Riddles in the Dark

[Drífa]

Edit: because i could not but use the proper name, i felt uncomfortable and deleted the story. i'll say though, on thinking on it from the perspective of the parents, this daughter was the last - and apparently final - child of nine. Give that one and then both parents with the family name had obviously been thinking on the double-name for a long time, i do find it hard to begrudge them the given name of their daughter, though they did her no kind deed i think (shades of a Johny Cash song).

The hint is in what Chrysophylax wrote not in a Cash song per se, just shades of a Johny Cash song as Chrysophlax stated.

[Aranadhel]

So means you're near Judea and Samarea?

Interesting that you as an Ashkenazi Jew is staying in the community of the Mizrahi Jew... You like Arabian food by the way like hummus and falafel?

[Drífa]

Your spamming, @Aranadhel. Last I looked, this was a riddle thread. Not even a guess?

[Aranadhel]

Oh sorry @Drifa. I'm guessing David vs Goliath?

[Drífa]

That is an intelligent guess.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Middle-earth Related

It started with a positive
outcome and an unlockable lock.
I was the first of the first to hatch,
then there was one other;
a symbolic red patch.
Long it lasted till finally, alas, I was
the last of the last.
Who am I?

Edit: because i could not but use the proper name, i felt uncomfortable and deleted the story. i'll say though, on thinking on it from the perspective of the parents, this daughter was the last - and apparently final - child of nine. Give that one and then both parents with the family name had obviously been thinking on the double-name for a long time, i do find it hard to begrudge them the given name of their daughter, though they did her no kind deed i think (shades of a Johny Cash song).

The hint is in what Chrysophylax wrote not in a Cash song per se, just shades of a Johny Cash song as Chrysophlax stated.

And now my own words are being used as a clue to a riddle i cannot get? that is dark and twisted, and i still got no clue....

Holy Ancient Chickens! You are the last of the nazgul? Nope, that don't work.

David and Goliath is said to have been in a field about 10 minutes drive away. Sometimes when you go past there are coaches full of Japanese tourists visiting the field. And the food i like is bacon, which there is precious little of here.

[Aranadhel]

@Drifa I would guess it to be Medusa?


@Chrysophylax Dives how can you eat bacon when it is forbidden to eat swine meat in Judaism? and you havent' answered my other questions...

[Ercassie]

@Aranadhel, the only thing we are sure of is that the riddle is Middle Earth related. Drifa clearly said so. So David v Goliath and Medusa are probably veering on the unlikely side.

But since I am only able to post about what it surely isn’t, instead of what it might be, I shall leave you to it, and good luck.

[Aranadhel]

Then I shall answer it to be Shelob!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

so here is my thinking at the moment. based on the 'clues' in my own words, we are looking at one person who has two names. (is the bolded 'nine' a red herring?)

I was the first of the first to hatch,
then there was one other;
a symbolic red patch.
Long it lasted till finally, alas, I was
the last of the last.

And at the moment i am wondering if the 'I' = a letter? So then we would have two names, the first starting with I and the second ending with I.

I don't have anything that fits. O you who know your second and first ages better, could this go anywhere?

(And now, Aranadhel, I can answer your questions without spamming too much. On the first, your question already contains the answer: if I do not obey the command of the Lord not to eat pig therefore (logic) i am not an observant Jew. Judea is quite near - 20 minutes drive, but Samaria is further north. Your turn! Where are you?)

[Romeran]

@Chrysophylax Dives unfortunately I don't have a solution, I've been puzzling over it and I'm wholly stumped.

I do like this idea about letters and first and last names. But going with your previous statements about sons and daughters what about generations where the eldest and last shared the same name? Like Durin?

[Aranadhel]

@Drifa Is it Elros Tar Minyatur?

@Chrysophylax Dives Unfortunately my country does not recognise the state that you're living in however I'm not biased and it's not always I get to speak to a Jew. It's Ramadan now by the way so you get the idea. I would love to visit Jerusalem one day... You fluent in Hebrew?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Aranadhel, i'm going to risk the wrath of Drifa to say well met! We will speak more, I hope. And now, also, i understand better your irritation with encountering Morgiana and Ali Baba as a riddle (i never usually speak about that story here because i suspect the idea is too heretical for this forum to handle, but i believe it is the primary source of The Hobbit, and the storyteller the second greatest influence on Tolkien after the Beowulf-poet. There is more of the Arabian Nights in Middle-earth than meets the eye!).

Also, on the question i did not answer: i suspect you know already, but anyway: Sephardic food (or Mizrahi - the more usual term here) is very good; Ashkenazi cooking is astonishingly bad.

