LOTR Read-Along, TTT - Book III

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Chrysophylax Dives Interesting thought about the Necromancer and Gríma. Good to keep an eye on him in the next chapters. I was however wondering: @Lailyn mentioned how Gandalf asks King Théoden to have mercy on Gríma. Would he have done that if this wasn't just a man under the influence of a wizard? Wouldn't Gandalf have known if it was more than that, and given a different advice in that case?

I'm not sure I understand. I'm not saying that Gríma is a wizard; rather that a necromancer can be a monster (e.g. a fallen wizard) or a mortal. Also that i think Tolkien sees a magic in words. So you can have Gríma = a necromancer, whose words work evil magic - but no more so than the son of the miller might do outside your very own doorstep (if that makes sense?).

But your real question seems to concern Gandalf. Is not his way always to allow others freedom if he can? He will later ask Saruman to choose, and his heart feels Gollum 'has a part to play.' In this case, however, once the spell of Wormtongue over Théoden is broken surely Gandalf also knows that the poison is drawn and this snake can only do limited further damage - and indeed, what Wormtongue ends up doing is giving Gandalf and Aragorn a Palantír, the Orthanc Stone (through which Aragorn prompts Sauron to unleash the assault on Minas Tirith prematurely; an action of less significance than Gollum biting off the finger of Frodo and so dooming Sauron, but still of the greatest importance in the War of the Ring).

[Boromir88]

I like your thoughts about Saruman and Grima @Chrysophylax Dives. I hadn't thought about "the Worm" connection to dragons and then Smaug and Bilbo.

Hmm, you may have inspired me to create another thread to explore it further. In the FOTR discussion some brought up about Tolkien's tall characters, and the "noble/mighty heroes." Elrond at the council says something about often the simple and small hands often have to do the hardest tasks as the eyes of the noble and mighty are elsewhere. You get that dichotomy between the mighty and the simple in Tolkien's good characters, but I think it exists in his evil characters as well. Saruman, a member of the Istari, a Maiar sent as a messenger of the Valar, also described as tall. Then Grima a rather mean and pathetic subordinate.

[Boromir88]

Flotsam and Jetsam

I'd like to begin by just saying I love the title of this chapter. The Little Mermaid might be a small influence, but like "Fog on the Barrow-downs," "Flotsam and Jetsam" are words I don't hear in everyday conversation.

This is a chapter with a lot of dialogue, it's interesting I didn't sense really any tension at all. It's just a chapter of the Fellowship members together again and frankly having a chat after their victories. Saruman has to be dealt with still and there are hints that the battle will turn to the East, but it feels so relaxed. Something Pippin says fits the tone of the chapter, they are enjoying some "well deserved comforts."

The rest is just going to be random quotes that I thought revealed something interesting or funny about some of the characters...

Gimli about the "luck" the hobbits had: 'The cutting of the bands on your wrists, that was smart work!' said Gimli. 'Luck served you there; but you seized your chance with both hands, one might say.'

This was interesting because going with one of the themes about what role does "Luck" play in the story. The hobbits were lucky, but Gimli makes a good point that by their actions they seized on the opportunity!

Aragorn talking about the Southerner in Bree and 'evil folk': 'It seems plain now that that Southerner was a spy of Saruman's; but whether he was working with the Black Riders, or for Saruman alone, I do not know. It is difficult with these evil folk to know when they are in league, annd when they are cheating one another.'

Merry musing about Treebeard's somewhat dark humor when Wormtongue arrives: 'Yes, I don't suppose Treebeard sent him to Orthanc out of kindness' said Merry. 'He seemed rather grimly delighted with the business, and was laughing to himself when he went to get his bathe and drink...'

My imagination of Treebeard has completely changed. I'm so glad I am reading these books again after such a long time not doing so.

[Lail]

:) I like this kind of train of thought (i think it appeals to my inner hobbit). maybe you could answer 'yes' although only by way (of course) of the author. i have a memory that Tolkien writes to Christopher around the time he composes this passage that he did initially have Merry tell a history of pipeweed but decided it had to be confined to the index, which i guess is the first step to becoming a book of the early 4th age in the library of Brandywine Hall (together with the book by Meriadoc and Shire and Rohan names, which includes mathom, which also steps out of an appendix. (i must say that for perhaps the first time in my life, in penning this post i feel vaguely embarassed at my Tolkien geekiness, which is intensified by my felt need to emphasize that it is written from memory that may be a bit off.)

Do not be embarrassed at all! I appreciate people sharing this kind of info so thank you. Now that I think about it more, it seems like Merry often gets knowledge-sharing moments. Back in FotR, he tells the other hobbits a lot of stories and lore about the Old Forest and such and a few chapters ago he helps give Pippin on the lay of the land when it comes down to the two of them in Fangorn. It all seems very in line with his scholarly pursuits later in life.

@Boromir88 thanks for editing, hope people find their way to us.

Re: Gandalf and Narya and Erkenbrand's men - is this related to where you mentioned in the FotR thread that Gandalf use Narya to "rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."? We'll never know but perhaps the ring did have something to do with it. It is an interesting thought to contemplate.

I am partway through chapter 9 but I can say I am really enjoying getting things filled in from Merry and Pippin and seeing the full might of the Ents when roused. Hoping to catch up this weekend.

@Eamila Bolger - here we have another example of mercy for your enemy at play here with Erkenbrand and the Dunlendings. Thanks for pointing that out. Wonder if Gandalf had any kind of influence there? Gandalf was gone for a while and now we can't stop talking about him because he seems to be everywhere now!

[Boromir88]

I finished Book III yesterday evening and was typing out comments on the last 2 chapters yesterday. Then I was planning on opening Book IV thread up today to begin this week. However, I found myself wanting to write so much from Chapters 10&11, since I don't think anyone is in a rush I think it's a good time to break again. So, how about we continue with the end of Book III chapters this week and over the weekend I'll open up the Book IV thread and we can plan start planning for that?

