The Fairy Tale behind the Stone-giants

[Priya]

Many a reader has puzzled over the stone-giants featured in The Hobbit. Because in Tolkien’s subsequent writings, published during his lifetime, they fail to make another ‘solid’ appearance. At least not openly or in a obviously recognizable manner. Though there are some bare traces of them in an ancillary writing - the mention appears to stem from mannish legends.

Some folk have said that these giants are an anomaly. And that the Professor discarded their existence entirely for the more serious mythology. Tom Shippey has even gone as far as to suggest they were contemplated as allegorical weather phenomena - and that “the passage is a failure of tone” (The Road to Middle-earth, pg. 76).

The three most recognized scholars who have concentrated effort on The Hobbit: John Rateliff, Douglas Anderson and Mark Atherton - have nothing concrete to point to either. A large form of Troll, or The gnome Rubezahl in Andrew Lang’s The Brown Fairy Book, or Fenja and Menja - giantesses from The Song of Grotti - as antecedents - are all too far removed and stretch the imagination, I deem. Moreover there is little help available from Robert Foster in his The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, or what’s available in The Encyclopedia of Arda or even The Tolkien Gateway.

Everybody seems to be at a loss.

The main problem seems to be that in 85+ years no one has yet come across a viable source Tolkien might well have used. If we could discover an applicable mythology - it would wholly eliminate doubt in the minds of many - I’m sure. That is, of course, if the match is strong. So, given a lack of ‘decent evidence’, some folk have come to believe that the origin of the stone-giants lies mainly with Tolkien himself. Just like the ents - they were sort of ‘invented’ through his sub-creative skills.

But that is almost certainly not the truth - for there definitely exists a literary provenance. Indeed - an extremely good root. And it is a testament to Tolkien’s knowledge that he was aware (I’m sure) of a fairy tale set in the mountains of the Alps involving colossal giants - whereas I’m guessing tens of thousands of studious scholars (and maybe even more) have failed to run across it.

The story I believe from which the stone-giants were ‘extracted’ was written by one of Tolkien’s favored authors - Edward Knatchbull-Hugessen. It is the tale of The Giant Bramble-Buffer from River Legends, 1875.






The stone-giants are only mentioned briefly in The Hobbit. But what characteristics they do exhibit/display, match up splendidly with the River Legends account. A cursory comparative review right away tells us this was likely Tolkien’s source:


From The Hobbit, Chapter IV:

“… the stone-giants were out, and were hurling rocks at one another for a game, and catching them, and tossing them … They could hear the giants guffawing and shouting all over the mountainsides. … ‘… we shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football.’ ”. (my underlined emphasis)



From River Legends:

The mountain inhabiting giants of interest would:

“ ‘… fling enormous stones at each other in sport, which was pastime anything but delightful to their neighbours, whose lives and property were thereby grievously imperilled. …’ ”. (my underlined emphasis)

They were described as highly vocal ‘Daddyroarers’:

“ ‘…‘roarer’ is … intended to convey, … the gruff and deep-toned voice which usually characterizes the giant …’ … ‘… roaming far and wide over the mountains … loud cries and roars were often heard for miles, …’ ”. (my underlined emphasis)

While one particular giant, Bramble-Buffer:

“ ‘… if he met a man he generally gave him a kick, which sent him off fifty yards up in the air, and in most instances proved fatal. …’ ”. (my underlined emphasis)



Hmm .... undoubtedly then, the Professor’s children’s story had a sturdy mythological framework. As such - it only makes me admire it even more!


More to come .....

[Silky Gooseness]

Fascinating - thanks for sharing, Priya!

[Priya]

Now tales of giants inhabiting mountains are relatively rare. Even scarcer are tales which specifically associate them to the European Alps. The Giant Bramble-Buffer is the only fairy-story I have found meeting both criteria:

“ ‘… in the old, old times, the men of Rhineland were grievously troubled with giants of different sorts and sizes. Tradition tells us that they all sprang from the mighty giant Senoj, who, … was born, … among the loftiest peaks of the Alps, ...”.

“ ‘... The survivors of them ...” still dwell “in some parts of Switzerland ...’ ”.

Tolkien, we know, based the traversal across the Misty Mountains in The Hobbit on his expedition over the Swiss Alps in 1911. In Letter #306 (from The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Edited by H. Carpenter, 1981), he related:

“The hobbit’s (Bilbo’s) journey from Rivendell to the other side of the Misty Mountains, … is based on my adventures in 1911 …”.

So it would not be altogether surprising, if the stone-giants of The Hobbit had been inspired and founded on the mythology related by Knatchbull-Hugessen. Tolkien would, I deem, have immediately been attracted to knitting such a legend in to his own fairy tale. This would satisfyingly give it a pseudo ‘air of authenticity’. What we can reasonably conclude is that a mountainous Alpine habitation basis, in both stories, is a remarkable match.

Not just that, what also pairs well - is that the River Legends narration tell us the giants occupied themselves by ‘building mountains’ (see picture in my previous post):

“ ‘... they would amuse themselves by lifting huge masses of rock, and therewith building a mountain; ...’ ”

This ties in nicely with Tolkien’s account of a mannish legend (in a draft of Nomenclature of the Lord of the Rings) where giants:

“... in ‘ancient days’ had built the White Mountains ...”.

So what we are seeing - of the few and brief accounts we have of Tolkien’s stone-giants - his mythology has practically a perfect correspondence to that within River Legends. A tie-in far beyond a mere superficial affinity!

More to come ....

[Priya]

In developing the ‘mountain-building’ theme from my last post, and moving on to contemplate ‘size’ - it is unfortunate that Tolkien relayed no clues as to physical dimensions associated to these creatures. However, to build mountains - surely stone-giants must have been truly colossal. No, not of the size Jack (of beanstalk fame) battled and outwitted in English folklore; instead, they must have been in a wholly different league. As admitted at the end of The Giant Bramble-Buffer story:

“ ‘... we have had giants, of one sort or another, in old England but rarely of the size, and scarce even of the mischievous character, of your Daddyroarers. ...’ ”.

Gustave Dore’s striking illustration of Senoj “The Father of all Giants” is one of those that leaves a lasting impression. Perhaps ‘breathtakingly unforgettable’ is not far from the truth!

Only such a colossal figure (or similarly large descendants) would have aptly fitted Tolkien’s descriptive origin of the Carrock in The Hobbit:

“ ... cropping out of the ground, right in the path of the stream which looped itself about it, was a great rock, almost a hill of stone, like a last outpost of the distant mountains, or a huge piece cast miles into the plain by some giant among giants.” (my underlined emphasis)



To be continued .....

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Everybody seems to be at a loss.

The main problem seems to be that in 85+ years no one has yet come across a viable source Tolkien might well have used. If we could discover an applicable mythology - it would wholly eliminate doubt in the minds of many - I’m sure.

“… the stone-giants were out, and were hurling rocks at one another for a game, and catching them, and tossing them … They could hear the giants guffawing and shouting all over the mountainsides. … ‘… we shall be picked up by some giant and kicked sky-high for a football.’ ”. (my underlined emphasis)

I don't understand this post at all. For a start, could you not summarize your argument, at least giving an abstract at the start? You present so much evidence it is hard to keep up. But I don't get what you are seeking. The source of the giants are just giants, as found, for example (and I was just noting in another post) not in Fangorn but wandering myopically out of the Welsh Mountains in Farmer Giles of Ham.

