Minas Tirith City Hall (OOC)

[Lail]

@A Good Wife but I do love the name change as much as it confuses me!

@The King in Yellow toot away, that post was intense in the best way possible! Falaneth will be extremely horrified to see that on her way to the work..

@Ercassie - sounds good. I'd hate for anything to terrible to happen to Iole.

@Tharmáras on a side note, I came upon a Hatholdir post in my reading threads for ARPY nom's! Sadly I don't visit Imladris much but I will have to go read more of his stories as I am now very intrigued.

[Eriol]

I should be able to hit you up on Discord sometime this Wednesday morning or evening, @The King in Yellow !

I am honored to know you want to read more about my villainous High Elf, Hatholdir, @Lailyn ! He is a crafty dimensional figure you'll love to hate! I wonder which post of his intrigued you already. More are forthcoming!

[Lail]

It was in AoA, I love the drama. I may have to actually seriously incorporate this inspired pseudonym into Hathaldir's story!

[Nessa Saelind]

Let me just hop in here real quick like (while the old brain is still working) and add rapid-fire comments and praise before the Oînops póntos drowns me again. It's a slow work in progress, turtles and all.

1. He was under no illusion that he need worry about her.

2. And sensible was not exactly the companion that Nal had in mind. So it was something of a surprise to him when Cadil suddenly spouted some very responsible questions.

1. Sweet summer child... *pats Nal on the head*

2. <3 I honestly feel this is essential Nal and Cadil here! <3 You managed to capture the essence of both youths here Cassie and I loved how in just one sentence there's a whole spectrum and variety. I can clearly picture Nal looking at Cadil like he sprouted a second head or something. I admire how you can put a whole scene into one short, but perfect sentence

People would whisper lies if he gave her gifts; no one would gossip if he gave ones to the healer's child. "Well, angel, a man can't say he's sorry to a married gal with a boquet of Lossarnarch roses so this ought to do nicely."

In the next episode of A Day in the Life (tentative title, the other I have in mind is more hilarious to the author, but would give the wrong impression... Or would it? ) we shall hopefully see how the author will have Nessa respond to this situation... Stay tunned for the turtle update speed of your new favourite Gondorian soap opera

As you can clearly see, I am enjoying this way too much, and this is all in good fun and I don't mind anything *hugs* You can crack on with the teasing, and like I said I am a horrible enabler

[Pele Alarion]

Oh my... There is definitely a whole lot of plotting going on and all sorts of wild, unimaginable sorts of posts being written.

[Eriol]

@Lailyn I would be honored if you used Hatholdir for the inspired pseudonym of Hathaldir . If Hatholdir knew, he would swear an oath of friendship with his fellow jerk . You're welcome to RP in AoA! I don't know if you've read The Silmarillion but we do need more people.

It's a little sad that Beren won't be staying the whole time at the Argosy household, @A Good Wife , but we'll have a wonderful time with Aileen and the girls . Do you have guards by any chance there?

I hope that's a good thing, @Pele Alarion ! I love being a part and a reader of the intricate storytelling here. Always has been. I'll be posting in the Gaol & Dungeons soon and the Tower Guard .

[Nessa Saelind]

It's a little sad that Beren won't be staying the whole time at the Argosy household, @A Good Wife , but we'll have a wonderful time with Aileen and the girls . Do you have guards by any chance there?

Erm no. Do we need them? Why was I not aware that we need guards?! And why do you tell me these things before I've had coffee? Just kidding, but it's still a no on the guards thing, unless you count Oswald the 10-year-olf boy as a guard (he thinks he is anyway), then yes. But I think this household of ladies can hold down the fort until Ser Beren, the knight-errant returns to pick up his lovely daugter

[Eriol]

A question from a tired silly person but it seems like we've arrived at the possibility of male retainers on Discord so that's probably good.

[Nessa Saelind]

@Tharmáras - it wasn't a silly question at all. And to be fair I didn't connect the dots immediately, being tired and coffeeless I guess In any case, I'm glad you asked and that we managed to sort this via Discord.


And this is a great segue for a general statement If anyone ever has any questions, comments or concerns about anything I wrote, any setting or character, no matter how small or insignificant you think it is please feel free to tag me anywhere or reach out to me on Discord or via e-mail, or messenger bird or however. Seriously. *hugs* I'll be happy to answer and it might even help me with my writing because I might not have thought about it or forgot about something and it's a good way to remind me that I need to add things to the text and be clearer. Thank you for coming to my TED talk

[Eriol]

You must never go too long without being coffeeless, @A Good Wife .

