Do Orcs cry?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Even a residual tear? And if so, what prompts Orc tears?

[The Good Hunter]

I could give this a serious analysis and response but I have a feeling you're being a bit facetious. That being said, I do think orcs can cry. There's nothing to suggest they can't, unless I've missed something.

[Drífa]

Fear, most likely. They wail a lot when they are in danger. A typical reaction. No poetic mention of tears have I been able to find.

On they rode, the king and his companions. Captains and champions fell or fled before them. Neither orc nor man withstood them. Their backs were to the swords and spears of the Riders and their faces to the valley. They cried and wailed, for fear and great wonder had come upon them with the rising of the day. TROTK

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I could give this a serious analysis and response but I have a feeling you're being a bit facetious. That being said, I do think orcs can cry. There's nothing to suggest they can't, unless I've missed something.

Your feeling is, in this case, not warranted. I see why you might think so, for I indeed posted the question on reading you. I genuinely wondered what that means about the Orc, and if that fits with my (vague) idea of Orcs. So I would appreciate serious analysis and response, if you can be bothered. (Also, I am enjoying the story.)

[The Good Hunter]

In that case, @Chrysophylax Dives, my apologies. Since you've buttered me up enough, I will try and go into my thoughts. While I can't think of a specific time any orc actually cried. @Drifa's quote is good, but I think it refers more to crying as shouting rather than weeping. However, there is nothing spoken about them that would suggest they cannot or do not weep.

While it's debated on what they were created/tortured from, elves or men, we know both species wept a great deal. Why can't orcs do the same? They have emotions just as elves and men do, I don't find it credible that they should only experience rage, hate, and fear. Hell, they have a (albeit incredibly dark) sense of humor. Weeping based on sadness, fear, or happiness does not seem too far fetched to me.

In regard to the way I write my orc characters, I do think they have the full range of emotions and have all types of personalities. I will admit, the new character of Negru is delving (hahaha) into new territory for me. He's incredibly emotionally fragile because of the extreme isolation that's been foisted upon him. Crying, weeping, balling his eyes out, blubbering, and sniffling seems well within the story's limits. While the professor would hate it (much as he would probably hate the entirety of this site), I think it's important to show orcs are individuals, no culture is a monolith. Shagrat, Ugluk, et al were P.O.S. sure, but that doesn't mean each and every orc is.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Thank you for that @Dungeon Delver. Plenty more butter still in the jar.

I'm not doing a Lore argument here. I do have a sense that Tolkien's Orcs fade into incoherence because you cannot pick and choose your human qualities. I mean, if Orcs speak to one another, and as you observe even have some sense of humour, then I'm not sure one can draw a line. As you say, it is not credible that social beings experience only rage, hate, and fear. And I enjoy reading your story precisely becomes it seems to explore all this (cleverly, by holding up one isolated Orc who is deprived of needed society <-- butter). The tears struck me because it makes a bold statement about Orc emotion. I'm certainly not saying I found them incredible.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

I never explored a crying Orc or Uruk, not even with Utchuk. Though he can display human habits, I relate it more to intelligence and knowing how to melt in a crowd without suspicions. In size and shape he fits better among them. It depends on what kind of innerworld your orc has. What he or she must have. Orcs do answer to the problem of weight like all other creatures, except for the elves. Most we have, has been made up by fans, because there is little known on any cultures of the Orc kind. So what is not there, is free to add and explore, not?

Gateway shares on Orc culture:

"Orcs were pitiless and took pleasure in all kinds of cruel and wicked acts; they did evil deeds for their own amusement, purely for the sport of it. Their fractious and vicious natures made them unreliable servants – when outside their master's reach, Orcs would often disobey their commands or fight amongst themselves, to the detriment of their master's designs. In battle, Orcs fought with reckless ferocity and delighted in the slaughter and torture of their foes. However, many had a cowardly nature and were often regarded as inferior to the soldiers of Men, Elves, and Dwarves, though far more expendable. Orcs also proved themselves adept at taming and riding Wolves and Wargs, an ability harnessed by the Dark Lords for their armies.

The corruption inherent to Orc being made them virtually powerless to resist the domination of a greater will – at first, this was Morgoth's, later Sauron's. While under such domination, Orcs were reduced to an "ant-like life." This was most plainly seen under Sauron's tyranny, as he operated on a smaller scale than did Morgoth and his foes were far weaker than the Noldor of the Elder Days. The Orcish people thus cycled between periods of unity when they had a Dark Lord to unite them, and disunity when there was no Dark Lord.

After the War of Wrath, the Orcs were confused and dismayed without Morgoth, and were easily scattered by their enemies. In the millennia after his defeat and banishment from Arda, they were without a leader and degenerated into small, quarrelsome tribes hiding in wild places, such as the Misty Mountains and the Mountains of Angmar. In this state, Orcs remained a threat to travelers and isolated settlements, and when united could pose a regional threat, but without a unifying will they could never become the menace they were under a Dark Lord.