These particular giants of the Misty Mountains have, as giants, two distinctive features: (a) they are stone, and (b) they are playing football. But these features are not so singular in the context of The Hobbit. By this point in the story we have already been told about Bullroarer Took knocking the head off of the goblin Golfinball and inventing the game of golf, and then met up with three Trolls who return to the stone of which they are made as the sun rises. So the giants in the mountains being stone and playing football fits with the context of the story we are in.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Hmm .... undoubtedly then, the Professor’s children’s story had a sturdy mythological framework. As such - it only makes me admire it even more!

Priya: Interesting views, as Silky said. It is indeed a sturdy mythological framework to ponder about. Thanks for sharing with your insights.

[Priya]

Hello Chrysophylax Dives

My intent is simply to explore/explain a piece of Tolkien’s world that I feel scholars have inadequately addressed. And to that end - share credible substantiating evidence for whatever claims I make.

As this is a discussion forum, I prefer to provide information in small readily digestible chunks - rather than a lengthy essay (though tbh, I feel by the end of all this discussion, these posts could well be turned into one worthy of any reputable Tolkien publication). As such, I’ve declined to provide an abstract - though I might give a summary at close.

I, for one, am not prepared to view The Hobbit stone-giants as ‘purely’ a joke in the golf/Golfimbul vein. However, I do accept there might have been some side-humour* inserted, for its obvious Tolkien found parody quite entertaining. Nevertheless, what I am trying to show, is that there is some ‘genuine’ pre-existing mythology behind them. It appears to me that the ‘stone-giants’ are a particular sort of Giant (to be expanded on in a future post). And that is kind of interesting. Indeed, I had not run across such categorization before reading The Hobbit. Have you, or anyone else previously encountered ‘stone-giants’ ?

Your comment “the source of the giants are just giants” - well that may or may not be true. In reviewing The Giant Bramble-Buffer - it struck me that this is the only ‘fairy-story’ I have run across (apart from perhaps Beowulf) that provides a source from which all giants stem. Tolkien might have found that interesting.

“... the men of Rhineland were grievously troubled with giants of different sorts and sizes. Tradition tells us that they all sprang from the mighty giant Senoj, who, … was born, … among the loftiest peaks of the Alps, ...” (my underlined emphasis)

Until my uncovering of a seemingly ‘forgotten’ book, I hadn’t imagined stone-giants to be so colossal. But now, having capitulated to an assumption of Tolkien having modeled his upon Knatchbull-Hugessen’s, my internal vision has changed. Most satisfactorily, for me, River Legends and the tale of The Giant Bramble-Buffer now enables me to picture these beings as not only truly gigantic, but also very human looking - and quite unlike the pure rock creations depicted in Peter Jackson’s movie. As to the physical constitution of stone-giants - I now do not believe they were necessarily made of stone - rather they were named so because they ‘built mountains’ with stone. These points, I quite earnestly feel, very likely reflect what Tolkien envisioned too. Then perhaps others will also see with more clarity - than they had before!

* To an Englishman - a game where an object is thrown at participants and actively caught and then on occasion kicked high, and yet be called a football - well that would be Rugby, not Football (Rugby was once called Rugby rules football). Many of us know of Tolkien’s association, prowess and achievements in this sport. So maybe the Professor’s intent was to make the ‘true’ founders of Rugby - his stone-giants? Such an endowed parodic nuance might well have been a clever little inside (or rather offside) joke!




Hello Aiks

Glad to see this interests you. Certainly Tolkien wasn’t one to write garbled stuff. For his Silmarillion tales he once confessed how he was occupied with:

“the construction of elaborate and consistent mythology” - Letter #19, December 1937

I’m sure such a mind-set existed - even when writing The Hobbit. It would not be difficult to believe that the process would have applied both internally to his tales and externally for real-world sources.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Your comment “the source of the giants are just giants” - well that may or may not be true. In reviewing The Giant Bramble-Buffer - it struck me that this is the only ‘fairy-story’ I have run across (apart from perhaps Beowulf) that provides a source from which all giants stem. Tolkien might have found that interesting.

“... the men of Rhineland were grievously troubled with giants of different sorts and sizes. Tradition tells us that they all sprang from the mighty giant Senoj, who, … was born, … among the loftiest peaks of the Alps, ...” (my underlined emphasis)

* To an Englishman - a game where an object is thrown at participants and actively caught and then on occasion kicked high, and yet be called a football - well that would be Rugby, not Football (Rugby was once called Rugby rules football).

Priya, I concede on all points. Actually, I never thought of the rugby/football thing. That is good. On the types of giants, I agree that Tolkien would have had an eye open for different classifications, and I also agree that there is something about stone-giants that calls for specific comment - though, you know, it might be no more than Tolkien hitting on the word combination and liking it.

The one thing I wonder about is the relative weight of the two sources that you mention. Tolkien dates Beowulf to the early 8th century, and surely took it as a surer guide to ancient traditions than The Giant Bramble-Buffer. So would it not make sense to consider your evidence above also in light of what we find in Beowulf?

[Priya]

Hello Chrysophylax Dives

Glad to see we are on the same page, or getting there! In fact, you are precisely the kind of a person I’m seeking as an audience; someone open-minded enough to weigh the evidence and have character enough not to unnecessarily cling to pre-existing views. I certainly will respond to your interesting point on reliability/authenticity/provenance of Beowulf vs. The Giant Bramble-Buffer when it comes to ‘giants’ - but in a post to come. In the meantime, I want to return to The Hobbit.

—————

Now one of the interesting things about the Carrock is how Tolkien described it as lying within a river (which he also termed a stream):

“... right in the path of the stream which looped itself about it, was a great rock ...”.

Perhaps unsurprisingly (from what we have seen so far) The Hobbit tale again matches the River Legends account pretty well. In Knatchbull-Hugessen’s story the giant Bramble-Buffer hated the river:

“ ‘Rhine … and used to vary his occupations sometimes by pitching pieces of mountain into it, …’ ”. (my underlined emphasis)

Which again resonates with the Carrock being likened to:

“... a last outpost of the distant mountains ... or a huge piece cast miles ... by some giant among giants.”

Okay - we have yet another strong correlation. But another interesting thing is that the Carrock too might have been modeled on his expeditionary summer 1911 trip to Switzerland!

One must remember that before embarking on writing The Hobbit, this European vacation was a ‘once in a lifetime adventure’. So one can reasonably postulate that it wasn’t just the scenic Alps that a young Tolkien took in, relished and subsequently spun into his fairy-story.

En route to the Alps, Tolkien journeyed through Germany for 2 days down the Rhine. In traveling down by boat from Cologne to Frankfurt towards the Alps, about half way into the voyage, he must have passed the infamous Lorelei Rock (also known as Loreley Rock). Located in one of the narrowest stretches of the river, coupled with its bend, the treacherous rock had been the scene of many a boating accident.