@Winddancer , if I wanted to RP a trial at City Court would I and other members dramatize that in the Gaol thread (where I see mention of it) or would we in Northern Fiefdoms where it could be in the Second Circle with the Gaol ?

[Winddancer]

Whereever you think it fits or want to do it really :) Or make a City Court thread!

[Eriol]

Oooooo! Windy, that sounds like a marvelous idea !! Especially with all the crime happening in Gothamdor . City Court thread coming up by Sunday! Maybe even Arnyn and Pele could even show up as Aragorn and Faramir in some instances.

[Lail]

@Tharmáras - excellent. I like this development. I have read the Sil but its been AGES and I do not feel ready for AoA level RP but if/when I do you'll be the first to know! For now I will just be a quiet reader.

also I am excited for the court drama coming soon to a theater thread near you.

@A Good Wife well you know if Hathaldir gets fired/quits the city guard, maybe he could work for Nessa. He seemed to like her so far at least!

[Nessa Saelind]

@Tharmáras - the perfect balance of me not having enough coffee and me having too much coffee (if such a thing exists ) has yet to be found. BTW love your Court idea, however, you will now be faced with Nessa the annoying historian that meddles into your affairs What kind of legal system are we using here? On whose laws are we basing Gondor's laws and practices? Medieval England or the Continent? Does Minas Tirith have their own statute (codified laws, frequent in Mediterranean city-states in the Middle Ages)? If yes, which one will we use as an example? Are you regretting your life choices now?

@Lailyn hahahaha I think if Hathaldir ever lost his job, he would get hired by Lady Hellebore to guard the Library as punishment and for her own amusement. A lot of shenanigans is going on at the Library, people taking books and manuscripts without permission, trying to raise Sauron from the dead Yes, a guard would be needed

[Winddancer]

Sauron isnt dead, he is just disembodied a little and resting. Being evil is hard work you know :P

[The Good Hunter]

I'd love someone to make a parody film called "Sauron's Not Dead", I'd watch the hell out of that

[Nessa Saelind]

@Winddancer - my sincerest apologies, Sauron is not dead, just sleeping. Poor dear is tired is all

@The King in Yellow - like that Monty Python Bring out your dead scene. Sauron shouting I'm not dead!

[Eriol]

Yeah, it definitely won't be this Sunday, @A Good Wife @Lailyn now lol have to work things out in finer detail than I imagined, I suppose, lol. But eventually soon because the dog trial.

[Lail]

@A Good Wife agreed, that seems a suitable punishment!

@Winddancer but if Sauron WERE dead then a new dark power could rise up in his place!! *hint hint I don't know who that could be*

@The King in Yellow, you have my utmost appreciation for allowing me the opportunity to further psychologically/emotionally torture poor Falaneth. If I got anything wrong in her reaction to the body post, please let me know and I will edit accordingly.

@Tharmáras - oh well there's no rush on the court thread! I look forward to it when it happens. As an aside, if Beren comes to investigate the body, feel free to interact with Falaneth who is currently too stunned to function. Or anyone else, too, for that matter. I have to have Hathaldir sit this one out for other convoluted plot reasons.

[Winddancer]

No idea who you mean..

[The Good Hunter]

@A Good Wife that is blasphemous and hilarious

@Lailyn It was perfect! don't you dare change a thing! I've already read it 3 times, it's so good! You did fantastic, I love that you even added in the nightmare and bits about the creepy music.

[Lail]

Windy, I think you know exactly who I mean.

Whew ok good! I read your post a number of times as well. Details are NOT my friend and I didn't want to fred anything up. Thanks but it was all inspired by your glorious evilness!

[Winddancer]

Oh you mean Pazuzu, sure! :P

[The Good Hunter]

Pazuzu in control, by the gods that is terrifying

[Lail]

Ahh minions! I did not and you know it! Imagine Pazuzu + Winddancer. (I'd like a oneway ticket out of ME)

[Winddancer]

[Eriol]

@Lailyn , thank you for that invitation ! I'll take you up on that offer. Now that I'm done with the Northern Fiefdoms post that I've been writing for days (I'll post it later once anyone replies to what I'm projecting below) I just need to write for the Gaol and the Tower Guard so I can begin The Undertaker's Daughter story about Beren solving Iole's disappearance. Then I can return to Northern Fiefdoms where your character and the Librarian are. That will begin Beren's A Study in Ivory case for the TG. Frost and I have begun plotting about that!

