"No Living Man am I"

[Burnt Toast]

This is the first topic I've ever posted in the lore forum, and potentially the first time I've ever posted in it. I've always lurked here and there, but my lore skills are not particularly up to scratch, and to be honest, even now, I'm a bit nervous of looking foolish . But how else do we learn?

My question is this (maybe I've missed something obvious, or this has already been hashed out too many times, swear to Eru I'm not trolling, I'm really curious)--

In the confrontation betwixt the Witch-King and Éowyn, in which he states, "No living man may hinder me,"
and she responds, "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman..."

Is it literally meant that no living man may kill/hinder him? Is the specificity of 'living' important?
Is the fact that Éowyn is a woman what allows her to do what she does?
Or is that just a dramatic moment, and circumstances lend themselves such that a bold warrior such as she (or it could have been anyone) is able to destroy him?


Thanks in advance for your discussion/responses!

[Lail]

Don't feel foolish at all! This is an interesting question and I believe it has been brought up in Lore before and I think there has been some interesting discussions on it in the past.

Definitely not a lore expert here, and someone better-informed than me will be along soon, I am sure, but I believe there was a prophecy which stated that no living man could kill the Witch-King and thus when Eowyn, a woman, and Merry, a hobbit, both co-killed the Witch-King, they fulfilled this prophecy. So I believe that yes, the fact that Eowyn was a woman and Merry was a hobbit were part of what allowed them to do what they did and therefore it was crucial that they both made it to the battle despite all the things barring them doing so.

For me, this brings up a follow-up question. As you said was the "living" part important? For example, could the non-living King of the Dead equally have killed the Witch-King?

I also wonder how the Witch-King was made aware of this prophecy in order for him to say it to Eowyn on the battlefield. Can anyone tell us?

[Boromir88]

Welcome to the lore forum @Lucifer. Bear with me, since I'm pretty rusty, so we may both look foolish here.

Is it literally meant that no living man may kill/hinder him? Is the specificity of 'living' important?

That seems to be the big question and Tolkien having a little Shakespeare-inspired Macbeth with a prophecy. Does that mean someone who was a "living man" could have killed the Witch-King? What's the meaning of the 'prophecy?' Well, it started by something Glorfindel stated to the King of Gondor, Earnur:

"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." These words many remembered; but Earnur was angry, desiring only to be avenged for his disgrace. Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion

In the T.A. 2050 Earnur rides off to Minas Morgul to answer the challenge of the Witch-King and is lost forever.

Glorfindel says "not by the hand of man will he fall." The Witch-King says "No living man will hinder me." So perhaps there's a game of telephone going on, where the message gets distorted down the line. It's interesting that it's said the Witch-King feared the ruling Steward Boromir:

Boromir son of Denethor (after whom Boromir of the Nine Walkers was later named) defeated them and regained Ithilien; but Osgiliath was finally ruined, and its great stone-bridge was broken. No people dwelt there afterwards. Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-King feared him. He was noble and fair of face, a man strong in body and in will, but he received a Morgul-wound in that war which shortened his days, and he became shrunken with pain and died twelve years after his father. Appendix A: The Stewards

Around T.A 2043 Glorfindel tells Earnur not by the hand of man will the Witch-King fall.

In T.A. 2475 Osgiliath is ruined, it is said the Witch-King feared a living man (the ruling Steward Boromir). But Boromir is dealt a Morgul-wound by the Witch-King and dies from it, T.A. 2489. Perhaps after killing a man he feared, the Witch-King feels more arrogant, and boastful. So, come TA 3019 (over 900 years after Glorfindel's prophecy) at the Battle of Pelennor Fields the Witch-King claims "no living man may hinder me."

I don't think this answers your specific question, may even leave us with more questions, but just to provide a bit of context for how this all began.

[Winddancer]

Not to send the discussion elsewhere, but some interesting facts here: https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questio ... ut-his-dea

[Elenhir]

A prophecy is just like looking back in history, except instead at looking behind you, you are looking forward. It tells you the way things happen, so as soon as you start talking about what could happen, it becomes irrelevant. The last time you were out buying groceries, there was probably something at the store you didn't buy. Could you have bought one of those items, even though you didn't? Absolutely. Likewise, the next time you go the store, there will be something you don't buy that you could easily buy. It just won't happen. The weird part about a prophecy is knowing in advance. So when we're dealing with hypothetical other situations of what could happen, we throw the prophecy right out. It only applies in the strict truth of what did/does/will happen, and once we are no longer binding ourselves to that particular path of events, we don't really care what did/does/will happen in that particular path of events. It's less that Eowyn can fulfill the prophecy because she is a woman and more that the prophecy reads as it does because Eowyn is a woman.