Even when united, the Orcs were consumed with petty rivalries and hatreds. Each time he rose as Dark Lord, Sauron had to contend with many tribes of "wild" Orcs who spoke many tongues and had become accustomed to independence. To meld these disparate, mutually despised groups into a coherent force and prevent them from slaying each other, Sauron had to keep their hatred focused on an outside enemy: the Men and Elves of the West. In this he was highly successful: the Orcs he pressed into his direct service in his trained armies were so completely dominated by his will that they would die for him on command without hesitation."

And on behaviour:

"Orcs of the mountains would often not venture very far from their homes unless they had to look for new homes, went to war or went on raids to get food or slaves. In such raids they would often obtain the help of Wargs with whom they then shared the plunder. Orcs made no works of beauty, but created many clever things. When they took the trouble they were capable at tunneling and mining, surpassed only by the most skilled Dwarves, but they were usually dirty and untidy. Orcs were unafraid of fire, but shunned water and did not willingly go near the sea except in great need."

There is also this page on Orc origins on Gateway, interesting to read perhaps?
Something on Eastern Orcs, a masterless and unruly culture for a very long time.

Frost: In regard what the professor would have liked? Very likely a very little, I am afraid. I asked myself if he would have understood, forums like these as they a very strange phenomenon in the early seventies, not existing yet, and never heard in his lifetime.

[The Good Hunter]

@Chrysophylax Dives I think you're going down the same path I've gone down. Where do we draw the line between orcs and men and elves? As Aik said in her quote, Tolkien didn't really mean for the orcs to have much of a society outside the most rudimentary tribalism because their hatred is so strong. Now, Tolkien was a linguist not an anthropologist so I will forgive him here. I'm not an anthropologist either but I have done quite a bit of study in the field and find it all very fascinating. The orcs he describes would have died out within a few generations of the fall of Morgoth from infighting. We see this trope played out a lot in science fiction and fantasy, a race so hyperdeveloped toward violence, death, and destruction one has to wonder how they managed to exist at all (I'm particularly thinking of the Borg from Star Trek). I won't say Tolkien is wrong (especially about the creation of his own world) but I will say there are massive holes in it.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I think Tolkien did his linguistics in a very anthropological way. On another thread I've gone on about philosophers getting language wrong because they have an idea of a perfect model that ordinary language falls from, while Tolkien held (the more modern) conviction that language makes no sense when taken out of context, and that language is a way of doing things in the world. All that said, you are surely quite right that his imagination does not hold water when it comes to the Orcs, e.g. after Morgoth was vanished. Also, I think Tolkien wanted to have his cake and eat it, because in various letters he talks of humans as Orcs and in some way does think of them as human (maybe more human than Elves).

By the way, and to digress from the crying - which seems important in identifying 'the human' in the alien species of Middle-earth - there seems to be something of the 18th-century image of the 'barbarians' of the Steppe in the Orcs. Adam Smith, for example, describes these nomads as harmless most of the time because fighting amongst themselves, but when united under a great Khan, the very scourge of civilization, the locusts who destroy empires.

After the War of Wrath, the Orcs were confused and dismayed without Morgoth, and were easily scattered by their enemies. In the millennia after his defeat and banishment from Arda, they were without a leader and degenerated into small, quarrelsome tribes hiding in wild places, such as the Misty Mountains and the Mountains of Angmar. In this state, Orcs remained a threat to travelers and isolated settlements, and when united could pose a regional threat, but without a unifying will they could never become the menace they were under a Dark Lord.

Even when united, the Orcs were consumed with petty rivalries and hatreds. Each time he rose as Dark Lord, Sauron had to contend with many tribes of "wild" Orcs who spoke many tongues and had become accustomed to independence. To meld these disparate, mutually despised groups into a coherent force and prevent them from slaying each other, Sauron had to keep their hatred focused on an outside enemy: the Men and Elves of the West. In this he was highly successful: the Orcs he pressed into his direct service in his trained armies were so completely dominated by his will that they would die for him on command without hesitation."

Here is a version of the same image of the making of barbarian unity, but as narrated from inside. This from a history of the Saljūq Turks.

Ṭughril gave an arrow (tir used for casting lots) to his brother [Chaghri] and told him to break it. He [Chaghri] could not reject the request, heeded [the command] and broke the arrow. In this manner [Ṭughril handed] two [additional arrows and Chaghri] broke them jointly. Than he handed three [arrows] and [Chaghri] broke them with considerable difficulty. When the number [of the arrows] reached four it became impossible for him [Chaghri] to split the arrows. Ṭughril said: ‘‘This is exactly a parallel (or metaphor; mithl or mathal) to our manner. When we are apart every peon will be determined to break us. Yet if we are united, no man will defeat us. If disagreement comes between us we shall not conquer the world and our rivals will be stronger and kingship will slip from our hand. A verse: If two brothers help and protect the back of each other the stony hard mountain is in their fist.” (Ravandi, Rahat al-sudur, ed. Iqbal)

[The Good Hunter]

It occurred to me this morning, what if we considered Tolkien an unreliable narrator? The whole framing device for Lord of the Rings is Bilbo transcribing his adventures then Frodo's. Neither of them spent enough time among orcs outside of battle to understand their culture or its nuances. Similar to the way Western Europe has always seen and written "barbarian" cultures in the east, there's no objective lens through which we can gauge the orcs.