[Androthelm]

Hello everyone! So sorry to have dropped out of the read-through in the middle of what is probably my favorite book of the series. I've been following along, though -- excited to catch up!
As a small note in lieu of any real thoughts on Book III, I would like to point out that as we move into Book IV we are also moving substantially backwards in time (as well as considerably eastwards in space. Unlike the first volume, where the books followed directly after one another (and the focus, although there were certainly sections of others thoughts, was almost all on Frodo) Book III has seen the Fellowship split and, although a number of them were back together, that split is still ongoing. This is maybe of less interest from a narrative / true "Lore" perspective and more interesting as an issue of craft, but I'd love to raise the question: How does Tolkien handle the jumps backwards and forward in time and across huge regions of space? We've seen this a few times already (such as when the Three Hunters were tracking the Uruk-Hai and giving their best guesses / versus our chapters from the perspectives of Merry and Pippin where we saw those clues being laid) but it is about, I think, to get much, much more complicated.

[Androthelm]

Oh! And one further note @Chrysophylax Dives about worms, dragons, and mortal spell-making -- especially since you brought up "On Fairy-Stories." I happened to reread "On Fairy-Stories" yesterday, and did notice that putting (to paraphrase the quote -- my copy is in the other room) "warm fire in the belly of a cold world" is one of Tolkien's explicit examples of the magic craft of storytelling. Now, Grima doesn't breath fire, but I do think that's further evidence that this multi-role of the snake (advisor, seducer, dragon & worm) is certainly floating around in Tolkien's own personal bowl of "the soup."

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Androthelm don't get me started on 'On Fairy-stories'! This essay is in my opinion the key to Middle-earth. But nobody understands it! This is hardly the fault of the reader, though; it is the oddest, strangest essay I have ever read. But I'm glad you flagged it here because it is worth noting how it fits in with the composition of the story we have been reading.

From the relevant Home volumes we can see that by the end of 1938 Tolkien had brought his hobbits to Rivendell, but the story as then conceived is much more the sequel to 'The Hobbit' than LOTR as we know it. He then put his story aside to read up on fairy stories (and in the recent book on Tolkien's library we see him borrowing from the library various such collections) and delivered a lecture on fairy stories at the university of St Andrews in Scotland in March 1939. After this (and in the wake of the commencement of WWII) he transforms his story - with Trotter the hobbit becoming Aragorn the heir of Elendil and the Second Age story of the elves of Eregion and the Rings of Power newly invented, and takes the Company through Moria, Lorien, and then on to Rohan, Fangorn and Isengard. By the end of 1942 composition of LOTR had got to the point we have just about reached. Tolkien then paused for some months and, the summer of 1943, worked up his St Andrews lecture notes into the essay 'On Fairy-stories.'

'On Fairy-stories' therefore provides the 'theoretical blueprint' for the story from Moria to Isengard. Alternatively, the story from Moria to Isengard is the unstated context of the essay 'On Fairy-stories.'

[Androthelm]

That timeline is fascinating @Chrysophylax Dives. Particularly the (with no offense intended to our dear, cut Mr. Trotter) "upscaling" in terms of nobility / regality that the insertion of Aragorn and his ancestry brings. Tolkien spends so much time in that essay grumbling about the relegation of faerie to jokes and flower-petals, and how proper fairy-stories can be every bit as noble as anything else!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Androthelm. Indeed. Given you just read this essay, may I point you in particular to the queer turn with regard to magic in the section 'Fantasy' - while Tolkien has talked of 'magic' to this point he all of a sudden tells us that magic is what evil magicians (read: necromancers) do while elves do 'enchantment.' I suggest comparing this passage with the Lady Galadriel telling Sam that she does not understand what he means by 'real elvish magic' and showing to him what elvish enchantment may be. I believe that writing this part of the story provided Tolkien with the grounds for his distinction between magic and enchantment in his essay (the distinction is absent in the 1939 lecture notes).

EDIT: sorry everyone for going off topic. Androthelm, if you wish to discuss the essay further (which I would - of course - be happy to do) I suggest we start a separate thread.

[Androthelm]

@Chrysophylax Dives wi-fi has been going in and out but I'll make a new thread momentarily.

Back on topic, can't wait to begin the next book with everybody -- I'm really glad to be back.

[Eamila Bolger]

Wow, interesting discussion here!
Sorry for my delay. I hope to end book III by the end of the week, for I have been reading some interesting things but have to reread in English in order to find the right quotes to share here. I especially love these last chapters because of things like the talk between Legolas and Gimli: there is so much depth in their relation that the movie didn't show. Will be back!

[Androthelm]

@Eamila Bolger I agree -- Gimli and Legolas's dynamic, from their tension to their friendship, is better built in the books than in the movies -- I always forget that the counting game was a Tolkien original, and not a PJ add-in.

[Boromir88]

Voice of Saruman

I want to save some comments for @Androthelm's thread Magic/Magicians, because the power of Saruman's voice is rather tricky to work out. Tolkien describes it as if it's not magical/does not 'hypnotize' the listener. It corrupts a person's reasoning abilities, so it sounds more like he's a persuasive/skilled speaker, his voice is not 'magical.' Yet, it's the very thing Gandalf warns everyone about:

'What's the danger?' asked Pippin. 'Will he shoot at us, and pour fire out of the windows; or can he put a spell on us from a distance?'

'The last is most likely, if you can ride to his door with a light heart,' said Gandalf. 'But there is no knowing what he can do, or may choose to try. A wild beast cornered is not safe to approach. And Saruman has powers you do not guess. Beware of his voice!'

Then the chapter goes on to describe all the effects Saruman's voice is having on everyone, to corrupt their 'reasoning abilities.' The voice makes them think Gandalf will speak with Saruman privately and: 'He will betray us; he will go - we shall be lost.'

