Had each their proper gem

Irmo
  halfir Posted: 04/Dec/2008 at 10:15pm
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In a now long archived series of threads (five in all) dealing with the Rings of Power, we discussed , on the Plaza, a series of detailed questions about the Great Rings of Power, in what still remains the most comprehensive and thorough discussion about them  on the Plaza. One of the truly exciting things about that discussion was that we allowed ourselves to speculate in order to get nearer to the 'truth' surrounding the Rings, and that speculation (particularly mine) at times took on an 'Icarian quality'. However, by the end of the series we had produced some of the finest analysis and constructive debate about the Rings that the Plaza has seen.
 
My purpose in this thread is to invite that same degree of constructive speculation with regard to the Gemstones of the 16.
 
In the aforementioned series
 
The Rings of Power -4
 
 
I said:
 
It would be interesting to know what these were, as gemstones have their own 'lore'. We know of those in the Three, but our sources are silent as to those in the sixteen, other than telling us that each ring, other than the One, had its own stone: "The Nine, the Seven, and the Three, had each their proper gem. Not so the One."  (Gandalf- FOTR - The Council of Elrond). (My bold emphasis).
 
The use of the word 'proper' is interesting. Why not just,  "each their own gem"?Remember Tolkien was very particular about the words and phrases he used in LOTR -he is on record as saying he weighed and balanced each of the 600,000 words he used before actually using them! Now 'proper' might just mean distinctive, but it also might mean 'appropriate to the particular function of that specific Ring' - thus linking back to the gem-lore referred to earlier. We will never know for sure, but how do others gloss this phrase?
 
In answer, my good friend Parmardil- one of the Plaza's truly great Loremasters, wrote as follows:
 
The Gems of the Rings

As has already been said, the Rings have a deep symbolic meaning as a metaphor, an "objectivization" of Power, that is to say the capacity to make the will quickly and completely effective. Considered in this light, the Ring-gems, along with the gold of which the Rings were made, symbolize riches; and riches are the most common and readiest mean to fulfill one's desires, to realize one's will. So riches are a symbol of and at the same time a means to Power. Furthermore, in fables and tales they often have magical powers, and/r constitute part of enchanted objects: they have, as halfir puts it, "their own lore".

We know that the Dwarves used the Seven "only for the getting of wealth" (Silmarillion)), that the Rings were the foundation of the Seven Dwarven Hoards and that they, or at least Durin's Ring, could "breed gold", though needing gold for the process to begin. But on this Halfir will soon enter into deeper detail. The Nine gave their bearers "glory and great wealth" (again, see Silmarillion).

Thus, it seems that, though "the chief power (of all the rings alike) was the preservation or slowing of decay", among their "other powers, more directly derived from Sauron" there was that of increasing the wealth of their owner, indirectly rending him more capable of enriching himself or actually "breeding" gold for him.
Finally, we must remember that the Elven-smiths of Eregion were Noldor Elves: and it was Noldor Elves that frst discovered and carved and shaped the earth-gems: "They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor." (cfr. Silmarillion, chapt. 5 Of the Rings of Power)

So, since the Gwaith-i-Mirdàin devised the Rings in an attempt to render Middle-earth the equal or at least a reflection of Valinor, we can infer that the Ring-gems were, in a way, connected to this "beautifying" process and more specifically with the finding and accumulation of other gems and precious metals. (This is perhaps going too far, since Tolkien never said anything explicit about it, but I deem, from what precedes, I am not too off the mark).

Of the Three Rings we know the stones: sapphire for the Vilya, the Ring of Air; diamond for Nenya, the Ring of Water and ruby for Narya, the Ring of Fire. Air is the element of Manwë, the lord of the Valar and probably for this motive Vilya is the mightiest of the Rings. We do not hear anything of its powers: the only (very thin) reference, perhaps, to its action is that in Imladris, where Elrond, its keeper, dwelt, "the stars of heaven most brightly shone." (Silmarillion, chapt. 5)

Concerning the Ring of Water, I have already made in a previous post a connection between it and the Mirror of Galadriel; also, water is an important element in definig the boundaries and "nature" of Lòrien (think of the refreshing power of the waters of the Nimrodel). Narya, the Ring of Fire, is held by Gandalf, and we know his fondness for fire and his role as a "rekindler" of hope and valour in the Free Peoples.

But the Three Rings were different from the rest, in that they were the most powerful and conceived by the Elves alone, and directed to "preserve beauty and heal the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change" (letter n. 181).

So, from the scanty information we have, we can perhaps conclude that the gems of the Three were the "proper" gem for their respective Ring in that they symbolized or actually determined the peculiar manifestation of its preserving and healing power, something the gems set in the Seven and the Nine seem to lack; being "just" capable of bringing riches and slowing change all in the same way
The Seven and Nine, moreover, are represented as displaying their action on their bearers only and not on Nature itself: they kindle and satisfy the greed for wealth, they enhance the natural power of the possessor (this also the Three do), they confer invisibility to and prolong the life of Men, finally enslaving their will and changing their biological nature.
We must not forget that the Seven and the Nine were stepping stones towards the masterpieces of the Elven-smiths: the Three. In the same way we can infer that the gems that adorned the Nine and Seven were less powerful, less peculiar than that of the Three (at least, they were seen by Tolkien of being all much of the same kind, not requiring the articulate description afforded to the stones of the Three).
The One Ring does not possess a gem, for various reasons: to distinguish it from the others starting with the exterior aspect, to create a sharp contrast between his less adorned, simple, almost shabby look and its overmighty power and because to adorn it would have, in a sense, meant to "limit" its role, to connect it too closely to the particular aspect symbolized by it adornment, as it happens with the Seven and Nine, whose gems hint at the riches obtainable by their use or the stones of the Three, each pointing to one of the Elements. The Ruling Ring could only have the purest and most perfect (and therefore the most powerfully symbolic) of the forms: a circle.
 

(As an aside, I think the look of the One in the movie is quite wrong: I think, judging also from the description of the Ring in LotR, that the One had curved sides and not flat sides; that is to say, it had a perfectly circular section besides being, obviously, round-shaped, and that the Ring Inscription was continuous, i.e. it was a unique verse running inside and outside and not the same verse written outside and repeated inside).
 
While everyone is, of course, permitted to comment at will on any of the points made or suggested in the quotes, my real purpose in this thread is to ask- against the scantiest of textual backgrounds, that you speculate what gemstones the Nine and the Seven might have carried and why.
 
I will award tribute for what I deem to me to be the most satisfying and cogent suggestions.
 
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 05/Dec/2008 at 5:34pm
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Gem - A Short Diversion

Note that Gandalf says:
 
The Nine, the Seven, and the Three, had each their proper gem. Not so the One."  (Gandalf- FOTR - The Council of Elrond). (My bold emphasis).
 
He does not say 'jewel'. So what, one might ask- they are interchangeable? But of course, they are not.
 
In Letter # 131 Tolkien wrote of LOTR:
 
Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered
 
I would suggest that this is very much the case with Tolkien's use of 'gem', which, like so many of his word uses- is layered. On the face we simply have 'gemstone'- the rings had a gemstone, or precious stone. BUT if we investigate the symbolic difference between gem and jewel- we get a somewhat deeper picture emerging.
 
In the OED the primary definition of gem is given as :
 
A precious stone of any kind esp. when cut and polished; a jewel
 
and under 'jewel' we get:
 
A precious stone, a gem
 
However, the entry in the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols under 'gem'  leads us, perhaps to a secndary meaning, and one, I would suggest, known and intended by Tolkien in his use of the word:
 
The study of the symbolism of this word cannot be separated from that of the word Jewellery. The shade of meaning that distinguishes them undoubtedly arises from the fact that the gem is pure stone, directly produced by the chthonian {in or beneath the earth; underworld} womb of Earth, and therefore comprises that precious manifestation of the unfathomable collective unconscious; while jewellery, the work of human hands, gives these stones glory and fame by cutting, polishing, and setting them.
 
Now of course the cutting, polishing, and setting in this instance was done by the elves- not humans. Nor do I for one moment suggest that Tolkien was referring to the precious manifestation of the unfathomable collective unconscious.
 
Indeed as Norman Cantor observes:
 
Like nearly all Oxbridge dons of their generation, they {Tolkien and Lewis}had little use for psychoanalysis, and neither ever had psycotherapy'!LOL {Inventing the Middle Ages Chptr: The Oxford Fantasists}
 
But I do feel thast Tolkien  was trying to resonate what one might call the'primal' or  -perhaps more appropriately - 'natural' aspect of the word, by using gem rather than jewel, so that one has both the primal, or natural symbolic force of the stone as well as its more 'manufactured' ornamental one.
 
Or, of course, I might be going a bridge too far!LOL
 
However, returning to the main question
 
what gemstones the Nine and the Seven might have carried and why
 
here's a cheap and cheerful guide to what some gemstones represent (cf. The Penguin Dictionary of Symbolism} BUT remember that for all the positive symbols associated with gemstones there are- conversely- negative ones too.
 