Random thoughts, might not end up being relevant.

[Arnyn]

I like where that could lead us, Frost. Even if Orcs were to be indeed everything Tolkien described them as - he might have been unreliable in the sense that he did not explore the race fully. And indeed left out a whole lot that could make them more sympathetic.

Humans and even Elves could be terrible to one another. Even if Orcs were 'more terrible more often', we might say, could we even imagine the most barbaric or savage tribe that does not have some kind of bonds between its members? Bonds of family or friendship or however else you would call it / what they might have called it? Why would orcs be immune to the sadness that besets any living animal when such bonds are tethered? Like Chrys says, they are still social beings. Why would their emotions be limited?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I think one has to separate Tolkien as the architect and the Hobbits as narrators. Everything that we read is from a Hobbit-perspective, so one may go to town on bias, prejudice, limited knowledge. So, now I am thinking it would be fun to go over the account of Pippin and Merry in the hands of the Orcs and observe how often the two Hobbits misinterpreted well-intentioned acts. After all, they were carried most of the way as far as I can remember, also given medicine and grub.

Tolkien as architect of his sub-created world is something else again. For my part, I take it that the Orcs are teased out from the lines of Beowulf, and so to confront Orcish identity we must look in the eye the Necromancy by which Orcs are begotten. But in general, Orcs are us in one Mirror as Elves are us in another, and so almost by definition their practices are taboo, they embody that which we hold most foul and unfitting - the unspeakable. And their sin is original - they are born into it. Because their birth is the real issue, no? Unlike Hobbits and the like, Orcs are spawned by a Necromancer. Misbegoten is the mark of an Orc.

It is deep, dark, and horrible stuff. But Tolkien points us to some of the most ancient, half-hidden and yet dangerously potent, roots of our own prejudices today. So it is worth coming to terms with the mark of Cain that seems inherited by the Orc.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

I have kept my Orcs mostly in line how Tolkien treated them in the tales and what among Gateway says. Created in his image by Lord Melkor they are embued with a hatred for everything created by the other Valar. Themselves they are a mockery for the Children of Iluvatar. So yeah I don't see them having affection more than their offspring mirror after their parents in cruelty they revel in. For independent Orcs or Uruks and not having been under dark influence for a long time. I imagine they have a tribal contruction where based on merits, the cunniest, strongest and most intelligent have a say what the social rules must be in Orc culture. There'll be strong food management in places as the cold north, where survival effort comes from working together. I think there will be quite a lot of parallels how Orc tribal cultures and Men tribal cultures operate in the tundra or desert environments. For lands where is plenty, there is little food management necessary. Orcs would have at least a clan culture of sorts to keep order in the lands south of the Ered Mithrin, in Eriador and Rhovanion. Tribal I am not certain about? A note: Nothing of these surmisings of mine were documented anywhere in the Legendarium. So it is all speculation.

[Arnyn]

We could also consider how most people cry at 'a normal frequency', some exceptions cry at the drop of a hat, and even more exceptionally some people never cry (except tears from wind or pain). And how some people only cry extremely rarely.

It could be inverted with orcs. The rule could be they never cry (other than because of wind, sand in their eyes or what have you, and physical pain that prompts the biological tears-response. The exception could be they cry extremely rarely, for other reasons. And even more exceptionally there might be an orc here and there that would be considered a crybaby by its peers (but would still cry less than the typical human).

[Chrysophylax Dives]

What prompted the OP was that, on reading @Dungeon Delver's story and thinking about Orcs crying, I started to think about humans crying - and was a bit mystified. I feel that crying is a hallmark of being human, it goes to the essence of what we are. But on reflection, I don't exactly understand what crying is about, and some googling did not help (all physiological explanations about release of endorphenes and so on).

I find it difficult to think about Orcs crying when I am not too sure what it is about with humans. How much cross-cultural variation is there in crying?

[The Good Hunter]

I tend to agree with @Arnyn here, while there are certainly cultures that hold disdain for crying (or any sort of emotion), I think it's more down to the individual. I grew up in the tough-guy Texas ranch country and men crying was absolutely looked down on. That being said I still cried from time to time, but usually in the privacy of my own room, far from anyone that might have overheard and belittled me for it. Nowadays, I don't cry as much, but the emotional resonance of crying is very much present.

Add to all this, humans are strange, we cry over anything and everything, joy, sadness, terror. I'm sure there have been anthropological and psychological studies into why humans cry and could answer the question in more depth (and confusing language) but I think it boils down to that.

How does that, then, relate to orcs? @Chrysophylax Dives you might be right to say crying is a hallmark of humanity so, in view of that, can/should orcs cry as an expression of emotion? My answer is still yes because they have emotions and often crying is a physiological response to emotion, though this discussion has forced me to wonder, what really could make an orc cry. The story you refer to is going to have to go into greater depths I think.