The hearts of the Dwarves

And of old it was not darksome, but full of light and splendour, as is still remembered in our songs.
Post Reply
Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
A thread for quotes that speak to the heart of the Dwarves.

The Caverns of Helm’s Deep
‘And, Legolas, when the torches are kindled and men walk on the sandy floors under the echoing domes, ah! then, Legolas, gems and crystals and veins of precious ore glint in the polished walls; and the light glows through folded marbles, shell-like, translucent as the living hands of Queen Galadriel. There are columns of white and saffron and dawnrose, Legolas, fluted and twisted into dreamlike forms; they spring up from many-coloured floors to meet the glistening pendants of the roof: wings, ropes, curtains fine as frozen clouds; spears, banners, pinnacles of suspended palaces! Still lakes mirror them: a glimmering world looks up from dark pools covered with clear glass; cities, such as the mind of Durin could scarce have imagined in his sleep, stretch on through avenues and pillared courts, on into the dark recesses where no light can come. And plink! a silver drop falls, and the round wrinkles in the glass make all the towers bend and waver like weeds and corals in a grotto of the sea. Then evening comes: they fade and twinkle out; the torches pass on into another chamber and another dream. There is chamber after chamber, Legolas; hall opening out of hall, dome after dome, stair beyond stair; and still the winding paths lead on into the mountains’ heart. Caves! The Caverns of Helm’s Deep! Happy was the chance that drove me there! It makes me weep to leave them.’
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
Image
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
A Hobbit perspective.

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning and by magic moving through him, a fierce and a jealous love, the desire of the hearts of dwarves.
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
I looked up dwarves in Welsh legend and came across the Coraniaid who are mentioned in the tale of Lludd and Llefelys, which is also the story of the red dragon, associated with a site called Dinas Emrys.

"After some time had passed, three oppressions came upon the isle of Britain, such that none of the islands had ever seen before. The first of these was the advent of a people called the Coraniaid; so great was their knowledge that there was no utterance over the face of the land—however low it was spoken— that, if the wind met it, they didn’t know. For that reason, one could do them no harm."

I'll add a Tolkien dwarf quote next.

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
I liked this bit when I reread LOTR.

"'Hear all ye Elves!’ she cried to those about her. ‘Let none say again that Dwarves are grasping and ungracious! Yet surely, Gimli son of Glóin, you desire something that I could give? Name it, I bid you! You shall not be the only guest without a gift.’
‘There is nothing, Lady Galadriel,’ said Gimli, bowing low and stammering. ‘Nothing, unless it might be – unless it is permitted to ask, nay, to name a single strand of your hair, which surpasses the gold of the earth as the stars surpass the gems of the mine. I do not ask for such a gift. But you commanded me to name my desire."

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
I haven't read it for a long time but there are dwarves in the Wizard of Brisingamen and I always liked the name Fenodyree, from the Manx legends, as used in the book. I'm pretty sure I used it for a character in some old scribbling somewhere.

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
VelvetineZone wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2024 12:12 pm I liked this bit when I reread LOTR.

"'Hear all ye Elves!’ she cried to those about her. ‘Let none say again that Dwarves are grasping and ungracious! Yet surely, Gimli son of Glóin, you desire something that I could give? Name it, I bid you! You shall not be the only guest without a gift.’
‘There is nothing, Lady Galadriel,’ said Gimli, bowing low and stammering. ‘Nothing, unless it might be – unless it is permitted to ask, nay, to name a single strand of your hair, which surpasses the gold of the earth as the stars surpass the gems of the mine. I do not ask for such a gift. But you commanded me to name my desire."
I do wonder about Gimli. He is also said to have crossed the Sea with Legolas at the end. Is he a normal Dwarf? Does his desire for this single strand of Elvish hair tell us about the hearts of the Dwarves, or only about the heart of one (to use the word as did Tolkien) queer Dwarf?
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
Good point. Is he representative or a quirky dwarf like Frodo and Sam are quirky hobbits.

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
Shouldn't have said "good point" as now you'll give me butter images.

