LOTR Read-Along Book I

[Androthelm]

Now I'm imagining Strider leaping over the rooftops of Bree, Spring-Heel Jack style, legs FLYING in the wind. Thanks a ton for that

[Boromir88]

It indeed was Strider!

'That interested me so much that I followed them here. I slipped over the gate just behind them.'

Strider

I think I love this chapter, because of its tone. It's dark and creepy. The Black Riders know he's in Bree now, or will find out from the creep Bill Ferny. How is Frodo ever going to be able to escape Bree? And even if he manages that what's to stop them from riding him down in the wild? But there's also quite a lot of humor.

Gandalf's letter and the various "PS" and "PPPS" You can definitely tell he was in a hurry writing it, but I find the various "post-post-postscripts" funny.

Butterbur I see a lot of your normal ordinary person with a kind heart and who wants to help. Yet, he has his own business to tend to and his memory is atrocious. I remembered Butterbur's mistake to not send the letter and his good heart, but completely forgot how much he likes to hear himself talk in circles. It's funny, Gandalf's reputation too. I catch a bit of Sam who didn't want Gandalf to turn him into anything unnatural and Gandalf has a similar reputation with Butterbur:

'Ah! That Gandalf, if you know who I mean. A wizard they say he is, but he's a good friend of mine, whether or no. But now I don't know what he'll have to say to me, if I see him again: turn all my ale sour or me into a block of wood, I shouldn't wonder. He's a bit hasty. Still what's done can't be undone.'

Then Aragorn's got sort of a grim, wry humor which unfortunately I don't think we get in the movies.

''Then who would you take up with?' asked Strider. 'A fat innkeeper who only remembers his name because people shout it at him all day?'

And even Pippin's got his bit of comic relief. The atmosphere is almost at a boiling point, and it's guessed the inn will be attacked at night or they will be after soon setting off. After all this building suspense, Merry's missing, dreadful news and what happens...Pippin yawned

Pippin yawned. 'I am sorry,' he said, 'but I am dead tired. In spite of all the danger and worry I must go to bed, or sleep where I sit. Where is that silly fellow, Merry? It would be the last straw, if we had to go out in the dark to look for him.'

[Nen]

I just want to say, I love the pace at which this story goes. I do believe the last time I'd read The Lord of the Rings completely from the first chapter to the last, was before the movies came out. After that I'd read it in bits and pieces. I recall when I'd read it for the first time, how chilling it was.

I feel like we are going on the journey along with the hobbits -- with their good days and bad ones and troubled ones. As a reader, I sense the threat of the enemy all the time, and yet can laugh and enjoy the warm, quiet reprieves that the hobbits have because it is my reprieve as well.

I'd also forgotten how stout-hearted all four hobbits are. Merry is a very shrewd and clever little guy. And while Sam's loyalty is portrayed fairly well in the movies, and Pippin's humour as well, I think Frodo was sorely misused. He definitely is very courageous and smarty; he's keen-eyed, and hardly anything misses his glance.

And, as Boromir mentioned above, Strider appears more approachable with his wry humour and less distant than he does in the movies.

Not meaning to dis the movies, here. I really enjoyed them. But, I didn't realise how much of my memory of the story was coloured by the movies! I feel like I'm re-discovering Tolkien's Middle-earth and these characters on this reading.

[Dimcairien Luiniel]

I've fallen a bit behind (almost done with chapter 10) and will try to post tomorrow or Sunday with more cohesive thoughts when I have my book next to me (been doing my reading via audiobook), but I do want to add to the Strider love. He is such a complex character and his dry sense of humour is wonderful.

And I second with Nen about how the movies have coloured my memories of the story! I haven't read the books in about 5 or 6 years and only recently saw bits of FoTR and TTT with plaza folk on discord after about 7 or 8 years, so lots of things are surprising me in the books - such as all the dream sequences.

[Eamila Bolger]

Goodness. If it wasn't for Twitter I had not known of this thread. And this just when I have started to reread Lord of the Rings!
I saw so many things that I had not remembered anymore, so many 'oh's and ah's' while reading. The mere fact that Aragorn is already carrying Anduril... small facts like that that show how much detail Tolkien is using and how like others my remembrance has been altered by the movies.
I have finished book 1 today but will try to remember what amazed me most and post some of that in the days that are to come. We are on a holiday but will have poor weather Monday and Tuesday: lots of time to read and write apart from doing games with the kids ;-)
Thanks for starting this wonderful thread, @Mojo and what a wonderful picture of your daughter, congratulations!

[Mojo]

Catching up with everyone here, great conversation folks!

I didn't get a chance to talk about the Old Forest/Tom Bombadil/Barrow Downs chapters, but I'll just add that in the escalation of the drama, we have seen:
A Long Expected Party somewhat continues the happy-go-lucky tone of The Hobbit as it is really Bilbo's farewell, but then transitions into...
A Shadow of the Past which has the much darker undertones but even though the Ring is there the danger doesn't really seem "clear and present" as Sauron is still far away in Mordor and Gandalf even tells Frodo he doesn't have to leave immediately.
Three Is Company is when the real danger starts as we see the Black Riders appear in the Shire and pursue Frodo, Sam, and Pippin.
A Shortcut to Mushrooms gives us a bit of a reprieve in the house of Farmer Maggot, though we are aware the danger is still out there.
A Conspiracy Unmasked while having (arguably) the most sinister chapter title, is also a bit of a "calm before the storm" as the Black Riders are on the other side of the river and is mainly about the genuine friendship of the Hobbits and how much they care for Frodo.
The Old Forest (as has been noted here) presents a very different kind of danger than the Black Riders, but proves to be quite treacherous - so much so in fact that we nearly forget about the Riders over the next few chapters.
The House of Tom Bombadil is a true "reprieve" chapter that gives both the Hobbits and the reader a break from all the dangers they have faced so far, giving us a chance to catch our breath. This tone continues into the first half of the Fog on the Barrow Downs chapter, until the Hobbits take an ill-timed nap. I believe Gandalf later notes that the Barrow was in fact one of the most dangerous hurdles Frodo faced. The danger of the journey comes back to them here, and we are suddenly reminded of the Riders when they get back to the Road, ramping up the anxiety and danger once again.

This brings us to our current chapters. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony we get the small sentence about a shadowy figure hopping the wall after the Hobbits and realize that what they thought would be a happy little trip to an inn might present more danger than they anticipate. Fortunately, we find that this figure was Strider, but also that Black Riders are in Bree and there are other sinister folk about (Bill Ferny, the Southerner, etc). The danger suddenly becomes apparent with the attack on the Pony, the largest violent act towards the Hobbits we have seen so far. This all builds up to the final two chapters of Book I where the danger comes home with direct attacks on the Hobbits. We have talked a bit about the "slow burn" that Tolkien masterfully builds up, and these two chapters finally "show" rather than "reference" the potential danger to Frodo and his company before we actually encounter the Riders (the real adversaries of Book I) in the final two chapters.

One final thought (that we can explore more next week with the final two chapters) - each "Book" seems to have a different villain. While the movies took a chronological approach (which makes sense for the medium), Tolkien focuses Book I on the Hobbits journey and the adversaries of the Black Riders, leaving the Saruman storyline for Book II.

[Eamila Bolger]

Well, here we go. I had just finished Book 1 when I found out about this thread so I am going back to see what surprised, shocked or puzzled me after rereading. Here's the first chapters, with a big question to all of you in it. Really wonder your vision on it, so I will put it in green.

I have been reading in Dutch by the way so I am translating from Dutch (got the English copy at home but we are on a holiday right now so only the Dutch version with me). So sometimes I may use words that are not there in the original book, sorry ‘bout that!

1. The long expected party
What I still partly remembered is how much time went on after that long expected party. How Frodo keeps celebrating his uncle’s birthday but also starts to become the real new master of Bag End. That makes it even more shocking that he decides to move and give it to the Sackville Bagginses later on.
I love the easteregg that you mentioned, @Boromir88 About this too large cloak!
Like @Lirimaer I find it good to know that our friend Bilbo wasn’t traveling alone, but with some Dwarves! The funny thing is that they seem to treat them as their master: they were packing for him and answer him after he whistles. Instead of he waiting on them, as it was when he met the troop of Thorin for the very first time.

2. The Shadow of the Past
I have been reading back at what you all said to see if anyone else noticed this. Doesn’t seem to be so. There was something that surprised me.
Gandalf says in The Shadow of the Past that there are two powers at work, not just one. But then he doesn’t tell what that other power can be, apart from the dark power from Sauron. He just says that Bilbo might have been predestined to find the ring, but not by it’s maker. Who then was it, who predestined it? We never hear about another, ‘good’ power directing things in Middle Earth. Still Gandalf mentiones it here. ‘There is more than one power at work here, Frodo.’ And he calls it encouraging.
Any thoughts about that anyone?

3. Three is Company
Really. It took me half this chapter to realize that Merry wasn’t there. Boy, does that movie influence my memories of the real story. So glad I am rereading!
Anyway. This is the chapter in which I keep feeling this urgency… please GO ON! LEAVE!
@Boromir88 mentioned how important the concept of ‘home’ is in both Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit. That makes it even harder to see Frodo not just leave Bag End for a trip, but leaving it for good… the fact that he could do that, means a lot. He knew that life was going to be different after this… and that possession didn’t mean that much…

4. A Shortcut to Mushrooms
I really love how their journey develops here and the part Farmer Maggot plays in it. Especially with what we will learn about him later on. Also Pippin who takes the lead here and seems to be much more mature than the movies make us believe.

5. A conspiracy Unmasked
I love this chapter and how Frodo’s friends are turning out to be planning all this time. So heartwarming!

6. The Old Forest
They had no choice and Merry said he knew what he was doing but still… that forest is something. I wouldn’t trust it for the world, with paths that you don’t know where they are leading to.