Now daylight hours are long in Europe during the summer, and navigation in this stretch, from what little information I have, is usually avoided during darkness. So surely Tolkien must have noticed it? After all, its presence is rather imposing. Surely it must have been pointed out by the seasoned travelers accompanying him. And its legendary status (as a siren’s trap) ought to have drawn Tolkien’s interest - wouldn’t you have thought?





Well - the German rock (see above) does have a flattened top. And aren’t the ledged time-worn sides reminiscent of a staircase with great steps? And doesn’t there appear to be an eroded path down to the river? Could such a viewing retained in his memory have been influential?

Seems quite possible. From The Hobbit:

“There was a flat space on the top of the hill of stone and a well worn path with many steps leading down it to the river, ...”.

The Rhine certainly bends around Lorelei Rock, thus altering the flow direction of the river. But the monolith isn’t an eyot - as Tolkien’s children’s tale describes the Carrock. Nevertheless, who knows how topography relating to a river’s course may have changed over the ages? Perhaps one side of conjectured once-encircling riverbeds had completely dried up over the passage of time? Indeed, it is quite possible Tolkien thought that way. After all, Middle-earth of the Third Age doesn’t much resemble modern Europe. So not every geographic feature in our world of today should match exactly with corresponding ones in times of yore. That would be amateurish on Tolkien’s part, and rather silly - don’t you think?


More on the way ....

[Chrysophylax Dives]

En route to the Alps, Tolkien journeyed through Germany for 2 days down the Rhine. In traveling down by boat from Cologne to Frankfurt towards the Alps, about half way into the voyage, he must have passed the infamous Lorelei Rock (also known as Loreley Rock).

That is very striking! I have to say that I have long considered the Carrock the single most mysterious element of The Hobbit. It is bound up also in the identity of Beorn, no?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

But cropping out of the ground, right in the path of the stream which looped itself about it, was a great rock, almost a hill of stone, like a last outpost of the distant mountains, or a huge piece cast miles into the plain by some giant among giants.

There is an echo of the stone-giants on the other side of the mountains, no?

The Carrock is singular in all sorts of ways. They land by eagle, and so we have the strange thing of the Company only fording one half of a river. And it is here that Gandalf first announces that he is about to depart. I have the sense here that Bilbo now has the magic ring in his pocket and the weirdest magic of the book is about to be played in the house of Beorn, and that this is the transition to the other side of the Wild, so to speak, an adventure in which Bilbo Baggins now shows his quality. The dream in the house of Beorn feels central, but the moment of landing on the Carrock seems to me where the change begins.

[Priya]

Hello Chrysophylax Dives

Yep, agreed - the Carrock is rather mysterious and tied to the equally mysterious Beorn/Stone-giants.
I’m going to try and lift the veil a little more - but there is some speculation involved. Not everyone will buy it - however, at least some logic is involved.



In continuation from my last post ...

The river Rhine runs on the west side of Lorelei Rock. The river necks markedly in the stretch bending around the edifice, and it’s also deepest in this zone. Its path doesn’t split around the rock (like the one in The Hobbit), and so the immovable hill is effectively an obstruction responsible for a single curving channel which is both narrow and deep.

For Tolkien’s tale, we can deduce that the Great River of Wilderland mainly flowed west of the Carrock - thus mirroring the Rhine/Lorelei. That’s because the fording of the east side was accomplished just across a shallow stream which the Company had little difficulty crossing). A:

“... ford of huge flat stones led to the grass-land beyond the stream.”

“... the river, ... was shallow and clear and stony at the ford.”

Overall, we have a close resemblance. Tolkien may have decided that the tale’s east-side stream would eventually dry up and leave no significant channel behind. This would then lend a kind of ‘realism’ to his story - and in a personalized manner, allow him to incorporate a memory of a famous legendary site on his voyage towards the Alps.

Such reminiscent inclusions were admitted by the Professor for TLotR, and of course were similarly employed for The Hobbit:

“To my mind it is the particular use in a particular situation of any motive, whether invented, deliberately borrowed, or unconsciously remembered that is the most interesting thing to consider.” - Letter #337

Nonetheless, though this might have been one of those occasions where sufficient motive existed, and though Lorelei Rock is a reasonable match - I admit and emphasize that absolute proof is elusive. To my knowledge, John Garth in The Worlds of J.R.R. Tolkien is the only other scholar who has suggested Lorelei Rock might have a connection to the Carrock. But he only indicated such a thought in a most cursory mention.




Moving on to Etymology:

What might provide a little strength to my case is understanding the etymology behind the name: ‘Carrock’. Beorn’s so-spoken referral of the monolith in The Hobbit has drawn a fair bit of interest. Chrysophylax Dives of this forum has also recognized that this particular item from Tolkien’s mythology is of considerable curiosity. Researchers have instigated multiple investigations, as to its etymology - as Tolkien never gave an ‘external’ explanation - only an ‘internal’ one:

“And why is it called the Carrock?” asked Bilbo as he went along at the wizard’s side.

“He called it the Carrock, because carrock is his word for it. He calls things like that carrocks, and this one is the Carrock because it is the only one near his home and he knows it well.”

One of the more recent source inquiries was done by Mark Hooker in Tolkien & Welsh, 2014. A brief account is available online from an interview:

In The Hobbit, Bilbo and the Dwarves pass The Carrock. The word carrock is strange enough that Bilbo has to ask what it means. Gandalf explains to Bilbo that carrock is the word that Beorn uses for what appears to be a common topographical feature, but Beorn considers this particular one The Carrock “because it is the only one near his home and he knows it well”.

The Welsh word carreg (stone, rock, escarpment ) matches Tolkien’s gloss for carrock, and his description sounds very much like Castell Carreg Cennen, located among the foothills of the Carmarthenshire Black Mountains, near Llandeilo. A reviewer of Tolkien and Welsh on Amazon said that he was “hoping to see mention of Carrickfergus (Carraig Fhearghais )—the rock of Fergus (Fergus being Fergus Mór mac Eirc), but this is purely because [he] lived there for a time.” Castell Carreg Cennen, and it has a lot of things about it that fit Tolkien’s description of The Carrock.


Other websites such as The Tolkien Gateway and The Encyclopedia of Arda roughly agree. And so do a fair number of other publications such as The Ring of Words and The Road to Middle-earth.

They all more or less limit the depth in history to a Celtic/Old English ‘carr’ as the fundamental root from which the Carrock stemmed.

But I find most of that analysis exceedingly strange!

Really, Beorn - a man whose name is clearly not Celtic, nor one immediately linked to speaking Old English - titled his great rock with such etymological roots?

So I personally find it hardly believable Tolkien decided that a ‘man’ who lived east of the Misty Mountains, which were characterized (in part) as the Alps, would name the huge stone by employing a combined mixture of a Celtic (or Old English) and modern English word (Carr & Rock)?

‘Rock - Rock’ - does that make sense to you folk?


..... more on the way ....

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Makes sense. I find Mark Hooker's etymological parables can go either way - sometimes they add up, and sometimes they don''t.

“He called it the Carrock, because carrock is his word for it. He calls things like that carrocks, and this one is the Carrock because it is the only one near his home and he knows it well.”