But since Saruman has lost his fair mask, he is unable to keep up the guise like he used to, as Gandalf puts it...he can not be both a 'counselor and a tyrant.'. I think it's Theoden who says that Saruman's voice has lost its charm, but I think that's a bad way of describing it (sorry, still love you, Theoden). We see the effects and charm he has in this chapter and I love how it shows just how Saruman was able to fool everyone in his treachery. But I don't think Saruman's voice has lost any effect, we see it having an effect on everyone. There are flashes of anger and bitterness lashing out in his voice ('Gibbets and crows!' is one of my favorite lines ), so it's not that his Voice has lost any effect, but the mask is ripped off and he can't keep up the charade anymore. Everyone knows he's a traitor and we still see his Voice at work, but Gandalf puts it the best he can not both be a counselor and a tyrant.

I'm also wondering if the 'voice' is in some ways a part of the position as head of the Istari Order? The movies show with Gandalf's imprisonment there was a wizard duel that Saruman won, but from the books it appears Saruman just summoned Gandalf to come to Isengard, and then come inside. In that way Gandalf was tricked and imprisoned. There was no wizard duel, essentially Gandalf was force to obey. As Saruman is forced to obey when Gandalf calls him:

'Saruman, Saruman!' he cried in a loud commanding voice. 'Saruman, come forth!'

'Come back, Saruman!' said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard.

Two times Gandalf summons Saruman in a 'commanding voice' and two times Saruman comes. The second time is really interesting in describing it was as if Saruman attempted to fight it 'dragged against his will' and lost, because he come back worn out from the fight... leaning on the rail 'breathing hard.' So, I wonder if something similar took place when Gandalf was imprisoned?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

'Saruman, Saruman!' he cried in a loud commanding voice. 'Saruman, come forth!'

'Come back, Saruman!' said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard.

Two times Gandalf summons Saruman in a 'commanding voice' and two times Saruman comes. The second time is really interesting in describing it was as if Saruman attempted to fight it 'dragged against his will' and lost, because he come back worn out from the fight... leaning on the rail 'breathing hard.' So, I wonder if something similar took place when Gandalf was imprisoned?

I cannot answer your question, @Boromir88, but I want to point out here that we have seen this power of the voice before.

'Whoa! Whoa! steady there!' cried the old man, holding up one hand, and they stopped short, as if they had been struck stiff. (FR, 'The Old Forest')

Tom Bombadil's songs are stronger, and in fact all who hear his commands instantly obey them - Old Man Willow, the barrow-wight, the hobbits, and even their ponies. (Consider also Tom's asking Frodo to see the Ring, which Frodo immediately hands over to him.) Bombadil is so ridiculous - in appearance and his nonsense rhymes - that it seems usually to be overlooked that his voice has a power that Sauron without his Ring can only dream of.

I think Saruman and Wormtongue are further investigations of this power of the voice, albeit investigations conducted in light of Tolkien's working on his essay 'On Fairy-stories' and in the wake of his reimagination of Bombadil's enchantment in visual elvish terms in Lorien. There is a curious movement in the narrative of the story from Bombadil's power of the voice through to Galadriel, who sees what is in your mind and shows you elements of your own story in her Mirror, and then back to voice - albeit now in evil and lesser form - in Rohan and Isengard.

[Androthelm]

@Boromir88 I agree broadly with your breakdown of Saruman's voice -- although I do wonder if Theoden's comment that the voice has lost it's charm is basically the same as the mask having been ripped away? It hasn't lost it's charm (spell) but it has lost its charm (pleasant face).

I also like @Chrysophylax Dives's remarks on the shift from voice to vision to voice again. We are soon to get plenty of talk of vision -- vision of Sauron, vision of the Black Riders. It is, after all, in this sequence that the Seeing-Stone is first introduced.

[Eamila Bolger]

Interesting look on thing here!

Since I am falling behind, I'll post chapters 8 first here and hope to read 9 later this night.

The road to Isengard

• If you read that first part, 'Many meetings' would have been a good title for this chapter as well! With the Rohirrim from inside Helm's Deep and the ones that had been separated from them and the ones with Gandalf and Erkenbrand meeting each other on the field.
  The whole scene is full of joy at first, and even the weather joins. The dark night and the storm have passed, the fields are green, everything is light and bright.

• The fairytales keep coming back. Apparently the Rohirrim were a lot more used to stories from the olden days than I remember from the men from Gondor. We will find out later I guess if that is true. But first its Éomer who says this, later it's the King himself who repeats it a few times (when Fangorn is mentioned and the Ents and later on when they meet Merry and Pippin). How funny that Treebeard - the oldest alive - doesn't know hobbits when the Rohirrim do!

• Look for me in Edoras ere the waining of the moon.

  I had to laugh at Théoden respons here. 'No way are you sneaking out on me again Gandalf!'

• Then I stumbled upon something that really had me wondered. Since I read in Dutch, I was surprised to read the word 'tongue-watcher'. This is the sentence in English: My old age is not feigned nor ill due only to the whisperings of Wormtongue. It is an ill that no leech can wholly cure, not even Gandalf.
  So 'leech' is translated 'tongue-watcher' in my language. What could have been meant here? I mean: if I look up 'leech', I see that it's a bloodsucker, or a worm. That would fit Wormtongue. But if I read it well, it' used to describe Gandalf? Could somebody help me out to understand this?

• I am glad to read that Erkenbrand sees how the men from Dunland were poisoned by Saruman as well. He doesn't judge them, he gives them a second chance. Wonderful lesson to learn from. I love the Rohirrim more and more.

• Had a laugh over Gimli who didn't want to see eyes in trees. I guess there's a lot of children who have exactly that feeling when they dream of monsters under their bed ;-)

I

• was touched by Gimli's love for the caves and how he gives us a whole new look at the Dwarves way of loving rocks. How the Dwarves would not ruin these beautiful caves, but guard and cultivate them. Nice!

• Last but not least: I was also touched by how King Théoden, after living in Rohan all those years and minding his own business and keeping the rest of the world far away, realizes how much beauty there is in Middle Earth. And that it's likely that he will only get a very small taste of it. It feels like he knows his end is near... I love him more and more too, just like Pippin realizes: a fine old fellow!