7. The House of Tom Bombadil
Yes, like @Mojo says: a much needed break and still a weird one. Who is Tom Bombadil, who is Goldberry… they seem to be very isolated but then again: later on we hear that Tom knows Farmer Maggot. I still wonder whether that says more about Tom, or about Farmer Maggot! The latter seems to be a lot more than ‘just a farmer’ than thought before!

8. Fog on the Barrow Downs
Not much to add here. It did surprise me that such a nature lover as Tom is, still likes to bring his Goldberry a brooch from this treasure. Shows his love for her quite nicely.

9. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony
What strucks me first is the rather friendly description of the town and it’s inhabitants. I love how Tolkiens also describes how the hobbits from Bree and those from the Shire look at each other. How familiar to our world, to how townspeople sometimes see villagers vice versa. And here again the hobbits seem to feel that false safety. They were given separate rooms from the others. If they had stayed there, that ‘thing’ with Frodo hadn’t happened. But they chose to go into the pub and meet others. The movie makes us feel that its Pippin who is being the greatest fool there, but Frodo wasn’t so wise either…

[Lail]

@Lirimaer @Androthelm - so Strider would be the gold medalist in pole-vaulting, right?

@Boromir88 - I agree. I like the humour in this chapter alongside the darker tone. It balances out nicely. I absolutely love the P.S.es in Gandalf's letter.

Chapter 9:
Yet again, we see Merry being smart. At the gate, he intercedes and gives his name to the gate-keeper, which seems smart to me. Being a Brandybuck, we've just read that they have the most dealings with Bree-folk so its most reasonable to assume a Brandybuck would travel to Bree. Likely to raise less attention with this name.

Then, we see him decide to sit-out on joining the company (Good decision!). He even tells the other three to "Mind your Ps and Qs, and don't forget that you are supposed to be escaping in secret". He seems to take on a leadership role among the hobbits. Quite unlike his portrayal in the movies.

I wondered a bit about this passage:

"There was trouble away in the South, and it seemed that the Men who had come up the Greenway were on the move, looking for lands where they could find some peace."

Would these men be Dunlendings? (south of the Shire) or possibly Haradrim (REALLY south)?
If it is meant to be one of those two, I find it quite interesting that they are "looking for peace." Although the Dunlendings and Haradrim are painted as evil followers of Sauron and/or Saruman, part of me believes they can't all be bad and there are two sides to every story and we only ever get one of those sides.

Chapter 10:
You've all already touched upon the black shape leaping over the gate being Strider. I really liked this detail because at the time of reading, I didn't remember this and I thought 'who was that?' I really like that detail coming back around.

Now comes confession time...it might be an unpopular opinion, but I actually think the movie made some improvements to Aragorn. In previous readings, I always found him a bit haughty and the movies made him more down-to-earth. We'll see how I feel this time around.

Though I do have to say - why does he carry around the broken blade of Narsil with him? I mean, he even says to Sam, "Not much use is it, Sam?" No! So why are you lugging a broken sword around with you? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

A small detail I noticed - we get a second mention (after Sam's earlier) of Gandalf turning people into unnatural things. Butterbur says of Gandalf:

"...if I see him again: turn all my ale into sour or me into a block of wood, I shouldn't wonder."

So it seems to be more than hobbits thinking wizards can turn you into things! Where did this come from, I wonder?

Overall, I feel Butterbur is such a relatable character. He has good intentions to pass Gandalf's message along only he forgets. He clearly wants to help, but doesn't really want to put himself directly in harm's way. He's keen to see Frodo safe, suggesting he just bunker down there for a while and warns him against taking up with Strider (of course he thinks that's a bad idea). To me he seems like just a regular guy caught up in bigger dramas and he just wants to keep on with his inn but he is brave enough to help protect Frodo while he is staying there which he should get some kudos for.

Still thinking of Gandalf's errand to the south and the ill news that reached him that I mentioned from an earlier chapter...which was presumably Sauron's attack on Osgiliath. But now I find it confusing that Aragorn appears not to know what drew Gandalf away. Or else he doesn't find it relevant to tell Frodo why Gandalf left if he does indeed know. But wouldn't you think Aragorn would be concerned about Osgiliath, as part of his future kingdom?

"As I knew he was at your side, I went away on a journey of my own. And that has proved ill; for plainly some news reached him, and I was not at hand to help."

[Eamila Bolger]

@Lailorn

Would these men be Dunlendings? (south of the Shire) or possibly Haradrim (REALLY south)?

Or perhaps just men from Gondor, living so close to the land of Sauron? I wondered about this too. Seeing that they are seeking to find peace, I thought that these are men who don't want to fight for the land they were living in... whether it be men from Gondor or Rohan, or men from Harad who didn't want to join the enemy. Of course there might be those with families who wish to see their children grow up in a country without the threat of Mordor or Isengard. But as this seem to be only men, that is less logical.

Though I do have to say - why does he carry around the broken blade of Narsil with him? I mean, he even says to Sam, "Not much use is it, Sam?" No! So why are you lugging a broken sword around with you? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

I actually find it more logic that the heir of Elendils family has this sword, even when it's broken, than that it lies as a museum piece in Rivendell. Even when he speaks out to Eomer later on, Aragorn is frank about his heirloom and his destiny. In the movie he doesn't want others to know, he seems to be hiding the fact that he is 'king to be'. Others have to persuade him. In this book he seems to have adopted that fact. I see that broken sword as a reminder to himself of what is not yet, but will come to pass.

[Boromir88]

I'll most likely be able to finish reading chapters 11 and 12 tonight, but I wanted to go back a bit and 'stay in Bree', if I could? A lot of great points and questions about these two chapters that have made me curious about Bree and its inhabitants.

The Shire relates to home. It's a simple and plain life, but not completely relatable because it's also idyllic. It represents the idea and picture of what home should be, in my head. It's been protected by the rangers and Sauron (at least at that time) had no idea about the existence of the Shire. So, it's not quite real, it feels like home, or home as it should be, but it's not home to me. If that makes sense.

Then we spend 3 chapters with the enigma Tom Bombadil and his strange world. It's like the anomaly of Middle-earth. It doesn't feel like it should exist, definitely not in the 'real world.' Tom and Goldberry? Wicked trees that 'attack' and can eat hobbits? Evil wights?

After those chapters, I love Tolkien putting us right back into the ordinary. There's Bree, is it the most ordinary and 'real world' village that exists in Middle-earth? After the Old Forest chapters, I love the roller coaster Tolkien put me on...ok we're all back in the 'real world.' Bree is even more relatable than the Shire, because it's not an idyllic "home as it should be" but the ordinary "home as it really is." With good and bad people, as @Androthelm mentioned, up to this point removed from Sauron's influence and feels rather like a normal place.

Even its problems are rather normal and feel like they are problems in our world:

There was trouble away in the South, and it seemed that the Men who had come up the Greenway were on the move, looking for lands where they could find some peace. The Bree-folk were sympathetic, but plainly not very ready to take a large number of strangers into their little land. One of the travellers, a squint-eyed ill-favoured fellow, was foretelling that more and more people would be coming north in the near future. 'If room isn't found for them, they'll find it for themselves. They've a right to live, same as other folk,' he said loudly. The local inhabitants did not look pleased at the prospect

The influx of travellers from the south is curious. Who are they and where do they come from? I don't recall anything being confirmed, so more room for everyone's own speculation and imagination. I think the 'squint-eyed ill-favoured fellow' is one of Saruman's agents. So possibly Dunland?

TA 2953: Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it. Being jealous and afraid of Gandalf he sets spies to watch all his movements, and notes his interest in the Shire. He soon begins to keep agents in Bree and the Southfarthing. (Appendix B: Tale of Years)

I agree with @Lailorn about Butterbur. Up to this point on my reread, he is the most relatable character to me. I was one of the upper managers in a local restaurant for several years and I was always well organized in keeping everything where it should be and my desk was always kept fairly neat and orderly. However, Butterbur's "one thing drives out another" described my life for several years. Typing this now, I just asked myself if a friend asked for a favor and that I deliver a letter, would I remember to do it? I came to the conclusion I would have done the same exact thing as Butterbur! Not so much now, but definitely at my former job. I mean I've always known my name, but I was accused several times of being the person who "would forget his head if it wasn't attached to his shoulders." I relate so much to Butterbur, "one thing drives out another". I'm going to have to start using the excuse.

[Androthelm]

Chapter 11: A Knife in the Dark

We begin back with one of my personal favorite characters, the (unfortunately named) Fatty Bolger. I've always found this little sequence interesting -- while the rest of the story is told, to some degree, from an omniscient perspective that tends to jump character to character, Fatty is detached from the rest by a long shot. Still, it turns out that Frodo's plan to Crickhollow may have bought them a little time (maybe? although the agents of the Riders are of course already present in Bree). Also, the Nazgul speak to each other in “a voice thin and menacing.", which is interesting. We hear their shrill screams repeated throughout the books, but it is interesting to think about what their voices sound like. I always imagined it with some more... gravitas, maybe?

It occurred to me in reading that... the Nazgul might not actually attack the Prancing Pony? Strider seems convinced that they won't, but rather that Ferny or some other agent might take some action. Still, just about every adaption I've ever seen has them attacking directly. So... is it Ferny who trashes the Hobbit-room?

Anyway, the loss of the pony hits our heros rather hard. It means they can't leave Bree quietly, and here we get another interesting quote...

"[From a passage describing the rumors and news which fly at the Hobbits' departure]...and not least the news that Strider the Ranger had joined the mysterious hobbits, made such a tale as would last for many uneventful years”

So, this caught my eye for the first time on a read through because it's hammered in so many times that the real danger isn't the simple gossips of Bree but rather the spies of the enemy who might hear those rumors. So... what's the danger here? What does it mean if the Nazgul discover that the Hobbits are accompanied by "Strider the Ranger"? Do they know who he is? Do they know who any of the Rangers are? I'm not sure -- if anyone is, please pass it on.