Amethyst - temperance and a ward against enchantment
Diamond - perfection
Emerald - regenerative powers
Pearl -  the perfection of human beginnings and ends
Ruby - good fortune
Sapphire - purity and hope
 
 
 
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New Soul
  Blackrose Bugg Posted: 05/Dec/2008 at 8:21pm
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For the rings of the nine, I would like to propose Obsidian as a "proper gem".  It is a volcanic stone, having its origins in lava, which cools to form "volcanic glass".  What more appropriate source for elements of Rings of Power crafted by the Master of Orodruin? 

Obsidian was prized among primitive people for the ease with which it could be formed into extremely effective cutting and stabbing tools.  The legendary knives with which the Incan priests removed the still-beating hearts of their victims were crafted of obsidian.  In fact, it still has a use as a surgical implement today.   As a stone which so easily became a weapon - whether or not a Morgul knife is topic for another thread - obsidian seems to be associated with conflict, even torture, and that surely was the bailiwick of the nazgul!

In addition - obsidian appears in many hues, but far and away the common one is black.  No need to belabor the connection betwee Black, evil, black riders, etc.

But as a stone of power, obsidian has unexpected attributes.  Being black, it can confer invisibility (Black being the absence of light).  I suppose that stones might operate much as other natural powers, providing ONLY the force - the direction of that force (positive or negative) being determined by the user.  So while obsidian is usually cited as being a protective stone-  it also has the property of imposing a barrier between the wearer and other influences - what better attribute for a stone which is to be used on a ring that will create immortal thralls out of mortal men?  Time cannot touch them, nor can good deeds, pleasant  memories, etc.  All of this would result in weakness - so a stone is emplaced to keep those possible weaknesses at bay.

Obsidian was also used as a mirror, allowing realistic reflections to be cast from its polished surface.  As a stone in a Nazgul's ring, this reflectivity would be, like the positive barrier to negativity, reversed.  The wearer would not have clear vision for the reality of things around them - and indeed, the Nazgul do not.  Or, perhaps, it is that the reflections are all inward, rather than outward.  As is the sense of individuality in a Nazgul, or so it seems.  Little remains of the mortal spirit of independence, or intrinsic motivation-  all has been subsumed by the will of Sauron.

I am still unsure if all of the Nine rings contained the same gem-  or if there were 9 different gems incorporated in their crafting.  But obsidian is a prime candidate to have adorned those Rings, one or all.

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Warrior of Imladris
  Dorwiniondil Posted: 05/Dec/2008 at 8:58pm
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I am still unsure if all of the Nine rings contained the same gem-  or if there were 9 different gems incorporated in their crafting.
 
Well, if I interpret "had each its proper gem" correctly, I think it should mean that each one had its own presumably individual stone different from the others ...
 
But I certainly like obsidian for at least one of the Nine!  I can now imagine a run on obsidian rings as certain Minions we know head for their jewelers.  Even so, if my interpretation is correct, that still leaves 8 stones to be accounted for.
"I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses."
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 05/Dec/2008 at 10:06pm
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BB: An excellent post- but of course, as you are an Admin it would not be protocol for me to gift you points. However, you are awarded an honorary tribute of 25 points.Applaud
 
And I agree with Dorwiniondil- each ring had its own stone.
 
The Penguin Dicitonary of Symbols -inter alia - says that the stone's symbolism is similar to that of flint which the  to the Ancient Mexicans was:
 
associated with cold, darkness, the kingdom of the dead, and the north
 
some Morgothian and Sauronian resonances there!
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Warrior of Imladris
  Dorwiniondil Posted: 05/Dec/2008 at 10:30pm
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Hm.  "The Ring of Flint" doesn't really have quite the same resonances  (except of course in a strictly geological sense).beam
"I am no longer young even in the reckoning of Men of the Ancient Houses."
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Herald of Minas Tirith
  geordie Posted: 05/Dec/2008 at 10:33pm
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Going off at a tangent, if I may - Tolkien wrote an article called 'Sigelwara Land', which was published in Medium Aevum in the 1930s. It's about an obscure word, or words which the Anglo-Saxons used for the Etheopians. (it occurs, among other places, in the Old English Exodus).

Tolkien spends a lot of time in the article looking at the word 'Sigel' with its variant spellings. It can mean 'Sun', and also 'jewel'. It's also the name of the A-S 'S' rune, with the meaning 'Sun'.

Taking the meaning of sigel = 'jewel', Tolkien defines the word thus:

...the essential meaning is an annular, circular or boss-shaped ornament (bulla) especially one of elaborate design (searogrimm), golden or gilded, set with gems such as garnet...

... On the one hand we have a word 'sigel' used in runes and verse with the sense 'sun'. On the other we have (a) sigel, a round jewel or ornament (b) sigele, a necklace, and probably (c) sige(e)le of similar sense, associated... with mene, gimm, gold, and sinc. The use in runes and verse could be derived from poetic and riddling language, and is in fact closely paralleled by the use of 'gimm', the derivation of which from Latin 'gemma' can hardly be doubted. Compare esp. Beowulf 2072 and Phaenix 92... (where it is possible that the original actually had sigel and 'gim' as equivalents).
   

So where does this take us? In 1932, when Tolkien was writing this, his professional learning took him to consider an obscure word which has meanings in rune-craft; and botany (something I haven't touched on here) and also jewel-craft. We have Tolkien's conclusion that the word 'Sigel' has two meanings: 'Sun' and 'Jewel' (particularly round, golden jewels - such as rings) - and it can also mean 'gem'.

And finally - 'Sigelwara Land' also has connections to balrogs - see Shippey.

Something to think about?

   
It's all in the books...
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Herald of Minas Tirith
  geordie Posted: 05/Dec/2008 at 10:38pm
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several simuls - It's taken me some time to struggle thru the OED and Medium Aevum to write my post.



It's all in the books...
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 06/Dec/2008 at 12:47am
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geordie: Something very much to think about my dear sir. I never fail to be amazed at how we start a thread and then , suddenly, doors are opened that one didn't even know were there. That's what I love about the Lore Forums- especially AL and what I appreciate so much about the time and effort that I know is put in to even the shorter posts to arrive at one such as geordie has given us. And I know, knowing the man, ther's more to come, as well as a lot more for us to think about. It sounds as if we might be in for a 'white water ride' - I certainly hope so. And Balrogs too!LOL
 
You have been tribbed - good sir.Thumbs%20Up
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Herald of Minas Tirith
  geordie Posted: 06/Dec/2008 at 12:59am
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thanks, halfir.    

It's all in the books...
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New Soul
  Blackrose Bugg Posted: 06/Dec/2008 at 2:04am
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Bows - thankee for the thought points, halfir.  Attempting a connection to one of the dwarven rings, then (and accepting the decision that each ring bore its own unique gem), I propose a somewhat controversial element, amber.

Amber is not a gemstone, as it is actually tree sap.  The controversy over whether or not dwarves could be affected by something not actually of a stone nature may need to be discussed.  However, going back to the dialogue between Aule and Yavanna, a substance that is produced by trees that can be made to be inimical to dwarves is not outside the realm of possibility.  After all, the protection of those self-same trees was the guiding force behind the establishment of the Ents, so the conflict is defined for us.  Why not have a back up defense in the very sap of those trees?  Speculation, granted.  But not without a root or two of possibility.

Returning to amber and its properties, sympathetic magic is based on the idea that natural forces and influences are attracted by a physical resemblance.  Cave paintings of animals may be the result of sympathetic magic at work - the painters wished to have influence over the animals in order to more successfully hunt them, so they created a likeness in order to focus their influence and ensure the success of the hunt.  Voodoo dolls are another form of sympathetic magic.  However, it works both ways.  Natural items that resemble certain things are said to have power over those things.  And what does Amber resemble?  Nuggets or lumps of gold.  What better choice to ensnare the hearts and minds of gold-obsessed dwarves than a ring bearing something resembling that self-same gold?  Which would explain why the dwarven rings increased the greed of the wearers.

Amber is unusual in that it is always warm.   Aside from the resonance to the Cracks of Doom, this might have had an appeal to beings whose existence was spent largely in cold underground places where warmth would be achieved only after conscious and considered effort (or so I have always imagined the mines and caves of Khadad-dum, etc.)

Amber is used extensively for healing of physical pain, as well as centering and balancing.  Teething necklaces of amber are still used by parents in many parts of the world to ease the pain of their infants.  Since dwarves seem to have a rather sturdy constitution already, this might serve to enhance that, allowing them to continue with more severe wounds.  The centering and balancing effects would tie them even more closely to the earth.

However, amber is also quite well known for its trapping and holding power.  Witness the multitude of insects trapped in amber and found to be perfect in every detail thousands of years later.  Sauron could certainly use this to his advantage, trapping and holding the dwarves, even those he did not physically imprison (such as Thorin's father).  And in a race already predisposed to remaining somewhat static (as the line of Durin's indicates, not much interested in changing things), the amber would only serve to increase that unwillingness to seek out new ways of doing things, freedoms, one might say.