[Nessa Saelind]

• Then I stumbled upon something that really had me wondered. Since I read in Dutch, I was surprised to read the word 'tongue-watcher'. This is the sentence in English: My old age is not feigned nor ill due only to the whisperings of Wormtongue. It is an ill that no leech can wholly cure, not even Gandalf.
  So 'leech' is translated 'tongue-watcher' in my language. What could have been meant here? I mean: if I look up 'leech', I see that it's a bloodsucker, or a worm. That would fit Wormtongue. But if I read it well, it' used to describe Gandalf? Could somebody help me out to understand this?

Jumping in because this rang a bell :-) I'm reading up on the history of medicine for some Houses of Healing RP research, and I was reading about leeches. Apparently (according to Wikipedia) lǣce was the name for both the physician and the animal in Old English. And the word lǣcecraft, or leechcraft describes the art of healing. So maybe it's a reference to a doctor or healer.

[Eamila Bolger]

That's a good one, @Nessa Saelind! Thank you! Now that you mention it: in the Middle Ages the doctors uses bloodletting as well of course, and sometimes even leeches. I had not thought of that, it really makes sense! And 'tongue-wachter' makes sense too then: like when a doctor says 'Say aaahhh.... so that I can see in your throat'. Mystery solved!

[Nessa Saelind]

Happy I could help @Eamila Bolger :-) Now I'm really intreagued to find out how the translator of the new Croatian edition of The Two Towers translated that sentence. I'll need to check if the library has the new translated edition. The first Croatian translation of Lord of the Rings wasn't the best, mainly because the translator disliked Tolkien and did a poor job on it.

BTW is anyone else beside Eamilia reading LotR in translation, or are you sticking to the original? I'd be interested to hear if there are some unusual translation choices in your native languages.

[Eamila Bolger]

I read in Dutch but then re-read in English if I have the time. The parts that give me questions I always re-read in English. I must say that I have read the Lord of the Rings in English mostly before, but bought a Dutch copy for our kids. However, I realize now that I read it in my native language, that there are depths that I hadn't 'felt' truly before, because I missed the point in English. So I can recommend it!

[Boromir88]

That's great @Eamila Bolger and @Nessa Saelind! I love hearing about different translations! If I remember correctly from TTT movie, Theoden says to Grima "Your leechcraft would have had me crawling on all fours like a beast." For quite a while I thought he said "witchcraft" until one day I heard it differently.

The Palantir

So I've come to the end of Book III and Pippin's curiosity gets him into trouble. To a lesser extent than the Ring, I was interested to find out the palantir seem to have a pull, or attraction, to people who come in contact with it. Yes it's Pippin who gets the itch to look into the palantir but it sounds like it could have happened to anyone if they came into contact with it.

Pippin is strangely obsessed with it:

'Well, if Gandalf has changed at all, then he's closer than ever that's all,' Pippin argued. 'That - glass ball now. He seemed mighty pleased with it. He knows or guesses something about it. But does he tell us what? No, not a word. Yet I picked it up, and I saved it from rolling into a pool. Here, I'll take that, my lad - that's all. I wonder what it is? It felt so bery heavy.' Pippn's voice fell very low; as if he was talking to himself.

But Gandalf doesn't lay all the blame on Pippin and seems to think by merely holding it it could attract anyone:

"The hobbit, Peregrin, above all should not know where it is bestowed. The evil fit may come on him again. For alas! he has handled it and looked in it, as should never have happened. He ought never to have touched it in Isengard, and there I should have been quicker."

"Maybe, I have been saved by this hobbit from a grave blunder. I had considered whether or not to probe this Stone myself to find its uses. Had I done so, I should have been revealed to him myself. I am not ready for such a trial, if indeed I shall ever be so."

I love how the chapter ends with Pippin getting his wish, he did not want to sleep and he wanted to ride with Gandalf, and there he goes, getting exactly that. Plus his cheekiness when Gandalf gets exhausted from all his questions:

'The names of all the stars, and all living things, and the whole history of Middle-earth and Over-heaven and of the Sundering Seas,' laughed Pippin. 'Of course! What less?..'

[Lail]

I found your idea, @Boromir88 , about the power of the voice going with the Istari Order very interesting! It does seem like there is some power in Gandalf’s command. I’m so glad you brought up Tom B, @Chrysophylax Dives , because I did not make the connection in these passages like you, but I did think forward to Saruman while reading about Tom B in FotR and the power in his voice and song. I almost feel like we could have a whole separate topic to discuss Saruman and his voice/power/persuasion.

Well I finally caught up...

9. Flotsam and Jetsam
For me, the highlight of this chapter was our real reunion time for some of the Fellowship. To talk and eat and sort of relax and catch up. This was so enjoyable to read - I especially loved the moment when Pippin lends his spare pipe to Gimli.

The other highlight here was the power and might of the Ents! Slow to rouse but scary when they are…all I have to say to that is - go Ents!

And last - Pippin says this of Ents and Saruman - “And anyway he did not understand them; and he made the great mistake of leaving them out of his calculations.”
But the very same could be said of Sauron and hobbits.

10. The Voice of Saruman
“For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them.”
More talk about Saruman and his voice! Given this excerpt, I wonder if Grima was not such a terrible person until he fell under Saruman’s ”spell.” Is it possible Grima is someone who was “conquered and the spell endured”? What do you think? I am not sure what is known (if anything) about Grima prior to his “service” to Saruman through Theoden.

Again, we see Gandalf offer mercy. He gives Saruman a second chance, offers freedom and even tells him he “has the power to protect” Saruman. However, Gandalf admits that he was not acting for entirely “merciful reasons”. “Great service he could have rendered” if Saruman had chosen to side with them. Seems like he thought it was worth a shot in the dark to convince Saruman to help them but unfortunately Saruman declined.

This chapter features one of my favourite quotes! A real go with the flow attitude - “Well, well, things will go as they will; and there is no need to hurry to meet them.” (Treebeard)

11. The Palantir
Though it seems like a terrible mistake for Pippin to have touched and then used the palantir, Gandalf says it is actually rather fortunate in the end - now he knows for sure it is a palantir and did not have to reveal himself in order to find out. Later in the chapter, Gandalf admits that he is “not ready for such a trial.” All in all, I have to say, Pippin kind of did a good thing by accident even though it seemed like a bad idea.