Anyway, some traveling ensues. Gandalf has by now escaped imprisonment and beats them to Weathertop, taking the road(? While Strider leads them on foot over the Midgewater Marsh?) and has his encounter with the Nazgul there. Frodo is stabbed, and we move on to...

CHAPTER 12: The Flight to the Ford

We get some interesting geographical information here, when Strider grows concerned that they need to pull back southward and find the road. He remarks:

“If we keep on as we are going we shall get up into the Ettendales far north of Rivendell. That is troll-country, and little known to me. We could perhaps find our way through and come round to Rivendell from the north; but that would take too long, for I do not know the way, and our food would not last.”

As far as I know there isn't much more about the Ettendales than this, but it stuck out to me because Strider is... Well, Strider. He's a famously accomplished traveler and yet--he doesn't know the country just to the north of the Valley where he grew up? How dangerous are the Ettendales?

Sam also gives an excellent showing this chapter with some more verse, although he's bashful that it's not "proper poetry." Tolkien's characterization of him--as a serving-hobbit, as it was--is marvelous.

Frodo continues to fail and the mad flight along the road begins. Soon enough, however, they meet another traveler--whose horse they hear before they see him.

“They were going fast, with a light clippety-clippety-clip. Then faintly, as if it was blown away from them by the breeze, they seemed to catch a dim ringing, as of small bells tinkling.”

This passage reminded me, interestingly, of the appearance of Father Christmas in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. How common were harnesses with bells, I wonder? And... how useful? It seems like stealth would have been more useful for Glorfindel here, although he is one of the few who dare to "ride openly against the nine" (I would LOVE to know who the others Elrond sent out were).

Gandalf is still missing, although we'll finally see him again next chapter. Nine days prior to Gildor's meeting the Hobbits and Aragorn, he was not yet arrived in Rivendell--which, side note, is interesting, because they don't seem to be nine days from Rivendell at this point. What has Glorfindel been doing? Why has he retreated back towards the east (he's east of the bridge where he left his beryl, after all) and then come back west (he is traveling west, causing him to meet the party). How does any of this work?
Also, Gandalf is becoming a serious case of missed connections. He is late to the Shire, late to Crickhollow, late too to Bree, but then early to Weathertop and then late (vs. Glorfindel) but still early (vs. Frodo & Co.) to Rivendell.

And finally, the Riders almost catch them at the ford. I was interested here in a bit of description we're given. When Frodo reaches the far side of the Bruinen...

“In any case he felt that he was commanded urgently to halt. Hatred again stirred in him, but he had no longer the strength to refuse."

I don't have a ton to say about this here, but I do think it is interesting to see that hate for the Enemy persists, even as he's giving in to their control. It makes me wonder about the other slaves of the dark power--do the Nazgul hate Sauron, even as they are bound to his bidding? Do the Orcs? The Easterlings? I'd love to see if there's more on this note later.

[Boromir88]

@Androthelm

It occurred to me in reading that... the Nazgul might not actually attack the Prancing Pony? Strider seems convinced that they won't, but rather that Ferny or some other agent might take some action. Still, just about every adaption I've ever seen has them attacking directly. So... is it Ferny who trashes the Hobbit-room?

I vaguely recall on the former plaza halfir starting a topic that it was Ferny and his men who tore up the room and not the Nazgul. I don't remember much more than remembering the topic, because like you, every adaptation has shown the Nazgul as the culprits. Which I actually don't hold against any of the adaptations because to translate book-to-screen it makes sense to make it the Nazgul. Thinking about it now on this reading I believe it was Ferny's men.

Like you mention, Aragorn doesn't believe the Nazgul would attack the inn, because that's not their way:

'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe the gatekeeper too...'

Earlier, before the hobbits arrived Butterbur said he closed the door on the black riders and bid them to be off and now that they have news Frodo's at the inn Butterbur seems pretty determined that they won't get in: 'But spooks or no spooks, they won't get in The Pony so easy.'

I don't see any reason for Butterbur to lie, he may have been a bit frightened that agents from Mordor have come to Bree, but he's already shut the door on them once.

I think perhaps the counter point is it was the Nazgul who around the same time, raided Crickhollow. Although, attacking Crickhollow at dark when the Nazgul didn't have any agents within the Shire to do their bidding is quite different than the situation in Bree. Where Aragorn says the inn is full of light and many people, it wouldn't be their way, when they could drive Ferny and others to do it.

[Androthelm]

@Boromir88

Very interesting. I think given that the Nazgul do not seem to have led the Attack on the Pony, we also might want to rethink the image of just what the goal was, in attacking. There's the classic shot--in the animated version, the live action movies, and even a cutscene from LoTRO--of the Nazgul standing over the beds and then plunging their blades into the sheets, but if Ferny and perhaps the Southerner are leading the attack here... Maybe they're just there to kidnap the Hobbits, not to kill them? I'm imagining now an alternate timelines where Aragorn, Barliman, Bob and Nob have to lead their OWN assault/rescue... On Bill Ferny's house.

I also almost wonder, though, if that counter point (the Nazgul raiding Crickhollow) doesn't support that they can't also be in Bree since... they're raiding Crickhollow. I know we don't see all nine yet, and I've never quite been able to keep track of just where they / Gandalf are when, since the timeline is best given in the Appendices, but if there are still only four pursuing Frodo directly, they all seem to be at Crickhollow.

[Mojo]

Okay, I am both caught up on reading and on this thread. A few leftover comments from previous conversations.

@Eamila Bolger mentioned (going back to the Shadow of the Past) the "two powers at work" quote. Without delving int too much detail, this was the source of one of my favorite Debates that I was involved with on the Old Plaza. Essentially - "Did Fate or Luck play a greater role in the War of the Ring?" As it was "fate"/"predestination" was essentially "the Will of Eru" or the echoes of the Music of the Ainur whereas "luck" was somewhat random happenstance. I think this quote was the basis for the argument on the "fate" side of the debate, that it wasn't random chance that Bilbo found the Ring but rather it was Eru's will that Sauron not recover it and therefore, in order for good to triumph over evil, Bilbo (and by extension Frodo) became the tools through which that triumph was accomplished in keeping the Ring from Sauron.

A final thought from the Bombadil chapter - even though Tom is isolated in his own land that he can't leave, it is fascinating how much he still knows about the outside world. He knows of Barliman and Farmer Maggot both, and speaks highly of them.

To @Lailorn's question about the "trouble away down South" and the Men coming up the Greenway, I always thought of them as Dunlendings or other people that were essentially agrarian/agricultural farmers who lived to the west of the Misty Mountains (therefore west of the Gap of Rohan and of Isengard). Looking at the map, these would be the regions of Dunland (between the Greenway and the Misty Mountains) and Enedwaith (between the Greenway and the Sea. I would guess that as Saruman's influence spread from around Isengard, some of the Dunlendings joined forces with him (I believe there was a passage later on about their old rivalries with Rohan and that they saw this as an opportunity to reclaim their lost land) while others who were more peaceful-minded and did not want to fight fled northwards. We don't hear a whole lot about Eriador between the Brandwywine River and the Misty Mountains other than the Fellowship's journey through a mostly-empty Eregion/Hollin, but there was a lot of land to the south of Sirannon and around the Greyflood where I imagine people did dwell.

Reading through the book and this thread with you all makes me really appreciate how great of a character Merry was and how much the movies botched his characterization (not blaming Dominic Monaghan here, he could only act out what was written for him). Another interesting difference is in the portrayal of the Ringwraiths themselves. While in the movie they are clearly sizeable villains, even in the book when the five attack at Weathertop they are more as "shadows passing by" to the Hobbits. I think some of that has to do with the visual medium of the screen that it is difficult to portray a spectre or phantom on-screen whereas it is much easier to describe them in the narrative of a book.

As @Androthelm mentioned, I love the little tangential story of Fatty Bolger proving that even though he was frightened by the forest, he still displayed great bravery in staying behind to face the unknown threat of the Ringwraiths. And to his credit, it was some of this deception that meant only five of the Nazgul were at Weathertop and not all Nine.

Also, to the question of meeting Glorfindel, I had always assumed that Glorfindel was patrolling the road, riding back and forth from (more or less) the Ford of Bruinen to west of the Bridge in order to keep it clear of Riders in the hopes of providing safe passage for Strider and the Hobbits.

I do think it is interesting to see that hate for the Enemy persists, even as he's giving in to their control. It makes me wonder about the other slaves of the dark power--do the Nazgul hate Sauron, even as they are bound to his bidding? Do the Orcs? The Easterlings? I'd love to see if there's more on this note later.

I believe this is correct. I think there was some quote later on (might be in TTT or ROTK) about how Orcs, even though they serve dark masters, hate them (and generally everything else) which is why the leaders treated them so brutally to keep them in line. We see multiple times (taking the Hobbits to Isengard, Cirith Ungol) that different factions of Orcs exist that often quarrel with each other. Even going back to Gandalf's discourse on Gollum and the Ring in Shadow of the Past I think we get some of this as well in noting that Gollum hated the Ring but also could not get rid of it because of the hold the Ring had on him.

[Mojo]

Ah, simul-post with both Boromir88 and Androthelm!

Adding to their thoughts...I think that Sauron's command would have been not to kill the Hobbits. In the PJ movies, the Ringwraiths seem to be trying to take the Ring from Frodo. However, even though they are bound to Sauron, I have to wonder if the Witchking or one of the other Nazgul acquired the Ring if he would willingly give it up to Sauron? Or would he try to challenge Sauron as a rival dark power? Without spoiling too much, we do get a little more detail in Many Meetings about the Morgul Blade which stabbed Frodo, which would not have slain him but rather turned him into a wraith-like spirit subservient to the Ringwraiths. Gandalf mentions that they would have taken Frodo to Mordor and Sauron would've tortured him and taken back the Ring. I think the interesting point here is that the Ringwraiths don't want to take the Ring from Frodo. They want to take Frodo back to Mordor so that Sauron can retrieve the ring himself.