Attention all: I have an idea (created while writing a post in Northern Fiefdoms Free RP presently) for the Swan Knights as supportive forces to the Rangers, operating in side quests; these would be based in the Northern and Southern Free RPs. If anyone wants to participate great, let me know; if not, that's okay too.

These quests would not divert the focus of any Ranger RPs which are the main military focus for the Gondor forum. They can be simple or complex, depending on what is plotted between the participants involved; they would include Swan Knight and Ranger collaborations along the sea coasts and rivers of the realm with a joint-forces base located in Pelargir. They would battle Corsairs and protect merchants and augment city policing. I am inspired by the role of Dol Amroth troops aiding other fiefdom warriors and the City defenders during the Siege of Gondor and in Mordor. I like to imagine that following the Corsair attacks on the realm and the minion assault in the War of the Ring that Imrahil orchestrated a stronger presence of knight activity on both water and land, serving as amphibious reinforcements / guard companions for Rangers and aid them with ships when necessary.

[Pele Alarion]

@Tharmáras One thing though: remember that the Rangers we have now are a small, mobile unit, not a large force. It is still to be seen how things turn out with people's activity levels, but I believe that for the Rangers it would be good to keep to small-scale, compact stuff else we'd end up with hundreds of NPCs. Large plots are fine, but I see Rangers taking on a small, specific role within any such plots. Like, in-and-out to destroy some smaller enemy force, though that would not necessarily exclude cooperation with Swan Knights.

[Ercassie]

I think it’s generally assumed that, yes, the Swan Knights can be deployed as a supportive force to the Rangers. However unlike the Rangers, which is a collective of diverse specialities, the Swan Knights have always been more competent within their rather more specific training/talent. That is the only point I would make in regard to your idea @Tharmáras.

In nautical warfare yes, they originate from Belfalas after all and many have the experience and expertise of naval prowess. And for threats that emerge in the south, which is their base, I would expect they would react before ever any Rangers were summoned for involvement. As again, they know the local people there, many of them actually oversee estates of land in Dor-en-ernil, that they would feel personally responsible for caretaking. What you suggest about defending the rivers and the coastal towns and fighting off corsairs thus makes a lot of sense. You know I have characters in that area I could throw at an RPG.

I’m not so sure that escapades in the north would really be so suitable for them, unless it required a cavalry presence which the knights do boast of course. At the end of the day though, there is no reason why anyone couldn’t RP in any quest/RP anywhere in Gondor as a Swan Knight character, so long as the GM approves that it would suit their ideals for the plot. Freedom and creativity are important. But so is the realism that we are a small RPing force. So I would not expect we can host an entire knights contingent full time and in addition to the Rangers. I brought my Swan Knight into the Rangers force for just this very reason, for eg. Just my opinion, of course.

It would be very stiff to suggest that Rangers deal primarily with threats to Gondor from land, and the Knights from threats arriving by sea, but this would probably tend to be their experience, or the norm, rather than an actual rule. And personally, I’d like to see instances of the opposite occur, where instead of the Swan Knights bolstering the Rangers as a resource on land, the Rangers in fact are sent to bolster the Knights in a fresh scenario on the coast. Particularly in the grounds of Corsairs, etc. Let’s have a little cultural exchange and all learn new things.

This is fourth age Gondor so yes, the main antagonist to our nation has been cast from his strength. And yes it was said that there came to be peace with foreign lands in the south. But I don’t imagine for one minute that those peace treaties were instantaneous or easy to negotiate. Nor that every character who has grown their whole life with anti-Gondor propaganda and maybe lost friends/relatives in the war with Gondor would necessarily agree to uphold a peace. Resistance in some pockets of the south are bound to become evident. And since we are not too far established within the Fourth age, there are vast groups of adversaries who are now maybe struggling a power vacuum at home and making decisions that will inevitably lead to grand decisions for their nations in regard to their neighbours. So there is huge potential for both Rangers and Swan Knights to find adventure etc still protecting their people. Just so long as we do not expect it to be upon the scale of past plaza instances. Based on our active numbers here. Let’s have fun, inject a bit of diversity, but just not ultimately spread ourselves too thin, as Bilbo would say. And I’ve certainly said too much already so, shutting up now.