Eowyn puts a sword through the wraith's face. There's not any reason anywhere to suspect that anyone else putting a sword through his face would have led to any different outcome. A sword through the face is a sword through the face.

[Boromir88]

Elenhir:

Eowyn puts a sword through the wraith's face. There's not any reason anywhere to suspect that anyone else putting a sword through his face would have led to any different outcome. A sword through the face is a sword through the face.

In my opinion, this would be the main point. It boils down to Glorfindel telling Earnur not to go after him because "far off is the Witch-king's doom and not by the hand of man will he fall". Which is simply saying that a man would not kill him, not that a man could not.

After dismantling and decimating Arnor, defeating kings and great-captains like Earnur and Boromir, and 970ish years of defeating his challengers (or knowing how to avoid the ones who could kill him ) the Witch-King makes his boast about "no living man may hinder me"

[Winddancer]

Elenhir:

Eowyn puts a sword through the wraith's face. There's not any reason anywhere to suspect that anyone else putting a sword through his face would have led to any different outcome. A sword through the face is a sword through the face.

In my opinion, this would be the main point. It boils down to Glorfindel telling Earnur not to go after him because "far off is the Witch-king's doom and not by the hand of man will he fall". Which is simply saying that a man would not kill him, not that a man could not.

After dismantling and decimating Arnor, defeating kings and great-captains like Earnur and Boromir, and 970ish years of either defeating his challengers (or knowing how to avoid the ones who could kill him ) the Witch-King makes his boast about "no living man may hinder me"

That's exactly how I saw it. It was prophesied that the WK would not be killed by a man. That he then takes that to mean no one can kill him, well that makes him a dang fool, as obviously the prophecy is just saying it wasn't a man that killed him, but a hobbit and a woman :P

[Androthelm]

As others have mentioned, the prophecy of the Witch-King's defeat does seem to be a foreknowledge by Glorfindel that the WK will get taken down by someone who is not a man, telephoned over years into a legend (and a self-confidence) that he cannot be killed at all by humankind.

That being said, the former is FAR more in line with the sort of prophecy we seem to get in Tolkien. It's a challenging thing, because on the one hand, the world of Middle-Earth is one bound by a cosmic plan, laid out by Ilúvatar before the world. On the other hand, free will certainly exists and Tolkien holds mortals and immortals alike responsible for their actions and mistakes (even though the actions of evildoers are, as Eru explicitly states in the Ainulindalë "but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which... [evildoers] hath not imagined."

When people prophecize, they're just being offered a glimpse of this (to borrow a Christian term) Divine Plan. So, the question "does prophecy make or just tell truth?", which is really the question at the heart of whether Éowyn's womanhood and Merry's hobbitness allowed them to kill the Witch-King, has to be answered TELL, because otherwise their role as agents of good operating even within a divine plan is compromised -- everything just becomes Eru's fault, or Glorfindel's, maybe, for making the prophecy in the first place.

(On a similar note, with some further and more specific Silmarillion spoilers: It isn't the fault of Míriel that Fëanor went when he died, just because she named him "Spirit of Fire". Mother-names, like Glorfindel's comment, are snatches of insight and not commandments of magic. Míriel was reacting to the strength of Fëanor's spirit -- just as his body was, on death.)

[Burnt Toast]

Thanks for the warm welcome, all! It's much appreciated.

I find this all very fascinating.

@Elenhir -- I've definitely spent time considering if it's just as you said; a prophecy is fulfilled because we fill in some of the blanks ourselves, a bit of confirmation bias.

I also think it's more interesting if it's the boastfulness and the missing recognition of what "no man" means. It leaves a lot of interesting loopholes in the prophecy that arrogance could brush off. But again, perhaps this is all just the nature of prophecy and, as Boromir88 said, a big game of telephone.

@Boromir88 -- I really appreciate the quotes and additional context! I'm all for raising more questions.

I wonder why he had the particular fear of the Steward Boromir. Maybe 'no living man may hinder me' is stated because he actually still fears him, and his ghost might still threaten the Witch King.

[Lirimaer]

It seems to me that the WK's words are not necessarily based on the prophecy, since the WK was not around to hear it firsthand.