[Eldy Dunami]

I'm wondering if the "unlockable lock" refers to a lock of hair. If so, that opens up a lot of possibilities, since several members of the House of Finwë had names containing the element(s) Quenya findë and/or Sindarin fin, both referring to a lock or tress of hair. (It's unclear if Finwë himself is one of them.) I'm not sure that any of those characters fit the rest of the poem, though. Of course, there are other characters associated with hair who don't have names that reference it. Several notable firstborns in the House of Finwë died before their younger siblings, making them not "the last of the last," which could be an indication I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Anyway, I'm not at all confident in this guess, but I should probably make one while posting in this thread. So: is the answer Fingolfin, who at the time of his death believed the Noldor in Beleriand to have been ruined and thus, perhaps, himself to be the last of their princes.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I'm wondering if the "unlockable lock" refers to a lock of hair. If so, that opens up a lot of possibilities, since several members of the House of Finwë had names containing the element(s) Quenya findë and/or Sindarin fin, both referring to a lock or tress of hair.

Anyway, I'm not at all confident in this guess, but I should probably make one while posting in this thread. So: is the answer Fingolfin, who at the time of his death believed the Noldor in Beleriand to have been ruined and thus, perhaps, himself to be the last of their princes.

Finally, the Lore has turned up! Aye, that strikes me as a very cunning guess. It is possible that the fin bit has some play on the bit about the last (with fin in French = 'end'). Also, Fingolfin would seem to bridge Drifa's First Age knowledge and profound familiarity with The Hobbit (the 'golfin' bit of the name echoing the goblin killed by Bullroarer Took).

[Drífa]

No correct answer so far. Here are some clues.

Not a creature.

No, Fëanor, biologically, was an only child.

so here is my thinking at the moment. based on the 'clues' in my own words, we are looking at one person who has two names.

Do not search for the answer in the Years of the Trees, First Age or Second Age.

Try again.

[Rior Laegiel]

Aragorn Elessar?

Just a wild guess and not sure how he fits with the riddle but he's the one that comes to my mind if we're looking for someone from the third age with two names who has a (albeit a distant one) connection to Fëanor.

[Aranadhel]

@Drifa Tom bombadil!

@Chrysophylax Dives Wow I'm surprised for an Ashkenazi like yourself to like Mizrahi cuisine since it's your typical Arabian fare like hummus and falafel etc.

You joined the IDF by the way or got into Israel due to Aliyah? Toda...

[Eldy Dunami]

I think the Fëanor thing means the answer is someone with at least one sibling, and also two names. Aragorn was an only child. The "long it lasted" clue made me think the answer would be an Elf, but there are very few Elves we know of who lived only in the Third Age, and the only ones I can think of that had siblings were Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen. But none of them seem to fit the rest of the riddle. So I'm leaning towards the solution being a Dwarf, Man, or Hobbit, but I could be totally off.

I'm really at a loss right now, and I'm going to lose Internet shortly when my flight takes off, so I'm gonna have to pass on making a guess this time.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

What about the lock = of Galadriel = Gimli?

But 'son of Gloin' is not a second name. And what is this positive outcome? If this is Age 3, then i have no excuse for not guessing; but i still have no clue.

Eldy, hope the flight was smooth. I think not guessing but discussing the riddle keeps Drifa happy - its the constant secondary conversation that is going to get our ears boxed, eh Aranadhel? :) I'm happy to talk, but we must find somewhere other than this subterranean lake (though it is a perfect place), otherwise the dwarrahobbit will put on the magic ring and vanish us, or something equally disconcerting.

[Aranadhel]

Drifa - Is it Pharazon the Golden?

@Chrysophylax Dives Pick a spot and I'll join you there.. curious to know your answers... Toda

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Eldy: I am not even trying, desillusioned I have become.

Aranadhel and Chrys: OOME is the place for chats.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Arwen Evenstar?

(i don't feel quite comfortable having this conversation on an Out of Middle-earth public thread. @Fuin Elda, might there be a way for Aranadhel and myself to have a nice, quiet, out of notice chat in nulibrary?)

PS. Aiks, chin up! We are making the plaza a better place, one post at a time :) But i've been meaning to thank you, and having annoyed drifa already may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb by writing here, in the riddle thread, and so spamming! But for the last few weeks i've been cruising the plaza with notifications off - which i learned from your signature - it really is the secret to a better plaza experience! Thank you :)

[Fuin Elda]

@Chrysophylax Dives and @Aranadhel go right ahead

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Thanks @Fuin Elda - i should have warned you though (sorry), if you post here you gotta guess an answer to the riddle. Drifa gonna bash us all! @Aranadhel i'll see you in nulibrary somewhere - give me a day or two maybe (lots of work).

[Aranadhel]

What's a nulibrary?