[Nessa Saelind]

Alright, folks grab a drink, grab a snack I'm about to do some housekeeping so this might be a very long and rambly post. Hopefully coherent, but you never know when I get on my soapbox

@Lailyn - I decided to take you up on your offer to interact with Falaneth. Iskandar can go chill for a day with "Gondor’s agricultural holy trinity of wheat, olives and grapes" since it takes him ages to get from Minas Tirith to Pelargir I've had some ideas about Lady Hellebore (the Librarian) under the title A Disquiet Follows My Soul that would incorporate your Library posts so far, Ta'leus' scholar character Boriel and Frost's rendition of Sauron's shadow form, along with my own idea that connects Iskandar (the physician who is reluctant to leave Gondor those elves are gonna murder me when they see 2.000 words of ode to Gondor on the cruise ) and Lady Hellebore. I'm planning to split this into 2 parts: one for the Library thread where she notices all those events and is reflecting on them while being in the vaults checking on a codex she's been entrusted with two decades ago. The other part would be her sensing a sort of "disturbance in the force" by Frost's arrival and heading out to investigate, seeing Frost's art project and a shocked Falaneth. She recognises her as the person who took the manuscripts out of the library and decides now is the perfect time to make her presence know to the girl before she summons the Tower Guard (Beren).

And since I'm mentioning the Library @Ta'leus Shieldsong @The King in Yellow would it be alright with you if Lady Hellebore raises some sort of magical barrier that will make Sauron's spirit more difficult to manifest? Sauron could still break through it, the barrier is not permanent and needs to be regularly maintained, but just to make things a bit harder? If you don't like the idea or have something better in mind let me know, I'm opened to suggestions.

OK, what's next... *scrolls through*

Regarding Swan Knights: *reads through everything* Generally I think both the Rangers and Swan Knights and any other units from any other fiefdoms/cities can exist in parallel and cooperate. There's really no need to think that one unit or structure is a competition to the other. In addition, I don't think we need to make a formal and codified structure of every military unit in the Reunited Kingdom (in this case Gondor) We are having fun with RPs, not compiling previous Roman laws and codifying them with the new into the Codex Justinianus. We are a small, tight knight community and we can easily arrange everything via Discord or just typing out our thought and ideas here. So there's no need to stress (in my not so humble opinion ) about making everything formal and codified, crossing out all the T's and dotting out all the i's. Let's just agree that structures exist, they work together, units cooperate, people mix etc.

Personally, I would love to see more integration in the Kingdom, characters from all areas of life connecting and interacting. Their interaction crating new stories that develop through multiple threads (cross-pollination) - this is already happening, and I think this is the trend we need to encourage. However, this is just what I'd like to see, and just my opinion and suggestion not the King's Law I'll get off my soapbox now because I'm starting to ramble and not sound very coherent

P.S. @Tharmáras I thought about the laws thing for the Court, I'll type something once I have more coffee and generally when I'm a bit more focused to deal with legal matters. Oh, and if anyone has thoughts, opinions, suggestions about laws of the Reunited Kingdom leave your thoughts down below, feel free to tag me so I see it. I'd love to hear everyone's POV on this matter.

[Merewyn]

@A Good Wife I think that could be pretty fun to do!

[The Good Hunter]

@A Good Wife Sauron?! oh whatever do you mean? I'm definitely, absolutely, for sure, probably, maybe not Sauron. That's a spurious rumor and I will not stand for such slander! However, I welcome your Librarian's (likely successful) attempts to Sauron The Vestige out of the secret, dangerous parts of the library. Keep them away from the room with the Necronomicon in it

[Nessa Saelind]

Keep them away from the room with the Necronomicon in it

*bangs The Gavel of Canon Law* The Necronomicon is now officially a part of the NuPlaza Tolkien canon. *Alexa play Sinnerman from Lovecraft Country*

Although many dispute its existence, others believe it is real and still in Middle Earth. The authorship of the book is shrouded in mystery. Some say it was written by a Mad Noldo, possibly Fëanor himself, but more likely by one of his sons. Others claim that the book was written by the Necromancer himself, or the Witch-king of Angmar... Few now living know the truth, and Lady Hellebore guards the book, its secrets deep in the heart of the Library, wrapped in a labyrinth of protective enchantments.