So, the apparent contradiction of a nonmineral substance holding power over the notably stone associated dwarves can, I believe, be overcome, and amber could be nominated as a likely candidate to adorn one of the seven.

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Horse-lord of Edoras
  Edelor Posted: 06/Dec/2008 at 2:35am
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Very interesting thread, halfir.
 
First some observations I came up with while reading the posts above.
 
1.There is indeed a difference between a "gem" and a "jewel", and I think you have described it well. For instance, I don't remember that the Silmarils were ever called "gems" - only "jewels" ,  and rightly, as these crystals were artificial. So what we have in the Rings are  natural precious stones.
2. I doubt that pearl could be called a "gem".
3. Obsidian. Yes, it seems appropriate for the Nine, but only now, in hindsight, after we have full knowledge of the fate of this set of rings and their unfortunate owners. Yet, the gems were put there before even Sauron  had conceived the idea to give these rings to Men. As the Three and the Seven, the Nine were meant for Elves, not for the enslavement of Mankind. Thus their gems shouldn't be sinister in any way, I think.
 
Now what I can add to the thoughts above (not much, sorry, but here goes):
When speaking of precious stones, four immediately come to mind - the most precious of all: Diamond (this we have in Nenya); Sapphire (Vilya); Ruby (Narya) and Emerald.
The latter was surely known to Celebrimbor, and one of his stones of choice. He reportedly made the Elessar II, using Emerald's intrinsic properties:  regenerative powers, its affinity with growing things.
It would be most strange if not a single Ring had emerald in it. Actually, given its affinity with Elves and their desires, Emerald would have been quite appropriate for one of the Three - but it was not so. Then - what other Ring had an emerald? One of the Nine or one of the Seven? I don't really know. However, the green jewel Elessar I found its way to Earendil, the fact that Sauron undoubtedly was aware of. Perhaps he gave the Emerald ring to a Man, one of Earendil's descendants: the beautiful green stone tainted by evil? Such a choice would have been symbolic for the Evil Maia.
 
Another thing. There are many precious stones, especially if we also take into account semi-precious ones (like amethyst), but still I doubt that each of the 19 had its unique type of stone. Maybe there were differently colored diamonds in some of the rings?
 
Also, I have a side question, but one that may be important for the main topic.
OK, the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, after Annatar had left Eregion, but before the One was made. But were the Three made in secret from Sauron? Or were they included in the original project agreed upon by Celebrimbor and Annatar, but simply left to Celebrimbor to finish while Annatar attended to urgent matters elsewhere?
If the latter is right, then it is likely that among the Seven and the Nine there were no sapphire, white diamond and ruby. Celebrimbor would have told Annatar that he kept these gems for the Three.
 
 

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New Soul
  Blackrose Bugg Posted: 06/Dec/2008 at 3:17am
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Edelon - some excellent points, and some I will need to think on.  However, in your critique of obsidian as a choice, you say that the gems should not be sinister as they were intended for elves originally, not Men.  But since the purpose of forging ANY of the Rings was to gain power over the Elves, the inclusion of sinister gems would be part and parcel, regardless of the eventual "victim".

In those days the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil surpassed all that they had contrived before; and they took thought, and they made Rings of Power. But Sauron guided their labours, and he was aware of all that they did; for his desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.  (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, The Silm) (my emphasis)

The transference of eventual owner from Elf to Man negates part of my argument - that of the mortal to immortal thrall, but I believe that the rest is still sound, and that obsidian would have been an appropriate gem for a Ring of Power.

We are further told that Sauron collected all Rings but the Three, and corrupted them to his uses.  Is it that far a stretch to visualize him choosing WHICH rings would be assigned/ascribed to Dwarves and which to Men, based on their gem stones, and the resonances of those stones?  In which case, an obsidian based ring would have been much more likely to have been set aside for the corruption of Men, rather than dwarves, in my opinion.

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Horse-lord of Edoras
  Edelor Posted: 06/Dec/2008 at 4:01am
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Blackrose Bugg - sure Sauron-Annatar had evil intentions from the start of his association with the Mirdain, but he kept them secret, didn't he? Making a set of obviously sinister Rings would have been an unnecessary give-away.
 
I don't say there was no Obsidian ring: there might have been, especially if we decide that every Ring had its own type of stone. Yet, I think , obsidian would have been the last choice both for Annatar and Celebrimbor. Sauron had all reasons to make all the Rings appear attractive and most desirable. He could (and likely did) insert his "corruption" into the gold itself, as he did with the One. Gold contains a goodly proportion of Morgoth element anyway, while the proporties of most gems are benign.
 
The Obsidian Ring could have easily been among the Seven, not the Nine. Why not: volcanic glass is strongly associated with Earth, mines under the mountains, volcanoes etc.
 
Also, as far as we are told, Sauron gave the Nine to Men, not because their gems were more "in tune" with Men, but because Men were more easily corrupted: Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves; but to Men he gave nine, for Men proved in this matter as in others the readiest to his will.-Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. Thus Men got more rings and weaker rings than the Dwarves.
 

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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 06/Dec/2008 at 11:49am
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Edelor: Some excellent points. Thumbs%20Up I recall that in the Rings of Power threads I argued strongly the case that Celebrimbor made his rings in secret from Sauron, and it was only latterly that Sauron had knowledge of them. Given that Sauron tainted the sixteen with his touch I doubt very much if he would have agreed to Celebrimbor making Three that had not been subject to his oversight.

My views were stronlgy contested by several- my good friend Elwing being the most criticalLOL - but I have not changed them.

I'll look out my posts and respost them here. Of course I have to admit to being prejudiced because I have argued -later- that the Three were 'unsullied' and not evil- in opposition to Eladar's contrary thread on the subject : cf
 
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 06/Dec/2008 at 3:10pm
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Did Sauron know about the Three?

Herewith the promised excerpt.
 
C. The Three and the purpose of their creator
 
N.B. Insofar as the raison d'etre of the Three, the Seven ,and the Nine is bound-up with the psychology of the elves, the first part of the introdction- 'What was in their minds?'- is common to both topics C and D
 
What was in their minds?
 
1. In one of those wonderfully pithy lines in which the Master reduces the most complex of issues to a single sentence, he says of the Elves:
"...they wanted to have their cake without eating it." (Letter #131).
 
And that, basically, if you have read many more pages of The Silmarillion, LOTR, Unfinished Tales, and the Letters, really does say it all. So, what did he mean?
 
2. Essentially, the Elves wanted to remember the bliss and perfection of "the West' , but also , to remain in ME:
 "where their prestige as the highest people, above wild elves, dwarves, and Men, was greater than at the bottom of the hierarchy of Valinor. (Letter #131)
 
3. They thus became obsessed with 'fading' , the way in which changes of time were perceived by them, and they sought to prevent this. They also shared the older motives of their race, the beautifying of the earth and the healing of its hurts.
 
4. But this obsession with 'fading', and with beautifying the earth, and healing its hurts had a heavy downside which became their weakness. In wishing to promote these three things the Elves became regretful over things past and demonstrated an unwillingness to change. They began to desire 'power' over things as they are, to stop change,and to keep all things fresh and fair. To recreate  the blissful West in ME.
 
The Making of the Rings of Power
 
5.Thus when Sauron, in the fair form of Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, appeared to the smiths of Ost-in-Edhil, offering both instruction in their craft which would give them this ability, and at the same time seeming to share the elven desire to heal the hurts of the earth, other than Gil-Galad and Elrond, and Galadriel and Celeborn, he found a more than willing audience.
 
6.Sauron found the Elves' weak point in suggesting that, helping one another, they could make Western ME as beautiful as Valinor, and made them angry and hostile towards  those like Gil-Galad and Galadriel who did not share this vision:
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressea, nay even as Valinor." (The Silmarillion)
 
7.In addition under Sauron's tuition they learned many things related to the secret matters of their craft.
 
8.  Moreover he was helped by the fact that in dealing  with the jewel smiths of Eregion he was working  with an ornery bunch of Elves, who had formed themselves into almost a secret society or brotherhood - the Gwaith-i - Mirdain. As such Celebrimbor, their leader, and his Gwaith-i-Mirdain colleagues  had many professional secrets which they did not share with their fellow Elves. Thus Sauron's request that what he and they were doing should remain secret fell on already receptive minds.
 
The Three
 
9. But this secrecy both worked for Sauron and against him. For while he had a hand in the creation of the Seven and the Nine, and perhaps other, unspecified Rings of Power, the Three Celebrimbor made himself - in secret even from Sauron, and with a different power and purpose.But even though  the Three were unsullied by Sauron's hand, because they were products of his instructions, they were ultimately under the control of the One.
 