[Eldy Dunami]

Is it Éomer Éadig? I have no idea how he might fit most of the poem, but he's the only post-Second Age character with two names and a known, named sibling who's coming to mind right now.

If not for the clue about the answer not coming from the Second Age, I might consider Isildur a possibility. He's an elder sibling, his younger brother Anárion was named for the sun and thus could have red symbolism, and the by the end of the Age Isildur outlived both his father and brother. But alas, only two years of his multiple centuries of life were lived in the Third Age.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I think the Fëanor thing means the answer is someone with at least one sibling, and ... I'm leaning towards the solution being a Dwarf, Man, or Hobbit

My instinct says hobbit, though possibly (this is Drifa) a dwarf.

Lobelia Sackville-Baggins?

-----
Aranadhel, nulibrary is a subforum nestling inside Lore. But I don't know the proper way to proceed and am hoping @Fuin Elda might put up a thread for us to talk on? (Not quite sure.) By the by, Fuin Elda, you do not need to post a riddle because i discovered (in my aimless attempt to answer the current one) that you have a riddle around page 7 to which no answer is given on the thread! (The answer was guessed and lost!)

[Drífa]

No correct answers. A name can be a first, middle or last name.

The Dragon is starting to contract the muscle in his second stomach. In other words, Chrysophylax Dives's guess is warming things up.

Try again!

[Eldy Dunami]

Is it Pearl Took? A Hobbit with a surname, she was an eldest sibling; the secondborn in her family was named Pimpernel, a genus of flowers, the most famous species of which is red; and who purportedly caused the "accidental" death of Lalia the Great, head of the Took family, allowing her father to accede to the family headship—for which she was quietly rewarded, indicating the death was considered a positive outcome by some. (Not sure she fits the other clues, though. )

[Drífa]

No correct answers. A name can be a first, middle or last name.

Haha, toasty but, no, it is not Pearl.

What I meant by two names is that it could be two first, two middle or two last names. My apologies for any confusion.

Try again!!

[Aranadhel]

Drogo!

@Chrysophylax Dives hurry up then, I am curious to know your answers to my question. Not always do I get to Prophet Moses' people...

[Chrysophylax Dives]

What I meant by two names is that it could be two first, two middle or two last names. My apologies for any confusion.

You have dropped buckets of confusion on our heads for days and days and days!

Tobias Hornblower (because of the long it lasted - Longbottom)

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Is it Pearl Took? A Hobbit with a surname, she was an eldest sibling; the secondborn in her family was named Pimpernel, a genus of flowers, the most famous species of which is red; and who purportedly caused the "accidental" death of Lalia the Great, head of the Took family, allowing her father to accede to the family headship—for which she was quietly rewarded, indicating the death was considered a positive outcome by some. (Not sure she fits the other clues, though. )

Eldy, I keep saying 'gosh' when i read your answers on this thread - and keep embarrassing myself by posting 'you must be right' and then discovering - nay. But even here when i already know this is not the correct answer, the nice reasoning and background erudition are truly astonishing! It is a privilege to read you on any thread, O loremistress emerita of the plaza.

On the riddle: hobbits - is the unlockable lock = lockholes?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Goldilocks Gamgee (daughter of Sam, who married Faramir Took)!

(Aranadhel: i think we must wait for Fuin Elda to wake up - many people here dwell in the far west.)

[Eldy Dunami]

Eldy, I keep saying 'gosh' when i read your answers on this thread - and keep embarrassing myself by posting 'you must be right' and then discovering - nay. But even here when i already know this is not the correct answer, the nice reasoning and background erudition are truly astonishing! It is a privilege to read you on any thread, O loremistress emerita of the plaza.

Thank you, Chrys, you are truly too kind. Also—unfortunate timing given the glowing compliment—but I just realized I misspoke in my previous post. The immediate beneficiary of Pearl's action was an older cousin, Ferumbras Took, who was in turn succeeded as Thain and head of the family by Pearl's (and Pippin's) father, Paladin, in time for Paladin to hold those positions during the main events of LOTR.

I wondered briefly if the Old Took might be the answer, but he had no recorded siblings. His eldest child, Isengrim (later Thain Isengrim III), did not even come close to outliving all his younger siblings, so I doubt he's the answer either. Narrowing in specifically to the Old Tooks' three famous daughters, the eldest of them (Belladonna) was also the first to die, so cross her off the list. Looking over the other Hobbit family trees in Appendix D, there are at least two further eldest children with red-theme-named younger siblings—Rudigar Bolger, elder brother of Ruby, and Hugo Boffin, elder brother of Primrose (perhaps a stretch)—but in both cases the younger siblings don't have death dates, so we can't say if the eldest outlived them. Also, neither Rudigar nor Hugo have extra names.