The story of how The Necronomicon came into being and how Lady Hellebore acquired it and why is the book currently located deep in the heart of the Library of Minas Tirith, along with other stories from Lady Hellebore's long past shall also be told. *Alexa play An Age Undreamed Of by Basil Poledouris* (Probably when I take a vacation so I can write all of this. How was your vacation? Oh, splendid, I wrote weird tales! <3 )

[Eriol]

I understand about the activity, @Pele Alarion , and won't do anything grandiose considering what you said you're caught ⚘.

I'm excited we've started discussing the ideas you shared above out of this OOC and what we can do for Swan Knight characters in a sensible creative way, @Ercassie in the Free RPs .

@A Good Wife , yes there's other units which help like Hirluin's people. I'll be interested how you assist with me with the Court . I was thinking of Arwen instituting some laws as Queen like protecting animals (because of the Hattie situation) since she was an Elf.

[Nessa Saelind]

Before I start what is most likely going to be a very long and meandering essay let me first offer my sincerest apologies to everyone (especially @Tharmáras ) and put in a disclaimer: I am not a lawyer/attorney/barrister/judge/law professor. I have not finished law school, nor do I have a degree in any area of the law. I am not a law expert, nor am I claiming to be. I have an MA in history and everything I know about general history of law and state comes from the research I did during my university days. In addition I have to stress that I am most familiar with certain, specific legal systems and traditions – all of them European and related to the Continent. I am not that familiar with Anglo-Saxon law or practices, or Danelaw, so I do apologise. All of this to say that everything I write here is just my opinion based on the knowledge I have, not the King’s Law. I am not the supreme authority on this.

With that very lengthy disclaimer done let’s start shall we. The only thing we know about laws for Numenoreans and the Realms in Exile is the famous Law of succession in Númenor, basically a for of Lex Salica (Salic Law or Salian law) which deals with agnatic succession (male primogeniture, women cannot inherit the crown). The Law of succession was amended because Tar-Aldarion had no sons, and now we have a primogeniture regardless of sex. A kind of Pragmatic sanction with additions. I attached the link for everyone’s consideration.

Regarding Gondor, and the text you sent to me on Discord, Tolkien mentioned The Council of Gondor or the Great council of Gondor (link attached for everyone’s consideration). Since Gondor is a feudal society which is obvious by the fiefdoms in Gondor it’s not unexpected that Gondor would have some form of estates of the realm (the 3 estates, États généraux for those who remember their French history) and that the ruler (regardless of being the King/Queen or Steward) would have to consult these estates whenever important decisions for the realm needed to be passed. This includes new laws, changes of laws, unites of measure, taxes and many, many other things… In addition, since Gondor in the 4th age is a Reunited Kingdom under one rule I am assuming that Aragorn and Arwen (as his queen) would like to make changes to the existing laws. Codify legal practices and systems so one set of rules/laws is applied throughout he entire Reunited Kingdom. For example if a person commits a crime anywhere in the Reunited Kingdom the same law would be applied regardless if he committed this crime in Arnor (e.g. Bree), or in Gondor (e.g. Pelargir, Dol Amroth, Minas Tirith). But the process of changing, unifying and codifying the laws is a long and difficult process that would take years and need legal experts from all over the Kingdom.

Laws in general are not easy to codify, and they have to deal with a wide variety of subjects: from criminal law, civil law, marriage, contracts, property, trade, labour laws, taxes, banking, military matters… It’s very complex. But we can use something from history as a basis for our fictional laws, since Tolkien already did invoke Lex Salica as much as I detest that principle… *grumbles into the void* Since most people see Gondor as something similar to the Roman Empire (regardless of which stage of the Roman Empire we’re talking about) my suggestion would be to start with Roman Law as the basis for Gondorian laws. In the spirit of what did the Romans ever do for us? For simplicity sake we can start with Leges Duodecim Tabularum or Duodecimo Tabulae (Law of the 12 tables) although I think by the time of the 4th age Gondor would have surpassed that and be in the phase of Justinian’s Corpus Iuris Civilis, but that’s neither here nor there. The point is that to make things easy on ourselves we have to have some sort of agreement on the foundations for the law we decide on. So whenever we RP a scene in court and the advocates or the judges invoke a certain statue, article, edict or section of the law everyone knows what that person is referring to. And we don’t have cases in court where one person is writing a case using e.g. Roman law, and the other is using Anglo-Saxon law, and the third is invoking the laws of a city-state…