As Gandalf noted back in Shadow of the Past, Bilbo giving up the Ring was a truly unique event in the Ring's history, and all of the other passages of the Ring to a new bearer came with great violence or luck/fate (depending on how you view the Ring deserting Gollum and Bilbo finding it). Therefore, I think it makes sense that Sauron does not wish for a rival to challenge his power, even not trusting the Ringwraiths with the One, but rather instructing them to bring the Hobbits to him so that he can reclaim the Ring from them.

I also almost wonder, though, if that counter point (the Nazgul raiding Crickhollow) doesn't support that they can't also be in Bree since... they're raiding Crickhollow. I know we don't see all nine yet, and I've never quite been able to keep track of just where they / Gandalf are when, since the timeline is best given in the Appendices, but if there are still only four pursuing Frodo directly, they all seem to be at Crickhollow.

My thought on this was that 4 of the Nazgul were in the Shire while the others patrolled the road, possibly using Weathertop as a "base" for their patrols. Strider notes that Black Riders have been seen passing through Bree, but we don't know how many are actually there at the time of Frodo's "accident" at the Pony. We do know that five attack at Weathertop, which potentially matches with the notion of 4 being in the Shire and 5 patrolling the Road.

[Androthelm]

@Mojo your instinct on the numbers of the Nazgul feels right to me. I would swear there's something in the Appendices about it--or maybe in Many Meetings? I'm not sure -- I'll check the Appendices when I get the chance.

[Mojo]

One thing I forgot in our Count of the Nazgul, just quickly looking through the timeline:

September 26 Two Nazgul come to Bree
September 29 Frodo's "accident" at the Prancing Pony, Gandalf visits the Gaffer
September 30 Crickhollow raided in very early morning by four Nazgul. Prancing Pony also raided overnight. Frodo leaves Bree that afternoon. Gandalf comes to Crickhollow and later Bree in the evening.

So here we see four Nazgul at Crickhollow attacking at the same time the attack at the Pony occurs. This makes it more likely to me that there were only 1 or 2 Nazgul actually in Bree at the time and that the attack on the Pony was carried out by Ferny, Harry, and others under their sway.

October 3 Gandalf is attacked at Weathertop while Strider and the Hobbits are in the Midgewater Marshes.
October 6 Frodo attacked by five Ringwraiths at Weathertop.

This matches with what Glorfindel mentioned, that "There are five behind us, and when they find your trail upon the Road they will ride after us like the wind. And they are not all. Where the other four may be, I do not know. I fear that we may find the Ford is already held against us.'" (Flight to the Ford"

It makes sense that these five were the ones who also attacked Frodo at Weathertop. The other four? We may be able to give some credit to Gandalf for that.

At the same moment the black horses leaped down the hill in pursuit, and from the Riders came a terrible cry, such as Frodo had heard filling the woods with horror in the Eastfarthing far away. It was answered; and to the dismay of Frodo and his friends out from the trees and rocks away on the left four other Riders came flying. Two rode towards Frodo: two galloped madly towards the Ford to cut off his escape. They seemed to him to run like the wind and to grow swiftly larger and darker, as their courses converged with his.

If Frodo is riding from west to east, and four riders appeared "out from the trees and rocks away on the left" this means they came from the North.

Skipping ahead, Gandalf gives us the answer during the Council of Elrond that Four Riders pursued him Northwards after he was attacked on Weathertop. This also accounts for those Riders coming at Frodo from the North (his left) when he reached the Ford.

Four Riders did indeed follow me, but they turned back after a while and made for the Ford, it seems. That helped a little, for there were only five, not nine, when your camp was attacked.

[Mojo]

Another thought I had for this discussion, since we will be starting a new thread next week to discuss Book II.

We should come up with a list of "pending/unanswered questions" (for instance the "What news called Gandalf away to the South so urgently?") that I can include in the Opening Post of the next thread so that we can keep them in mind moving forward. Feel free to tag me with any pending/unanswered questions and I'll start a list. I think a lot of them may get answered during the Council of Elrond, but that chapter is so dense that it would be good to have a few things to look out for when reading it.

[Boromir88]

I hope this isn't too much extraneous information for the context of the read along, but I pulled out and dusted off my copy of Karyn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth. There isn't any extra information that Fonstad had available, she uses the text and timeline in Appendix B. I just find it easier to use because with her maps there is one of Frodo's journey from Bag End to Rivendell with where they camped and on what days, also where Gandalf was with the dates from the Appendix B timeline...etc. It's easier than flipping between the text and the timeline in Appendix B.

Also looking in the Atlas reminded me of an important point that I often forget. The characters in the story don't know all the information that myself as the reader knows. So, when Sauron captured Gollum in 3017, yes he learns 'Shire' and Baggins' but he still doesn't know the precise location of the Shire. An important point in this timeline that I forgot.

So Gollum is let loose with the hope he would lead Sauron to the Shire's whereabouts. Oof, Aragorn captured Gollum soon after and is taken to Mirkwood. So, Plan A failed.

On June 20, 3018 Sauron launches Plan B. Osgiliath is attacked and this is his way of releasing the Nazgul out to find the Shire. On the same day, orcs attacked Thranduil's elves and Gollum escapes. So, I think this was the other part of Plan B, to spring Gollum loose again and the Ringwraiths can hopefully track him/lead them to the Shire. Plan B fails in August when Gollum shakes off pursuit by the Elves and Sauron's servants '...he took refuge in Moria; but when he had at last discovered the way to the West-gate he could not get out.'

Plan C. Gandalf is still imprisoned in Orthanc. Send the Nazgul to Isengard to get the information. The entry for September 18th: Gandalf escapes from Orthanc in the early hours. The Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen.
So either late on the 18th or early 19th the Nazgul find out from Saruman where the Shire is and that Gandalf escaped. The Rangers are holding Sarn Ford and on September 22nd the Nazgul drive them off. 4 of the Nazgul enter the Shire on September 23. The other 5 pursue the Rangers 'and then return to watch the Greenway.'

2 of those 5 reach Bree on September 26th. I think those other 3 patrolling the Greenway likely waylaid some travellers and got the one who joined Ferny in their service as well.

Then in A Knife in the Dark after initially laying the blame for everything that happened on Butterbur, most people rightfully (I think) blame Ferny and the southerner:

'If you pick up with a horse-thief,and bring him to my house,' said Butterbur angrily 'you ought to pay for all the damage yourselves and not come shouting at me. Go and ask Ferny where your handsome friend is!' But it appeared that he was nobody's friend, and nobody could recollect when he had joined their party.

The timeline and Atlas really helped answer one of my questions that I generally ask myself..If the Nazgul are stronger all together, why didn't they all just stick together in their hunt for 'Baggins' and 'the Shire'? Going through it reminded me that just because I know where the Shire is and what Frodo's plan is, doesn't mean that Sauron did, duh! So after a few attempts at trying to get Gollum to lead them, they get the Shire's location from Saruman.

I'm sure there are inconsistencies in this story, but I'm continually amazed at how all the details like this fit together and I find an answer to why the Nazgul split up from within the text instead of leaving it at "well that's just the way it is." Sauron's a character, he doesn't know everything I know, so obviously he can't react to the information I know. And even when the 4 entered the Shire all they knew was 'Baggins,' they had to find out he was moving to Buckland. Then we see the diversion of leaving Fatty in Crickhollow worked and they lost the 4 Ringwraiths by entering the Old Forest. What information then did the other 5 have, because they never entered the Shire? They watched the Greenway and 2 went to Bree.

Hmm..for some reason the tagging feature isn't working on my laptop at the moment...Anyway, Mojo I think that's an excellent idea to have 'unanswered questions' for beginning Book II discussion. It's not so much a question, but now I'm very curious by the Nazgul's visit to Saruman on September 18/19. I don't remember Gandalf's full account he gives to the Council and want to find out what information Saruman guessed about the Ring and Frodo (because I doubt Gandalf gave him much information). And possibly what information he withheld from them? I don't think it will be answered by Gandalf's account, but I'm very curious to attempt speculating.

[Mojo]

Great points here @Boromir88 ... without spoiling too much of the upcoming chapters, I'll just note that we do get some additional details on the Ringwraiths movements in next week's readings.

The one other thing I'll add is that The Shire was the name the Hobbits used for their own land, which likely contributed to Sauron not knowing where it was. He may have known the region by another name. Tolkien often tells us the different names that different races had for locations in middle earth, so this certainly could have played a role as well.

[Androthelm]

@Mojo thank you for laying out the numbers and dates so clearly! My question then, if anyone knows, is -- did Gandalf face all nine at Weathertop and escape? If so, PJ has a lot to answer for in that Witchking duel in the extended edition

@Boromir88 do we know for certain that the Nazgul stop to talk with Saruman? Might they not just be passing over the Gap in the same way Boromir did?
And, unrelated -- it is interesting that Sauron's plan with Gollum might actually have been about to work, since it was not until the west gate of Moria that Gollum stopped traveling -- perhaps he was making for the Shire after all? Though how he would know it (more than a general location westward, from legends in Dale?) is anyone's guess.

[Boromir88]

@Androthelm I don't remember if it's specified in Lord of the Rings (I suppose we'll find out soon) but in Unfinished Tales: The Hunt for the Ring (Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo) there is a full account of the Ringwraith's search.

After failing in their tracking of Gollum...

At length they returned; but the summer was now far waned, and the wrath and fear of Sauron was mounting. When they came back to the Wold September had come; and there they met messengers from Barad-dur conveying threats from their Master that filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay. For Sauron had now learned of the words of prophecy heard in Gondor, and the going forth of Boromir, of Saruman's deeds, and the capture of Gandalf. From these things he concluded indeed that neither Saruman nor any other of the Wise had possession yet of the Ring, but that Saruman at least knew where it might be hidden. Speed alone would now serve, and secrecy must be abandoned.

The Ringwraiths therefore were ordered to go straight to Isengard..

