catastrophic, but Tom seems a little ... heavy-handed? And bi-polar?

They could not catch the words, but evidently Merry was aroused.

Endlessly amusing, Mr Tolkien.

Tom sprang away, and breaking off a hanging branch smote the side of the willow with it.

This is the first time I've ever actually considered Tom Bombadil as a character, and I know some think of him as a Maia/spirit ... but his attitude here tells me he isn't.

I like him less than I did.

[Lirimaer]

Ch 7:

‘Come dear folk!’ she said, taking Frodo by the hand. ‘Laugh and be merry! I am Goldberry, daughter of the River.’

Fair lady Goldberry!’ said Frodo at last, feeling his heart moved with a joy that he did not understand. He stood as he had at times stood enchanted by fair elven-voices; but the spell that was now laid upon him was different: less keen and lofty was the delight, but deeper and nearer to mortal heart; marvellous and yet not strange.

I am wondering if I ever read this properly before. I did tend to skim and the nuance of this is so new that I don't feel I ever considered it before. Considering I was Goldberry for a while, you'd think I might have, but ... I have no memory of this place. It is interesting to me now, as a roleplayer, to see where this fact of enchantment in the very voices of the Elves was used in his works, and it is interesting that GB's 'spell' is lesser than that of the Elves in some ways, more familiar and homely.

I just don't remember Tom Bombadil as the Master ... yet it's repeated here enough I ought to.

By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter, fair young Goldberry sitting in the rushes. Sweet was her singing then, and her heart was beating!

Is it not beating now?

I had not remembered that Frodo is particularly dream-ridden. How handy to see Gandalf's rescue, even if you don't know what you're watching - it is for the re-reader's sake that that is put in, I feel.

Frodo laughed (trying to feel pleased)

Ugh, that sick feeling. Of course, pride is a dreadful thing. Frodo does get over himself over the course of this story ... eventually, right. I do remember him becoming a better person, right?

The question of what/who Tom is is annoying me now, and I begin to see why people argue over it. Before I think I skimmed these bits and certainly didn't read the rhymes with any care. Now I'm ...

And again we have a song, this time one that summons Tom. Interesting.

[Lail]

Lirimaer, maybe Frodo just gets hangry...I get that. So do I.

That's a very interesting point about the trees, Boromir88! They were shelter for a while...until they weren't.

I have fewer thoughts overall this time, I think I was mostly just enjoying it, but I can say that I still do love Tom B. I know a lot of people don't care for him or these scenes much, but I always liked him because he seemed so jolly and carefree, but really wise beneath that outer veneer.

His house marks the first of their non-hobbit sanctuaries of safety along their FotR journey. First, Tom B's house, then Rivendell, lastly Lorien. Its interesting that time seems to pass without notice in both Tom B's house and Lorien. (I can't remember if the same is true of Rivendell or not.)

I thought it interesting that Merry says the "Withywindle valley is said to be the queerest part of the whole wood - the centre from which all the queerness comes, as it were." By my understanding, Tom B lives near the Withywindle, right? So is he there because of the queerness or is the queerness because of him?

"The deep folds in the ground were discovered unexpectedly, like the ruts of great giant-wheels or wide moats and sunken roads long disused and choked with brambles. These lay usually right across their line of march, and could only be crossed by scrambling down and out again, which was troublesome and difficult with their ponies.

My imagination read this part and thought - these are ancient Ent footprints! I have nothing to back me up but my imagination likes the idea.

Reading of Tom B's mysterious nature again with fresh eyes, I suddenly had a thought that it seems like his songs contain some kind of power or magic in addition to his nature-lore. Does anyone else get this impression?

"I'll freeze his [Old Man Willow] roots off. I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away."

Shortly after this, Tom sings into the crack of Old Man Willow and Merry and Pippin are freed.

He teaches them the song to sing if they get into trouble, which then does seem to summon him when Frodo sings it in the Barrow downs and then Tom sort of banishes the wight with his song.

[Lirimaer]

I notice you're making similar points re: song to me, @Lailorn. It is nice to notice new things in old favourites.