10.So what were these three and what was their power? Narya- the Ring of Fire - set with a ruby; Nenya- the Ring of Water - set with adamant; Vilya - the Ring of Air - set with a sapphire.
 
11. These three , the creation of the master-craftsman Celebrimbor  - made in secret even from Sauron:
"..were not made as weapons of war or conquest; that is not their power. Those who made them did not desire strength or domination {The Nine}, or hoarded wealth {The Seven} but understanding, making and healing, to preserve all things unstained." (Elrond- LOTR - The Council of Elrond).
 
They were made to fulfil those deep-seated desires of healing the earth from the stains of Morgoth and creating a 'western bliss' in ME.
 
12.But it was not in Sauron's mind to create such a bliss, and when he put on the One, Celebrimbor and the smith's of Eregion knew that had been totally betrayed. Worse than that, under Sauron's persuasive tongue Celebrimbor had effectively ousted Galadriel and Celeborn, and ignored Gil-Galad and Elrond - so the betrayal was doubly painful.
 
13. "Lord what fools these mortals be" says Caliban in 'The Tempest'. He could as well be talliking of the smith's of Eregion. Totally blinded by their obsession with delivering their most heatfelt desires through the Rings of Power, the smith's of Eregion awoke to the cold light of betrayal, complete and utter. There is no question that Celebrimbor was in any way corrupt - he, as had his fellow smiths, accepted Annatar/Sauron literally at face value.
 
14. Horrified at what had happened Celebrimbor went to take council with Galadriel - whom he had once overturned and spurned. But they "failed to find the strength" to destroy the Three (Unfinished Tales) and Celebrimbor gave Nenya to Galadriel and Vilya, and Narya to Gil-Galad to safeguard, meeting an untimely and horrendous death at the hands of Sauron for refusing to disclose where the Three were hidden.
 
15. T. S. Eliot wote in 'Murder in the Cathedral': "The last temptation is the greatest treason, to do the right deed, for the wrong reason." That seems to be a fitting epitaph for Celebrimbor and the elven smiths of Eregion.

A footnote on the Three and the Cosmogony of Rings of Power
One of the aspects of the Cosmogony of Rings of Power is the surrender of personality or character. While not as directly as some, both Celebrimbor and the smith's of Eregion-- "surrendered" some of their personality and character in dealing with Sauron cf. the way they denied all knowledge of what they were doing to their other elven brethren until it was too late, and also the way Celebrimbor dealt with Galadriel and Celeborn. Moreover, as Elwing posted in the first of these threads, by forging the Rings of Power the elves came closest to using 'magic' :"a motive easily corruptible into evil,a lust for domination."
 
Supporting the 'Sauron knew about the Three' theory are (currently) Elwing, Laielinwen, and (perhaps slightly less positively) maiarian man. In the opposing corner, propounding the 'Sauron didn't know about the Three" theory are myself, Aduchil, and Aredhel Feanaro. A battle of the Titans is about to begin!
 
 Definition of what is meant by Rings of Power
 
Gandalf says to Frodo: "In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals.But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous.
 
So we distinguish between at least two groups of Rings,the lesser - which can perhaps be seen as practice runs ( and pre- Sauron), and the Greater. (That there were minor rings is confirmed in Unfinished Tales where we learn that at the sack of the House of the Mirdain Sauron, along with the Nine, took "other lesser works of the Mirdain.")
 
Therefore, excluding the ONE, which was made by Sauron, we have 19 Great Rings of power - the Three, the Seven, and the NIne - all of which were created  - to a greater or lesser degree, using knowledge imparted to the elven-smiths by Sauron, and thus all ultimately under the control of the ONE.
 
But, and here is th $64,000 question- did Sauron have foreknowledge of the creation of the THREE? To this issue we must turn, but we need to create a database before we can argue a case.
 
The Chronolgy of Creation and its aftermath (ROTK App.B ; Unfinished Tales)
 
c. 1500 The Elven smiths having been  instructed by Sauron reach the height of their power and begin the forging of the Rings of Power (ROTK)
c. 1500 Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the Mirdain had begun making the Rings of Power. (Unfinished Tales)
c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion (ROTK)
c. 1600 Sauron forges the One in Orodruin. Celbrimbor perceives his designs.(ROTK)
c 1600-1693 During this time Celebrimbor seeks counsel of Galadriel regarding the Rings of Power. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, 'but they failed to find the strength'. Galadriel  advises that the Three be hidden outside Eregion, and receives Nenya.(Unfinished Tales)
1693 War of the Elves and Sauron. the Three are hidden ( Narya and Vilya are sent to Gil-Galad in Lindon). (ROTK; Unfinished Tales)
1697 Sauron tortures Celebrimbor and then orders his death. Sauron regains the Nine and the "lesser' rings, and learns where the Seven are, (from Celebrimbor under torment)but not the Three. (ROTK; Unfinished Tales)
 
Celbrimbor's ancestry and background  (ROTK App.B; Unfinished Tales)
 
1. Celebrimbor was descended from Feanor the creator of The Silmarils.He was Lord of Eregion and the greatest of the elven smiths in Eregion. He was also close to the Dwarves of Moria (and was responsible for the signs on the great doors of Moria)
 
Aspects of the Three
 
1."The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost soley of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty; they did not confer invisbility." (my bold emphasis) {Letter #131}
 
2. ".....they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One." (my bold emphasis) {The Silmarillion}
 
3. "Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed , because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made  with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose." (My bold emphasis) {Unfinished Tales}
 
 Points in favor of the 'Sauron didn't know about the Three' theory.
1. Gandalf says: "But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous." He doesn't say "only the Three were perilous: Therefore it could be argued that the 'surpassing potency' of the One, was needed as much to control the Seven and the Nine, as it was the Three.
 
2.If we look at the chronology although the elven smiths started on the creation of The Rings of Power after recieving instruction from Sauron in c 1500, he then leaves them alone for over 100 years (until the One is forged). If Celebrimbor embarked in secret on the creation of the Three during this time, Sauron would have no way of knowing - the One was not yet forged.
 
 Moreover, it does not say that the Three were started in 1500 as part of the generic 'Rings of Power' when Sauron was in Eregion,  only that they were completed in 1590. And both The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales tell us that they were forged by Celebrimbor alone.
 
Admittedly Letter # 131 says that the Three were created by the Elves "almost soley of their own imagination," and therefore, by inference, not exclusively so. But those of us who support the theory that says Sauron lacked foreknowledge of the Three are not denying his influence on the creation of the Three. We are arguing that it is de minimis compared with the others - although this is still sufficicient to  allow  control by the One.
 
3. The de minimis argument is further strengthened by the fact that The Seven and the Nine conferred invisibility - a strong mark of Sauron's influence - the Three did not (Letter #131)
 
4.Celebrimbor's ancestry is ignored by virtually all commentators on this topic, yet it is fundamental  to understanding his  psychology and his literally 'unto death" defence of the Three as opposed to the Seven and the Nine.
 
Feanor, the creator of The Silmarils was  a passionate defender of what he had created as were many of his descendants. Why was Celebrimbor so passionate to keep the Three hidden, and not accord the same consideration to the Seven? If he was going to be tortured and murdered, why not keep silent about the Seven, why only the Three?
 
Because they were his, he alone had created them in secret,and Sauron, until the time of putting on the ONE had not known of their existence.They were to Celebrimbor what The Silmarils were to Feanor, and both were  willing to die for their creation ,and protect it until the death, which they both litearally did.
 
5. And finally, what of Sauron's fury. Was this solely because he learned his 'Annatar' mask had been seen through, and hi supposedly trusted ally, Celebrimbor had 'repented and revolted' (Unfinished Tales).Could it not be that his fury was also fueled by the discovery that not only had his disguise slipped totally, but that the 'instructions' that he had given the elves, had been utilized - in secret -  by Celebrimbor,  a descendant of Feanor whose unparralleled hatred of Morgoth was well known, to create Rings of Power about which he , Sauron, knew nothing, and suspected less. And, moreover, Rings of Power which - given the symbolic significance of invisibility - by their very lack of it, challenged his supremacy?
 
We can never write finito with regard to this argument one way or the other,  there isn't enough textual evidence. But I still firmly stand in the 'Sauron didn't know about the Three" corner, with my trusty allies, until a hero comes along with a totally convincing argument and displaces us.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Horse-lord of Edoras
  Edelor Posted: 07/Dec/2008 at 6:59am
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Thanks, halfir. It will take some time to read through the theads, so I will be back when I do,
But do you realise that 'Sauron didn't know about the Three"  means that Celebrimbor was the one who  cheated his collaborator first? "It cheated first, it did! It broke the rules, precious!"
 