We have another reference to luck when Gandalf tells Pippin after the palantir incident - “You have been saved, and all your friends too, mainly by good fortune, as it is called. You cannot count on it a second time.” Seems luck was on Pippin’s side again here with Sauron’s lack of interrogation via seeing stone. Is his luck going to run out?

Our temporarily reunited Fellowship is broken again at the end of the chapter as Pippin rides off with Gandalf and Shadowfax to Minas Tirith! And now we must wait until the RotK to find out what happens to them next…!

[Boromir88]

@Lailyn interesting thoughts about Grima possibly being under Saruman's power/enchanted by his voice.

The most in-depth Grima thread I've ever come across was here on the Old Plaza and fortunately KingODuckingham found it for the archive thread...

http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/forum_po ... 24983&PN=2 (what's great is all 4 pages load too!)

From Grima's early life to his death gets examined as someone asked if the hobbits killing Grima was just or unjust?

Not much is known about Grima's life prior to his introduction in The King of the Golden Hall. In that OP thread I came to the conclusion that Theoden's condition was primarily (if not completely) caused by Grima and not Saruman. Grima was a 'worm,' 'the snake' metaphor as being a crooked counselor is carried throughout the chapter. However, again Gandalf advises to show pity, because he was not always a snake:

'See, Theoden, here is a snake! With safety you cannot take it with you, nor can you leave it behind. To slay it would be just. But it was not always as it now is. Once it was a man, and did you service in its fashion. Give him a horse and let him go at once, wherever he chooses. By his choice you shall judge him' (The Two Tower: The King of the Golden Hall)

So, Grima was once a man and was trusted. "Once was a man, and did you service in its fashion." Grima gave better counsel, since he was once a man. But now Grima is a snake, and his "leechcraft ere long would have had me walking on all fours like a beast." (Theoden, King of the Golden Hall)

To me, one of the more damaging marks against Grima's character is Saruman chose to target him. I think it's highly plausible that Saruman's voice conquered Grima "and the spell endured". But I think there still had to be some character flaw in Grima prior to that because Saruman specifically targeted him. Unfinished Tales points out that Saruman despised Theodred and Eomer because they were closer to Theoden and in Saruman's plans to take over Rohan, they were loyal to their King. Eomer gets angry with Aragorn's suggestion that Eomer serves someone else beside Theoden:

'I serve only the Lord of the Mark, Theoden King son of Thengel,' answered Eomer. 'We do not serve the Power of the Black Land far away, but neither are we yet at open war with him,...but we desire only to be free, and to live as we have lived, keeping our own, and serving no foreign lord, good or evil.' (The Two Towers: The Riders of Rohan)

[Eamila Bolger]

Continuing reading...

Flotsam and Jetsam
Like @Lailyn this meeting of friends was a highlight to me too. I was suprised though that they want to know about the hunt without asking about Frodo and Sam first... could Gandalf have told them already? From what I read, he didn't.
Thumbs up for Pippin for having an extra pipe indeed!
I love how Tolkien takes time for friendship. For writing about this friendship I could imagine that this was what kept men alive in war too... and he knew all about that. 'Just as precious as rings'. Dear Pippin :-D

Again a 'mystery' is resolved: the shadows that Legolas first saw and the darkness that moved passed them at night were the Huorns. A shadow indeed.

To my great delight:
Did anyone here know the true meaning of Flotsam and Jetsam? I did not (in Dutch the title simply is 'wreck wood' but I looked it up and was fascinated! Perhaps it was clear to you all the time, but to me it was an eye-opener. Debris that has accidentally fallen in the water and debris that has deliberately been thrown into the water. Wonderful! The title seems to point right ahead at the palantir. Flotsam may be claimed by the original owner, whereas jetsam may be claimed as property of whoever discovers it.
See this link: https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/flotsam-jetsam.html

The voice of Saruman
So much has been said already...
Just two things to add here.
I was a bit surprised at the fact that Treebeard doesn't know hobbits. Or did I say so before? Even Rohirrim know them from 'fairytales'. But Treebeard - who is older than anything in Middle Earth - didn't know of their existence. He is going to add them to his rhyme ;-)

And second: Saruman speaks of the 'crowns of seven kings'? What seven kings did he mean there? The Nazgul were with nine.

@Boromir88 when it comes to Gríma I wonder if it really was a flaw in this man, or merely the fact that he was close to Théoden that Saruman picked him. He may have started out as a very loyal servant, who was indeed closer to the King than Éomer since the King didn't ride out for battles anymore. Perhaps he wanted what was best at first, which was why he was a good victim for Saruman. He only needed to speak of what was really best for Théoden and change Gríma's vision. Bit by bit he may first have changed that vision, and then added hatred for anyone who thought the other way.
Or he may indeed have had a flaw already (don't we all...) but I do wonder what it might be. He doesn't seem to want power, or seek riches like the Master of Laketown did. I'll most certainly look into those pages in the archive!

One more chapter to go, hope to be able to read that tomorrow.

[Boromir88]

@Eamila Bolger good point about Saruman's corruption of Grima. I don't think it would have happened immediately it could have been as you suggest, more gradually. I don't think there is a specific date of when Saruman turns traitor but his plans towards Rohan started during Thengel's reign. In TA 2953, the timeline in Appendix B: Saruman withdraws to Isengard, which he takes as his own, and fortifies it.

And the entry for Thengel, in Appendix A: It was soon after Thengel's return that Saruman declared himself of Lord of Isengard and began to give trouble to Rohan, encroaching on its borders and supporting its enemies. (Appendix A: The House of Eorl)

So when Saruman turns traitor it appears to happen around 60-65 years before Gandalf finding out when he is imprisoned. It looks like his hostility towards Rohan began prior to Grima's birth. Saruman's a rather patient person!