So what are things like that? Check out the map of Middle-earth. There are quite a few islands in the middle of this river, all the way down to known landmarks in the south. Are they all carrocks?

[Priya]

In order to advance our understanding of the makeup/philosophy behind Tolkien’s invention of the word ‘Carrock’ - the first logical thing we must do is try and determine the likely real-world language from which it was derived. That will perhaps allow us to figure out if/how it was mutated/manipulated (normalized) by the Professor himself to arrive at its final form. So was its origin Gaelic or Anglo-Saxon or perhaps Icelandic or .... etc. etc?

Before I dive too deep into looking into Tolkien’s language source for ‘Carrock’, some related circumstantial evidence is worth pondering on. Especially ‘newish’ words arising in our introduction to a sector of Middle-earth just east of the Misty Mountains. It’s worth taking a quick look at the external languages used in the construction of ‘Beorn’, ‘Warg’ and ‘Mirkwood’. For that ought to help point us in the right direction.

==========

Beorn: If we investigate sources for ‘Beorn’ it becomes quite apparent a decent match exists to the word in both Old English and Old Norse:

Beorn is an Old English word, which originally meant "bear" and in a heroic sense "man". It also means "warrior", "hero", "man of valour" (or poetic "man") in Old English and is cognate to Old Norse björn ("bear"). - Tolkien Gateway (my underlined emphasis)

Additionally, a pertinent fact is that Tolkien ‘lifted’ the picture of Beorn’s Hall in The Hobbit from his colleague E.V. Gordon’s 1928 publication: Introduction to Old Norse - in which it is called a Norse hall (my underlined emphasis)

Warg: The word Warg used in The Hobbit and the L.R. for an evil breed of (demonic) wolves is not supposed to be A-S specifically, and is given prim. Germanic form as representing the noun common to the Northmen of these creatures. - Letter #297 (my underlined emphasis)

In a letter to Gene Wolfe in 1966 Tolkien further elucidated:

Warg is simple. It is an old word for wolf, which also had the sense of an outlaw or hunted criminal. This is its usual sense in surviving texts.* I adopted the word, which had a good sound for the meaning, as a name for this particular brand of demonic wolf in the story.

*O.E. wearg O. High German warg-- O. Norse varg-r (also = "wolf", espec. of legendary kind): (my underlined emphasis)

Mirkwood: A name borrowed from ancient Germanic geography and legend, chiefly preserved in Old Norse myrkviðr ... Mirkwood is now used to represent Old Norse myrkviðr.— Nomenclature of TLotR (my underlined emphasis)

=======

So what we are seeing are primarily Germanic/Norse influences. Most prevalent/dominant is Old Norse - a North Germanic and Scandinavian language. Thus logically, no one should be surprised if Old Norse (a language Tolkien studied as an undergraduate and attained high competency in), was that used by northmen such as Beorn and the Beornings; especially for specific terms (i.e. Carrock). Indeed, Tolkien told us so when discussing his assigned dwarf-names:

“All the dwarf-names in this tale are Norse, as representing a northern language of Men” - Nomenclature of TLotR (my underlined emphasis)

Given all of that information, and having suitably digested it - surely Old Norse is where scrutiny should be directed?

———

Lastly for this post, in tandem to homing in on and now seriously considering ‘Carrock’ as stemming from Old Norse - we mustn’t forget it’s ‘sister’ river-islet of the Great River: the ‘Tindrock’:

“Tindrock. Common speech name (not a translation) of Tol Brandir, the steep inaccessible island of towering rock at the head of the falls of Rauros. Though originally Common Speech, the name was given long before the time of the tale, and contains the old word tind 'spike', which if it had survived would have rhymed with find. But it now appears as tine 'prong', with loss of d. The Old Norse equivalent was tindr, ...”. - Nomenclature of TLotR (my underlined emphasis)

From Tolkien’s explanation, in his mythology we can safely conclude ‘Tindrock’ had an ‘exterior’ rooting in Old Norse and literally meant ‘towering rock’ or ‘spiky rock’.

Surely then it’s reasonable to abandon a vast amount of existing etymological analysis where ‘Carrock’ has been thought of by the academic community to primarily stem from ‘Carr’, and literally translate across in English to ‘rock rock’? As with ‘Tindrock’, surely Tolkien must have constructed ‘Carrock’ to mean ‘something rock’? But what is that ‘something’?



Chrysophylax Dives - thanks for taking interest and participating. Yes, it seems natural/obvious to theorize Beorn’s Carrock was so-named because of its unusual geographical quality - i.e. it being an island or perhaps big rock located in the middle of a river. However, I’m not convinced that all such eyots were other carrocks in Tolkien’s mind. My proposal is altogether different and will follow shortly ....

[Chrysophylax Dives]

In order to advance our understanding of the makeup/philosophy behind Tolkien’s invention of the word ‘Carrock’ - the first logical thing we must do is try and determine the likely real-world language from which it was derived.

Given all of that information, and having suitably digested it - surely Old Norse is where scrutiny should be directed?

———

Lastly for this post, in tandem to homing in on and now seriously considering ‘Carrock’ as stemming from Old Norse - we mustn’t forget it’s ‘sister’ river-islet of the Great River: the ‘Tindrock’:

“Tindrock. Common speech name (not a translation) of Tol Brandir, the steep inaccessible island of towering rock at the head of the falls of Rauros. Though originally Common Speech, the name was given long before the time of the tale, and contains the old word tind 'spike', which if it had survived would have rhymed with find. But it now appears as tine 'prong', with loss of d. The Old Norse equivalent was tindr, ...”. - Nomenclature of TLotR (my underlined emphasis)

From Tolkien’s explanation, in his mythology we can safely conclude ‘Tindrock’ had an ‘exterior’ rooting in Old Norse and literally meant ‘towering rock’ or ‘spiky rock’.

Surely then it’s reasonable to abandon a vast amount of existing etymological analysis where ‘Carrock’ has been thought of by the academic community to primarily stem from ‘Carr’, and literally translate across in English to ‘rock rock’? As with ‘Tindrock’, surely Tolkien must have constructed ‘Carrock’ to mean ‘something rock’? But what is that ‘something’?


Chrysophylax Dives - thanks for taking interest and participating. Yes, it seems natural/obvious to theorize Beorn’s Carrock was so-named because of its unusual geographical quality - i.e. it being an island or perhaps big rock located in the middle of a river. However, I’m not convinced that all such eyots were other carrocks in Tolkien’s mind. My proposal is altogether different and will follow shortly ....

Priya, this is really excellent stuff! Thank you for posting it. I am completely convinced that Norse and not Celtic is the real-world language to be thinking in here.

Pondering the map of the Anduin as it comes to be as LotR is written and the great river is extended down to give the south of Middle-earth, I agree intuitively that not all the eyots are 'carrocks'. But some are surely related, and the most notable would surely be: "Tol Brandir, the steep inaccessible island of towering rock at the head of the falls of Rauros".

So Tindrock is a really acute catch! You appear to be on to something. I look forward to reading more.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

By the way @Priya, did you post on the old plaza around 2014 as Balfrog by any chance?