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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 07/Dec/2008 at 8:11pm
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LOL Take your time - there's some fascinating stuff there. And some highly specualative propositions!Thumbs%20Up
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Horse-lord of Edoras
  Edelor Posted: 28/Dec/2008 at 5:59am
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So, I have finally read the threads halfir linked to. Here is the homework report Wink:

 

The Elven Rings were Evil {Eladar}; the unsullied Three{(halfir}

I think Eladar was right in his opening post: the Elven Rings were not exactly evil, but they were made with Sauron's know-how and the motive for their making (preservation) was not entirely wholesome.  The Rings altered the natural order of things set by Eru and were indeed "a veiled attack on the gods, an incitement to try to make a separate independent paradise."

 

It was the natural order of things that, living in Arda Marred, the Elves would fade and Men would die. Yet the Elves were displeased with fading exactly in the same way as Men didn't relish the necessity to die. In both cases, to obtain their wishes, they hearkened to the very same crafty Maia and his appealing Morgul devices. I deem it unfair that the Men would be universally blamed, while the Elves would be excused.

 

But all this is not immediately relevant to the question we are discussing now. Halfir's excerpt "Did Sauron know about the Three?", however, is of major importance. ( BTW, halfir, the link at the end of the post http://www.lotrplaza.com/archive/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=46&TopicID=16214&PagePosition=9 - where the replies to this opening post would be - is not working.)

There are some points that I would like to comment upon.

 

"Celbrimbor's ancestry and background 

1. Celebrimbor was descended from Feanor the creator of The Silmarils.He was Lord of Eregion and the greatest of the elven smiths in Eregion. He was also close to the Dwarves of Moria (and was responsible for the signs on the great doors of Moria)"

 

Some more interesting facts: Celebrimbor son of Curufin  son of Feanor was born in Valinor. In HOME 12 "Of Dwarves and Men", there is a following note: "It seems probable that Celebrinbaur (silverfisted, > Celebrimbor) was son of Curufin, but though inheriting his skills he was an Elf of wholly different temper (his mother had refused to take part in the rebellion of Fëanor and remained in Aman with the people of Finarphin)... But Curufin, dearest to his father and chief inheritor of his father's skills, was wedded, and had a son who came with him into exile, though his wife (unnamed) did not. […] During  their dwelling  in  Nargothrond   as  refugees   he had grown to love Finrod and was aghast at the behaviour of his father and would not go with him. He later became a great friend of Celeborn and Galadriel. - cf: HoME Vol XII, pp. 317-318

 

So, firstly, Celebrimbor was a Calaquende, with great power both in "the Seen and the Unseen." Secondly, it is likely that Celebrimbor left Valinor as already a full-grown Elf (otherwise I guess he would have had no choice but to remain behind with his mother). Therefore it is also likely that he learned his craft directly from his grandfather Feanor, maybe he even knew Aule - thus he indeed could have some rare skills that even Sauron lacked.

 

Then, there is the question of the Oath. If Celebrimbor were a full-grown Elf at the time of the rebellion, then he could have taken the Oath along with his father. Did he or did he not? It may be very important - as the Oath was a terrible one. If he did take the Oath, but broke it later in Nargothrond, then "the Everlasting Darkness" was awaiting him after death - something that may be worse than even Feanor's imprisonment in Mandos.  I believe in this case Celebrimbor was even more likely to do everything to prevent fading and the necessity to return to Valinor.

 

 

"What was in their minds?"

.They thus became obsessed with 'fading' , the way in which changes of time were perceived by them, and they sought to prevent this. They also shared the older motives of their race, the beautifying of the earth and the healing of its hurts.

 

I like this answer. But if we go a little further, this general idea could be subdivided into several problems to solve:

 

1. The problem with individual fading. The oldest members of the Mirdain would be more in danger. Likely the original idea (the first step in the creation of the rings) was to give a Ring to each of the oldest Elves to prevent the fading of the hroa.  The Lesser Rings had not enough power for that (as we know from Gandalf's words at the Council of Elrond: "The power of the ring had lengthened [Gollum's] years far beyond their span; but that power only the Great Rings wield."), but the Nine and later the Seven were already sufficient for that task.

 

2. The problem with the Lingerers and the Houseless. Likely, by the time of the forging of the Rings, quite a few Elves had already faded, but still remained in ME, hanging around among their kin and their loved ones. I guess those who came to ME with Feanor would be much less inclined to leave for Valinor than an average Elf.  Could the Rings somehow restore the faded bodies, make them visible again? I don't know if it were possible. But what was possible was to help the other Elves to communicate with the Lingerers, see them. Not all Elves had natural access into the Spirit World - only the Calaquendi among them. The others, born in ME, needed rings to gain this access into the Spirit world. And that is I believe the explanation why all the early Rings (all the Lesser ones, the 9 and the 7) provided easy transfer into the Spirit World. It seems this ability was Annatar's contribution to the project, but still he had to explain why it was needed to Celebrimbor, and Celebrimbor had to agree to it.

 

3. The beautifying of the Earth and healing of its hurts. This task needed strong Rings, acting not only on individual level, but also effecting the environment around the wielder. I believe, among the 19, only the Three were fully up to this task. Only the Three were able to make paradise-like enclaves with warped time, like in Lorien and Rivendell. (However, I must note that sometimes the discussion arises about the phenomenon of the Morgul Vale - whether time was also warped there, and whether this peculiar environment - the magic stream, white flowers, pale glow of the fortress - was the work of the Nine Rings).

 

Actually, if the Elves's  wishes included the third task, then Annatar had to consider it - at least I am sure it had been discussed. So, I guess, Annatar at least had some hint that the Elves would want to make something like the Three.

 

The Chronolgy of Creation and its aftermath (ROTK App.B ; Unfinished Tales)

I have to add two entries:

1200. Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. (App B)

 between 1350 and 1400. So great became [Annatar's] hold on the Mírdain that at length he persuaded them to revolt against Galadriel and Celeborn and to seize power in Eregion. Galadriel thereupon left Eregion and passed through Khazad-dûm to Lórinand. (UT)

c. 1500 The Elven smiths having been  instructed by Sauron reach the height of their power and begin the forging of the Rings of Power (ROTK)

c. 1500 Sauron himself departed from Eregion about the year 1500, after the Mirdain had begun making the Rings of Power. (Unfinished Tales)

c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion (ROTK)

c. 1600 Sauron forges the One in Orodruin. Celbrimbor perceives his designs.(ROTK)

c 1600-1693 During this time Celebrimbor seeks counsel of Galadriel regarding the Rings of Power. They should have destroyed all the Rings of Power at this time, 'but they failed to find the strength'. Galadriel  advises that the Three be hidden outside Eregion, and receives Nenya.(Unfinished Tales)

1693 War of the Elves and Sauron. the Three are hidden ( Narya and Vilya are sent to Gil-Galad in Lindon). (ROTK; Unfinished Tales)

1697 Sauron tortures Celebrimbor and then orders his death. Sauron regains the Nine and the "lesser' rings, and learns where the Seven are, (from Celebrimbor under torment)but not the Three. (ROTK; Unfinished Tales)

 

So, Galadriel had departed Eregion long before Celebrimbor and Annatar started on the Great Rings, but likely while they were forging the Lesser ones. The Nine and the Seven were made shortly before 1500; the Three were made in 1500-1590.

 

I believe the question of major importance (and one left entirely to speculation) is why Annatar had departed from Eregion in 1500. It was not because of Galadriel, who was long gone. In their conflict of 1350-1400 Sauron had been the victor, and Celebrimbor was on his side against the woman he secretly loved.

 

 

So, was there some quarrel with Celebrimbor in 1500? Then Annatar could have left in anger and Celebrimbor could start making the Three in secret and in defiance of his former collaborator. But then why would Celebrimbor feel so hurt and betrayed in 1600? I have a gut feeling that back in 1500 they had parted on friendly terms- that would make Annatar's betrayal much more dramatic and painful.

 

More likely, IMO, by 1500, Sauron grew impatient to finish the long-drawn project and start working on his own creation - the One Ring. In this case, he could simply tell Celebrimbor: "Well, you finish here on your own, old friend, now you have skills enough, and I have other very important matters to attend to".

 

 

Why would Sauron be opposed to more Rings? After all, ALL of them would be bound to the One. More rings simply meant more enslaved Elves. Under the One, the wielders of the Three would have been manipulated and corrupted regardless of the properties of their Rings. OK, there was no direct "Sauron's taint" in the Three. But it only became important when the Three were wielded in the absence of the One. And, no doubt, back in the Second Age, Sauron never imagined losing the Ruling Ring.

 

But why didn't the Three confer invisibility? What was Celebrimbor's goal in making the Three ALONE? -  Here is my answer - or my speculation, if you like. The Three, unlike the 7 and 9, were tailor-made for specific persons, neither of whom needed a Ring to get access into the Spirit World. They already had this access, by virtue of their very nature.

 

One of the Three - and likely the strongest of them, Vilya, was meant for Celebrimbor himself, a Calaquende Elf. I believe he was not disinterested enough not to make the strongest ring for himself.

