[Game] Change My Mind

Discussions in Middle-earth lore, language and books.
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Istari Sage
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Change My Mind!

Welcome to Change My Mind! Inspired by the Inter Kingdom Debates, these threads and conversations with @Ercassie and @Sorceress.

The idea is simple: someone posts a middle-earth lore Opinion like "Melkor is clearly the bad guy" or "middle-earth would have been better with the internet". Then people post arguments to convince them to change their mind (i.e. posts in opposition to the Opinion). Posts are encouraged, but not required, to include quotations and may also be of a humorous type.

Rules
  1. If you post an Opinion you cannot participate in the debate over that Opinion
  2. Once people have responded, the Opinion poser chooses a winner and the winner posts the next Opinion
  3. Try to make posts at least a paragraph or two
  4. Don't post more than once in reply to a single Opinion.

I'll post the first Opinion in the following post.
Last edited by Romeran on Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Istari Sage
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Opinion: one simply can walk into Mordor.

Balrog
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Wrong! Speaking as a marathoner (well half-marathoner) one cannot walk into a place like Mordor. Walking takes too long and there are too many pitfalls, too many pits to fall into that can inhibit one while they are "simply walking". Walking also makes one easily seen, moving as slow as a dung beetle will most certainly get you caught. Look at what happened to Sam and Frodo when they tried to "simply walk" through Shelob's Lair. Frodo got poisoned and captured by the forces of Cirith Ungol. What might have happened if they ran? Could they have outrun the giant spider until she lost interest too far from her territory? They could have.

Running gives one momentum that can carry them over said pits and falls and get them there faster. Running can keep you hidden, especially if you do rolls and spins, as demonstrated by films like Galaxy Quest. The rolling (and running) does indeed help. Plus, in the films, when anyone is actively going to Mordor, are they "simply walking"? I think not. Aragorn was running, Frodo and Sam were stumbling along moving at more of a crawl of a trudge than a simple walk.

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"We are born of the blood, made men by the blood, undone by the blood. Our eyes have yet to open... Fear the Old Blood..."

New Soul
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Hmm, if you look on the maps, the greater part of Mordor in the south and east under the name of Nurn was well accessible from the east. There are no mountains, only grasslands and perhaps light woods. The lake Nurnen lays central there. If you don't have a problem with nearby darkness, I guess it would be quite good to live there, mostly for nomads I think. The plateau of Gorgoroth is less easier to access because it got a small southern opening from the Nurn lands, and perhaps guarded there also but there is no mention of it on Tolkien Gateway.
Just call me Aiks or Aikári. Notify is off.
Find me stuff in Gondolin.
And let us embark to Valinor!

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One cannot simply walk into Mordor, because there are but four paths, each of which is met with significant obstacle.

The first of these entrances is the Morgul Vale. Unfortunately, through the Morgul Vale lies Minas Morgul, and there our first obstacle to simply walking into Mordor lies, for before Minas Morgul itself is a bridge. Now, wiktionary defines a bridge as:
"bridge" via wiktionary wrote:A construction spanning a waterway, ravine, or valley from an elevated height, allowing for the passage of vehicles, pedestrians, trains, etc.
We see that this bridge satisfies the definition, as it "passed over the stream in the midst of the valley" (The Two Towers, 'The Stairs of Cirith Ungol'), and also that it allowed the passage of vehicles (the Lord of the Nazgul, horsed), pedestrians (Frodo, foolhardily), and trains ("behind him still the black ranks crossed the bridge" ibid). At this point it need be remarked upon how bridges may come to be. A bridge does not exist until a sufficient body of people come together, decide to create one, and then either do it themselves or enlist others to go about the work. This is a considerable amount of work that requires a sophisticated relationship with a body of oversight, and is, to speak plain, no simple matter. Therefore, all transit across a bridge cannot be said to be simple, unless one were to ignore the context of what engineered the situation. This blindness to history would reduce the whole question to meaninglessness, as every step taken could be inspected with no consideration for any step before it, and therefore it would be simple to walk into anywhere, and then where would we be? Therefore, entering Mordor via the Morgul Vale cannot be seen as simple.