Ch 8:

either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver,

Nice to see the lyrics from Into the West here! More of Frodo in dreamland here, but worryingly, he is beginning to confuse what is dream and what is not.

He seems to succumb to sleep a great deal in the Old Forest/Barrow Downs area. I wonder if this is linked with his growing dream sensitivity (it doesn't explain everyone else's succumbing also, though.

The sinister chill song of the wight, I had forgotten that this was the origin of it, since Gollum was given the opening line to say in the films. I also like that Tom's incantation to wake them undoes the incantation in the wight's.

None has ever caught him yet, for Tom, he is the master:
His songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.

The incantation to summon a far-distant Tom and his almost immediate arrival is ... magic. Did he sing a song of speed to get here so quickly? I suspect that he did! Goodbye, wight

Be glad, my merry friends, and let the warm sunlight heat now heart and limb! Cast off these cold rags! Run naked on the grass, while Tom goes a-hunting!

I do not remember AT ALL that this happened and that they ended up in their winter-wear. Tom has their measure though - these four hobbits would indeed find more danger to get into if he did not take them to the border!

He chose for himself from the pile a brooch set with blue stones, many-shaded like flax-flowers or the wings of blue butterflies. He looked long at it, as if stirred by some memory, shaking his head, and saying at last: ‘Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!’

Do we know the lady he speaks of?

‘Few now remember them,’ Tom murmured, ‘yet still some go wandering, sons of forgotten kings walking in loneliness, guarding from evil things folk that are heedless.’

Tom knows a lot of history, for one who doesn't leave his own lands. I am glad they have the knives. I think the film was a lot slapdash about having Strider just hand them out like party favours ... did he just carry them under his cloak?

Their new weapons they hung on their leather belts under their jackets, feeling them very awkward, and wondering if they would be of any use. Fighting had not before occurred to any of them as one of the adventures in which their flight would land them.

This is such a REAL thought. In a lot of roleplay we read - in fact, a lot of fiction too - the protagonists have weapons everywhere and barely think about using them against others. RPGs barely begin without people secreting weapons into every feasible position ... I do like the fact that the hobbits, who KNOW they have the Dark Lord's ring which he is sending his servants after, hadn't considered needing a weapon yet! It is a huge thing to pick up a weapon which is designed for killing and carry it on your person openly - even without using it.

Out east my knowledge fails. Tom is not master of Riders from the Black Land far beyond his country.’ All the same the hobbits wished he was coming with them. They felt that he would know how to deal with Black Riders,

See now, Tom singing hey dol a merry dol to the Black Riders is something I would like to witness.

‘I am sorry to take leave of Master Bombadil,’ said Sam. ‘He’s a caution and no mistake. I reckon we may go a good deal further and see naught better, nor queerer.

It's been a good few years since I've heard that phrase ... it's barely used now. In a good few years, no one will know have any idea what a caution is, and will have to search the internet. Quite rude there, Sam, but you are quite right, of course.

Eeeeeeeeeeee - and now we're off to Bree!

[Boromir88]

In The House of Tom Bombadil

Well, Frodo asks the question everyone itches to ask when we first meet this strange man..."Who is Tom Bombadil?" We don't get much from Goldberry and we get even less from Tom, then just some vague guesses from Gandalf later.

@Lirimaer indeed Tom does seem to know a lot for someone who stays within his own borders. He knows Farmer Maggot and Gildor and that's how Tom knew the hobbits were passing through his land.

He appeared already to know much about them and all their families, and indeed to know much of all the history and doings of the Shire down from days hardly remembered among the hobbits themselves. It no longer surprised them; but he made no secret that he owed his recent knowledge largely to Farmer Maggot, whom he seemed to regard as a person of more importance than they had imagined. 'There's earth under his old feet, and clay on his fingers, wisdom in his bones, and both his eyes are open,' said Tom. It was also clear that Tom had dealings with the Elves, and it seemed that in some fashion, news had reached him from Gildor concerning the flight of Frodo.