[Priya]

If, indeed, Old Norse is the source language for Tolkien’s etymological construction of ‘Carrock’, then in our quest - it would be sensible to narrow the range from the many thousands of candidates in its known vocabulary.

One thing to keep in mind is ‘believability’. Simply plucking a word from an Old Norse lexicon will not do. Even it matches closely or exactly; it still isn’t good enough. What we also need - is for it to possess a reasonably strong connection to Tolkien’s ‘Carrock’. The Professor, I am absolutely sure, would have had his reason(s) for such naming. And it’s up to us to figure it (or them) out. On that matter, I think we can divide the search for his source word(s) into two categories. Those being a reason based upon either (a) something internal to The Hobbit story, or (b) a personal experience external to the tale.

(a) For the former, we really just have the following (from Beorn’s point of view) when it comes to the Carrock’s description:

(i) It was a flat-topped hill.
(ii) It was made of rock.
(iii) It lay in the middle of a river.
(iv) It forced the river to loop about it.
(v) Beorn in bear-form frequented it.
(vi) It was Beorn’s lookout post.

(b) For the latter, of course, I have made the contention ‘Carrock’ was based on Lorelei Rock of the Rhine.

Now, although I have provided a single picture of the renowned German monolith, it is worth acknowledging that the year and season of the photo is unknown. I doubt very much that Lorelei rock, itself, has changed much over millennia - but I do acknowledge that seasonally, its surface look might vary.

We know Tolkien journeyed down the River Rhine in the summer of 1911, when any vegetation present was probably green and lush. So, to that end - I have provided a picture below, which depicts a vista, more likely to have been seen than the earlier, rather stark photo.





... to be continued

Hi Chrysophylax Dives

Identity? See my July 06, 2022 post in thread: “Tolkien’s Picture of a Balrog - A Winged One”
If you want to know more about me - you could always purchase my book: “Breaking the Tolkien Code” available at a well-known retailer beginning with “A”!

Nearly missed “acute” rock! Ha Ha - I get your point!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Hi Chrysophylax Dives

Identity? See my July 06, 2022 post in thread: “Tolkien’s Picture of a Balrog - A Winged One”
If you want to know more about me - you could always purchase my book: “Breaking the Tolkien Code” available at a well-known retailer beginning with “A”!

Hi Priya, looking forward to reading more. In the meanwhile, thanks for the confirmation. This from 'Peeling the Onion' on the old plaza.

Balfrog 15/Dec/2014, 03:59 AM

There has been a startling development on our enigmatic friend: Tom Bombadil. A new book called “Breaking The Tolkien Code” exposes apparently the greatest of secrets – seven hidden puzzles within TLotR.

Oddly enough, your old post (#675) comes two posts after mine (username: Smials). Ships that pass in the night. :)

[Priya]

In a search for a Norse word matching ‘Carrock’ - it is logical to split Beorn’s offering into two parts. For it is reasonably clear that the word is of two-part construction. A bit like Tindrock was rooted to ‘Tindr’ & ‘rock’ or ‘Tindr’ & ‘ock’. So either ‘Carrock’ was formed from ‘Carr’ & ‘rock’ or ‘Carr’ & ‘ock’. What I will focus on right now is ‘Carr’ - the first part of its duo-syllabic makeup.

Now, as I have already said, we must not select a word from the Norse lexicon simply because it might be a close or even exact match. There has to be a valid connection. The dictionaries I’ve consulted are ones that Tolkien definitely knew (although I’m pretty sure he had multiple other sources):

Reference (a): An Icelandic-English Dictionary, Richard Cleasby and Gudbrand Vigfusson, Oxford, 1874.
(Used by Tolkien in Walter Haigh’s 1928 Huddersfield Dialect Dictionary)


Reference (b): A Concise Dictionary of Old Icelandic, Geir T. T. Zoega, 1910
(Used by Tolkien per Tolkien's Work on the Oxford English Dictionary: Some New Evidence From Quotation Slips, Rachel A. Fletcher, 2020)

From these dictionaries, I have selected:

KJARR

From ref. (a): KJARR, n., pl. kjörr; [Dan. kjær; Ivar Aasen kjerr and kjorr]:
—copsewood, brushwood; (my underlined emphasis)


From ref. (b): kjarr (pl. kjörr), n. copsewood, brush-wood, thicket. (my underlined emphasis)

And though I’ve no qualification in phonetics, Kjarr (in closely related Icelandic) can be pronounced as ‘Carr’. From the Internet (admittedly not the best source, https://forum.wordreference.com/threads ... n.2923294/ :

kj can be pronounced [ch]/[c] (aspirated/unaspirated palatal stop)


In reviewing the definition of ‘brushwood’ in the OED (a complete set which Tolkien was gifted after his spell at the NED):

Brushwood 2. small growing trees and shrubs; thicket underwood


‘So Carrock’ in my opinion - reflected a ‘brushwood rock’. And all of that stemmed from a 1911 voyage (see photo in my previous post). This is what Beorn saw (via Tolkien) - an object in its simplest form, and not its positioning. A rock that was not bare, but instead covered in small trees and shrubbery!


.... more evidence to come.

[Priya]

Now in Old Norse - for all intents and purposes the letter ‘C’ does not exist. It is ‘K’ that is used in its stead. Thus, it’s sensible (in the search for Tolkien’s Carrock source) to start off with words beginning with the letter ‘K’.

It would also be logical to first look at ‘Karr’; which is a word that certainly exists as well as being a name that Tolkien knew of. Indeed Karr is the name of a barrow-wight in the tale: Grettis Saga. But, from what I can discern, in that story there exists no reasonable connection to our Lorelei Rock. Nor do any of the definitions of Karr in the two referenced dictionaries have any decent linkage:

In An Icelandic-English Dictionary, Richard Cleasby and Gudbrand Vigfusson, Oxford, 1874.


kar
or Karr, n. the mucus or slime on new-born calves and lambs: metaph., kar er á kampi vorum, kystu mær ef þú lystir, a ditty in a ghost story



However, adding considerable strength, to my choice of ‘kjarr’ is Tolkien’s definite knowledge and employment of the word. From the Glossary of the Tolkien/Gordon edition of Sir Gawain & The Green Knight, 1925:

ker(re), n. Thicket on marshy ground; ... [ON. kjarr, ...]

And also from W. Haigh’s 1928 Huddersfield Dialect Dictionary:

kar “marsh, pond,” from kjarr, ''marshy grove, pond''


These are all citations which occur in a time period before the January 1929 known written instigation of The Hobbit. Clearly when inquiring on ‘kjarr’, Tolkien would have become aware of another stated ON dictionary definition - namely: ‘brushwood’.

......

Moving on to investigate the second half of ‘Carrock’ ‘rock’ or ‘ock’ - I’m not going to spend too much time on this. I believe it stems from:

Hraukr

Which is Old Norse for: “lone high rock”. (In one of the known dialects of ON - Gutnish)
It too is pronounced with a silent letter - i.e. ‘h’.


So there we have it! In summary, my (educated) guess is that Tolkien’s ‘Carrock’ was sourced and combined from the Old Norse words ‘kjarr’ and ‘hraukr’ to mean:

Lone high brushwood rock

This two-part fusion was anglicized/modernized for The Hobbit tale - in, let’s say, a more agreeable form of English for the young reader. A bit like:

Vargr became Warg, Bjorn became Beorn & Mirkiwidu became Mirkwood.