It might be that Sauron told him that when he became a wraith, or it might be the hubris of long experience not dying as some have speculated. While it's possible that Earnur might have uttered something like, "Uhh, they told me you couldn't be killed by the hand of man!" before he died, we just don't know from that 'never seen again'.

[Boromir88]

@Lucifer well...I hope you don't regret the invitation to raising more questions.

I wonder why he had the particular fear of the Steward Boromir. Maybe 'no living man may hinder me' is stated because he actually still fears him, and his ghost might still threaten the Witch King.

The only reference I'm familiar with is the mention in the Appendix that he was a great captain, and strong in body and will. You may be on to something though, because it was a morgul-wound that killed Boromir. Maybe the Witch-king was worried about a ghost being able to threaten him! :o

As for asking more questions...part of the intrigue is their existence. That is the Witch-King and Ringwraiths exist in both the shadow world and the corporeal world. Their existence in the corporeal world is completely tied to the One Ring. When the Ring is destroyed, the rest of the Nazgul fizzle out:

And into the heart of the storm, with a cry that pierced all other sounds, tearing the clouds asunder, the Nazgul came, shooting like flaming bolts, as caught in the fiery ruin of hill and sky they crackled, withered, and went out. Mount Doom

Which leads to a question of if the Ring wasn't destroyed, could the Witch-King have been summoned back to the living world? And what would that mean for the prophecy?

'You cannot destroy the Ringwraiths like that,' said Gandalf. 'The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him. We hope that they were all unhorsed and unmasked, and so made for a while less dangerous, but we must find out for certain.' The Ring Goes South

As we find out from Gandalf, the Ringwraiths were not destroyed in Elrond's flood, because their existence in the corporeal world is tied to Sauron's power. So, it would appear there are certain things that would not kill them, that would kill others with a physical body (such as drowning). I agree with Elenhir that any one who shoves a sword through the Witch-King face would hinder him, for Aragorn's words to the hobbits was only that:

'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.' Flight to the Ford

Pierce him in the face with any sword, I would say it would render him ineffective and 'killed.' Even though if killed probably isn't the best wording, and if we want to get technical I don't think the Witch-King was finally destroyed until the Ring was destroyed.

[Burnt Toast]

@Boromir88 -- I'll never regret raising more questions. XD That's the fun of it all, no?

Ah! I hadn't ever considered that it may have just been his physical body was killed, but because he was still tied to the Ring, maybe he wasn't actually destroyed until the Ring was, and since the timelines were close enough, we never had the time to see him pop up again to either prove or disprove this theory.


@Lirimaer - That would make a lot of sense to me; I don't know how widespread the prophecy was, and even if it made it to him, what 'watered down/telephoned' version of it would he have received?

And there it is again-- the problem with prophecy and the realm of confirmation bias. It's hard to dissect it, because of course we all come in with so many layers of assumption based on what we've already seen happen.

[KingODuckingham]

I will leave others to consider the already discussed ontology or metaphysics of the events. I don't know enough to speak on that, and I think the narrative echoes more significant anyway, or at least they are more interesting to me. @Boromir88 mentioned Macbeth earlier, but I'd like to back up from that a bit, to the Oracle at Delphi. Let's consider three of the most famous proclamations of the Oracle:

1) Herodotus records for us in his history that the King of Lydia, Croesus, asked the Oracle whether he should make war on Persia. The Oracle responded that should he do so, he would destroy a mighty empire.

Croesus attacked Persia, and destroyed his own kingdom.

2) Livy, in his Ab Urbe Condita, records that Brutus, legendary co-founder of the Roman Republic, went to the Oracle with the sons of the then-King of Rome. They asked who would inherit the throne, and the Oracle responded that the first of them to kiss their mother would have supreme authority in Rome.

The sons all rushed home, trying to get to their mother first, while Brutus 'tripped' on the ground and kissed the earth. He became consul after the overthrow of the king.

3) Socrates, Plato tells us, went to the Oracle and was told that nobody was wiser than Socrates.

Socrates took this to mean that everyone was ignorant, including himself, but his self-awareness made him 'wiser', rather than deciding that he was what would traditionally be thought of as 'wise'.

You can see the trend: prophecies tend toward ambiguous readings of the times rather than "predictions". They can be interpreted in many ways. They are trustworthy, but not straightforward. In fact, inscribed alongside its more famous cousin "Know thyself" at the entrance to the Oracle's cave-temple was the saying "Surety brings ruin". That would seem a bit weird if one thought of prophecies as predictions, as if the Oracle were downplaying itself, but prophecies were never such a thing.