 

The other - Nenya, was likely from the very start made for Galadriel, another Calaquende. Though not the strongest of the Three, it is sometimes called "The Chief of the Three". I think Nenya was indeed the summit of Celebrimbor's craft: for his lady-love he made the most beautiful ring using not gold, sullied by Morgoth,  but pure Mithril and adorned it by the most precious of stones, adamant - pure white, hard and indomitable - much like Galadriel herself.

 

Suppose (hypothetically) that the Three were made by Annatar and Celebrimbor together: would Annatar ever agree to give the best Ring to Galadriel? (Perhaps he would, because it was a Trojan horse sort of gift, but Celebrimbor had no means of knowing it.) He knew there was no love lost between the two, so Annatar could well oppose to giving a ring to Galadriel. Now when Celebrimbor made the Ring all alone, he could present it to anyone he chose, including Galadriel.  Also (and it is quite important) Celebrimbor wanted it to be only his gift, - his personal gift for the lady he loved and who he had offended. It was a peace offering as well.

 

And here we come to an interesting question: for whom was the third of the Three - Narya- made? Please, don't laugh too much at my unexpected hypothesis,  but I think Celebrimbor may have made Narya for his dear friend Annatar, the one who had inspired the whole project, and again the one who needed no invisibility option for an access to the Spirit World.  Wouldn't it be fitting if Celebrimbor expressed his gratitude by presenting his friend with the Ring of his own craftsmanship? And isn't the Ruby, the stone of Fire, fitting for the former pupil of Aule, the one who knew how to kindle hearts and lead others to greatest achievements? (Also perhaps there was something in this Ring that made it more suitable for a Maia. Just this consideration may have prompted Cirdan to give it to one of the Istari).

 

I think by 1600 Celebrimbor was quite pleased with himself. He expected Annatar to return, recieve his gift and be impressed and proud of his pupil. H expected Galadriel to receive her gift and forgive him and have to admit that her misgivings about Annatar had been groundless . And then they would all live happily ever after in peace and friendship in the healed world.  But lo, it was not to be. Imagine his shock, when instead Celebrimbor heard "Ash nazg drabatuluk" and knew himself betrayed by his dearest friend Annatar…

 


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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 28/Dec/2008 at 1:43pm
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Edelor: A great post to which I will respond in detail over the New Year break. You have been tribbed.
 
However, the title of Eladar's post refers to the Rings- and in stating they were 'evil' he is directly contradicted by Tolkien's statement that they were
'unsullied'.
 
And no one dispuites the fact that the elves were wrong in what they did- but their intent per se- was not evil. So, as I did before, I reject Eladar's contetion  about the Three and my rebuttal thread provides more than enough information as to why that is the case.
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Horse-lord of Edoras
  Edelor Posted: 28/Dec/2008 at 11:22pm
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Thank you, halfir. Smile
 
Yes Eladar's title is too strong: "evil" is not the right word. But still Tolkien didn't consider  the elves blameless.
Anyway, it is not the sort of dispute I am good at, or I like to participate in. Tolkien's views on what is good or evil often clash with my own. I also would have tried to do something against fading and against the necessity to die, not accepted it meekly as a good guy should, according to the Professor. Thus I can sympathize with Celebrimbor, with a random nazgul, or with Ar-Pharazon.Wink
 
I am eagerly awaiting your reply to my big post. Happy New Year!

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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 29/Dec/2008 at 7:14pm
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Happy New Year to you too! My response will be given tomorrow,. And I am pleased we are both agreed that another debate on the Three- apart from comment on your particular comprehensive post- is not appropriate in this thread- for whatever reason- which is essentially dedicated to the gemstones of the Great rRngs of Power, and what they might have been- outwith the Three!Thumbs%20Up

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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 14/Jan/2009 at 4:46pm
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Well, clearly 'tomorrow ' has somewhat come and gone, and my response to your excellent post has been-like many other posts and responses promised in other forums, been delayed.
 
But I will most certainly make some comments as you have made some fascinating points- but I cannot - at the moment- confirm what that timeframe will be. However, nil desperandum- I will respond.Thumbs%20Up
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Horse-lord of Edoras
  Edelor Posted: 14/Jan/2009 at 6:09pm
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No problem, halfir. Take all the time you need. Smile

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Steward of Isengard
  Maiarian Man Posted: 15/Jan/2009 at 6:02pm
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Sorry to jump in front of Halfir, but I wanted to add my two cents, and maybe a third. There are some great posts in here about the meaning and implication of the word gem, as well as typical symbology associated with various gems. But there's a comment from Parmardil's initial post that I think goes understated. At the very least, I haven't appreciated it enough in the past. There is a lot to be learned from the use of gems for the 19 just from the internal history of middle earth (On a similar note, we don't have to look at symbology to find out why the One Ring was best made out of pure gold, as Tolkien provides an internal explanation: all matter on Middle-Earth was stained by Morgoth, but especially gold. Symbology doesn't explain the story, the story explains symbology!).

Parmardil writes: “Finally, we must remember that the Elven-smiths of Eregion were Noldor Elves: and it was Noldor Elves that frst discovered and carved and shaped the earth-gems: 'They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor. '(cfr. Silmarillion, chapt. 5 Of Eldamar)” Now let me ramble.

I want to look more at what Tolkien has to say about the history of gems. And it's really interesting because he clearly cared about getting this right over the entire textual history of his Middle-earth mythos, and it also implies something profound about why the good rings had gems, and not the Evil one. The most obvious proof that Tolkien cared about gems and jewelry is that they pop up very frequently in his writing (let's see, LotR and the Sil are basically just stories about jewelry; There's the Elessar, the poems about Earendil that have him decked out in jewels--e.g. errantry). The following passages will also show that the origin of jewels was a small, but important and ever changing and rechanging issue in the mythos. He clearly thought this was something he needed to get right.

Parmardil's quote is one of several from the Published Silmarillion. Of Aule, Tolkien writes in the Valaquenta: “His are the gems that lie deep in the Earth and the gold that is fair in the hand, no less than the walls of the mountains and the basins of the sea” (Valaquenta). In “Ch1, Beginning of Days,” he writes “The Noldor also it was who first achieved the making of gems.” And finally, in “Ch. 5 Of Eldamar,” he writes: And it came to pass that the masons of the house of Finwë, quarrying in the hills after stone (for they delighted in the building of high towers), first discovered the earth-gems, and brought them forth in countless myriads; and they devised tools for the cutting and shaping of gems, and carved them in many forms. They hoarded them not, but gave them freely, and by their labour enriched all Valinor.”

It's interesting that these quotes are not entirely consistent, something which is even more evident when you look at the actual texts in HoME X. Here, there is a clear tension between whether the Noldor invented gems, or just found them and made them prettier. Christopher suggest that the latter (just finding them) was the final(ist) idea.   But it's clearly not any better formulated than the former idea. In Ainulindale, text C, Tolkien writes: “And the Noldor it was who achieved the invention of gems, which were not in the world before their coming.”

Before moving on to earlier passages in BolT, I will quickly explain why this is important. First, the tension in the early post-LotR texts suggests that Tolkien, while writing LotR, probably knew that in order to get his mythos just right, there was a good chance the Noldor would have to invent gems themselves after coming to Aman.

Second, the idea that gems were created in Aman would be of rather profound importance in itself. Aman was the Valar's attempt to create a land that was unstained by Melkor—whose evil had literally infiltrated the very physical substance of middle-earth. As such, the matter of Aman was pure, and the matter of Middle-earth prone to evil and decay. If the Noldor created gems from the substance of Aman, they would also be pure—not just pretty. Meanwhile, as mentioned above, gold is especially unpure, having been especially stained by Morgoth's evil. Unsurprising then that the Elven creations (the 19) would have gems, but not Sauron's. There is a profound difference between jewelry decorated with gems and plain pure gold in Tolkien's world (wonder if they used gold wedding bands? Might debunk my theory a little).

Now to BoLT, which shows Tolkien's passions for gems was not just general, but on a rather specific level. The BoLT explanation of how the Noldoli invented gems is far more detailed, to the extent that (as Christopher points out), the Silmarils barely stand out:

“These pearls were their model, and the lore of Aule and the magic of the Valar were their tools, and all the most lovely things of the substance of the Earth the matters of their craft – and therefrom did the Noldoli with great labour invent and fashion the first gems. Crystals did they make of the waters of the springs shot with the lights of Silpion; amber and chrysoprase and topaz glowed beneath their hands, and garnets and rubies they wrought, making their glassy substance as Aule had taught them but dyeing them with the juices of roses and red flowers, and to each they gave a heart of fire. Emeralds some made of the water of the creek of Kor and glints among the grassy glades of Valinor, and sapphires did they fashion in great profusion, [?tingeing] them with the airs of Manwe; amethysts there were and moonstones, beryls and onyx, agates of blended marbles and many lesser stones, and their hearts were very glad, nor were they content with a few, but made them jewels in immeasurable number till all the fair substances were well nigh exhausted and the great piles of those gems might not be concealed but blazed in the light like beds of brilliant flowers. Then took they those pearls that had and some of well nigh all their jewels and made a new gem of a milky pallor shot with gleams like echoes of all other stones, and this they thought very fair, and they were opals; but still some laboured on, and of starlight and the purest water-drops, of the dew of Silpion, and the thinnest air, they made diamonds, and challenged any to make fairer.” (BoLT, after which Feanor makes the Silmarils)

Sorry for the long quote, but I wanted to leave everybody with the picture that Tolkien enjoyed writing in detail about the origin of these gems, and was not afraid to name as many gems as possible.   He does this again at least one other place in BoLT, for the “Fall of Gondolin”: “Every shield of that battalion was of the blue of the heavens and its boss a jewel built of seven gems, rubies, and amethysts and sapphires, emeralds, chysoprase, topaz, and amber, but an opal of great size was set on their helms.”