Some interesting things happening here, in September the Ringwraiths were ordered to abandon secrecy and pursue their hunt with speed. Also, the 'threats' from Sauron that 'filled even the Morgul-lord with dismay.' Which ties in with points about the Ringwraiths brought up on this thread. How they might hate Sauron/the Ring in a similar way Gollum hates the ring but can't abandon the need for it. Fascinating. This reread has pretty much completely altered how I traditionally viewed the Ringwraiths. Traditionally, I would have a good laugh that they were ineffective subordinates who typically fled at the sight of an elf or the utterance of Elbereth. They seem far more complex to me now, and I've had to re-imagine my ideas about them.

[Lirimaer]

I am FAR FAR behind on this, I shall attempt to catch up before the end of the week. Excuse me not reading all your posts before I read the book ... I prefer not to be spoiled in my thinking!

Ch 10 Strider

Ah, Merry's absence from the parlour - unremarked and unworried about. Strider following them back to it unnoticed!! They are not exactly aware of their surroundings, are they?

‘What will Ferny sell, and what has my accident got to do with him?’ said Frodo, still determined not to understand Strider’s hints.

Amusing and antagonistic, but it allows for exposition necessary for the reader. One thing that has surprised me, after his calm in the main room, is the passion with which Strider responds ... 'cried' is not a word used lightly as a synonym for said. I think it is this passion which marks him out as different from the image he presents and provides Frodo with his dilemma - to trust or not to trust. I like that it is still undecided as they are interrupted.

OOOOooooh - I had forgotten that Butterbur's message was a letter he forgot to send. HA - and for all his bumbling, it's Butterbur that remembers Merry!

The letter <3 ... details at once that Frodo is woefully behind schedule as we're probably in mid October by now. LOL great!

But I must admit,’ he added with a queer laugh, ‘that I hoped you would take to me for my own sake. A hunted man sometimes wearies of distrust and longs for friendship. But there, I believe my looks are against me.’

This, more than anything else ever, makes me love Strider. That strangled laugh, that desire to have friends, that fear that he may never inspire more than distrust because of his looks. MY HEART!!

Oh oh OHHHHH! Aragorn's display of power is Something to Behold. I am glad to behold it. Om nom nom, as we say in my country. Speaking of Strider though, Aragorn refers to him in the third person almost all the time - which no one at all comments on! But it strikes me as an interesting way for him to keep his sense of identity intact.

The blade that was broken! I had forgotten he carried it with him! I do love the verse too. Sam is strangely silent upon this reveal though, and I wonder why.

Merry's little adventure nearly ended in disaster. I do not recall the Black Breath at all ... and for that I am thankful, it sounds very terrible! Good for Nob!

[Androthelm]

@Lirimaer the sadness/longing for Strider to have friends is so beautiful. Even with the other Dunedain presumably running around Eriador, he really does have that Beren energy of being the last & loneliest of his people.

[Mojo]

One item I forgot to add before, the Atlas of Middle-Earth is a great companion to keep along when reading, because I know I can get lost in the appendices of both LOTR and the Silmarillion when I go to look up something simple and then find myself in...well...whatever the Tolkien equivalent of a Wikipedia wormhole is.

Another resource I have found helpful is the LOTR Project which has a map tracing the journeys of the major characters (you can toggle via the "paths" menu on the right side). There is also a secondary page with the "Timeline" linked at the top that is useful as well.

[Lirimaer]

Ch 11 - A knife in the dark

From the moment we left Fatty behind in Crickhollow, it was niggling at me that surely we hadn't left him behind as a patsy to DIE?! I am so pleased this poor brave little hobbit ran and ran and ran away! And I enjoy the thought of the black riders fleeing from all the horns and alarums, even if all the thought of their black hearts was doom on the Shire.

Oh noes, the ponies are gone! I was imagining a nice fast pace ... yeah, okay. I had forgotten the whole practical necessity of a pony for carrying things, and that they had to get one from Bill Ferny of all folk. Butterbur assuming the cost is quite nice of him though - and will probably save him from a roasting by Gandalf. (I now can't remember where Bill the Pony comes from in the movie either.)

It just seems so awful - to have wanted a nice quiet early start and now to be late, with the entire village watching your every move and talking about you/your companions ... it must have laid their spirits low.

They tramped off, anxious and downhearted, under the eyes of the crowd. Not all the faces were friendly, nor all the words that were shouted

Nice to be right

But as they drew near to the further gate, Frodo saw a dark ill-kept house behind a thick hedge: the last house in the village. In one of the windows he caught a glimpse of a sallow face with sly, slanting eyes; but it vanished at once.
‘So that’s where that southerner is hiding!’ he thought. ‘He looks more than half like a goblin.’

Ah, the elusive Southerner ... the horse thief ... is a resident of the Black Land. I wonder what he looked like, to get away with appearing in the pub.

‘Morning, my little friends!’ he said to the others. ‘I suppose you know who you’ve taken up with? That’s Stick-at-naught Strider, that is! Though I’ve heard other names not so pretty. Watch out tonight!

Ferny is being a bagginsy little baggins here, but I wonder where 'Stick-at-naught' comes from. The reader is of course defensive of their new companion, but such names do not appear out of nowhere. It could simply be that because Ferny is (and Breelanders in general are) in the dark about the Rangers, and Strider in particular, that they see the wandering as a kind of feckless, disregard for honest stable work and living. The 'not so pretty' names seem unlikely to be anything but rude perjoratives.

'Watch out tonight' could be a taunt or a threat, though it's couched innocently enough as a warning.

‘Bill Ferny will have watched where we left the Road, for certain,’ he said; ‘though I don’t think he will follow us himself. He knows the land round here well enough, but he knows he is not a match for me in a wood.

I like that this gives the impression that Bill Ferny has pitted himself against Aragorn - maybe tried following him before - and that it ended up in a humiliating defeat. I think I would like to see people's interpretations of that encounter - perhaps as one of the prompts in the roleplaying vignettes in CoLP.

Their camping-place was damp, cold, and uncomfortable; and the biting insects would not let them sleep. There were also abominable creatures haunting the reeds and tussocks that from the sound of them were evil relatives of the cricket. There were thousands of them, and they squeaked all round, neek-breek, breek-neek, unceasingly all the night, until the hobbits were nearly frantic.

This would have broken me. I would rather walk all night than stop in such a place. By the morning I would be cold, tired and driven beyond endurance to such a foul mood that I would not be worth knowing. To spend another night in such conditions - even minus the sound - I would be begging for death. Can you tell I don't like camping?

I am beginning to worry that Strider, who spent the night awake in Bree, hasn't slept since then, and we're four nights into the post-Bree journey. Hopefully he had a bit on those first three nights, eh? Because he's certainly not asleep as we watch the lightning emanating from Weathertop.

The warning about animals and birds being able to see them from Weathertop gives us some reason for the path Strider taking them seeing so few animals or birds. He has clearly lived a lonely life, and his knowledge of the potential darkness around them is becoming communicated for the first time to the hobbits, who have lived in blissful ignorance in their little protectorate. To look at nature with newly fearful eyes would make anyone uncomfortable, Sam.

That night they set a watch, and Strider, it seemed, did not sleep at all.

Well, someone else is concerned about his lack of sleep too. I don't think I've have noticed this as a younger person. Time's long gone by when I could stay up all night, going to work the next day and be up late again ... I am just too old for that nonsense now.

Pippin declared that Frodo was looking twice the hobbit that he had been.
‘Very odd,’ said Frodo, tightening his belt, ‘considering that there is actually a good deal less of me. I hope the thinning process will not go on indefinitely, or I shall become a wraith.’
‘Do not speak of such things!’ said Strider quickly, and with surprising earnestness.

Such things we say in jest, or through blind ignorance of the truth. Fascinating.

Oh, we're only on the fifth of October so far ... I think I'd one day like to read this part of the story from day to day - sleeping where the nights fall, as it were, and get a sense of the timeframe more perfectly.

Sam singing about Gil-galad makes me smile! Merry not knowing who he was makes me smile too.

‘It is part of the lay that is called The Fall of Gil-galad, which is in an ancient tongue. Bilbo must have translated it. I never knew that.’
‘There was a lot more,’ said Sam, ‘all about Mordor. I didn’t learn that part, it gave me the shivers. I never thought I should be going that way myself!’
‘Going to Mordor!’ cried Pippin. ‘I hope it won’t come to that!’

Casual stuff, showing that Aragorn knows some of the ancient tongues,and that he knows Bilbo or of Bilbo at least. And it shows that Sam knows where he's going. Those Elves of Gildor have prepared him well.

I know how long it would take me on my own feet, with fair weather and no ill fortune: twelve days from here to the Ford of Bruinen, where the Road crosses the Loudwater that runs out of Rivendell. We have at least a fortnight’s journey before us, for I do not think we shall be able to use the Road.

That's a horrifying length of time when being pursued. I am readying myself for terrifying shenanigans.

‘There is still hope,’ he said. ‘You are not alone. Let us take this wood that is set ready for the fire as a sign. There is little shelter or defence here, but fire shall serve for both. Sauron can put fire to his evil uses, as he can all things, but these Riders do not love it, and fear those who wield it. Fire is our friend in the wilderness.’
‘Maybe,’ muttered Sam. ‘It is also as good a way of saying ‘‘here we are’’ as I can think of, bar shouting.’

I thought the hobbits' cooking food = a foolish mistake, was canon. It'd be one of the first things I did, and I am glad to find Strider instigated it.

As night fell and the light of the fire began to shine out brightly he began to tell them tales to keep their minds from fear. He knew many histories and legends of long ago, of Elves and Men and the good and evil deeds of the Elder Days.

Ah distraction, it is a wonderful tool. How kind he is. The history of that tale of Luthien down through to his own history, though they do not appreciate that yet.

Terror overcame Pippin and Merry, and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo’s side.

Sam, Sam ... you noble creature. The film does him a disservice.

Desperate, he drew his own sword, and it seemed to him that it flickered red, as if it was a firebrand.