To what was Grima promised? Gandalf has guesses, but that doesn't mean he's right: 'Down on your belly! How long is it since Saruman bought you? What was the promised price? When all the men were dead, you were to pick your share of the treasure, and take the woman you desire? Too long have you watched her under your eyelids and haunted her steps.' (The Two Towers: The King of the Golden Hall)

Eomer jumps in to confirm that he's known for a while Grima's desired Eowyn. However, it could also be a protective brother wanting to rough up anyone he thinks is taking an interest in his sister.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Flotsam and Jetsam
To my great delight:
Did anyone here know the true meaning of Flotsam and Jetsam? I did not (in Dutch the title simply is 'wreck wood' but I looked it up and was fascinated! Perhaps it was clear to you all the time, but to me it was an eye-opener. Debris that has accidentally fallen in the water and debris that has deliberately been thrown into the water. Wonderful! The title seems to point right ahead at the palantir. Flotsam may be claimed by the original owner, whereas jetsam may be claimed as property of whoever discovers it.
See this link: https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/flotsam-jetsam.html

The voice of Saruman
I was a bit surprised at the fact that Treebeard doesn't know hobbits. Or did I say so before? Even Rohirrim know them from 'fairytales'. But Treebeard - who is older than anything in Middle Earth - didn't know of their existence. He is going to add them to his rhyme ;-)

@Boromir88 when it comes to Gríma I wonder if it really was a flaw in this man, or merely the fact that he was close to Théoden that Saruman picked him. He may have started out as a very loyal servant, who was indeed closer to the King than Éomer since the King didn't ride out for battles anymore. Perhaps he wanted what was best at first, which was why he was a good victim for Saruman. He only needed to speak of what was really best for Théoden and change Gríma's vision. Bit by bit he may first have changed that vision, and then added hatred for anyone who thought the other way.
Or he may indeed have had a flaw already (don't we all...) but I do wonder what it might be. He doesn't seem to want power, or seek riches like the Master of Laketown did. I'll most certainly look into those pages in the archive!

Thank you on the 'Flotsam and Jetsam,' @Eamila Bolger. I remember being fascinated by those words when I was a child - but I never bothered to look them up. The meaning you give does indeed seem to point directly to the Stone of Orthanc. (Now I start to wonder: if the Stone = jetsam, does that make the pipe weed they find flotsam? Thereby setting up the encounter with Saruman on the way home, where the tobacco is regarded by the fallen wizard as stolen from him?)

On "even" the Riders of Rohan knowing hobbits - yes, but here and there in these chapters it is made clear that the Rohirrim migrated from just that same area in the North (near Beorn's house in 'The Hobbit') as did the hobbits, and they remember the hobbits in the old stories they brought south with them.

Actually, the story of Rohan in these chapters is very much bound up with fairy-stories proving true and the old songs springing to life (hobbits, ents, and the heir of Elendil returning). Theoden overcomes the voice of Saruman only after he has recognized the truth in fairy stories. I mention this in relation to the question of Grima. While I have no clue what his original character flaw might have been, his case is worth comparing with Ted Sandyman, the hobbit who signs up to the new order of Saruman in the Shire. We meet Ted Sandyman at the start of the story, in the pub where he is disparaging Sam's talk of walking trees and elves. So his character flaw, or at any rate one expression of it, is that he dismisses fairy tales.

[Eamila Bolger]

Excellent notion about that pipeweed begin flotsam in the full meaning of the word, @Chrysophylax Dives! Pippin even called it flotsam when talking to the others. That title wasn't there for nothing!

Those fairy stories keep coming back. I love it. In a world that is about to be in a very realistic war, fairytales become true and are of much more importance than anyone could ever have known. Those who are prepared to see it, are those who can benefit from it.

I have nothing more to add to The Palantir, so let's go on to the next book! Yay!

[Boromir88]

Ooh great finds about flotsam and jetsam. I never knew it would refer to the pipeweed that was found and the palantir that was jettisoned.

And I meant to respond to @Eamila Bolger's question.. And second: Saruman speaks of the 'crowns of seven kings'? What seven kings did he mean there? The Nazgul were with nine.

'Later! Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dur itself, I suppose; and the crowns of the seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now.' (The Voice of Saruman)

I'm remembering favorite quotes everywhere, because this is another one! I've always read this thinking Saruman was being poetic in his insult calling Gandalf arrogant and power-hungry. I don't think he's referring to any specific kings or kingdoms, because 'crowns of the seven kings' is lower case. Where 'Five Wizards' is capitalized and so Saruman is referring to the 5 Istari specifcally. Saruman's accusing Gandalf of wanting power over Sauron (Keys of Barad-dur), spiritual power (rods of the Five Wizards - the Valar's messengers in Middle-earth) and temporal power (crowns of the seven kings).

[Eamila Bolger]

Ah that sounds perfectly plausible indeed. I read Gandalf's rhyme one chapter later and Minas Tirith has of course seven stars and there used to be seven palantiri, so seven is probably not 'just' a number. But since indeed it's seven kings and not THE seven kings, he might be using it as a metaphor instead of referring to seven very specific kings. Thank you @Boromir88!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Those fairy stories keep coming back... Those who are prepared to see it, are those who can benefit from it.

Yes! But you make me wonder what does it mean for Pippin to see this Stone/into this Stone? Does he benefit? He escapes where Saruman and Denethor both fail; he escapes, though Aragorn succeeds. Four who look into the Stone, see the face of Sauron, and hear his thoughts spoken in their own minds. And then I want to say:

Hold up everyone! I feel you'all are over keen to jump over the terrible, awful, but profoundly significant drawing of a hobbit 'face to face' - and thought to thought - with Sauron. If ever we glimpse an image of what the One Ring means it is surely here and now, no? The road to and into and through Mordor is grim and sad and dusty, let's not be in such a hurry to jump over the Stone of Orthanc!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Pippin does not seem to properly recognize a fairy story when he sees one, though he plays the part assigned to him in this one (the crystal ball that you should NOT look into!). I am not sure if he benefits at all from the experience (Sam surely gains from looking in the Lady's Mirror). Pippin seems to develop least out of the hobbits.

[Nessa Saelind]

Reading all of your reflections and thoughts about these last chapters of Book III reminded me of something that always kind of bothered me when I was reading about Pippin and the palantír in chapter 11.