However, if this is truly overly complicated for a RP thread that is there for us to tell interesting stories and a bit of drama, you can absolutely ignore everything I said. It’s truly not necessary to go into this amount of detail and thinking and sorting things out just because I can’t keep my historical mouth (keyboard?) shut and just have to point out certain things because apparently I am well let’s be polite and say I’m a special kind of quirky and leave it at that. And everyone, please feel free to comment, contribute, share your thoughts and ideas. Like I said, I’m not the supreme authority here, these are just my thoughts and I realise that I am overcomplicating something that should be simple and enjoyable. Please, feel free to tell me to shut up and pack my Romans and go home.

[Ercassie]

We are having fun with RPs, not compiling previous Roman laws and codifying them with the new into the Codex Justinianus. We are a small, tight knight community and we can easily arrange everything via Discord or just typing out our thought and ideas here. So there's no need to stress (in my not so humble opinion ) about making everything formal and codified, crossing out all the T's and dotting out all the i's.

Err .. @A Good Wife. JK. It's alright, Nessa. No judgement here. Gondor's gonna 'Gondor'. We can't help debating it all, can we ? Impressed by the level of research you have gone to on Gondorian legal matters though !

[Nessa Saelind]

@Ercassie I am a living, breathing, walking meme

Nessa when asked about RP regarding military matters: "Sure, all structures can exist in parallel *yadda, yadda, yadda* We don't need to codify or complicate anything *yadda, yadda, yadda* Let's just have fun!"

Also Nessa when asked about legal matters: "What do you mean you want a Court? *frowns* What laws are we using here? What do you mean you have no idea? Listen here young man *proceeds to write an essay about Roman Law*"



In the meantime @Tharmáras is probably regretting his life choices, tearing his hair out in despair and debating if he should throw me or himself from the Tarpeian Rock Most likely me!

[Pele Alarion]

Ahahaha! I think each of us has areas closer to our heart.

*considers a detailed account on military affairs* Well, Rangers should have a clear structure, purpose, tasks, chain of command, as well as plentiful cooperation possibilities, and a bit of space for mischief (do consider the consequences though! ).

Nessa, what do you mean you are not a lawyer?... That is too detailed for someone who doesn't know law. :P *escapes the court premises quickly*

[Nessa Saelind]

@Pele Alarion - I know enough about the law to apply the Socratic paradox to it ipse se nihil scire id unum sciat aka I know that I know nothing

And I would encourage the discussion about military affairs and Ranger structure and organization, although military affairs are generally not my forte. But the discussion they had in Rohan regarding the Cavalry code of conduct was extremely interesting and I loved how much thought and care was put into the document that was made. Maybe at some point, we could start a discussion about the Ranger organization in the Ranger HQ.

I know it was debated in the old thread, but maybe things need to be modified again because of the number of active participants. Perhaps the discussion about a reorganization of the current structure of the Rangers, and them having specializations could solve a Swan Knight problem. If memory serves me in ye Olde Plaza there was a cavalry division of the Rangers? Perhaps that position could be occupied by the Swan Knights? *thinking face*

*is an enabler and encourager of discussions and various ideas*

[Pele Alarion]

@A Good Wife There is a Ranger Code, and @Turin Ringhûn is the holder of it. Might have to prod him to see how things stand.

I don't think we are able to expand the Rangers yet - the active members can still be counted on fingers of one hand no matter how long the list is in the opening post of OOC, so I don't see how we could accommodate anything beyond a small unit so that people are not spread out. If we branched out, it would mean perhaps 1 or 2 people per unit - how are they gonna RP? I'm not to keen on letting people accumulate too many NPCs (by this I mean more than 2 or 3) in the Rangers as it might turn out to be counterproductive to interaction with actual other players.

@Arnyn Dragging you into this.

[Ercassie]

As goes the council, I am happy to leave the particulars to those with greater expertise and interest upon the matter. I shall say though that the link to Twelve Tables saga in particular was very entertaining as a contrast for expectations of civilian life as we know it. And also some of the matters mentioned in that article are potentially inspiring for future RP activity within the court. I am more excited than ever as to what sort of activity this thread is going to bring to the kingdom, and how it will inevitably crossover with basically any already existing thread where any sort of 'crime' or legal matter may be recognised.