Yes! Their barrow swords. I had forgotten he actually managed to strike the enemy's feet. I assume from the cry it let out that the blow hit its mark.

But oh dear. It seems even on this re-read Frodo gets stabbed by the blade of wraithmaking.

But Glorfindel next!! I am DELIGHT!

[Lail]

@Eamila Bolger - oh interesting thought! I hadn't thought they could be from Gondor! I don't know why I always assumed they were Dunlendings, seeing as Dunland is sort of directly south of the Shire. And maybe I assumed that because of the squint-eyed southerner in Bree. It may be the case that we never find/will never have a firm answer, in which case, that's totally fine and we can all make up our own head-canon to explain it.

The two forces is an interesting point, Ea and @Mojo! I imagine we could have a very lengthy discussion on this topic. Its certainly implied that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, but I don't think that means every single outcome or event was pre-determined. I have to say I think it takes a bit of both fate and luck for the quest to succeed in the end in the way that it does.

We shall agree to disagree - I still maintain that its weird to carry around a broken sword. Presumably a Ranger tries to travel light and carry only what they absolutely need. Including the shards of an old sword...? I'm not buying it, Tolkien!

I may say that I am probably guilty of paying extra attention to Merry, as one of my favorite characters, in this reading. When younger, I related to him a lot, so I'm interested to see if that's still the case or not. I always find re-readings interesting in what they can tell about how you've changed (or not) as a person over time.

I like the idea of forwarding a list of unanswered questions, Mojo! I have questions - questions that need answering! You've already got my question about Gandalf - I'm not sure we'll find out but I'd still like to know why Aragorn didn't seem to know what it was, either.

There are interesting points here I skimmed over as I am not quite up to date on Chapters 11/12 so I want to refrain from reading comments so they don't colour my own experience. So I'll leave it here for now.

[Lirimaer]

Ch 12 Flight to the ford

‘Alas!’ he cried. ‘It was this accursed knife that gave the wound. Few now have the skill in healing to match such evil weapons. But I will do what I can.’
He sat down on the ground, and taking the dagger-hilt laid it on his knees, and he sang over it a slow song in a strange tongue.

Nice to see the power of song in use, even if we don't exactly know what he was doing because we do not have the words to this song ... a strange omission, I feel, in this book of song with a story attachment.

The elf-stone on the bridge is a nice touch (you are not alone) but days are disappearing now ... four days lost to Frodo's pain, another three lost in the rain. The journey is too long, and the utter despondency I felt when Strider announced we were too far north must echo our wee hobbits' glum weariness.

Nice daylight interlude with Tom, Bert and the other one, but I'm not enamoured of Sam's poetry. Maybe I need someone to tell me the tune, but it was hard work reading that and frankly, if Sam was my jester, I'd put him in the stocks. Why Merry laughs is ... very far beyond me.

GLORFINDEL! I wonder who the others were, who went north and south ...

I love everything about Glorfindel. The bells on his harness - hello CS Lewis, being out for nine days looking for them, leaving jewels on bridges, glowing, local anaesthetic in his touch, provider of potent energy drinks, tireless sergeant major forcing the troops to march onward ... clearly this guy could not be part of the Fellowship - where would the conflict be? But he is an excellent rescuer.

There at the bottom of a sharp incline they saw before them a long flat mile, and beyond that the Ford of Rivendell.

Hmm ... not Six Days To Rivendell for this ride, PJ - it's a mile!

Frodo has oft narked me at this point with his not moving/stopping. And I think I tend to blame him for it more than the pressure being brought to bear on him ... I need to be kinder to him, he was under a lot of pressure right then!

But thank heavens for obedient horses! Fredegaring RUN, Asfaloth!!

The Riders behind were falling back: even their great steeds were no match in speed for the white elf-horse of Glorfindel.

What, they weren't reaching out for Frodo, almost touching him? Weren't right on his tail and then behind chasing him and then back on his tail again? Oh that film sequence has always pissed me off, but wtf was wrong with this epic chase that it needed changing?

This amazing exchange between Frodo and the Riders - hit as he is with a dose of Black Breath, already seeing them in their wraith form without even wearing the Ring, that he defies them verbally is just astonishing, but then

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.

This is such a shocking display of power - we don't see anything like this in the movies, plural. The slow burn of fear these beings have engendered over the past 9 chapters comes to a head now - they can control Frodo with a gesture, they can break his sword without touching it, they can affect him physiologically. Fredegar that!

it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world. The black horses were filled with madness, and leaping forward in terror they bore their riders into the rushing flood.

Such a MORE EFFECTIVE reason for nine riders to suddenly become mountless. They just seem to wait around for the flood in the film and it's sooo disappointing after this sequence, where we can see that they're forced into the water by the warrior of light and his flame-brandishing minions.

And so we're safe ... safely to Rivendell, and the reader can breathe again. All will be well in the House of Elrond and we can not panic for a chapter ... (and people wonder why we like roleplaying Elves!)

[Balfur]

You guys talking about being behind on the commenting... Ha! Last time I was here I said something about Jools.
But fear not! I have returned and I have been reading along. Really love the slow pace, even though I sort of slightly want to read ahead...

Two short (I hope) points I noticed reading book 1 of FotR this time:
1) I don't know whether it is because of me minoring in Celtic Studies in college or just because I have been reading all sorts of mythology and sagas, but Middle Earth is so much more magical than I remember it. Maybe my memory was warped by people talking about Tolkien using a 'soft' magic system instead of a 'hard' one (e.g. the types you get with Dungeons & Dragons and other role-playing games, and newer fantasy books). I think this stance is way too, for lack of a better work: systematical. I.e. there is a hard focus on the system of magic, instead of it's narrative function. Tolkien's magic is not systematical, rather it seems to be innate in the story and the world in which the story is set. It needs not explanation. A Morgul-blade is a cursed weapon, Tom Bombadil is Master and therefore silly things like the Ring have no influence over him. The elves sing to Elbereth and starlight streams down upon them. Aragorn sings a song of identification (if you want to quantify it) on the Morgul-blade. These things just happen and need no explanation. In this story we are not studying the 'laws of magic,' because that's not what it is for. The system holds no importance.
I like it that way, mainly because it makes me think back to a time in my life when I was less dependent on systems myself. When stories could still be stories and above all magical and incredible. It is a story, it needs no realism.
(My brother came up with a critique that I have heard before and I wholeheartedly disagree with: "LotR is not a good story because it has no sex/sexuality in it." He called it the most important part of human life that had been left out. I was astonished for a moment, because it was too obvious that it was not necessarily his own opinion, but one copied from 'the internet'.) End of tangent

2) I think some of you have mentioned it above, but there is a second power at work. Gandalf states it outright at the start and throughout this first book there are these weird 'chance' encounters. Frodo leaves the evening when the Riders are on his doorstep. He even overhears the conversation one has with Gaffer. The 'lucky' encounter with the elves, just when one of the Riders is very close to finding mr. Baggins on the Stock Road. Tom Bombadil showing up right when he is needed. He himself says that, if they had come around any later, he would not have walked those paths.
Bree has less of a chance encounter, but later: the firewood in the dell near Weathertop, finding the beryl on the Bridge (for that matter: the Bridge being unguarded). And so on.
All these little moments that, if you mind it, become strangely familiar. Echoes of Gandalf's words that Frodo was meant to inherit the Ring.
I think there is some sort of connection with the concept of 'grace' (the Christian kind, not elegance), but I think I am too tired to formulate it more clearly now. From the start, this quests dances on the edge of a knife and it would not have succeeded through the actions of the players alone: there is another force at work. Which I find an encouraging thought, to be honest.

I don't know if any of this makes sense... maybe I am slightly too tired, but I felt the need to post something before moving to the next book.

[Mojo]

Glorfindel >>>> Arwen

Also, @Lirimaer I am highly enjoying your "stream of consciousness" posts here in the thread. It certainly helps me remember some small details that I thought about when reading but didn't remember when I was posting!

I don't think we ever learn who the other Elves are that went North and South after the Nazgul, but I would guess that Eladan and Elrohir were among them.

Something else I was thinking about was how the "primary adversary" changes with each Book. Here in Book I, the Nazgul were the primary adversary, and they are (more or less) defeated in the concluding paragraphs. What a finish! The Nazgul don't really appear again for nearly 2 whole Books (end of Book III, if I recall correctly), so then the primary adversary shifts to a new one in Book II (not going to spoil it yet). This might be a trend worth keeping an eye on moving forward.

Also, as this is a conclusion of a "Book," Tolkien once again gives us a masterful cliffhanger of an ending.

The black horses were filled with madness, and leaping forward in terror they bore their riders into the rushing flood. Their piercing cries were drowned in the roaring of the river as it carried them away. Then Frodo felt himself falling, and the roaring and confusion seemed to rise and engulf him together with his enemies. He heard and saw no more.

Can you imagine if LOTR was actually 6 books and FOTR was not "two books in one" and this was the last sentence you read and had to wait another year or so for the next book to be released? Is Frodo dead? Did he actually get captured? Did he fall into the river? So many questions! But fortunately for us, we don't have to wait for another book to be released, but can just turn forward a few pages to see if Frodo is okay and find out what happens next.

I've been reading ahead a little bit (because next week's readings are a LOT of pages) and I will say that we do get some answers to at least 2 of our questions during the Council of Elrond:
- What drew Gandalf away from the Shire?
- Timeline of the Nazgul's locations

[Mojo]

To @Balfur's points (which are good ones) - the point about sex generally comes from the GRRM/Game of Thrones crowd, after how graphic and at time gratuitous those books are. I have two main thoughts on this (in an attempt to keep the discussion high-level and also within the "PG-13" guidance of the site):

First, I think the notion that "sex is the most important part of human life" is a more modernist/post-modernist philosophy (or at least post-1960s). LOTR was published in the early 1950s and much of the work on the story was done by Tolkien between the late 30s and early 50s. Additionally, Tolkien was a devout Catholic, and while he was oft quoted as saying his story was not a direct allegory, the overarching "universal truths" that he believed are prevalent in his works. This could probably be an entire Lore topic unto its own (and provide some fascinating and insightful discussion). So as not to completely derail the book discussion, I will note that there are a few passages in Letters where Tolkien relates his views on sex and I would suggest looking at those for some more insight.