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
:lol:
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
I imagine Narvi and other dwarves were 'quirky' too, eh? Galadriel knew the dwarves' worth. The end was near for the Eldar. Old grudges are forgotten, perhaps.
...Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed
to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to
the Elves. In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this
than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that
Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that
Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples
who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him.
She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander,
seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs. More-
over Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy
with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a
sympathy much greater than that found among many of the
Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel,
like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna
in Valinor. UT, History Of Galadriel And Celdborn
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
Also, Gimli was part of the Fellowship. He did play a part in the War of The Ring, right?
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
I love my axe.
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
Dwarves are very cool @Drifa.
And all their fantastic metallurgy.
The dwarves in The Hobbit are a pretty quirky bunch to be fair.
Oh dear now I'm distracted by thinking about the movie Thorin Oakenshield.

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
The whole dwarf and elves interaction thing in LOTR was very much full of people having their preconceptions challenged and changed, was quite interesting.

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
Omg! I'm not a roadrunner anymore. I'm a Learned Ent. Crazy times. Have I made it through the board's newcomer rituals now? 😆

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
VelvetineZone wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2024 12:23 pm Omg! I'm not a roadrunner anymore. I'm a Learned Ent. Crazy times. Have I made it through the board's newcomer rituals now? 😆
Sigh. And I am a tree. I wish I still had that dragon icon. When it vanished I became a Hobbit for a while, but the Hobbit icons are rubbish.

Yeah, I reckon you are almost an old-timer. Still not too hot on the rules of OOC and IC, but that took me 3 years to master.
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Learned Ent
Points: 325 
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2024 7:55 pm
Well I had to Google OOC. I couldn't find the meaning of IC. I'm not honestly the best at following rules, so I'm not too worried about OOC. I'm neutral on IC as I have no idea what I'm contravening there.
So sorry about the demise of your dragonity (that's the dragon version of humanity).

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
I will find my dragonity again one day...

On OOC and IC, yes, I recall googling them last January. IC = in character. Having learned the difference I have now introduced it into the Lore Post Office (usually both terms are absent in Lore, which seems to presume that Lorists have no character whatsoever).
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
Speaking of the hearts of the Dwarves... @Drifa, do you know the answer to my riddle and are not posting to give others a chance, or have you no idea?
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
This is from Return of the Shadow, and hence only a draft. However, there are certainly several lines in the finished works that echo the statement about Dwarves.
Only on the Road would travellers be found, Big People rarely in those days, Elves perhaps sometimes, most often Dwarves hurrying along on business, and with no help and few words to spare for strangers.
Basically, Dwarves are grumpy and not very friendly to non-Dwarves, right?
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
I think that can go both ways.
...There were, however, dwarves on the road in unusual numbers. The ancient East-West Road ran through the Shire to its end at the Grey Havens, and dwarves had always used it on their way to their mines in the Blue Mountains. They were the hobbits’ chief source of news from distant parts – if they wanted any: as a rule dwarves said little and hobbits asked no more. TFoTR, The Shadow Of The Past
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
'Maybe,' said Gimli, 'and I thank you for your words. True words doubtless; yet all such comfort is cold. Memory is not what the heart desires. That is only a mirror, be it clear as Kheled-zâram. Or so says the heart of Gimli the Dwarf. Elves may see things otherwise. Indeed I have heard that for them memory is more like to the waking world than to a dream. Not so for Dwarves. TFoTR, Farewll To Lórien
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
@Chrysophylax Dives - I am sure we are not immortal. But it would appear that we are not human either - 'breeds'?
Dwarves of different 'breeds' vary in their longevity. Durin's
race were originally long-lived (especially those named Durin),
but like most other peoples they had become less so during the
Third Age. Their average age (unless they met a violent death)
was about 250 years, which they seldom fell far short of, but
could occasionally far exceed (up to 300).17 A Dwarf of 300 was
about as rare and aged as a Man of 100.
Dwarves remained young - e.g. regarded as too tender for
really hard work or for fighting - until they were 30 or nearly
that (Dain II was very young in 2799 (32) and his slaying of
Azog was a great feat). After that they hardened and took on the
appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty
all Dwarves looked much alike in age, until they reached what
they regarded as old age, about 240. They then began to age and
wrinkle and go white quickly (baldness being unknown among
them), unless they were going to be long-lived, in which case the
process was delayed. Almost the only physical disorder they
suffered from (they were singularly immune from diseases such
as affected Men, and Halflings) was corpulence. If in prosper-
ous circumstances, many grew very fat at or before 200, and
could not do much (save eat) afterwards. Otherwise 'old age'
lasted not much more than ten years, and from say 40 or a little
before to near 240 (two hundred years) the capacity for toil
(and for fighting) of most Dwarves was equally great. The Peoples Of Middle-earth, The Making Of Appendix A
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
I have also read that the term, breed, was used for Hobbits occasionally.
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
Thank you for that @Drifa. The red dot for the notifcation was losing its novelty so I opened the thread.