Tom's more well connected than I ever remembered! Going back to A Shortcut to Mushrooms, where Frodo feels Maggot giving him a look that he knows more about Frodo's peril than he's letting on. Turns out that meeting with Maggot and Gildor was more important than we realized at the time. It's from them Tom learned to keep a look out, as he tells the hobbits it was no plan of his to be nearby when they fell into Old Man Willow's trap.

Tom is the Master...but what does that mean!? It's interesting that this name for Tom doesn't mean what we (and Frodo) assumes it means. Tom is the Master, so Frodo naturally asks: 'Then all this strange land belongs to him?'

'No, indeed!' she answered, and her smile faded. 'That would indeed be a burden,' she added in a low voice, as if to herself. 'The trees and the grasses and all the things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves. Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow. He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master.'

We hear 'master' and assumed ownership, but that's not what Goldberry means by the name. She seems rather...put out ('her smile faded'), as if she can't find the proper words to explain who Tom is. Sam calls Frodo, 'Master' and and it is a servant-ownership relationship at this part of the story. So, Goldberry refers to Tom as 'Master' and Frodo assumes Tom owns all this strange land. It's a classic example of two people talking past each other, and the awkwardness that we've all experienced in those situations.

It's interesting because this happens with Sam and Galadriel when he wants to see 'elf-magic'. Goldberry can't seem to find the right wording, because to her and Tom 'Master' has a different meaning than ownership of things/others. I'm now really fascinated to read again how Frodo's and Sam's relationship drastically changes.

My guess is Goldberry's trying to say Tom is master of himself. Nothing belongs to Tom, but Tom isn't owned by anything either: his songs are stronger songs and his feet are faster. No one's caught Tom! It all sounds like a bunch of nonsense to us, but well..he is the Master (of his own self). And why we're all thrown off by Tom and the Ring. That throws a giant wrench into what we've so far been led to believe. Gandalf is serious, magic rings are not to be messed with their powers are far too dangerous for a person to control. Then there's Tom doing infuriating parlor tricks with the Ring...well, because he is the Master. Not even the Ring can catch Tom!

The dreams in Tom's house are fascinating too. I agree, Lirimaer, I love how Tolkien inserts Gandalf's escape for us into Frodo's dream. Just throw that onto the massive and growing pile of things I've forgotten. It actually gets me wondering if Gandalf sent these visions to Frodo telepathically. There is a fascinating connection between Tom's house and Lothlorien. When Frodo looks into the Mirror of Galadriel he sees the 'white wizard' and thinks it's a vision of Saruman. It was actually a vision of Gandalf being sent back and re-robed in White. This is a dream of Gandalf's escape from Orthanc, and the galloping hoofs, he wakes up assuming it's black riders.

I'm squeeing with excitement during this re-read because it's like a lot of things are coming back to me, which is also giving a 'first time' reading experience. Back in the Shire, Frodo hears hoofs galloping, he thinks 'oh let me hide and play a prank on Gandalf for being late!' Wait...it's not Gandalf, it's creepy and sketchy black riders! Now we're all more cautious about hearing hoofs galloping, it's like we're being conditioned to associate that sound with it must be the black riders. At Bucklebury Ferry, again the sound of hoofs is quite scary to everyone...oh wait it's only Merry. Frodo has a dream about Gandalf's escape, and then galloping hoofs, but we've been conditioned to think like Frodo's reaction "Black Riders!" (or when Frodo has a vision of the White Wizard, 'it's Saruman!'). Well, no, it's not...it's Gandalf. While Frodo's in Tom's house, Gandalf now with Shadowfax, is racing back to The Shire. From the timeline in Appendix B I see, Gandalf crosses the Isen and then the Greyflood.

[Menolly]

I really enjoyed this read through of Tom and Goldberry more than I have before. It feels less like a nonsensical interlude and more like a deliberate addition to this world. Tom's music is of course magic, isn't it? I mean, Tolkien's entire creation myth is musical, so it makes sense that he would create an echo of it here. I had completely forgotten that Tom puts the ring on and then *gasp* doesn't disappear! When I first read it I was almost irritated, like Tolkien was breaking his own rules for what the ring could and couldn't do, but now I love it. It accentuates just how much Tom and Goldberry are not quite of this world, and not at all like anyone else, and also demonstrates Tom's considerable power (within his own land, of course).