Secondly, Tolkien is masterful at "referencing rather than showing." For instance, as we move forward in the story there are references to what happened to Elrond's wife, though they are not directly depicted as a scene within the story. Throughout the legendarium there are instances of love triangles (especially in the Silmarillion with Beren/Luthien/Daeron and Tuor/Idril/Maeglin) and let us not forget the tragic tale of Turin. From a philosophical standpoint, Tolkien certainly focuses more on philia (the love of friends) and agape (self-less self-sacrificing love) more than eros (romantic love), but that does not mean that notions of love and fellowship are not present in the story. I think Tolkien is trying to strike a balance between the four types of love (eros, philia, agape, and storge (love of family)) rather than solely focusing on the eros as other modern/postmodern fantasy authors have done.

On the topic of grace, I think you're onto something here, and it certainly comes into play later in the story. Without getting too far ahead of ourselves in the narrative, Tolkien has some great writings in Letters on Frodo and whether or not Frodo ultimately "failed" in his quest. I would recommend looking at Letter #181 and Letter #246 at some point, though they may be best considered after we have finished with the entire read-through and have reached the end of the primary narrative, as they discuss in more detail some of the events that we won't get to in this read-through for a few more months.

[Androthelm]

I also think, to leap with far far less knowledge into @Balfur and @Mojo's discussion about sex/sexuality in LoTR, that there's a recent sort of criticism of things like the MCU as being sexless which is, to some degree, more valid. There is a certain kind of clean, all-ages American Blockbuster that ends up sort of showing off the ... different standards which American media especially (influenced by the Puritans yada yada yada, I'm sure nobody wants to hear my Religion Major theses redux) handles sex/sexuality when contrasted with, say, violence -- or even, recently, foul language. Captain America can have "America's ass", sure, and an early draft of Avengers: Endgame can see Thanos lift up Cap's grisly alternate timeline severed head, but HEAVEN FORBID there be a layer to their romantic lives more distinctive than the kind of pining he does for Peggy (which is sweet, but also safe and only occasionally relevant).

I'd actually argue that LoTR, then, does deal with sex and sexuality -- it's just that the sex and sexuality of, say, Aragorn pining for Arwen fits better into the world which Tolkien has created, which is very much a world of Great War-era Boys Having Adventures. Maybe the real word we should be using is "passion"--Aragorn is passionate for Arwen within the world they live. Steve Rogers is not for Peggy, because in part of the other standards of vulgarity in language/violence.

This is also, for instance (and to pull even further away from LoTR) is why I find it so funny when Tony Stark gets called a "playboy billionaire". Playboy?? With who??? The man has been in a committed relationship for the last ten years!

[Boromir88]

@Balfur I think there is some sort of connection with the concept of 'grace' (the Christian kind, not elegance), but I think I am too tired to formulate it more clearly now. From the start, this quests dances on the edge of a knife and it would not have succeeded through the actions of the players alone: there is another force at work. Which I find an encouraging thought, to be honest.here

First welcome back to your comments here. I don't know how many times it's mentioned in The Hobbit, but Bilbo's 'luck' is frequently brought up. Going back to The Shadow of the Past , Gandalf mentions Bilbo beginning ownership of the Ring with an act of pity to spare Gollum's life may 'rule the fate of many.'

I don't want to get too far ahead of myself, but as Mojo mentions a few of Tolkien's letters talking about Frodo's 'luck' as well and another power at work. If I recall, I believe Tolkien referred to it as 'Providence' and sort of similar to the viewpoint that someone 'makes their own luck.' It's why many of the 'noble and mighty' characters fall do to ofermod; or what Tolkien defined as 'excessive pride.'

@Mojo one question to add to the list starting Book II that I'm curious about now...is Providence/chance/luck at play in The Council of Elrond and the formation of the Fellowship? Often questions are asked why for example Glorfindel wasn't in the Fellowship? I have a suspicion that the Council may have been one of these 'chance meetings' and what role does it play in the formation of the Fellowship?

A Knife in the Dark

A lot of things standing out in this chapter have been mentioned and I don't want to rehash what's already been said, when my conclusions would end up being the same. Those conclusions are "love it and especially Sam's surprise to reciting part of The Fall of Gil-galad"

What I do want mention is again this transformation in how I used to view the Ringwraiths to now. The PJ adaptation really muddled up my opinion of them, as he portrays them as more a military force and tries to buff them up as skilled swordsmen. There is a 'terror' element to them, I believe it's Fran Walsh who does the scream and that is still precisely how I hear it in my head when the scream is described in the books. So, they are frightening but I don't think PJ goes far enough. Instead he tries to make them into skilled warriors and they are not. Which messed up my own vision that the Ringwraiths aren't really that big of a threat, because they tended to flee from armed confrontation. When in fact, during this reread they are terrifying and they are very much a threat.

I will probably start a different thread on this, but one of the points the author brought up is relevant here. A military historian did an analysis on the Siege of Gondor in the films and compared it to the books. He brought up a very good point that Tolkien understood and is prevalent throughout the books. Movies tend to portray battles as one side's army is victorious over another because they successfully wiped out/killed the entire opposing army. He said it's the same in a lot of fantasy novels as well. But he points that something Tolkien very clearly understood and incorporated, because of his experiences in World War I was the 'morale battleground.' It's something we really don't see in movies, but also not a whole lot of fantasy authors focus on, but Tolkien did.

Yes history is full of many pitched battles and sieges, and this military historian's (Brett Devereaux) argument is most are determined by one side simply breaking the will of the other. Demoralizing the opposing army to where their will to fight is gone and they simply flee/surrender. His analysis on the Siege of Gondor and Helm's Deep is excellent, but that's for a separate topic. I want to use his arguments and apply them to the Ringwraiths, because demoralizing their opponent is their primary weapon. It's what makes them terrifying and it's what makes them effective:

Terror overcame Pippin and Merry and they threw themselves flat on the ground. Sam shrank to Frodo's side. Frodo was hardly less terrified than his companions; he was quaking as if he was bitter cold, but his terror was swallowed up in a sudden temptation to put on the Ring...

Again the movies make a mess of this sequence, as Merry, Pippin and Sam all have the courage to stand up or strike at the Ringwraiths, Frodo drops his sword and falls to the ground. Now the scene as described in the books, reminds me more of Frodo acting like a cornered animal, so I'm not sure if that's "courage'' or "desperation." But that fact that his will to fight wasn't completely broken speaks towards the strength of his character. I don't think it portrays the other hobbits in an embarrassing way either. It in fact, shows the entire point Tolkien was making with the Ringwraith's, the Enemy's effective and terrifying force to demoralize their opponent and break their will to fight.

Edit: simul with Androthelm.

[Lail]

Chapter 11
I love how this chapters starts out! I had forgotten all about this and this right here is one of the reasons I love the Brandybucks so much. They are some seriously brave hobbits to stand up to the Black Riders and Fatty Bolger gets a very special mention for his role, too. To me, this was a little preview of what we'll see much later at the end of RotK.

This chapter is pretty tense as it goes from the invaders in Buckland to the attack on the Prancing Pony. After reading through your comments, I agree it must have been Bill Ferny & co. to blame.

Again, when the hobbits are faced with another challenge, they rise to meet it. This time, its the lack of ponies to take on their departure from Bree. Pippin agrees to carry "as much as we must" on his back and Sam claims he can "carry enough for two." (Didn't he also offer to carry Frodo's bags back in Three Is Company?) Go hobbits! Its lucky they manage to get Bill the Pony.

I loved this passage and it made me laugh out loud. I feel like Sam has a lot of these snappy lines. Is this an early glimpse of Sam's bravery and loyalty or is it more a lack of fear through lack of awareness of danger?

'And you, Ferny,' he said, 'put your ugly face out of sight, or it will get hurt.' With a sudden flick, quick as lightning, an apple left his hand and hit Bill square on the nose. He ducked too late, and curses came from behind the hedge. 'Waste of a good apple,' said Sam regretfully, and strode on.

Again, we get more little tidbits of connection between mysterious events here. Before, it was Strider the dark figure leaping over the gate. Now, we get Gandalf's fight with the Nazgul at Weathertop as the mysterious flashes in the distance. I just have such an appreciation for this clever interweaving of events that are later revealed to the reader.

I just love the moment when Sam recites the poem about Gil-galad and surprises all his friends as well as when he recites the troll poem of his own making later. Its clear that Sam is a good listener and more observant than many seem to think on the surface.

This is where Pippin's obsession with the sniffing is validated! Merry astutely asks Strider if the Riders can see after he makes them crouch down out of sight on Weathertop. Strider explains that "They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes and shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys [...] at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it."
So - from Pippin to Frodo -

Though the hobbits were prepared to carry their gear, they aren't that brave yet as the quail before the Black Riders at the end of the chapter.

Chapter 12
This chapter sees them hounded by the Riders much of the way until they meet Glorfindel. The wilderness and forests they travel through again seem hostile, not dissimilar to the Old Forest, but this time they have Strider with them.

Frodo dreams of "endless dark wings [were] sweeping above him, and that on the wings rode pursuers that sought him in all the hollows of the hills." Awfully reminiscent (or prescient, I guess) of the Riders on Fell Beasts...

We get a little bit of much-needed humour again when Strider smacks his stick on the stone trolls. I really liked this little moment with a homage to Bilbo's journey.

After Glorfindel arrives, I wondered the same, @Lirimaer - who were the other riders sent out from Rivendell? I can't remember if we ever find out whether within LotR or otherwise. I am enjoying your stream of consciousness, too, I think we share a lot of similar thoughts!