When Pippin's talking about what he saw in the stone to Gandalf at one point he says:

"I felt I was falling to pieces. No, no! I can’t say any more. I don’t remember anything else."

The experience he had sounded very traumatic to me, but I was surprised how little Tolkien dwelt on what Pippin went through. Gandalf keeps saying how hobbits have an amazing power of recovery, and that Pippin will probably get over his traumatic experience quickly.

"He was not held long, and hobbits have an amazing power of recovery. The memory, or the horror of it, will probably fade quickly."

In the quote above he states that it will "probably fade quickly", and later on in the chapter when Gandalf and Pippin are riding to Minas Tirith, the paragraph starts with that he was recovering and goes on to say

The horror of the Stone and of the hideous shadow over the moon was fading, things left behind in the mists of the mountains or in a passing dream.

Sorry about the ramble and the longwinded way that's taking me to get to the point (there's a method and a point to my madness ), but the fact that Pippin's trauma was glossed over (for me too easily) always felt demeaning (if that's the right word). Yes, one of the characteristics of Hobbits is that they can recover from injury or trauma quickly, but this trauma was really glossed over. I'd like to know your thoughts about this? Am I reading the whole thing wrong? Maybe I imagined this slight toward my favourite character

[Chrysophylax Dives]

'Later! Yes, when you also have the Keys of Barad-dur itself, I suppose; and the crowns of the seven kings, and the rods of the Five Wizards, and have purchased yourself a pair of boots many sizes larger than those that you wear now.' (The Voice of Saruman)

I don't think he's referring to any specific kings or kingdoms, because 'crowns of the seven kings' is lower case. Where 'Five Wizards' is capitalized and so Saruman is referring to the 5 Istari specifcally. Saruman's accusing Gandalf of wanting power over Sauron (Keys of Barad-dur), spiritual power (rods of the Five Wizards - the Valar's messengers in Middle-earth) and temporal power (crowns of the seven kings).

Boromir, I like your reasoning. The lower case 'crowns of the seven kings' suggests a turn of phrase here, rather than set-in-stone story elements. However, when you set out each other element - 5 Istari and 1 Dark Tower - it makes me think that the 7 crowns must be referring to Gondor, it feels now like an allusion to old but unspecified (to us) Gondorian lore (and chimes with the 7 stars).

[Chrysophylax Dives]

The horror of the Stone and of the hideous shadow over the moon was fading, things left behind in the mists of the mountains or in a passing dream.

... the fact that Pippin's trauma was glossed over (for me too easily) always felt demeaning (if that's the right word). Yes, one of the characteristics of Hobbits is that they can recover from injury or trauma quickly, but this trauma was really glossed over. I'd like to know your thoughts about this? Am I reading the whole thing wrong? Maybe I imagined this slight toward my favourite character

Nessa Saelind, yes. I agree. But I think I excuse this demeaning of Pippin's trauma in light of what is achieved with the Pyre of Denethor. Meriadoc, of course, is going to go on to pierce the undead sinews of the Chief Nazgul, the dread witch king of Angmar. Pippin's path is perhaps less dramatic, but only in contrast to this stunning deed of Merry Brandybuck. Pippin will witness the Steward of Denethor, a great Lord of Numenor, burn like the heathen kings of old - with a Palantir clasped to his breast (and ever after those without great strength who look to this Stone see only the two withered hands of Denethor). And that is to say nothing of the words of Gandalf and the rescue of Faramir. On one level, the Pyre of Denethor is the full drawing out of Pippin's horror - another encounter, through the Stones, with Sauron, only now, rather than drawn face to face with the Necromancer - an encounter the full traumatic horror of perhaps passes the limits of what Tolkien feels he can do with his art, Pippin watches another - a far greater person than himself - who looks into the same face and hears words from the same mind of dark magical power.

In short, maybe it helps to think of the engagement with the (surely?) life-changing experience of Peregrin Took in the Stone of Orthanc as delayed until Minas Tirith?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I have nothing more to add to The Palantir, so let's go on to the next book! Yay!

Greetings all, especially Eamila Bolger, whose words above gave me great pause and are indirectly responsible for me digging through older discussions of earlier chapters. I see after FR a 'wrap-up' thread. Surely TT also deserves a 'wrap-up'? I am frankly shocked, and a little alarmed, Eamila, that you have nothing more to add to The Palantir! You, our thread's greatest commentator, if I may be so bold.

And my red flag of welcome is held up here also for @Boromir88, who first suggested jumping to RK. What about a wrap-up?

[Eamila Bolger]

Sorry for disturbing you ;-) A wrap-up sounds great to me. Since the new thread was already started and I was quite late with my last reading/posting, I thought I was falling behind anyway, which is why I said 'On to the next book' but that doesn't mean we cannot continue here with a wrap up!
I'd say: go right ahead!

[Boromir88]

@Chrysophylax Dives by all means continue. I will probably be writing a post on The Taming of Smeagol and Passage of the Marshes over the weekend, since I finished reading them today. However, I'll still be popping in here to read the on-going and fascinating palantir discussion.

I don't have much more to add to that topic, I didn't think about it before, but I liked @Nessa Saelind's point that Pippin's horror/shock seems to get glossed over. It reminded me of Merry coming under the "Black Breath" in Bree, because I thought that was also quickly glossed over, considering what happens in ROTK when Eowyn and Merry are near death because of it.

Perhaps as Chrysophylax Dives mentions there is a delay. Pippin's (like Merry's with the Black Breath) first encounter with the palantir was only a small sample. They have only scratched the surface when coming into contact with dangerous "sorcery." Their level of contact gets more intense in ROTK and so maybe we'll see the trauma get worse as well.