I think Tolkien (alongside many, many other authors) joined this narrative stream by purposefully employing an open-ended, ambiguous prophecy whose interpretation in hindsight was not what one expected from the other direction. "How it worked", then, is less critical to know than that, for example, the Witch-King's surety brought ruin, as the Oracle warned long ago.

[Boromir88]

@Burnt Toast (my gosh, you like name changes ) I don't know how widespread the prophecy was, and even if it made it to him, what 'watered down/telephoned' version of it would he have received?


The only place I'm aware of the actual prophecy being stated is from the Appendix that I quote previously, which also states "these words many remembered".

I would assume Aragorn would have been aware of it, but in any of his encounters, he never indicates believing that a man couldn't kill the Witch-King. Agh, I'm so rusty, though so I can't remember with any certainty.

Gandalf certainly has and seems to be pretty ambiguous about what it means. Denethor mocks that Gandalf may have met his match, and Gandalf replies:

Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall, and hidden from the Wise is the doom that awaits him. However that may be, the Captain of Despair does not press forwards, yet. He rules rather according to the wisdom that you have just spoken, from the rear, driving his slaves in madness on before.' Return of the King: The Siege of Gondor

Gandalf shows a little humility by telling Denethor "maybe, because of this prophecy" but also "our trial of strength is not yet come." That trial does come, but is interrupted by the arrival of Rohan. Which tells me, Gandalf would have mopped the floor with the Witch-King had the trial not been interruped. What would that mean for the prophecy? Gandalf was male, but I don't think he can be considered a 'man' in the sense he wasn't mortal.

[Burnt Toast]

Haha, the apostrophe was giving me log-in trouble. But yes, I do enjoy them.

Hmm, this is all interesting-- and it seems to still follow the idea that 'living man' may be of some import. (Though again, as we've discussed, the nature of prophecies and confirmation bias make this difficult to assess without the ability to see multiple versions of the same fight with the Witch King.)

So, if we assume that the wording is meant to be interpreted a bit more literally, just for the fun of it: who do we all think could have been capable of killing the Witch King?

Some possibilities that have occurred here so far:
--Anyone not male
--Anyone not human
--Anyone not 'mortal'
--Anyone .. dead?

So it seems to me, the Witch King could have had plenty to fear. XD

[Elenhir]

'Living' doesn't really mean anything useful here. Tolkien uses the word as a way to distinguish between wraiths and not-wraiths. Gandalf uses the term, despite also being the person to define what the Nazgul are, where he is pretty clear in that they are, in a technical use of the term, still living. Aragorn uses the term. And the Black Captain himself uses the term. Eowyn does too, immediately contrasting it with 'dark undead' after she makes her reveal. You're trying to read too much into it. It's just a word that pops up around the Nazgul, with a very loose contextual meaning.

It's also not part of the prophecy, either where we are told of it earlier in the story (by Gandalf, two chapters before) or at the source (in Appendix A, with Glorfindel's words). If the exact same prophecy were made for Smaug instead of for the Wraith, it wouldn't appear in the direct confrontation with the doomed character.

[Burnt Toast]

You're trying to read too much into it. It's just a word that pops up around the Nazgul, with a very loose contextual meaning.

Probably so. All in good fun for the intrigue of considering various possibilities. :smiley10:

Thanks for all your thoughts; you've all given me much to consider!

[Androthelm]

I would, if I can throw some additional brush on this fire, like to put forward another reading of the word living in this context--that is to say, that a living man, poetically, is just a mortal man, and that a mortal man is just ... a man. So I do think the prophecy can be simplified back to Glorfindel's original comment--not by the hand of man will he fall.

[Burnt Toast]

@Bombadillo - I'm always here for more brush to the fire. This is probably the most likely interpretation of 'living' ( though it's fun to imagine he's afraid of ghosts ).

[Androthelm]

Oh, it's plenty more fun your way @Burnt Toast. Especially since Sauron is The Necromancer. I can imagine the Dol Guldur sitcom -- Witch-King flinching every time a wight/ghost/spirit passes because maybe this is the one who gets me...

[Allacan ob Burzum]

I wonder why he had the particular fear of the Steward Boromir. Maybe 'no living man may hinder me' is stated because he actually still fears him, and his ghost might still threaten the Witch King.