Of course, I’m sure Tolkien would have argued that Bilbo was the conduit for the word arriving in societies west of the Misty Mountains and then into our world - where it phonetically mutated into Celtic, Gaelic, etc. to become eventually written as close variants of ‘Carrock’.



..... more to come

[Priya]

One of the curious features about Lorelei Rock is that it possesses a distinct echo.
Indeed it is etymological rooted name is thought not to be based upon the more modern legend of the siren named Lorelei - but upon ‘lorren/lurren/lureln’ a Germanic word for ‘caterwauling or murmuring’.

Before Tolkien came up with ‘Carrock’, as John Garth points out in Tolkien’s World, he toyed with:

“Lamrock, perhaps an Elvish-English hybrid for 'echo-rock'.”

Then perhaps Garth has uncovered a clue pointing to Lorelei Rock indeed being an external source of Tolkien’s Carrock!

Another not unreasonable pointer, is that ‘Lorelei’ is also thought of as having an etymological meaning relating to ‘Lurking Rock’ - by combining the German verb lauern ('to lurk, lie in wait') with a Celtic ‘ley’ ending (meaning ‘rock’). So Tolkien, if he had researched this and come up with the same conclusion, could well have made such a connection for The Hobbit tale and his Carrock - possibly as a trace-remnant of a nearly forgotten mythical past; a place where Beorn occasionally ‘lurked’ in his watch on the Misty Mountains.

“I once saw him sitting all alone on the top of the Carrock at night watching the moon sinking towards the Misty Mountains, and I heard him growl ...”. - The Hobbit, Queer Lodgings

Just as intriguing at the ‘echo’ and ‘lurking’ linkages, is an old Germanic story telling of dwarfs inhabiting caves in Lorelei Rock. This might ultimately have its source in the Nibelunglied legends.

Alberich drives in a band of Niblungs laden with gold and silver treasure

From Richard Wagner’s The Rhinegold and The Valkyrie - The Ring of the Niblung - illustrated by Arthur Rackham, 1910





More to come ...

[Priya]

Continuing on from my previous post - what we do know, is that the Lorelei/dwarf connection are folkloric tales

“This rock was popular in local folklore because of the numerous boating accidents that occurred there, which were attributed to such things as dwarfs living in the rocky caves that distracted boaters.” - Historical Dictionary of Romantic Art and Architecture - Page 174, Allison Lee Palmer, 2019

Hmm ... dwarves in The Hobbit spent time in a cave in the Carrock, did they not?

“There was a flat space on the top of the hill of stone and a well worn path with many steps leading down it to the river, ... There was a little cave (a wholesome one with a pebbly floor) at the foot of the steps ... Here the party gathered and discussed what was to be done.”

Just a coincidence? Or did Tolkien tie in Germanic dwarf folklore of the Lorelei edifice to the Carrock/dwarves of his fairytale?

......

Now it’s also interesting that Arthur Rackham’s illustrated edition of The Rhinegold and the Valkyrie was released about a year before Tolkien’s trip to Switzerland in 1911. Actually there is no evidence that Tolkien ever read it (even though he later indicated he knew of Rackham - see Carpenter’s Tolkien: A biography & Letters #202, #235). Nevertheless, I think that an intense fascination for The Story of Sigurd read from Andrew Lang’s Red Fairy Book would have made the Wagnerian release a natural draw; because of all fairy-stories Tolkien liked:

“... best of all the nameless North of Sigurd of the Volsungs, and the prince of all dragons.” - OFS

Wagner’s tale constitutes an offshoot/adaptation to the Norse saga but is based almost entirely upon the Old Norse versions of the Nibelung legend. Surely Tolkien would have been intrigued by the information. And it is around this time that he actively began studiously involving himself with Germanic historical literature. In a letter to his son Michael (then aged 21) Tolkien wrote:

“I have spent most of my life, since I was your age, studying Germanic matters ...” - Letter #45

Perhaps Tolkien’s love of the Sigurd fairytale drew him to recognize much action revolved around the River Rhine. Whether it was early on as a youth, or after his Rhine voyage - I can’t say for sure. But what is reasonably certain is that by the time of publication of The Hobbit, he knew that the treasure of the Nibelungs (or Niflungs - Germanic dwarfs) was at one stage, in Northern legends, sunk in the river Rhine.

From Tolkien’s The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun (thought to be composed in the 1930’s) and The Lay of Gudrun:

“Alone now living,
Lord of Niflungs,
the gold I hold
and guard for ever!
...
Rhine shall rule it,
...
In the deeps we cast it;


This of course echoes the title of Arthur Rackham’s illustrated Rhinegold and the Valkyrie:

Rhinegold ! Rhinegold !
Rhinegold pure I
Oh, if in the waves
There but shone still our treasure pure !


And much other lore:

“The Nibelungs hoard lies sunk in the Rhine.” - Teutonic Mythology, Vol 3 pg. 981

“Before departing, however, Gunnar was prevailed upon to bury secretly the great Niblung hoard in the Rhine, and he sank it in a deep hole in the bed of the river, the position of which was known to the royal brothers only, who took a solemn oath never to reveal it.” - Myths of the Norsemen, Burial of the Niblung Treasure, H.A Guerber, 1909



Don’t you a think it would have been thrilling to realize, either while on his 1911 voyage, or even afterwards - that he’d travelled along the Rhine - where ‘once upon a time’ lay legendary sunken dwarven treasure, from his favorite fairytale?

Even more intriguing:

“An old German poet named Marner, who lived about the middle of the thirteenth century says that the Nibelung Hort , or treasure, lies beneath the Lorelei rock.” - Richard Wagner's Ring of the Nibelung, an illustrated handbook - pg. 8, J.P.Jackson, 1882 (my underlined emphasis)

The Rhinegold and the Valkyrie - The Rhinemaidens lament the loss of the gold as, far above, the gods cross the rainbow bridge into Valhalla (Arthur Rackham - note the great rock in the background)

Is it all coincidence? Or did Tolkien relish including his own reading experiences as well as travels in The Hobbit beyond the Alpine adventure? I have a strong feeling there’s more to the makeup behind Tolkien’s Carrock than others have guessed!

[Priya]

Moving back to the stone-giants and the tale of The Giant Bramble-Buffer, certainly such creatures were to be avoided at all costs. As related in Knatchbull-Hugessen’s story, getting too close could end up as a case of:

“… out of the frying-pan into the fire.”

So is this where Tolkien got his inspiration for The Hobbit chapter title that shortly followed the Misty Mountains adventure? Yes, admittedly the phrase is a relatively common saying - but nevertheless, because much was extracted from the River Legends tale, my suspicion remains strong!

Anyhow, by the end of the story of Bramble-Buffer, the initially nasty giant becomes a reformed character. This echoes Gandalf’s words in The Hobbit, Chapter VI where it was conveyed that not all giants were bad, and his hope of finding:

“ ‘… a more or less decent giant …’ ”.