[Nessa Saelind]

@Chrysophylax Dives @Boromir88 - I think you're both right, perhaps Tolkien chose to gloss over Pippin's trauma in this chapter and return to it in Book V when he faces greater challenges. Maybe it's a topic to keep in mind as the read-along moves to book IV, since Frodo and Sam will be facing some traumas of their own there. It might be an interesting thing to compare, or at least keep in mind :-)

[Lail]

@Boromir88 - wow thank you for the link to that thread! I don't have much time to read it now but I'm going to save it for later! So my assumption may be wrong that it was Saruman who first "turned" Grima but rather that he was already close to Theoden and Saruman took advantage of that. Yes, I agree Grima must have some weakness that made him vulnerable to turn on his own people and fall under Saruman's sway. I wonder if he had some ambition to rise above his station or a chip on his shoulder for some reason. Of course as you said it is implied that Eowyn was to be his reward but let's just say that if so, Saruman is not giving Eowyn much credit as an independent person if he thinks he can just trade her in exchange for Grima's service. (And I would argue, she very much is independent.)

The definition and interpretation of Flotsam & Jetsam is fascinating, @Eamila Bolger! I fully admit I don't read much into chapter titles but that is just perfect.

Going back to Saruman...so he started to turn traitor during Thengel's reign 60-65 years before FotR. Am I remembering wrong or was Aragorn (under an alias I think?) in Rohan at that time/didn't he serve Thengel? Did he have any inkling, then, of Saruman's treachery from that experience?

I do agree, @Nessa Saelind, about the hobbits and resiliency. Here is another example while reading when I thought much the same as you! From Flotsam and Jetsam -

'But you did not know about Grishnakh.' He [Pippin] shuddered and said no more, leaving Merry to tell of those terrible moments: the pawing hands, the hot breath, and the dreadful strength of Grishnakh's hairy arms.

It must have been terrifying to be taken by the orcs! All of the hobbits face a lot of traumas when you think about it and they do kind of just keep rolling (up to now anyway). I think both this and the Palantir and the other instances mentioned are all a bit glossed over and are showing us that hobbits are quite resilient. However, once they return home, I don't think any of them are quite the same again after what they've been through.

[Boromir88]

@Lailyn Yes, I agree Grima must have some weakness that made him vulnerable to turn on his own people and fall under Saruman's sway. I wonder if he had some ambition to rise above his station or a chip on his shoulder for some reason.

The previous times I've read the books I was much younger and applied a school-age teenager's interpretation to Grima. Rohan seems to be strictly a martial culture. Their "heroes" are blonde haired warriors and your fame/worthiness is determined by what you do in battle.

Where Grima was kind of a "nerd" if you will, the outcast of society. I don't recall if it mentions he has black hair, but he's pale-skinned, doesn't seem to like going outside. He turns into a bit of a creeper and real slimy character. Grima was never going to be an important/beloved figure in Rohan's culture, unless that culture was changed.

I was interested to see if my younger interpretation would still apply or if a new and slightly older eyes would see differently. So far, I think I have to get to the end of the story to figure out what I think about Grima this time. I did make a note that Theoden's first offer of pity was likely something Grima would not accept:

'No, not one shall be left, not even Grima. Grima shall ride too. Go! You have yet time to clean the rust from your sword.'
...
'You have my pity,' said Theoden. 'And I do not send you from my side. I go myself to war with any men. I bid you come with me and prove your faith.' (The King of the Golden Hall)

To prove his faith, Theoden says Grima must ride to war. I mean come on Theoden, he knows Grima can't do that, but that's Rohan's culture and Grima's a coward.

[Eamila Bolger]

I like that thought a lot, I must say. Thank you for that point of view, @Boromir88. Gríma the outcast who found favor with the king even though he looked different than the others. Being loved or feeling important might as well have been his weakness. Saruman may just have used that, telling him that he had information that would make Gríma of much more importance/value to the king. And in the end, all he needed to say was 'See! Nobody understands you, even the king doesn't value you, but I do, come to me'. I see Gríma rather as a slave of his own desire and will to please (and therefore a slave to others), than as somebody who is capable of bending the will of another because his own will is so strong.

[Nessa Saelind]

However, once they return home, I don't think any of them are quite the same again after what they've been through.

They certainly aren't, and we'll get to that when we get there Maybe then would be a better time to discuss how all the traumas the hobbits survived affected them and were they really glossed over or did Tolkien took the time to address them. I know Frodo's trauma's were addressed, but I don't think Merry's and Pippin's were. But I'm getting ahead of the book. :-)

@Boromir88 - that's a really interesting point about Grima and Rohirric culture! I hadn't really looked at him from this point of view, but it makes sense. Also I liked that you mentioned that our thoughts and interpretations of characters change as we get older. It would be interesting at the end of the trilogy to compare our thoughts back when we first read it and now X years apart and see how our views and opinions changed. Or haven't changed. :-)

[Lail]

What a good point, Boro. So maybe a chip on the shoulder from feeling like a bit of an outcast despite being the King's advisor. If he felt no connection/acceptance by Rohan's society, then it makes sense that he would accept an offer from Saruman to serve him and eventually betray his own. I have to say, I do feel sorry for him even after all the awful things he does especially if he was actually ostracized by his fellow Rohirrim. If having dark hair and being a bit nerdy makes you an outcast in Rohan I'd probably be one, too.

[Boromir88]

Thanks for the kind words. Grima "the outcast," I don't know if it is more my own head canon when I was younger or if it's supported by the text. I imagine Rohan has a strictly militaristic/warrior culture, in which case Grima just wouldn't ever fit in. Unfinished Tales mentions that Grima's chief opponents were Theodred and Eomer, as sort of the beloved leaders of the people and trust in Theoden. He tried to pit the two against each other at first, but failed and so weakened Theoden into believing that Eomer was ambitious trying to seize power:

Theoden before his 'sickness' had been much loved by all his kin and people, and the loyalty of Theodred and Eomer remained steadfast, even in his apparent dotage. Eomer also was not an ambitious man, and his love and respect for Theodred (thirteen years older than he) was only second to his love of his foster-father. Grima therefore tried to play them one against the other in the mind of Theoden, representing Eomer as ever eager to increase his own authority and to act without consulting the King or his Heir. In this he had some success, which bore fruit when Saruman at last succeeded in achieving the death of Theodred. (Unfinished Tales, The Battles of the Fords of Isen)