@Lirimaer Thank you for pointing out that use of "caution" in describing Tom Bombadil. I think I had always read right past it and inferred a meaning that wasn't exactly right, because I can't recall ever using the word caution to describe someone or something. I had to look it up and it does indeed fit Tom very well!

Also, as to your question about the brooch Tom took from the barrow for Goldberry, I always wondered that too, so I googled. There are lots of threads on reddit and other forums about it. Here's the first result when I googled "lotr brooch with blue stones" or something to that effect. There's a quote in the appendices that the barrow likely belonged to the last prince of Cardolan, so it seems likely the brooch belonged to his wife, or some other fair lady who was important in the prince's life.

[Lirimaer]

Ah, thanks, for looking, @Menolly - I kind of meant 'is she mentioned elsewhere in Tolkien's writings?' since it's the kind of thing he would do - leave a throwaway line somewhere as a callback.

Frodo's assumption is not mine. Just because he misunderstands Tom, doesn't mean the reader must. By the time Frodo questions Goldberry, we have ample evidence that the question is somewhat ill-conceived. I had just forgotten that it was Tom's title for himself and that all the hobbits used it so frequently.

[Boromir88]

@Lirimaer ah, I see I did explain myself rather poorly. These chapters in the Old Forest, for whatever reason, I've been reading through Frodo's eyes this time. So, I mean't "we" as myself and Frodo and didn't intend the "we assume" directed to you and all readers.

Frodo hasn't looked too good in these first handful of chapters, in my opinion, and I've caught myself looking at everything from his perspective. There is a lot I didn't remember and it has me interested continuing the re-read through Frodo's eyes and how his perspective may change. I don't know, I'm just guessing by the time Frodo comes full circle he will have a better understanding of what 'Tom is the Master' means.

[Lirimaer]

Loquaciously put, my friend!

[Lail]

Yes, @Lirimaer, isn't it just? That's one of my favorite things about re-reading a favorite book - all the new things you take away each time.

I was also wondering about the mysterious previous owner of the blue brooch! Thanks for sharing your findings with us, @Menolly! That answer certainly makes sense to me, even though, I too, hoped it was a little "easter egg" from another work of Tolkien's. It seems its not really.

I also love the continuation of the dreams and find them all so interesting. I always wondered if any of those dreams were perhaps sent or influenced by Lorien/Irmo? Extra interesting then is the one with Gandalf, who I think served Irmo along with Nienna and Manwe.

Funny you should say that about Frodo, @Boromir88! I do agree he comes off a bit...snobbish, I guess, but all the same I'm finding myself connect with him this reading more than I ever have before. I'm finding that very interesting. When I was younger, I sort of thought "meh well Frodo may be the "main character" but everyone else is so much more interesting!"

[Boromir88]

Fog on the Barrow-downs

@Lailorn right? Particularly in Fog on the Barrow-downs. It's a fleeting thought, but he considers just leaving his friends in the barrow:

At first Frodo felt as if he had indeed been turned into stone by the incantation. Then a wild thought of escape came to him. He wondered if he put on the Ring, whether the Barrow-wight would miss him, and he might find some way out. He thought to himself running free over the grass, grieving for Merry, and Sam, and Pippin, but free and alive himself. Gandalf would admit that there had been nothing else he could do.

Frodo isn't quite the brave 'hero' I remembered. Bilbo felt pretty useless to the dwarves in the start, but he still put himself out and in peril for a company of dwarves that showed up unexpectedly on his doorstep. These are Frodo's childhood friends and he has a moment of selfishness, only wondering about his own escape and surely Gandalf would agree there was nothing Frodo could do.