I guess that makes it even more of a surprise that he doesn't describe the gems of the 19—unless the important thing is just they had gems, not which gems they had (other than the Three).
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 15/Jan/2009 at 6:13pm
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Maiarian Man: Great to see you back and posting. And if your contributions are going to be of this value and interest feel free to 'jump in front of' me, anytime.LOL A lot of food for thought there.Thumbs%20Up And a trib is in order for widening and refocusing our perspective.
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Horse-lord of Edoras
  Edelor Posted: 16/Jan/2009 at 1:17am
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Maiarian Man -a great post, so very informative. Thumbs%20Up

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Steward of Isengard
  Maiarian Man Posted: 17/Jan/2009 at 2:19pm
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Thanks halfir--and Edelor also. It's nice to be looking at this stuff again, though I never can foresee much time I can give it going forward. Hopefully, at least a little bit.
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 17/Jan/2009 at 3:39pm
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Maiarian Man: Whatever time you can give is appreciated- you are always one of our most seminal and thoughtful contributors and it's great to see you posting again.Thumbs%20Up
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Labourer of Minas Tirith
  Celebrad Posted: 25/Apr/2009 at 9:29am
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Although this may be a bit off the subject of the 19 rings mentioned i think it would be interesting to know what kind gem ( if there was one ) was on the ring that Ganfalf saw Saruman wearing (sorry if your including this in the 19 already).
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 26/Apr/2009 at 11:03pm
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Celebrad: The ring worn by Saruman was not one of the Great Rings of Power - so not one of the 19 which are otherwise accounted for, and it is clearly not the One!beam It is not described in a way that would enable us to know what gemstone it bore- if any, either in the published text or the drafts.
 
Celebrad: The ring worn by Saruman was not one of the Great Rings of Power - so not one of the 19 which are otherwise accounted for, and it is clearly not the One!beam It is not described in a way that would enable us to know what gemstone it bore- if any, either in the published text or the drafts.
 
You might, however, be interested in the following threads:
 
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Labourer of Minas Tirith
  Celebrad Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 3:44am
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I know that the One ring was the only one that didn't contain a gem it's just that there's no great explaination or description of it (or i might just have to look over that part again). Also i thought someone who knew more abour gems could guess it based on Sarumans nature or where he lived.
Is it also possible that it could be a heirloom of Isildur, although unlikely it's not impossible, as in UT it says that Saruman found more heirlooms of Isildur and most probably burned his body. I know that there is no doubt sufficient knowledge to dislodge this idea but maybe Saruman was jealous of it when he found and took out of pride and mockery, then lied and called himself 'Saruman Ringmaker'. This is a very vivid idea i know but it just occured to me how would Saruman make this ring of his
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 3:49am
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Read the threads referenced above to get responses to some of the questions you have asked -particularly the term Ring-maker -which is another name for Sauron!
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Horse-lord of Edoras
  Edelor Posted: 27/Apr/2009 at 5:27pm
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I think Saruman made an attempt to make a new Ruling Ring, but has obviously failed. Therefore I think the Ring on his finger likely had no gem, as it was the feature of the One. Gandalf at least mentions no gem.

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New Soul
  Annatar Rex Posted: 03/May/2009 at 8:44am
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The 9 and the 7. The rings were not evil in their conception or construction. The Elves would never have had a hand in the making of such rings.
They were created with a different pupose than the 3.
They were for the acquisition of Power, wealth, crafting....
 
It should be noted ALL the rings of power were beautiful to look upon. This can be taken as a given seeing that Elves had a hand in the making. Some depictions would have the 9 as being sinister and harsh - black/grey/spikes/"redeye" gems.
 
Sourced from a few websites... somewhere...
(it is very difficult to get references to gems that encourage/promote the aquisition of power and wealth)
 

Agate - variety of colors - strength, courage, support and security

Amethyst - purple - meditation, intuition, relaxation

Carnelian - red - sexual/creative, energy, protection

Lapis - blue - vitality, virility, strength, communication, creativity

Rutilated quartz - increases ESP

Tigers Eye - brown/gold - power, will, insight, centering

Turquoise - aqua - strengthens body

Aventurine: Hones your mental skills, represents money and is a gambling talisman. It strengthens eyesight & enhances intelligence
 
Jade: A symbol of prosperity
 
Moonstone: A visionary stone, reduces tendency towards tunnel vision, helps to achieve ones desires

Sodalite: Stimulates use of creativity
 
Unakite: Enhances one's personal power, helps one control their fate and not be controlled by others fate
 
Citrine - merchant stone. Assists in the acquiring and maintaining of wealth.
 
Peridot - money stone. Attracts wealth
 
Fluorite - innovation and inventiveness
 
Fire opal - money
 
Green garnet - money and luck
Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name
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Forester of Lothlorien
  emane Posted: 06/Jun/2009 at 8:52am
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according to annatar rex, i would say that nenya had a tiger stone.huh?
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New Soul
  Annatar Rex Posted: 07/Jun/2009 at 12:23am
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In all fairness there are as many meanings assigned to a multitude of stones as there are grains of sand....

 

The best we can say about all the fings is that they were very fair to look upon and that none had an evil power per se.

Although some did have a shadown upon them from Sauron's hand in the making

 

As to type of gem...?? Who knows!

Pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name
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Porter of Minas Tirith
  Hallas C. Pehwarin Posted: 23/Oct/2009 at 4:45am
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In reading the books the three elven rings Vilya, Nenya, and Narya were the only ones discussed at length in the Appendixes including the One Ring. As to the Nine belonging to the men who turned into Nazgul, and the Seven belonging to the Dwarves were only given a passing description by Tolkien unless I am mistaken?Embarrassed
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Commander of Mordor
  The Gingerbread Man Posted: 25/Oct/2009 at 4:53pm
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Actually, more detail about the other Rings of Power are given in the Silmarillion, Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age.Dead
"Form is emptiness, and emptiness is form"
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Vána
  Lanthir Lamath Posted: 25/Oct/2009 at 6:43pm
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I'd actually missed the thread when Halfir posted it, so it's with delight that I took note of everything that's written. And I for one would like to nominate a stone that I haven't yet read about... though I may have missed it, since there is a lot of interesting material.

And that gem would be... coral. As MM's post demonstrates, pearl, while not a stone, is not beyond Tolkien's use. What then, of Coral? Something that would arguably appeal to all parties involved:

To elves and men, it is a thing of the sea, hence underlining the love Numenorean men had for it, and the link to Ulmo_ the Vala whom the elves had the greatest contact with, since their departure from Valinor. And yet, as we know, Melkor hated the sea... it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to imagine that Sauron hated it too, and that hence, gifting someone with something that at a fundamental level is the corpse of sea creatures would, perhaps, seem to him appropriate.
With regard to dwarves... I have recently become aware of the existance of gold coral, which is in fact a bleached version of Black coral. It seems in some way appropriate, if the purpose of the Dwarven rings was, if I read correctly to "create wealth". Mind, I don't really think that coral was given to dwarves_ it is a very delicate substance, easily damaged, and would not, I think, appeal to someone as hardy as dwarves. However it is entirely possible that this contributed to selecting it as a ring-gem in the first place: multiple possibilities.

And as to symbolisms? I do not have access to Halfir's excellent sources, however, the Encyclopedia of Gemstones has coral pegged down as "a symbol of youth, health and hope" (http://www.all-that-gifts.com/se/coral.html). In addition, that page tells us that it is "It aids in the safe crossing of rivers, passages through tempests. It excites nerve power, brilliancy and gladness and is a true health-giver. Note that coral loses its powers when broken". This also fits with the humans very well, since, as we know, many of them turned their efforts to the prolongation of life... and safe passage through tempest would also be interesting for tall sea-kings.
Additionally, if we recall the tale of Aldarion and Erendis, the line of Elros had a much longer life span than other bloodlines, even by Numenorean standards. Enhanced health should prolong life... granting the... glamour... of the bearer of a coral ring among his peers. And that's why a man who was wise and learned would accept a coral ring in the first place... because it is difficult to see the sinister side of walking around with a calcified body on your finger, when faced with so much positive potential.