I am suffering greviously from lack of sleep (a result of working on my book that means that while very, very tired when I shut my eyes all sorts of thoughts about Numenor and the like appear unwanted in my mind). So my attention is naturally caught by:

"Almost the only physical disorder they suffered from (they were singularly immune from diseases such as affected Men, and Halflings) was corpulence."

One of the things that has struck me these last months, as I step through all the Tolkien material that I am surveying, is how minute points of Lore, which would have exercised the finest minds of the plaza of old, are very often the product of a random bit in 'The Hobbit' that, when composed, was never imagined as dictating the nature of Middle-earth. In this case, this is surely all about accounting for poor fat Bombur, no?
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
I would say so. Bombur, I am sure, was prosperous at the time.

All these quotes from the HoME have guided how I perceive dwarves.

I remember reading about the Naugrim when I first purchased the HoME books. The part about their beards always stuck with me.
For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike;

I think their beards are like an extension of their physical selves, like a limb. I remember my sister asking me why I had a beard in an amateurish drawing I made—and I explained this to her about the beard. She understood but thought a female with a beard was distasteful. 'Ew', she said. I had never felt so; I imagine a female dwarf's beard is long and silky. Very attractive. Like any woman's hair. :smile:

Image
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
Drifa, this just goes to show what I have long known. You are the ideal, most perfect, Tolkien fan.
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
Well, thank you. However, I would not say perfect. Are we not all fans, no matter our roles? :smile:

The poor dwarves are always hard done by. First, in The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, by Tinwelin (Thingol). And then, in Appendix A, TROTK, by Fram. The only thing I can say about this is:
"The Nauglath are no thieves, 0 King, nor yet their friends". The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, THE NAUGLAFRING
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
I have the sense that Tolkien was down on the Dwarves until he wrote The Hobbit. After that, you gotta love the Dwarves. And because as a child I loved The Hobbit and was bored by The Silmarillion, I have none of this Elvish prejudice.

I guess you already know that Tolkien took the names of the Dwarves from the Völuspá of the Poetic Edda? But this thread is the right place to copy and paste the famous 'Catalogue of Dwarves', which includes the name Gandalf. In the earliest draft of The Hobbit, Gandalf is actually the name of the chief Dwarf, with the wizard named Bladorthin.

9. Then sought the gods | their assembly-seats,
The holy ones, | and council held,
To find who should raise | the race of dwarfs
Out of Brimir's blood | and the legs of Blain.

10. There was Motsognir | the mightiest made
Of all the dwarfs, | and Durin next;
Many a likeness | of men they made,
The dwarfs in the earth, | as Durin said.

11. Nyi and Nithi, | Northri and Suthri,
Austri and Vestri, | Althjof, Dvalin,
Nar and Nain, | Niping, Dain,
Bifur, Bofur, | Bombur, Nori,
An and Onar, | Ai, Mjothvitnir.

12. Vigg and Gandalf | Vindalf, Thrain,
Thekk and Thorin, | Thror, Vit and Lit,
Nyr and Nyrath,-- | now have I told--
Regin and Rathsvith-- | the list aright.