It makes me wonder what Gandalf would have said? I don't think he'd have the reaction that Frodo thinks he would. Gandalf (and Bilbo) did quite a lot for their friends and even if they failed they at least would always try. Here, Frodo thinks about just giving up and surely Gandalf would understand.

That was sort of my initial thought, but then thinking about Frodo's point of view it's not quite as simple.

1. We all have the 'fight or flight' response and if we're not in that situation it's always easier to say you would have done differently, until you're actually in that situation. I would like to think I'd be brave and not just give up 3 of my friends for dead, but what if I had a magical ring that made me invisible? I'm just glad being trapped in a barrow with an evil supernatural being is not a situation I'll ever be in.

2. Based on how fleeting the thought is "what if I put on the Ring and escape?" I wonder what influence the Ring had on Frodo to put that thought in his head?

Some other things in this chapter...as I said in my Favorite Chapters thread, I think Fog on the Barrow-downs is such a great name for chapter. Sort of archaic words that make me feel were getting set up for something bad's going to happen.

Then surprise, surprise Tom seems to have some knowledge about Bree and Barliman Butterbur. He is definitely more well connected to the world outside his borders than I remembered. And it's Tom who suggests to the hobbits to go to Bree, which overall does make sense and I believe Gandalf anticipated the hobbits would have to stop there on their journey.

And finally something that Tom doesn't know:

'No, I hope not tonight,' answered Tom Bombadil; 'nor perhaps the next day. But do not trust my guess; for I cannot tell for certain. Out east my knowledge fails. Tom is not the master of Riders from the Black Land far beyond his country.'

So 8 chapters in and we still pretty much know nothing about the Ringwraiths. I don't even think they've been referred to as the Nazgul or Ringwraiths yet? They're riders, in black robes, work for Sauron, after a Baggins and the Ring, sniff a lot, have a shriek that sounds 'lonely' (the description of their shriek has always been so cool and that I have never forgotten ). But everyone so far seems unable or unwilling to tell us more other than "stay away from them, isn't that enough." The one person who could have informed us has been missing. Which, I used to hold against Gandalf, like really? You couldn't have given us some sort of warning about these riders? But this time, I believe the last time we saw Gandalf the Nazgul were not yet 'revealed' by Sauron. That is they had not been released yet. It makes them all the more fascinating, curious and dangerous :D

[Androthelm]

Then surprise, surprise Tom seems to have some knowledge about Bree and Barliman Butterbur. He is definitely more well connected to the world outside his borders than I remembered. And it's Tom who suggests to the hobbits to go to Bree, which overall does make sense and I believe Gandalf anticipated the hobbits would have to stop there on their journey.

This was a really interesting moment for me as well, particularly with a thread a month or so ago which did point out Tolkien's early edits of Farmer Maggot and the potential that he was not, in fact, a hobbit at all -- but rather a creature after the kind of Bombadil.
More broadly, I think there's interesting discussion to be had about inter-regional contact in Middle-Earth broadly. The Hobbits don't frequently travel beyond the Shire (and almost never, it seems, past Bree), but Elves and Dwarves alike do pass through their lands and we do get those references in early chapters to rumors--of Mordor and the "shadow in the east" coming to Frodo via dwarven travelers as early as Chapter 2.

And finally something that Tom doesn't know:
'No, I hope not tonight,' answered Tom Bombadil; 'nor perhaps the next day. But do not trust my guess; for I cannot tell for certain. Out east my knowledge fails. Tom is not the master of Riders from the Black Land far beyond his country.'

So 8 chapters in and we still pretty much know nothing about the Ringwraiths. I don't even think they've been referred to as the Nazgul or Ringwraiths yet? They're riders, in black robes, work for Sauron, after a Baggins and the Ring, sniff a lot, have a shriek that sounds 'lonely' (the description of their shriek has always been so cool and that I have never forgotten ). But everyone so far seems unable or unwilling to tell us more other than "stay away from them, isn't that enough." The one person who could have informed us has been missing. Which, I used to hold against Gandalf, like really? You couldn't have given us some sort of warning about these riders? But this time, I believe the last time we saw Gandalf the Nazgul were not yet 'revealed' by Sauron. That is they had not been released yet. It makes them all the more fascinating, curious and dangerous :D

This is really interesting, though, because while on the one hand Tom is not able to say for sure the power of the Black Riders, he does seem to know who they are and where they come from. Like Gildor, Tom could give Frodo some guidance -- but chooses not to.