The second of these entrances is the offshoot of the Morgul Vale, via the aforementioned Stairs of Cirith Ungol. But this is, as the name suggests, stairs, and thus finds itself the second of our obstacles for simply walking into Mordor. Stairs are generally described not as being walked, but as being climbed, a verb which denotes a certain degree of difficulty, and is in other places used for transit up walls, mountains, and corporate ladders. Even at its least strenuous, stairs can be said to be taken, which still evokes the idea of some struggle of ripping ownership from the clutches of a mysterious unnamed party. This is not a matter of ease. It is not something done simply.

Further, the end result of this path involves passing through a great deal of spider webs. Combined with the stairs, this leaves no other alternative than to consider this passage not into Mordor proper, but Mordor's attic. This is neither a simple nor a reputable way of entering a place: it is the recourse of masked menaces, such as burglars and raccoons.

The third of these entrances is the back path to Mordor, going around it to the east in order to make use the wide stretch of its border which is not covered with mountains. While at first glance this may seem relatively simple, this holds true only if we forget that the struggle here is getting around to the back side. An army is slaughtered in the rout, when they turn their backs to those who wish them harm, but does not mean slaughtering an army is child's play, for it is in getting to the rout that the difficulty lies.

In the same vein, it is getting to the back side of Mordor which is the primary difficulty, and there is really no way to escape that this does not make it simple. Imagine, if you will, that you had lost the key to your front door, so that every single time you wanted to leave your house you would have to go out the back and walk around. Imagine if every single time you wanted to return home, at the weary end of the day, there was the increased burden of shimmying around back. Such an absurd display can never be considered simple.

The fourth, and final, of the entrances to Mordor is via the Black Gate. But 'The Black Gate is Closed' (The Two Towers, index). This provides an impassable fourth and final obstacle, and snuffs simplicity.

QED

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High Lord of Imladris
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Yes and No, on can walk into Mordor, but it is not simple nor is it from every direction. Indeed the paths to Mordor from the west, north and south are beyond simply walking. These arguments have been soundly made already. With Spiders, pitfalls, and entire rotting swamp of dead, an orc army inside the Black Gates and the Watchers... over all those directions just are not workable over all.

Now the East side is mountain free, which means one CAN simply walk there but the question is the route to get there and it needs to avoid several problematic barriers. IF one is approaching from the east, already being east of Mordor then Yes because that is no longer the back door to the place but the front door for you. One can simply walk into Mordor - as the armies are not looking to the east in Modor, the foes are from the west and while the inhabitants of Mordor are spread throughout the dark land, we note that they did not overly LOOK for a foe to wander in from any direction other than west and the Black gate (we see this in the fact that Frodo and Sam literally march WITH the orcs for a while) So if you are approaching from the east at a walk they are probably going to assume you belong there and let you wander about to your hearts content as long as you look mostly evil. (stolen orc armor will suffice)

NOW if you are walking in from other direction you have to give a proper berth to all the other issues including armies watching the North and Southern flanks as well as the frontal assault direction of west. This berth means you're not simply walking in but taking a round about route in order to avoid these issues and get you far enough east that nobody pays attention to you.
Sereg a Dîn

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I was going to wait a bit longer, but in the name of striking while the iron is hot and with such an awesome post by @Elenhir that I'll declare a winner.

@Elenhir you are the winner! Go ahead and post a middle-earth Opinion to continue the game.

Thanks to everyone else for participating so far :grin:

Istari Savant
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Opinion: The Man in the Moon came down precisely when he meant to. (Bonus points for responses in verse)

High Lord of Imladris
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This is true both for coming down exactly when he means and I am willing to assume he most certainly stayed too late. I say this as at no point in the poem does it ever actually state when the Man in the Moon actually came down but we do know know that it was early enough that the bar/pub was open and that the escapades too all night so that everyone goes to sleep right when the sun is coming up.

So we do know that he came early enough to get into the pub without an issue, meaning he had every intention of going to the pub that night and nobody had any issue with him being there which means it was quite likely the night of the new moon and the moon was not suppose to be in the sky anyways so it was absolutely his day off (well night in this case)otherwise the first seven stanzas would not be the ostler and everyone else perfectly find with the Moon still being about right up until the stars started to fade from they sky and the sun was coming.

This likely because the sun is some sort of angry ex in terms of the moon which is why they need to get him the heck out of there before he is spotted by the sun and her fiery eyes. We see in the final six stanza's everyone is doing their best aside from the cutlery and the cow and dog are working on getting him the heck out of there in terms of him staying too late and them getting him out of trouble right before they all go to bed as well.
Sereg a Dîn

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The Man in the Moon did not come down precisely when he meant to.