It strikes me however that "safe crossing of rivers" might be more than just incidental... I think the Nazgul could not cross rivers unless they were with the Lord of the Nazgul; if we accept that coral is... less than impossible... we can also cross the bridge and suggest that it was that particular ring.

I am not so much dwelling on what kind of negative properties it might have had, because... it's difficult to find that sort of thing on the web. And I make no representations that Halfir's sources will match mine!Shocked But regardless, I think that if a gemstone has both good and bad properties, then surely it is the context and the person that wears it, as well as, in this case, its makers, that ultimately define its meaning and properties.


Edited by Lanthir Lamath - 25/Oct/2009 at 6:47pm
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 25/Oct/2009 at 9:01pm
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"It aids in the safe crossing of rivers,
 
Well clearly the Nazgul rings did not have a coral stone then!Shocked
 
In a comment in The Hunt for the Ring  -UT (Unifinshed Tales) CT (Christopher Tolkien} writes:
 
My father nowhere explained the Ringwraith's fear of water and he goes on to say that it is not made clear how they crossed other rivers and that his father had said that the idea that they were fearful of water was difficult to sustain.
 
The occurrence of them attempting  the Bruinen - which somewhat contradicts the 'fear of water' argument, is perhaps explained by a note in Marquette MSS4/2/36 - The Hunt for the Ring {quoted in Hammond&Scull LOTR Companion pp. 195-6} :
 
After the Witch-king breaks Frodo's sword, he, Khamnul, and possibly some others dare to ford the water 'for he is desperate, knows that the Ring is about  to escape to Rivendell.....
 
The point to note here is that the WK is desperate- and -in extremis - attempts to break the 'ban' on crossing running water.
 
But, as Tolkien himslef observed the idea was difficult to sustain.
 
And, a further note on coral. In Classical antiquity it was used as an amulet, a preservative against the evil eye,which is something of a paradox as Greek legend has coral springing from drops of blood spilled by Medusa!Wink (Penguin Dicitonary of Symbols entry under coral}
 
And nice to see you posting in Lore and especially AL. Dead
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Vána
  Lanthir Lamath Posted: 25/Oct/2009 at 11:44pm
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 "'Nazgul', he whispered. "The Nine are abroad again. They have crossed the River secretly and are moving westward. They have taken the guise of riders in black.[...]" (The Council of Elrond, FoTR).

Clearly the Nazgul can cross water in non-desperate circumstances, even if, as you say, they fear it.
Of course, if I were a Nazgul, and I was terrified of crossing a river, and someone told me coral makes it safer, I'd hide a few handfuls in my cloak's lining... that's what I meant previously. Embarrassed

As for posting in AL... dearie me, is this where I am? *slinks back into den*. Shocked
Jokes aside, thank ye.Big smile
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 26/Oct/2009 at 12:04am
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Yes, I think it should be made clear that they could cross on bridges easily enough- it is a fear of having physical contact with running water that is being alluded to- something that has a faily widespread application in RL myth and legend as far as vampires are concerned, for example.
 
In Note 3 to The Hunt For The Ring -UT Tolkien notes:
 
At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before them , had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Gorfindel and Aragorn. (my bold emphasis}.
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Counsellor of Imladris
  Laitaine Adarlas Posted: 28/Oct/2009 at 2:20pm
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This thread has just come to my notice.  I cannot claim to have read the whole thread yet (too many long posts that derserve more attention than what I can give on my lunch break) but it is definately a job for the weekend.  But one thought has come to me.
 
Amethyst - temperance and a ward against enchantment
 
Given that Sauron created the Rings with the intention of enslaving/enchanting them to his will, I think we can assume that none of them contained an amethyst.  I cannot even believe that he would adorn one so even for the challenge of it because Sauron seems a cowardly being.  He runs away from judgement by the Valar and is frightened into attacking Minas Tirith early by the appearance of Aragorn.
 
Perhaps he is not all that sure of his power.  I believe there is a quote in the book, by Gandalf maybe, stating that Sauron's biggest fear is that someone else will claim the One Ring and dethrone him.  Given that view, I don't think he would have allowed a gem that would possibly make his corruption more difficult.
 
Are there any gems that are pretty but do not actually have any attributes associated with them?  I reckon he would have stuck with those.
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 28/Oct/2009 at 2:41pm
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In the opening post I focused on the deliberate use of the term 'proper':
 
It would be interesting to know what these were, as gemstones have their own 'lore'. We know of those in the Three, but our sources are silent as to those in the sixteen, other than telling us that each ring, other than the One, had its own stone: "The Nine, the Seven, and the Three, had each their proper gem. Not so the One."  (Gandalf- FOTR - The Council of Elrond). (My bold emphasis).
 
The use of the word 'proper' is interesting. Why not just,  "each their own gem"?Remember Tolkien was very particular about the words and phrases he used in LOTR -he is on record as saying he weighed and balanced each of the 600,000 words he used before actually using them! Now 'proper' might just mean distinctive, but it also might mean 'appropriate to the particular function of that specific Ring' - thus linking back to the gem-lore referred to earlier. We will never know for sure, but how do others gloss this phrase?
 
And then went on to quote at lenght Parmardil's erudite observations on the term.
 
So, from the scanty information we have, we can perhaps conclude that the gems of the Three were the "proper" gem for their respective Ring in that they symbolized or actually determined the peculiar manifestation of its preserving and healing power, something the gems set in the Seven and the Nine seem to lack; being "just" capable of bringing riches and slowing change all in the same way
The Seven and Nine, moreover, are represented as displaying their action on their bearers only and not on Nature itself: they kindle and satisfy the greed for wealth, they enhance the natural power of the possessor (this also the Three do), they confer invisibility to and prolong the life of Men, finally enslaving their will and changing their biological nature
 
So I would question the idea that the stones used were ones that do not actually have any attributes associated with them, if my 'appropriate to the particular function of that specific Ring' is correct.
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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Jester of Dol Amroth
  ceedawn Posted: 01/Feb/2010 at 4:23am
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fascinating ring-lore; especially liked Maiarian Man's interpretation of ''why and for whom''  celebrimbor made the three. it made beautiful sense.

a possible list of men and dwarve ring gems:

the seven; foundations of the dwarvish hoards;
 peridot- - olive green-- attracts wealth
 jade- - green-- prosperity
 citrine-- golden yellow-- acquiring wealth
 green garnet- green-- money and luck
 fire opal- -fire red/orange-- money
 aventurine-- green-- wealth, leadership
 imperial topaz-- deep golden yellow-- fulfillment, prosperity

the nine: given to ambitious king's of men
 blue topaz-- blue-- courage, overcoming obstacles
 tigers eye-- black and gold-- power, will, insight
 bloodstone--red and black-- courage,iron-clad strength
 lapis lazuli-- blue-- vitality, virility, access sacred knowledge
 garnet-- deep red-- power, masculinity,aggression
 black onyx-- black-- strength, energy, leadership
 carnelian---red-- ambition, drive,sexual, creative energy
 tourmaline-- green,pink, black-- discernment and insight
 amethyst-- purple-- nobility, magic, arrogance

the 3 elven ring gems, representing air, water and fire, mirror the silmarils final resting places.

also, a small addition to meaning of ''proper'': well- formed, handsome, fair,( king james english)
 
aloha
never laugh at live dragons!
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Gardener of Lothlorien
  Nagalnait Posted: 06/Feb/2010 at 4:56am
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I read what you wrote and I agree but why dose Lord Elrond's rings have a blue Gem as it's stone. Air is not blue is it? I can see that a ruby is kind of like that color of fire but if Tolkien could have mage the blue gem a different color what would you think it would have been? But I do love Lord Elrond's ring I have one what ring would you own if you could?
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Irmo
  halfir Posted: 06/Feb/2010 at 4:31pm
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Nagainait wrote:
 
Air is not blue is it?
 
 
From the 'header' post we get:
 
Of the Three Rings we know the stones: sapphire for the Vilya, the Ring of Air; diamond for Nenya, the Ring of Water and ruby for Narya, the Ring of Fire. Air is the element of Manwë, the lord of the Valar and probably for this motive Vilya is the mightiest of the Rings. We do not hear anything of its powers: the only (very thin) reference, perhaps, to its action is that in Imladris, where Elrond, its keeper, dwelt, "the stars of heaven most brightly shone." (Silmarillion, chapt. 5)
 
Manwe is related to air, wind, and clouds, and is very much the 'king' of the celestial realm. Indeed his sceptre is made of sapphire. {The Silmarillion- Of The Beginning of Days}.So we should not give too restricted an interpretation to 'air' -using it more in its 'celestial' connotation, rather than limiting it to the air that we breathe!Big smile
 
In Arda his delight is in the winds and the clouds, and in all regions of the air, from the heights to the depths, from the utmost borders of the Veil of Arda to the breezes that blow in the grass.{The Silmarillion - Valaquenta}
He that would foil me must use such weapons as I do, for I have not fed my readers with straw, neither will I be confuted with stubble.
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