[Lail]

Fog on the Barrow-downs

@Lailorn right? Particularly in Fog on the Barrow-downs. It's a fleeting thought, but he considers just leaving his friends in the barrow:

At first Frodo felt as if he had indeed been turned into stone by the incantation. Then a wild thought of escape came to him. He wondered if he put on the Ring, whether the Barrow-wight would miss him, and he might find some way out. He thought to himself running free over the grass, grieving for Merry, and Sam, and Pippin, but free and alive himself. Gandalf would admit that there had been nothing else he could do.

I had similar thoughts upon initially reading this passage, too. But then I also rethought it and actually appreciated how honest this was. I am sure many of us would at least have a fleeting thought of doing the same in the same, or similar, situation. I think its very much an automatic fight or flight response. I don't think the Ring has anything to do with it.

I don't even remember how or when Frodo finds out more about the Black Riders in the books, but I wonder if no one is sharing their knowledge as a weird way of protecting him? Maybe they think it will be too scary for him to handle right now.

[Boromir88]

At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

So we have left the strange world of Bombadil, the Old Forest and are back in Middle-earth. I like the description of Bree, it's a mix of Big and Little Folk, but there's quite a lot of diversity as of course there's dwarf travelers again. There's also the strangers that came up from the south who are different from the Bree-folk. Then the odd Rangers that pop in from time-to-time. I never quite liked the portrayal of Bree in the movies and after reading this chapter again I remembered why.

The town itself I think had the right feel. The hobbits are definitely feeling displaced and not in the Shire anymore. Sam doesn't want to go in the Prancing Pony, and suggests they find one of the hobbit families in the area to stay the night. Inside the inn though is not right. The purpose of the inn was to make the hobbits feel like they were in the Shire, yet they were not (and trouble would come of it), as Merry warned:

Merry said it would be too stuffy. 'I shall sit here quietly by the fire for a bit, and perhaps go out later for a sniff of the air. Mind your Ps and Qs, and don't forget that you are supposed to be escaping in secret, and are still on the high-road and not very far from the Shire!'

Again, Merry being the sensible and mature one of the group, reminding them not to get too comfortable or home-y feeling. Then again, Pippin has a foreboding warning for Merry:

'All right!' said Pippin 'Mind yourself! Don't get lost, and don't forget that it is safer indoors!'

But the inn is meant to give the hobbits a false sense of security. There's other hobbits. A hobbit family of Underhills that are led to believe that 'Mr. Underhill' has to be a relative. There's good beer and good plain hobbit food. There's even rooms especially made for hobbits on the ground level with 'round windows' as the Shire-folk usually prefer. The Prancing Pony in the movie was really dingy and full of sketchy Big Folk.

After Frodo makes a fool of himself, I like the subtlety in something Aragorn says:

'You have put your foot in it! Or should I say your finger?'

I always focused on the latter statement, the alarm pings "how does this Strider know about the Ring?" But this time it was the 1st statement that I noticed because "you have put your foot in it" is one of Bilbo's common expressions. A nice subtle hint towards Bilbo's and Aragorn's friendship and I smiled when I read that line.

Tolkien does have a nice habit of leaving us on the edge of our seats, and maybe why despite the length, sometimes I'm just never able to put the foot down. We end with Frodo promising private meetings with two people and Frodo rather flustered wondering how many strangers there are are curious about him (although, as Bilbo and Aragorn(!) would tell him 'you did put your foot in it'). I really love Frodo's thoughts right at the end:

'Certainly!' said Frodo; but his heart sank. He wondered how many private talks he would have before he got to bed, and what they would reveal. Were these people all in league against him? He began to suspect even old Butterbur's fat face of concealing dark designs.