As goes the Rangers/Swan Knights confusion, I believe that the overall concensus back a year ago was that we don't have enough active persons to flesh out six recognised separate groups of specialty as we did previously in the golden days of plaza popularity, when the films had just come out, etc. I am very happy with the amalgamated version we pieced together for our current needs, which still allows for people to specialise in certain skills and yet bring that skill to the group, as a member of the general group.

The Swan Knights issue and the reason it would not work as simply making it 'the cavalry' segment of the Rangers, is the fact that the Swan Knights are run and ordered by Prince Imrahil in the South. They presumably were created to attend to the needs of Dor-En-Ernil/Belfalas which Imrahil was answerable to ordering; and which is many many days travel from the more central Gondorian cities of Minas Tirith, Osgilliath (historically), etc. The way I understood it was that the Swan Knights who attended at the War of the Ring, were the local force that Imrahil could muster and send to help to defend the nation during the siege of Gondor/Battle of Pelennor Fields. Just as all the fiefdom lords sent their own contingent of military support in that time of especial need. They stand out somewhat because they are recognised as knights, as opposed to men-at-arms, and because Imrahil's responsibility itself seems to be something of an exception to the rule, a southern principality as opposed to a fiefdom. In Fourth Age Gondor, Faramir is also bestowed the position of Prince, which effectively makes Ithilien a principality as well ?

But basically, the Rangers as a collective are a more overall group that answer to the King/Steward directly. By very nature of their having different heads and different jurisdiction, that sets them apart from the ruler's subordinates, such as Imrahil and his knights. But I do fully support the potential for people to RP as Swan knights as they see fit throughout Gondor, etc, with of course, some understanding that any instance of them carrying out an authorised military presence in the north for eg, far from their base of strength and locality, would probably do well to explain why they had been assigned that task.

[Arnyn]

Haha Pele. You do love dragging me into these things, don't you? Don't get me wrong, I love you for it. I do enjoy sharing my thoughts

Ercassie just hit the proverbial nail on the head for me.

Specializations within the King's MT based group as it is now do exist, and were created on nuplaza to give a sense of individuality, the opportunity for specific skills as well ad the opportunity for growth without creating many officers ranks.

Creating separate divisions on nuplaza was not an option based on limited nr of active role players, that has not changed (to the contrary).

And the Swan Knights have nothing to do with this MT based unit, seeing as they are based in Dol Amroth and not MT. Like the MT unit is also separate from prince Faramir's own qithilien based Ranger unit (even though the Ranger name was adopted). No one is stopping anyone from role playing a swan knight, though!

[Nessa Saelind]

Just poking in to say I like to see Ranger matters discussed Not because Gondor necessarily needs a Ranger reorganization (unless, of course, the Rangers themselves want a reorganisation), but because I believe that it's good to look at structures from time to time to see if everything still fits, it something needs to be changed, added etc.

So take my interest and encouragement of the discussions of military matters in Gondor (Rangers and Swan Knights and any other units) as more of theoretical interest, not my wish to push a change, since I don't have a ranger character in the game. And of course I like to see people discussing various Kingdom matters, because I love seeing different perspectives and learning from you

[Lail]

[mention@]Tharmáras[/mention] @A Good Wife, I'm glad you're both keen. I'm excited to see what happens with the Corpse story next. I am sure being approached by Lady Hellebore will make Falaneth feel so much better...

Since you asked, I will offer my personal opinion on the Court but will keep it brief -
I generally prefer fewer rules/formally codified "stuff" and would rather see people get into the actual posting and writing the story than spending lots of time on an intricate legal system and OP. However, I do see how some structure could help people come up with ideas and I appreciate and admire your research efforts, Nessa!

I'm excited to see it in whatever form it winds up taking, whatever is ultimately decided.

[Lail]

ack sorry @Tharmáras made a mistake in your tag!