Yet more matches! Perhaps then, this is a reasonable point to bring up The Creatures of the Earth.



Now that document produced by Tolkien in the 1920’s is available in Parma Eldalamberon 14 - though that’s as rare as hen’s teeth! It basically is a series of lists which compile and separate the ‘beings’ existing on the planet for his mythology. The separation is a set of groupings listing various lifeforms in a sort of hierarchy that is reminiscent of the medieval ‘Great Chain of Being’.

'The Great Chain of Being', Rhetorica christiana, 1579

Giants are listed under a group titled ‘Earthlings’. Within that list are mountainous-giants, wood-giants, pygmies and dwarves. Without getting into detailed reasoning - I think that Earthlings were creatures conceived as ‘born’ on the planet, and who possessed Mother Nature gifted spirits but at death both body and spirit nebulously dispersed into Earth’s confines to remain there forever. Their ‘souls’ as such, were unable to reach a higher plane of existence, unlike mankind’s. Essentially, from a real-world mythology standpoint, these kinds of beings had Paracelsian roots.

All the creatures Tolkien designated as Earthlings, I presume, possessed moral choice - meaning they could be both good and bad. Now stone-giants would have fallen under the category of mountainous-giants, while perhaps wood-giants were a distant precursor to Ents. Even dwarves, at an early stage of the mythology’s development, were conceived of as soulless - returning to the earth upon death.

In The Later Annals of Beleriand (The Lost Road and Other Writings, pg. 129):

“… Dwarves have no spirit indwelling, … and they go back into the stone of the mountains of which they were made.”

As far as I know, The Creatures of the Earth was never superseded or updated. To me it remains relevant, to some extent, for The Hobbit. How much of Beowulf got into it - I can’t say for sure, but is probably worth discussing.

[Priya]

Moving on to The Lord of the Rings, I think it’s worth discussing the attempt by the Fellowship to cross over the Misty Mountains. Just like in The Hobbit, a storm was encountered.

Now for The Hobbit - Tolkien told us:

“The hobbit's (Bilbo's) journey from Rivendell to the other side of the Misty Mountains, including the glissade down the slithering stones into the pine woods, is based on my adventures in 1911 ...”.
- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter #306, Edited by H. Carpenter, 1981


However, of some curiosity is that Clyde Kilby, a direct aide and friend to Tolkien, quoted some extra information:

“The storms in The Hobbit and at Caradhras in the Ring are modeled after Tolkien’s experience in the Swiss Alps in 1911 …”.
– Tolkien As Scholar and Artist, C.S. Kilby, The Tolkien Journal, Volume 3 Issue 1, 15 January 1967 (my underlined emphasis)


It appears then, not only The Hobbit trek - but also the TLotR ascent up Caradhras was modeled on his Alpine adventure. Given a paired affinity, is it possible that stone-giants played a dual role? In The Hobbit - stone-giants were visually encountered, but in TLotR I think we ought to contemplate whether the expedition was ultimately foiled by an unseen stone-giant (or more than one).

Perhaps this has been considered before? In any case - any thoughts?

The Mountain-giant Bramble-Buffer, River Legends, 1875

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Hello Priya! Sorry I haven't been here in a few months! To the question I came across, giants.. yes in my youth I visited with my family a themepark in Germany about giant houses and furniture. And I believe in some folktales as well. I have a chunk to read what you have posted since, but I get later back to it. Maybe in a different post.

[Priya]

Hi Aiks - Happy reading ... there’s quite a bit to get through!

========

So, as to my last post - I hope folk interested in this subject have had time to consider the possibility of a stone-giant (or more than one) causing the route up Caradhras to be abandoned by the Fellowship. Those “shrill cries, and wild howls of laughter” audible to all are never pinpointed. Nevertheless if it wasn’t the wind, as Boromir believes, it would be reasonable to assume they belong to some sort of tangible being; something with vocal chords!

What sort of creatures do we definitely know of, that dwell on slopes of the Misty Mountains, and aren’t afraid of being heard?

“… the stone-giants were out, … They could hear the giants guffawing and shouting all over the mountainsides. …”.
- The Hobbit, Chapter IV:

Shouldn’t we chose an entity known to inhabit such a region of Middle-earth?

Or should a preference be given to an unknown type? A spiritual manifestation of the mountain - as some have speculated? Or even an influence of the Balrog far beneath it?

The origin of the stones “whistling over their heads, or crashing on the path beside them” could have perhaps been a result of a magical spell, or the wrath of a vigilant unspecified spiritual entity - but isn’t it more likely that they were physically cast?

What sort of creature inhabiting cold desolate heights could possibly have cast stones at the Company?

The elusive and scarce-mentioned snow-troll? Or perhaps a being, identified in The Hobbit, known to enjoy flinging stones in upper reaches of the same mountainous range!

“… the stone-giants were out, and were hurling rocks at one another for a game ...”.
- The Hobbit, Chapter IV:

The setting of the scene is blizzard conditions - so whoever or whatever it was remained hidden from the Company. But it’s obvious that a creature acclimated to such conditions and perfectly at home in such an environment would have a distinct advantage, and might well prefer to stay unseen. Especially one which disliked outsiders. Not far from the Misty Mountains, according to legends, stone-giants:

“... in ‘ancient days’ had built the White Mountains as a wall to keep Men out of their land by the Sea.”
Draft of Nomenclature of TLotR

I think Aragorn suspects the true source of trouble, but is reluctant to let out too much. I have a feeling that he didn’t want to scare others not in the know:

“ ‘I do call it the wind,’ ...”. - TLotR, The Ring goes South

And Gandalf said little to enlighten us - preferring to give up instead:

“ ‘It is no good going on. ...’ ”. - TLotR, The Ring goes South

It was going to be quite a feat to get everybody past a stone-giant unscathed. There was probably more to come of the ‘great’ boulders which “rolled down from hidden heights above them”.

And even though, to some, it is implied that the being, whatever it was, might not be anthropomorphic - that is not necessarily true:

“There are many evil and unfriendly things in this world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own.” - TLotR, The Ring goes South

Even a hostile stone-giant might have hatred for elves, dwarves, men, orcs etc. - all creatures that walk on two legs. A ‘renegade’ truly evil stone-giant might not even desire the two-legged company of others of his kind!

Comments anyone ????

[Priya]

Remaining undetected yet causing mischief seems to be a trait of Knatchbull-Hugessen’s mountain-giants in River Legends.


“In the case of old Bramble-Buffer ... the spirit of mischief arose ... he began to blow violently down upon the sea ... The poor mariners, who were taken totally unawares by the extraordinary suddenness of the storm ... Indeed, more than one vessel was lost ... because of this mad freak of the mischievous old giant. ...”.

“But the best of the joke in this case was that the poor mortals had no idea whatever of the cause of the disaster which had so unexpectedly befallen them, ...”.


More to the point - avalanches are often caused by them according to the tale of The Giant Bramble-Buffer. Most significantly for us, the perpetrator isn’t identifiable:

“... they took a fancy to snowball each other, which the survivors of them still practise, especially in some parts of Switzerland, where the avalanche, which occasionally overwhelms the unhappy traveller, although mistakenly attributed to natural causes, is in reality nothing more than the fall of a larger snowball than usual, hurled by the mighty arm of one of those mountain giants.”