Talk about suspense!

[Mojo]

Hey all, sorry for disappearing for a week or so there. Real life got the best of me and I got a little behind on reading too. I'm slowly starting to catch up (finished the Fog on the Barrow Downs chapter this evening). I'll read through everyone's comments tomorrow. Glad to see this thing still has momentum, thank you all for continuing the discussion!

For now, here's a picture of my daughter sleeping on my lap while I start the Prancing Pony chapter:

[Androthelm]

At the Sign of the Prancing Pony


The town itself I think had the right feel. The hobbits are definitely feeling displaced and not in the Shire anymore.

...

But the inn is meant to give the hobbits a false sense of security.

I like this point, and think it's one of the struggles in depicting Bree. On the one hand, Bree is fundamentally a good place -- there are more Hobbits and kind men like Butterbur than there are cruel ones like Ferny, and we'll hear (much, much later) about the struggle to keep Bree free while the war rages in the south. But, on the other hand, it is definitely not the Shire. For the first time, I think, we are seeing what happens to a land which is neither deeply corrupted (think Rohan during Grima's peak) nor fully defended (as the Shire was for so long) nor weary from long war (as Gondor will be). Bree is just... there. It's the most normal, default of all the cities we've seen, with dangers and safeties, with good people and bad, and that is hard to transition to the screen.

[Lirimaer]

@Mojo Glad to see you again. If RL didn't suck you in after have a baby, your priorities would be waaaayyyy wrong! Your daughter is gorgeous - I am surprised you made it back to us so soon!

Ch 9:

The man stared after the hobbits for a moment, and thenhe went back to his house. As soon as his back was turned, adark figure climbed quickly in over the gate and melted intothe shadows of the village street.

Is this supposed to be Strider? I guess I've always just assumed it's Strider, but it seems to have so little bearing on the narrative it hardly matters. Still, I'd like to know what you all think.

So much is about the ponies ... I had forgotten, after a million years of not reading the book and only watching the films, that they've been on horseback (mostly) since Crickhollow. The book very excellently gives us the weariness of long travel (without the aches) in the days it takes folk to get anywhere, even in the time taken to describe this journey out of the Shire. (Incidentally, I was in West Buckland today - didn't see any Hobbits, though.) Eighteen miles this way, still a few miles up the road ... it's such a slog that you really feel like they've walked from Oxford to London (or wherever). I saw the film again on Saturday, and the errors are GLARING! The speed with which the Hobbits get to Bree makes a mockery of the size of the Shire, and "It's six days to Rivendell!" (which I know we haven't come to yet, but it's relevant) where the horse goes so fast it travels SIX DAYS worth of walking in a ten minute ride!? It didn't even get dark! Storytelling and worldbuilding: Tolkien 1 PJ 0

You’ll be wanting supper, I don’t doubt. As soon as may be. This way now!’ He led them a short way down a passage, and opened a door. ‘Here is a nice little parlour!’ he said.

This is such an old-timey quirk, which England used to have for travelling gentry. Generally someone would be sent on ahead to bespeak a parlour for the coach coming along behind, but for an obviously highborn traveller arriving unexpectedly, such places were usually made immediately available, even if it meant turfing someone else out - dependent upon their status of course. Nowadays, "You can have your meal at the bar or in the restaurant, but we stopped serving hot food an hour ago ..." Quality service, you see! Once upon a time, we used to have it. It shows the esteem that Hobbits are held in to have such a room available for them. Truly Bree is (excellent) equally Big and Little Folk friendly.

I love descriptions of cheese as 'ripe'. I am not entirely sure what it means, assume it to mean 'at its best' - but my immediate connotations are that you should eat it with fruit!!

It's been said already, that book!Merry and book!Pippin are eminently sensible and it shows - but can I invite you all to rewatch the beginning of the film again with this in mind and feel the heaviness of heart I felt upon watching these noble characters, who watched and waited and schemed and planned and chose to leave their homes and go wherever their friend was going ... be utterly maligned.