@Balfur - Your point about hard vs. soft magic is interesting to me. I would call Tolkien neither. I've read and really enjoyed some books with hard magic systems (Sanderson comes to mind), but I really enjoy this more mythical magic of Middle-earth. It seems to be a fluent part of the world that just requires no explanation almost like the air we breathe. There's a naturalness about it.

I love your observations about the books having different adversaries, @Mojo - my brain is already fast-forwarding and considering the next books now.

I like these ideas about chance vs. fate and what events are shaped by what. I think its going to be in the back of my mind in further reading as well.

[Androthelm]

@Lailorn Thank you for your thoughts! I would like to point out that while the Hobbits do quail before the Black Riders, Sam does "shrink to Frodo's side", which is fairly brave (and absolutely a reflection of his character in times to come). Had Frodo not put on the ring, I wonder if it might be our poor Sam Gamgee who leapt forward in their defense.

[Boromir88]

Flight to the Ford

I remembered they found the site of Bilbo's trolls and how it seemed to lift Frodo's spirits, but I forgot how funny it was! As soon as I read Pippin coming back in terror and Aragorn:

'We will come and look at them,' said Strider, picking up a stick. Frodo said nothing, but Sam looked scared.

I thought about one of the greatest dad jokes in cinema history and that was Dr. Grant in Jurassic Park with the electric fence. I laughed because I couldn't remember what it was but knew Aragorn was going to play a little prank on Pippin and the rest:

'You are forgetting not only your family history, but all you even knew about trolls,' said Strider. 'It is broad daylight with a bright sun, and yet you come back trying to scare me with a tale of live trolls waiting for us in this glade! In any case you might have noticed that one of them has an old bird's nest behind his ear. That would be a most unusual ornament for a live troll!'

I love the whole build-up and sequence, because I think this is the second time it's been remarked that Pippin went ahead trying to look brave in front of Aragorn. I enjoyed the development in this chapter between Aragorn and the hobbits. The land is quite bleak, sad hearing Aragorn's stories about why this part of Eriador is empty and lonely now, but a great light hearted feeling when the reach the trolls.

'Where did you learn such tales, if all the land is empty and forgetful?' asked Pippin. 'The birds and beasts do not tell tales of that sort.'

Ahh, you can always count on Pippin to ask a 'how do you know?' or 'why' question. It's interesting seeing in this chapter Aragorn's patience, because I have a feeling when I get to Pippin asking Gandalf all kinds of questions, Gandalf is less patient. However, I don't know if that's just the movie muddling up my memory again or not.

Sam's got a few more surprises for everyone in this chapter and I love it. If Pippin's a psychic, maybe Frodo is too!

Sam muttered something inaudible. 'It's out of his own head, of course,' said Frodo 'I am learning a lot about Sam Gamgee on this journey. First he was a conspirator, now he's a jester. He'll end up by becoming a wizard - or a warrior!'

I like how it's Frodo who says this, as their relationship is starting to change.

[Lail]

@Androthelm - yes you're right! I totally overlooked that even though I did notice it while reading. This is another preview of Sam's bravery. Or if not bravery, his determination to see his task through to the end. And you can't blame Pipping and Merry - I'd probably quail, too, if I even made it that far. I'm scared of everything!

[Lirimaer]

@Lailorn Regarding Strider carrying around the broken blade of Narsil, I think we've been conditioned by the film to expect Aragorn to draw his sword at the slightest provocation. Yet in the book, we have seen the Ranger, not the soldier - the calm thinker, the canny planner, the secretive forestcrafter, who knows ways to stay hidden and off the beaten track whilst shepherding four hobbits and a pony across the land. When fighting off the Nazgul, he uses only firebrands and so far, the only time he's drawn it is to reveal that the later lines of the poem Frodo has for identification refer to him.

I suspect (I do not know) that this is only something that he's taken up carrying in these later years, since Gandalf has kept him apprised of the climactic events soon to come to a head. Unlike movie!Aragorn, real!Aragorn doesn't shrink from the fulfilment of the prophecy, but states it as fact that the time is coming when the sword will be reforged.

So in my eyes it's not a weird thing for him to carry it round with him - it's not a sword, it's a weight of responsibility.

[KingODuckingham]

Yes history is full of many pitched battles and sieges, and this military historian's (Brett Devereaux) argument is most are determined by one side simply breaking the will of the other. Demoralizing the opposing army to where their will to fight is gone and they simply flee/surrender. His analysis on the Siege of Gondor and Helm's Deep is excellent, but that's for a separate topic. I want to use his arguments and apply them to the Ringwraiths, because demoralizing their opponent is their primary weapon. It's what makes them terrifying and it's what makes them effective:

This is off-topic (since I don't really have time to add much of value to the actual topic), but it proves I am still reading along:

When the movies were still new my best friend bought a beginner set of some tabletop LotR game in the Warhammer style, with little miniatures of some orcs, Ringwraiths, Gondorian soldiers, and Gandalf. There was also an absolutely massive rulebook that we did not have the attention span to read at age 13 or 14 or whatever we were. It was unfortunate, though, because like you're saying Boromir, the Mordorians (whom I played as) had fear as a weapon IN THE RULES but since we just played with pure stats, Gondor always won because pound for pound Mordor was outmatched. Gahh I'm still bitter. And I also agree with your point re: how that plays out in FotR.

Okay, sorry, continue with the actual topic all, sorry for the brief rant.

[Lail]

@Lirimaer - that is an incredibly good point especially re: bearing the weight of responsibility. I can see the symbolic point of it, but I still maintain its useless in the Wild! I don't remember when he has it reforged in the books, though, so maybe this issue will be solved for me soon and he'll actually have a useful weapon with him.

[Lirimaer]

If memory serves, it's forged before the Fellowship leaves - but I think we've established that my memory is for Shire!

[Mojo]

Hey all, tomorrow we start discussing Book II and with that a new thread. We can leave this one open in case anyone who is a few chapters behind wants to chime in with thoughts on Book I.

@Boromir88 I'd be fascinated to read that military analysis. I recall a Debate once on the plaza where we were arguing some topic on military tactics (I think it might've been whether Sauron or Morgoth was a better military leader). I recall using Sun Tzu's Art of War to argue in favor of Sauron's military abilities. I'll have to see if I can dig that Debate out of the WayBack Machine, it was a good one from what I recall.

Outstanding Questions From Book I
- What drew Gandalf away from the Shire with such haste?
- Timeline of the Nazgul's travels?
- Why does Aragorn carry around the Shards of Narsil?
- What role does Providence/Grace continue to play throughout the story? (Especially in the formation of the Fellowship)
- Is fate or luck driving events of the Fellowship?
- Are there different primary "adversaries" in each Book?

I think those are most of the outstanding "carry-over" questions, but if anyone has more they can think of, feel free to add them and I'll update the list when I start the new thread tomorrow.

Also, feel free to keep posting here! This has been a great discussion so far (thanks everyone who has participated!) and we certainly welcome any late-comers to the party who want to get rolling and catch up with where we are.

[Lail]

2. The Shadow of the Past
I have been reading back at what you all said to see if anyone else noticed this. Doesn’t seem to be so. There was something that surprised me.
Gandalf says in The Shadow of the Past that there are two powers at work, not just one. But then he doesn’t tell what that other power can be, apart from the dark power from Sauron. He just says that Bilbo might have been predestined to find the ring, but not by it’s maker. Who then was it, who predestined it? We never hear about another, ‘good’ power directing things in Middle Earth. Still Gandalf mentions it here. ‘There is more than one power at work here, Frodo.’ And he calls it encouraging.
Any thoughts about that anyone?

@Mojo - can we get Ea's question added to the list for Book I please? (Feel free to carry over to the other thread, I just didn't want to fill that one up with this request). I think it could prove an interesting thing to carry over to the subsequent books.

[Mojo]

Got it, thanks for tagging me! I added it to the list of questions in the Book II OP and I think this conversation somewhat goes hand-in-hand with the Fate/Luck conversation as well, but there is a slight difference in this re: the power of good (Providence/Grace) vs the power of evil

[Lail]

Agreed! Thanks.

[Amadhrill]

So, I know I am way late, but I have really enjoyed reading up on your comments while working my way through book I. Also, very happy to see that I am not the only one who has a muddled memory of what is in the book and what is in the movie.

I am especially intrigued by the thought of Bill Ferney &co being the ones that attack the prancing pony. I think it also makes sense and is alluded to with the comment Aragorn (?) Has about Bill Ferney selling his pony to them as an after thought to what happened at the Inn and all the missing horses/ponies. It makes sense that he and his "friends" cleared out the stables and then he figured he could make some extra cash by selling the pony to Frodo&co.

I also really enjoy how Bill the pony is growing fatter and glossier and the comment that he must have really been ill treated to have the crossing of the wilderness seem like a better place.

As many of you have already commented on, I am interested to see how my favorite parts from 10-15 years ago are still favorites. So long the book is so much easier and faster to read then I remember, but I also feel (having gotten used to Kindle's very handy dictionary), that I am missing some nuances in the language because I am not a native speaker and aren't bothered getting a dictionary out. I am tempted to find my Norwegian translation, that I never read in full, to see if that gives me a new perspective so to speak (after reading Harry Potter in Norwegian for my son I do see that there are some things that I miss for lack of understanding).

After reading book I, the main point I am left with is a wonder at how I am still totally in love with this book nearly 20 years after getting introduced to the Middle Earth and how the book can keep me so on edge, give me something new even if I have read it several times. I am already starting to look forward to rereading it again and again!

Thank you for having shared your thoughts with me, even if I am way behind the rest of you!

[Eamila Bolger]

@Amadhrill I actually read it in Dutch this time, and then afterwards in English when I need to quote things :-D

[Androthelm]

@Amadhrill I like your thoughts! A nice thing about doing a book club on a forum is that yes, people can come along later and stick things in. I do think that Bill the Pony getting fatter and glossier in the wild is, in some ways, thematically similar to the poem about Aragorn -- and a reminder that the wilds, while dangerous, are not necessarily more evil than "civilization."