So in the retreat back down Caradhras in the TLotR, the final fall of “stones and slithering snow” is perhaps an allusive referral and tie-in to the mythological avalanche caused by a giant’s throwing of a snowball as Knatchbull-Hugessen described above.

Since, as I have perceived, so much River Legends stuff was used for The Hobbit - I think there would have been a natural impulse to try and better crosslink the earlier children’s tale to The Lord of the Rings. Because with Tolkien, consistency was always a driving factor.

Also desirable, I believe, was the making of a mythological tale which possessed elements of our world’s fairy-stories. For in them lay a last echo of a time long ago: a ‘real’ piece of ‘once upon a time’. So it’s curious that the name ‘Caradhras’ (one of three peaks below which Khazad-dûm lay), translates across from Sindarin as ‘Red horn’ which bears a fractured echo to the fairy tale: The Red Etin – about a cruel three-headed giant, and his horned monsters (see The Blue Fairy Book* by Andrew Lang).

Well, I can’t say for sure - but it seems to me that the collated evidence points to a Stone-giant (or more than one) as the culprit causing mayhem on the slopes of Caradhras. Has anybody got a better explanation or theory?




* Certainly Tolkien was familiar with all of Lang’s colored fairy books. In his OFS paper - he quoted several stories from The Blue Fairy Book. And one only needs to read Mark Hooker’s article Fractured Fairy Tales from Middle-earth in A Tolkien Mathomium to see how another researcher acknowledges Tolkien’s art of embedding fragments of our world’s classic fairy tales into TLotR.

[Silky Gooseness]

I like the thought about the passage through Caradhras being made impossible through giant activity: but would not Gandalf, whose powers were frequently in persuasion, and who was quite determined on at least trying this course, have tried to negotiate first? He did say there were more or less decent giants, after all, and without meeting this one it wouldn’t be possible to tell if this one could be convinced or not. Or at least try and get hold of a nicer giant who might be influential over the problematic one?

[Priya]

Hello Silky Gooseness

Those are interesting thoughts.

But don’t you think the unknown entity through malicious actions had already confirmed it was hostile. If it truly was a stone-giant might Gandalf have concluded it wasn’t the “decent” sort?

Unfortunately, I don’t think time was on the Fellowship’s side. To track down a helpful stone-giant might have considerably side-tracked the quest, possibly leaving them all even more vulnerable.

[Priya]

Whether Tolkien decided his mythological featuring of three gigantic peaks of the Misty Mountains became ‘corrupted’ and eventually ‘dwindled’ into the tale of the Red Etin of our times - I cannot prove for sure. But ‘Etin’ is Scottish archaic variant of what is now the English word ‘giant’. Traceable etymological roots of ‘etin’ back to Middle-English exist with ‘eotinde’. From the OED:

c1275 (?a1200)
Hit hatte þere Eotinde Ring.
 Laȝamon, Brut (Caligula MS.) (1978) l. 8622

And of course, most scholarly types, know that Tolkien knew of an even older source etymology with ‘enta’:

“… I should say that Ents are composed of philology, literature, and life. They owe their name to the eald enta geweorc of Anglo-Saxon, and their connexion with stone.”
- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #163 - 7 June 1955, Edited by H. Carpenter, 1981 

That is why I feel the cognate ‘etin’ in the tale of the Red Etin in Andrew Lang’s Blue Fairy Book would have drawn a philologist’s attention.

—————

So ‘stone’ had a connection to ‘giant’!

But not only that, the ‘stone’ in stone-giant drew Tolkien’s eye far further back than The Hobbit. A philologically rooted basis was remembered from childhood times. Tolkien recalled that:

“When I was about 8 years old I read in a small book (professedly for the young) that nothing of the language of primitive peoples (before the Celts or Germanic invaders) is now known , except perhaps ond = ‘stone’ (+ one other now forgotten).”
- The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter #324: 4-5 June 1971, Edited by H. Carpenter, 1981 

Much effort and energy has been expended by Tolkien enthusiasts in a search got the “small book (professedly for the young)”. The hunt has simmered away in the background. Because it’s improbable that the book referred to was John Rhys’s Celtic Britain as proposed by Carl Hostetter and Patrick Wynne in Stone Towers per Mythlore Vol. 19, No. 4, Fall 10-15-1993. Such an academic tome is less likely to have been Tolkien’s source than Bertram Windle’s Life in Early Britain, 1897.

So the culmination of my own research concludes that Tolkien in his youth read Bertram Windle’s work. This advertised “little book”, tailored to the young, provided:

“… a brief but clear account of the different races which inhabited this country in prehistoric and early historic times, …”.

- Life in Early Britain, Preface – pg. vii, B. Windle, 1897   (my emphasis)

The introductory work covers a number of historical periods from the Paleolithic all the way to Anglo-Saxon times. It is an easy read and is crammed with diagrams and pictures, and is certainly much more amenable to children of Tolkien’s then age group. Windle provides the same information from Rhys’s Celtic Britain regarding primitive language:

“Professor Rhys mentions that Cormac ‘records two of the Ivernian* words known to him, namely fern, anything good, and ond a stone.’ ”. 
–
- Life in Early Britain, Chapter III – pg. 64, B. Windle, 1897

At age 8, Tolkien attended King Edward’s Grammar School from whose library Windle’s book was possibly loaned. A couple of years later (though it might have been earlier, as records are scant) the Tolkien boys through their mother became acquainted with the priest Father Francis Morgan, who was eventually to become a guardian. Morgan was a member of the Birmingham Oratory under Cardinal Newman** who was hugely influential in converting Bertram Windle (a then fellow Birmingham resident) from an Anglican to a Catholic. A young*** Tolkien might have encountered a donated copy of Windle’s book at the Oratory Library, or perhaps even Father Morgan had one in his personal collection. John Garth on pg. 196 of Tolkien’s Worlds: The Places That Inspired the Writer’s Imagination, concludes of Life in Early Britain: “Tolkien surely knew his work”, but no specifics are given.

Life in Early Britain is available on the Internet Archive website. But I want to examine the theme of ‘stone’ from a new angle. That being its association to the those lesser gigantic stone beings: the stone-trolls of The Hobbit. These were creatures that have been philologically linked to the Middle English word ‘etayn’. However Tolkien’s Modern English alliterative verse translation of his 1925 Sir Gawain and the Green Knight study (co-edited with E.V. Gordon) did not read across ‘etayn’ as ‘giant’. But instead, Tolkien proposed ‘troll’ (see lines 140 & 723).

In any case, the more curious question for me is why the heck did Tolkien name the trolls Bert, William and Tom?

An oddity which has bugged many folk has remained a mystery for over 80 years, deserves a believable answer!

But for that I will open a new thread.




* Pre-Celtic Irish people from the Neolithic Age

** The Internet Archive.org website displays Windle’s copy (inscribed Ex Libris Bertram. C.A Windle) of Eight Lectures on the Position of Catholics in England, 1890 by Cardinal Newman.

*** One must remember that “about 8” is imprecise – as would be expected in a recollection of memories some 70 years later.