The man in the moon was eager to be among the people of the earth. When we read about the disposition of The Man in the Moon he is described as yearning for earth:

"And he yearned for the mirth of the populous earth
and the sanguine blood of men.
He coveted song, and laughter long,
and viands hot, and wine,
Eating pearly cakes of light snowflakes
and drinking thin moonshine."

(The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, 6 The Man in the Moon Came Down Too Soon, stanza 6, my bold emphasis)

Note also that he appears to be mostly interested in mirth (i.e. making merry, singing songs, eating and drinking) with the people of the earth especially specialty food. We learn that despite his broidered attire and beautiful gem diadems, the Man in the moon is truly lonely:

"So was lonely too with nothing to do
but stare at the world of gold
And heark to the hum that would distantly come
as gaily round it rolled."
(ibid, stanza 3)

And so we establish that he did intend to go down and visit earth. And indeed that he did not wish to simply see the flora and fauna but particularly wanted to be with people and to make merry with them. But the question remains, did he do so precisely when he meant to? We know that one day he goes on a walk and opens a door:

"In his mantle grey he walked one day
across a shining floor,
And with crystal key in secrecy
he opened an ivory door."
(ibid, stanza 1)

This obviously means some sort of intention, but he's not yet arrived on earth as he is described as walking down a stairwell. It is later in the poem that we find out how he ends up on earth, and it is indeed an accident.

"He twinkled his feet, as he thought of the meat,
of pepper, and punch galore;
And he tripped unaware on his slanting stair,
and like a meteor,
A star in flight, ere Yule one night
flickering down he fell
From his laddery path to a foaming bath
in the windy Bay of Bel."
(ibid, stanza 7, my bold emphasis)

Note that the Man is still presumably walking down the "filigree stair of glimmering hair" (ibid, stanza 2) as the subsequent stanzas (2-6) describe his love for gems and his desires, that is he has not fully come down. He is still in the process of coming down when he gets distracted and twinkles his feet and trips unaware that means he cannot have done it intentionally. He subsequently falls (like a meteor) into the Bay of Bel thus arriving fully down. It's also worth pointing out that he falls down like a meteor which is to say that he must fall very fast so he must have had sufficient time to gain such a monumental speed. Therefore he must have fallen from a great height (having come all the way from the moon) so that the journey (without the fall) would have taken longer. This would make sense because he later arrives in the morning (after having fallen) but if he intended to arrive in the evening and the journey down the stairs in the normal fashion was long, then it would make sense that he had to leave early and thus when he fell he arrived much faster than he had intended.

To fully drive the point home, we already know that he was eager to drink and eat and make merry with the people of earth but it was early in the morning -- certainly not the best time to come for making merriment! And indeed he is unable to find anyone. "Not a man did he meet, / no voice was raised in song" (ibid, stanza 10) and later on he goes so far as to knock on doors and cry out: "He knocked as he passed on doors locked fast,/ and called and cried in vain" (ibid) Why would a man who's primary reason to go down in the first place was to be among people and to laugh and sing songs with them choose to go down at precisely the worst time? Clearly he did not mean to go down when he did.

It is also quite clear in the final stanza that even the kindly cook who lets him in thinks he arrived too soon:

"For puddings of Yule with plums, poor fool,
he arrived so much too soon:
An unwary guest on a lunatic quest
from the Mountains of the Moon."
(ibid, stanza 12, my bold emphasis)

And as we established that meat and pearly cakes and the sort are precisely the thing that the Man in the Moon came down for, so if he arrived precisely when he meant to, then why would he arrive when he could not have these things? Again it is clear that his timing was an accident rather than intending as he intended to enjoy these things with the people of earth before he tripped and unceremoniously landed on earth much too soon.

Not to attack his character but the previous poem is called "The Man in the Moon Stayed Up Too Late"(The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, V, my bold emphasis) so we know he has a habit of not being very good with time in the first place.

Istari Savant
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Let's toss it back to @Romeran.

Istari Sage
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Opinion: Maeglin was responsible for the fall of Gondolin (definitely not trying to snipe @Ercassie with this one :grin:)

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