13. Fili, Kili, | Fundin, Nali,
Heptifili, | Hannar, Sviur,
Frar, Hornbori, | Fræg and Loni,
Aurvang, Jari, | Eikinskjaldi.

14. The race of the dwarfs | in Dvalin's throng
Down to Lofar | the list must I tell;
The rocks they left, | and through wet lands
They sought a home | in the fields of sand.

15. There were Draupnir | and Dolgthrasir,
Hor, Haugspori, | Hlevang, Gloin,
Dori, Ori, | Duf, Andvari,
Skirfir, Virfir, | Skafith, Ai.

16. Alf and Yngvi, | Eikinskjaldi,
Fjalar and Frosti, | Fith and Ginnar;
So for all time | shall the tale be known,
The list of all | the forbears of Lofar.
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
Even in The Hobbit, Thingol's spirit haunts the dwarves through his ancestors, the Silvan elves, as the dwarves are captured and prisoners in cells. Doesn't that sound familiar?
But as yet the designs of Ufedhin came to nought, for in no wise
would Tinwelint suffer or him or those of the Nauglath to depart
to Nogrod with or without that portion of the unwrought gold that
yet remained, and he said: "How shall it be thought that after the
weariness of your burdened journeys hither I should let you so
soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of Tinwelint abroad in
Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall
ye have the gold that remains to work your pleasure on; nor shall
aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your
labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the
end."
But they knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying
the exits privily found them strongly warded. Being therefore
without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the
Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest
was that last smithying begun in a deep place of Tinwelint's abode
which he caused to be set apart for their uses, and what their hearts
lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a
mighty part. The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, THE NAUGLAFRING


I have read that list of dwarf names many times. And I have borrowed a few names for some of my silly characters.
Image Image
Alf & Duf
Image
Lofar
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
'Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram,' said Gimli, 'and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla. My heart trembles at the thought that I may see them soon.' TFOTR, The Ring Goes South
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Arien
Arien
Points: 2 417 
Posts: 1982
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 8:56 pm
Given there are so many fantastic names in the Edda from which Tolkien might have picked names for his characters, I wonder why he settled on the ones that he did? And why Gandalf is also named from there, but no other non-Dwarf characters?
cave anserem

Tree
Points: 4 777 
Posts: 3136
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:54 pm
Silky Gooseness wrote: Sat Mar 15, 2025 7:53 am And why Gandalf is also named from there, but no other non-Dwarf characters?
Gandalf steps out of this list in the Edda because originally selected by Tolkien as a name for one of the Dwarves. In the earliest drafts of The Hobbit the wizard is named Bladorthin and Gandalf is the chief Dwarf, only subsequently named Thorin. Possibly Tolkien concluded that Gand-alf is a mistake as a Dwarf name in the Edda; as a name it appears to belong to an Elf (alf).
Eat earth. Dig deep. Drink water.

Arien
Arien
Points: 2 417 
Posts: 1982
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 8:56 pm
I had completely forgotten about Bladorthin!! It certainly does give off a different vibe. Interesting though that Gandalf is in appearance an elderly Man, rather than an Elf, but is saddled with the name regardless.
cave anserem

Mahal
Mahal
Points: 3 817 
Posts: 3173
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:32 pm
From Wiki:
The name derives from the Old Norse words gandr (magic staff) and álfr (elf), thus a protective spirit who wields a magical wand.[2] T. A. Shippey, The Road to Middle-Earth (1992) p. 88
In UT:
Gandalf is a substitution in the English narrative on the same lines as the treatment of Hobbit
and Dwarf names. It is an actual Norse name (found applied to a Dwarf in Völuspá) 12 used by me
since it appears to contain gandr, a staff, especially one used in "magic," and might be supposed to
mean "Elvish wight with a (magic) staff." Gandalf was not an Elf, but would be by Men associated
with them, since his alliance and friendship with Elves was well-known. Since the name is attributed
to "the North" in general, Gandalf must be supposed to represent a Westron name but one made
up of elements not derived from Elvish tongues.
12 One of the poems of the collection of very ancient Norse poetry known as the "Poetic Edda" or the
"Elder Edda."
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

Post Reply