[Eriol]

It has been a long night at work, @A Good Wife but I'll look over the Court today because I won't have a shift to distract me. Then I can reply back for you with my thoughts. I agree with @Lailyn that we should have a loose court system that's easy for roleplay yet we still need a law guide of sorts to look at which could generate creative scenarios for all involved. I'll have a look at what you've shown us, Nessa, and provide some feedback. Cassie has shown me some parts of the Twelve Tables which have fascinated me and could be used for a number of legal cases/prompts. Tolkien spoke of outlaws that needed "clearing out" in Ithilien in Letter 224 so, according to lore, there's criminal activities certainty happening in Fourth Age Gondor (also in Arnor but I'll address this later and cite references. There's all kinds of trouble threatening the fledging yesrs of the Reunited Realm). There's also political enemies like my Corsair character, Sarabeth Gameela, whom we will see incarcerated in the Gaol, recently captured and most likely awaiting trial. I'll speak about the Court here when I've looked over your material properly! I'm glad you enjoyed the lore count about Aragorn's council i sent you and thanks for the article! ⚘

Attention all regarding Swan Knights

"I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn,
as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting,
and in the early years of Aragorn's reign expeditions against enemies in the east.
The chief commanders, under the King, would be Faramir and Imrahil;
and one of these would normally remain a
military commander at home in the King's absence.
In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even
Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the
Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor..." - Tolkien, from Letter 244

I agree with @Pele Alarion , @Arnyn , and @Ercassie concerning Swan Knights existing as a separate entity from the Rangers in this forum. I support Cassie's suggestion that the Rangers could bolster them in Belfalas in Free RP quests. Considering Tolkien's view of Prince Imrahil being a Chief Commander with Prince Faramir in the Fourth Age, also a member of Aragorn's Great Council of Gondor, I've created a character - a captain in Dol Amroth's forces - who's an ambassador of Imrahil. I'll mostly play her in Belfalas territory but she will occasionally visit the Commons to post quest opportunities for Rangers on the misson board. Just in case any Ranger would like to assist Swan Knights in Belfalas against enemies, both foreign (Corsairs) and domestic.

About the Rangers:

"Also to be Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Numenorean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige, was not a 'market-garden' job as you term it. Until much had been done by the restored King, the Prince of Ithilien would be the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost - and also would have many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made clear that there was much fighting and in the earlier years of Aragorn's reign expeditions against enemies in the East." - Tolkien, Letter 244

There are some compelling details relating to Faramir's role as a martial leader in the Fourth Age. In this era of Gondor there is much combat, this is clear. Based on the canon content above I have a few small Ranger unit - (quoting Pele) adventures in mind I'd like to run as Beren with Faramir's approval (like ousting outlaws from Ithilien and forays into Mordor, even freeing the slaves of Nurnen), including small exploratory missions involving Rangers sent into post-war areas (once Sauron controlled https://lotrfanaticsplaza.com/forum/vie ... f=14&t=109 where we can RP for these spying, intelligence-gathering expeditions) to ascertain the extent of danger in places like Harad; thus Faramir (Pele) and Aragorn (Arnyn) can have the necessary information before making greater plans. Beren's pitch will be proposed at Faramir's office in my next Commons post once he cleans his room and empties chests of embarassing contraband to begin proving his maturity. A decent trimming of the beard might not be so bad either.

[Nessa Saelind]

@Lailyn - I agree with you re "fewer rules/formally codified "stuff" " although I know on occasions having fixed structures helps people with RP-ing because they don't have to "invent" something for RP or research things into great detail because someone already did that and made the basic structure. So all you have to do is incorporate that into your text and work around it.

However, let's not forget that when we are working on out RP posts we are a one-person writing and research unit. We don't have a writing and research team like in TV shows (that would make my life easier ) so I do want to keep things as simple as possible. I don't mind doing research about any subject (although that's the reason people die of old age while waiting for my posts ), and I'm more than happy to work on this (cue people crying in anguish knowing that my replies will be even later than usual ). I'm open to any and every suggestion, idea, option, whatever. I'm not wedded to any of my ideas, not even to Roman Laws as long as we have something that makes sense to everyone and most of us if not everyone can get behind.

@Tharmáras - there's truly no rush about this. Take your time, laws are a source of headaches at the best of times.

[Winddancer]

@A Good Wife Psshshhhhshshhhh!! *waves hand frantically* Dont tell him to take his time, are you nuts!?

[Nessa Saelind]

@A Good Wife Psshshhhhshshhhh!! *waves hand frantically* Dont tell him to take his time, are you nuts!?

Oh, hush! If he takes his time I get more time for research and doing other things We might even resolve this by then

[Winddancer]

Uh huh..