I do fancy that introducing [a visitor to your inn] to everyone in the inn is a strange way of carrying on. I suppose if they didn't want it, they should have stayed in their parlour.

But there’s no accounting for East and West, as we say in Bree, meaning the Rangers and the Shire-folk, begging your pardon.

This is hilariously true and such a very pinpoint accurate microcosm of English life that it makes me cringe. Every village thinks the ones next to them are the weird ones. But to say it to their faces!!

‘You had better do something quick!’ whispered Strider in his ear.
Frodo jumped up and stood on a table, and began to talk.

This is the LAST thing I expected from Frodo. It just gets worse from there when he gets heckled into singing. Peer pressure, Frodo - you do not HAVE to cave to it! But having sung it once, then he begins again ... karaoke is a terrible terrible addiction!

In the book, this is only the second time Frodo wears the ring, I think? In the film, it's the first, but already the weird effect of the EYE is freaking him out. I much prefer the slow slow pull of the ring's rightful owner on Frodo as he becomes more susceptible to its power. It starts out with no bother - a cool magic ring which turns you invisible; Bilbo wore it regularly, no big deal! Frodo's not even alerted to the Wraiths at this time, he just feels a fool!

Is 'to put your foot in it?' a particular saying of Bilbo's, @Boromir88? It's not one I'd have ever picked up on, since it's so commonplace I can't say I'd noticed it.

I do enjoy Strider's forced calm here. He does nothing to draw attention to himself, he provokes Frodo into action, but doesn't react at all when it all goes pear-shaped, but he knows what's going on. Here we have a man in superb control of himself, Tolkien presents him as a thinker; rational, measured, patient. Not panicking, hoicking hobbits upstairs away from his friends ...

Ah, PJ. If only you had loved the book.

[Boromir88]

@Mojo she's so precious No worries we'll keep the fire going as they do in the Prancing Pony.

@Lirimaer I think PJ nailed the visual introduction:

Suddenly Frodo noticed that a strange-looking weather-beaten man, sitting in the shadows near the wall, was also listening intently to the hobbit-talk. He had a tall tankard in front of him, and was smoking a long-stemmed pipe curiously carved. His legs were stretched out before him, showing high boots of supple leather that fitted him well, but had seen much wear and were now caked with mud. A travel-stained cloak of heavy dark-green cloth was drawn close about him, and in spite of the heat of the room he wore a hood that overshadowed his face; but the gleam of his eyes could be seen as he watched the hobbits.

Visually, a rather spot on introduction of Strider. When Frodo and the rest actually meet him...uh it just goes downhill from there.

Is 'to put your foot in it?' a particular saying of Bilbo's, @Boromir88? It's not one I'd have ever picked up on, since it's so commonplace I can't say I'd noticed it.

Yes it is very common perhaps it's not the same as one of Bilbo's recognizable songs. I previously read The Hobbit and it pops in that story too from Bilbo:

Then Mr. Baggins turned the handle and went in. The Took side had won. He suddenly felt he would go without bed and breakfast to be thought fierce. As for little fellow bobbing on the mat it almost made him really fierce. Many a time afterwards the Baggins part regretted what he did now, and he said to himself: "Bilbo, you were a fool; you walked right in and put your foot in it." (An Unexpected Party)

I think there's another part in The Hobbit where that is phrase is used, but it's something that stuck out in my last reading. Now, I imagine when Bilbo is telling everyone about his adventures he includes that phrase "And right then I said to myself, Bilbo you fool you gone and put your foot in it."

[Lirimaer]

Ahhh, headcanon. Gotcha.

[Androthelm]

I do think, @Lirimaer, that you're right to think the figure which climbs the gate is probably Strider. After all, Ferny or the Southerner wouldn't need to creep in and out of the city without alerting the guard, and if the Black Riders were so close behind then well... I suspect the quest might have ended there.

Plus, as we will later find out, Strider was eavesdropping on them outside of Bree, so it does put him there about then. I wonder when he got ahead, to beat them to the Prancing Pony's common-room?

[Lirimaer]

Something to do with those long shanks, I suspect