Oh oh oh! Not canon, but I totally love the idea that the Witch King was scared of ghosts. Maybe if Merry and Eowyn hadn't been successful at defeating him then he would have fled the field like a scaredy-cat when Aragorn turned up with the army of the dead!

(Complete newbie at Lore here; over ten years a plazaite and this is my second ever post in Lore after my first ever post on the plaza made me look like an idiot. Lookit me being brave. Please don't flame-breath me because there is no lore supporting my theory).

[Boromir88]

Welcome @Allafyrefleorhtlig :smiley8: My plaza days 10+ years ago was probably 99% lore forums, and not any of the games and competitions in the Kingdoms. But, coming back to the Plaza reborn, I think I was missing out on all the fun. I actually remember a frequent question about "who would win in a fight, the Witch-king or the King of the Dead?" I used to think the staring contest would be epic, but now imagining the Witch-king fleeing. All the Nazgul tend to flee, from a lot of things, to be perfectly honest.

@Mojo has started a reading group of Lord of the Rings. Discussion begins Monday. If you have time and the interest, join the fun.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=352

[Lail]

I think there are some excellent points made here, including the idea that the WK was arrogant and full of himself and misconstrued the message when he said that to Eowyn! I could totally see that happening.

Can I ask a somewhat humorous question as an offshoot to this discussion since we're focused on the words "no living man". Can we assume then, that it may have been possible for Eowyn and/or Merry to also have passed the Paths of the Dead alive as per this quote from Theoden in RotK?

"Folk say that Dead Men out of the Dark Years guard the way and will suffer no living man to come to their hidden halls"

He does preface it with "Folk say that" which could imply that its not true or misconstrued over time...

[Androthelm]

@Lailyn unfortunately, I can't think of a way that Aragorn fits the not-living man description, and he seems to do fine, so unfortunately I'm thinking Eowyn and Merry might get ghosted, as it were. Just a loose "Folk say"

[Boromir88]

@Androthelm I think, with Aragorn it's because being Isildur's heir he had the authority to summon them and absolve them of their oath.

It seems as the 'folk'-lore began when Brego and his son Baldor found the door into the Dwimorberg:

Then they halted and looked at him and saw that he lived still; but did not look at them. The way is shut, his voice said again. It was made by those who are Dead, and the Dead keep it, until the time comes. The way is shut Return of the King: The Muster of Rohan

Baldor asks when that time might come, but dies right there and what 'folk say' about the paths of the Dead begins. Until the time comes, referring to Isildur's curse after the Men had broken their oath:

Then Isildur said to their king: "Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end." Return of the King: The Passing of the Grey Company


It appears the 'folk' interpreted Baldor's death to mean the Dead men had closed the passage indefinitely, because there was no response to Baldor asking what was meant by "until the time comes.'

So, again a bit of telephone going on, with Isildur's curse. Saying there will come a time they are summoned again to fulfill their oath. That time being when Aragorn comes, and the folk of Rohan not understanding the time had come. For all they knew is one of their King's sons died because the Dead told him the way was shut.

[Lail]

@Androthelm - oh well I was only wishfully thinking two of my favorite characters could become double-heroes in my imaginary alternate-ending RotK. :smiley8:

I have serious question off-shooting from @Boromir88's quotes and I apologize this is getting quite off-topic from the original thread now.
Who would have passed along this folk-lore after Baldor died upon entering the Forbidden Door? Do you think he brought a contingent of Riders with him (who he somehow convinced to go on this hopeless quest) who witnessed events at the door, decided NOT to go in and passed the word on to others?

[Boromir88]

@Lailorn I don't think it's a problem. Interesting how things kind of branch out from the original. I was pretty familiar with the prophecy about the Witch-king, but had no idea (or had completely forgotten) about "no living man" and the Paths of the Dead. After going so long without reading the books, it's really exciting to crack them open again and see how much you've forgotten!

And I actually realized I made a mistake in my earlier post. Baldor's father, King Brego, is with him when they find the door and there "sat an old man, aged beyond guess of years; tall and kingly he had been, but now he was withered as an old stone." It is this old man that speaks to Brego and Baldor that "the way is shut" and it is this old man that "died in that hour and fell upon his face;" (when I first read it a few days ago I thought it was Baldor that died).

Baldor and Brego return after finding the door and during a feast for his father, he vows to 'tread the Paths of the Dead.' (Appendix A: Kings of the Mark). So, I'd say it would have been generally known that's where he was heading and afterwards "was never seen by men again." (The Muster of Rohan).