Perhaps I'm getting too hung up on the death date angle, so I'll take a shot in the dark and guess Elanor the Fair, daughter of Samwise Gamgee. Eldest child; had a younger sister named Rose; her father used the pet name Elanorellë in the unpublished Epilogue to LOTR; she had (locks of) blonde hair, unusually for a Hobbit; and was born just a few months after the miraculously splendid year of S.R. 1420. There'd be a stronger case if she was born in 1420, but she shares the distinctive blonde hair of the 1420 babies, and her birth could still be called one of the positive outcomes of the free peoples' victory in the War of the Ring. No idea if Elanor outlived her siblings, but she was the last mortal person to see Sam before he sailed over the sea.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Elanor the Fair, daughter of Samwise Gamgee. Eldest child; had a younger sister named Rose; her father used the pet name Elanorellë in the unpublished Epilogue to LOTR; she had (locks of) blonde hair, unusually for a Hobbit; and was born just a few months after the miraculously splendid year of S.R. 1420. There'd be a stronger case if she was born in 1420, but she shares the distinctive blonde hair of the 1420 babies, and her birth could still be called one of the positive outcomes of the free peoples' victory in the War of the Ring. No idea if Elanor outlived her siblings, but she was the last mortal person to see Sam before he sailed over the sea.

i was just about to post 'if that is not the right answer i will eat my hat' - but: the riddle indicates two siblings, and as with my Goldilocks, Elanor has lots of siblings.

And also you have Rose, and Elanor; and Frodo-lad will come, and Rosie-lass, and Merry, and Goldilocks, and Pippin; and perhaps more that I cannot see.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Mind you, Elanor marries Fastred of Greenholm

[Aranadhel]

I think it's Freddy Bolger!

@Chrysophylax Dives I will wait then your update... Ani is patient, especially in this holy month of Ramadhan...

[Rior Laegiel]

Frodo Baggins?

He was the first 'to hatch' because he was the first one who volunteer to take the ring to Mordor. It was a long journey and in the end, even though Sam followed him all the way, Frodo was the only one who could destroy the ring. The 'symbolic red patch' I thought could refer to hair color. But Sam was the only travel companion for part of the journey but he doesn't have red hair.

[Drífa]

No correct answer so far. Here are some clues.

Not a creature.

No, Fëanor, biologically, was an only child.

so here is my thinking at the moment. based on the 'clues' in my own words, we are looking at one person who has two names.

Do not search for the answer in the Years of the Trees, First Age or Second Age.

Try again.

What is meant by two names is that it could be two first, two middle or two last names. My apologies for any confusion.

You have dropped buckets of confusion on our heads for days and days and days!

This person is not a creature. This person is not an only child. This person is not from the Years of the Trees, First Age or Second Age. This person has two names.

I hope this is less confusing. If I give a broader hint on the last clue, I may as well tell you the answer. You are all on the right track, by the Shire!!!
Now try again!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@Drifa! "This person has two names." You are a natural born riddler because your clue is fundamentally ambiguous: one person (a) with personal name + family name; or (b) who is known to some people as X and to others as Y.

PS. you really have nailed that arrow quotation thing!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Belladonna Took

Ninth child, and eldest daughter, of The Old Took (Gerontius) and Adamanta Chubb.

Mrs. Bungo Baggins

[Aranadhel]

Bilbo Baggins

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Only us two gollums in here, eh Aranadhel? i don't know what is the hold up on finding a place outside of this deep, dark, doorless hole to have a chat.

Drifa, I take it Belladonna is not the correct answer and concede defeat. I started to write you a poem but was unable to finish.

Down in the deeps by dark waters cold
We gollums chew stones seeking nuggets of gold
As we swallow the dwarrahobbit’s latest pill
Round red eyes rolling but with tongues that are still

[Aranadhel]

Aye @Chrysophylax Dives my new Ashkenazi friend from Samarea.

@Drifa I'm going with Smeagol

[Drífa]

Nope, no correct answers. I am a quoting pro now!!

There was a hint in my last comment.

Did Smeagol have a sibling/s? Please do tell?

[Aranadhel]

Yes Smeagol's siblings fought in the War of the Rohirrim thus were forgotten in history....


Is it Samwise Gamgee?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Rosie Cotton/Gamgee.

---
@Aranadhel, @Fuin Elda kindly made us a place to chat. But i am not answering any of your questions till you tell me, in a post in our new teahouse, why it has the name that it does. Also, please note that on my side we are now approaching Pesach (Passover) and so my children are home and there is lots of cleaning to be done - in other words, I'll have less time than usual over the next two weeks. Everyone: this is of course a thread that all are welcome to visit and participate in. Please be respectful.

[Aranadhel]

Meriadoc Brandybuck!

@Chrysophylax Dives Shalom shabbat to you & family!