Thoughts on Dorwinion

[Eldy Dunami]

NB I wrote this post as part of a tangent to a thread in TheOneRing.net's Reading Room forum, though it's a reworking of notes I wrote several months ago while doing background research for an AU fanfiction project. I hadn't tried to express these thoughts in a form suitable for public consumption before, but now that I have, I would love to get the Plaza's take on them!


I've implicitly assumed Dorwinion was an Elvish realm for as long as I can remember, mainly because its wine is said in The Hobbit to be potent stuff even by Wood-elf standards (the relevant passage can also be read to imply that the ability to hold one's liquor derives from one's social class, but that's neither here nor there :V). The name Dorwinion is Sindarin, translated by Tolkien as "Young-land country" (PE 17, p. 54), though it's frequently interpreted as Sindarin dor "land" + Welsh gwin "wine"—and might well have been so inspired.

The etymology of Dorwinion in PE 17 comes as part of a discussion of the Silvan Elves, and Tolkien follows it up by stating the country "was probably far south down the River Running, and its Sindarin name a testimony to the spread of Sindarin: in this case expectable since the cultivation of vines was not known originally to the Nandor or Avari” (p. 54; emphases in the original). This is consistent with the placement of Dorwinion on the Pauline Baynes map of Middle-earth, which Tolkien was involved in the creation of, where the name appears near the mouth of the River Running (Celduin) into the Sea of Rhûn.

Tolkien's linguistic discussion of Dorwinion in the same paragraph as the Sindarization of Lórien and Greenwood/Mirkwood would seem to suggest it was a similar realm, ruled by one of "the Sindarin princes of the Silvan Elves" discussed in Appendix B of The History of Galadriel and Celeborn and briefly mentioned in Appendix B of LOTR. Dorwinion is not mentioned by name in either of these texts, but it's worth noting the statement in G&C Appendix A that "by the end of the Third Age the Silvan tongues had probably ceased to be spoken in the two regions that had importance at the time of the War of the Ring: Lórien and the realm of Thranduil in northern Mirkwood" (UT, p. 257). While the extirpation of Silvan Elvish in Lórien and Mirkwood is contradicted by a different text quoted just a few pages later, it's worth noting the implicit mention of regions not of importance at the time of the War of the Ring, but also inhabited by Silvan Elves.

We should also note that the name Dorwinion was one of the many elements in The Hobbit borrowed from the earlier legendarium. It's referred to twice in The Lay of the Children of Húrin, where wine grapes are grown in "the burning South" and transported to Doriath by Dwarvish merchants from Nogrod. The wine is evidently highly potent: Orgof, known in the 1977 Silmarillion as Saeros, is said to have been drunk on Dor-Winion [sic] wine when he gave Túrin the insult that indirectly led to his death (lines 424–6, 483–4). Tolkien presumably did not have a fleshed-out geographical scheme in mind when he reused the name and function of Dorwinion wine in The Hobbit, but his later placement of it along the Sea of Rhûn—south of Mirkwood, though not necessarily far enough south to be "burning"—is reminiscent of the First Age account.

One could even imagine the First and Third Age Dorwinions being the same: Dorwinion-on-Rhûn is a mere navigable river journey away from the Dwarvish trade network. In late writing, Tolkien stated that the Dwarf-built Old Forest Road from the map in The Hobbit was already in existence by the early Second Age (HoMe XII, Of Dwarves and Men, note 30). Elsewhere, he specifically referred to bridges over both the Anduin and the Celduin (on opposite sides of the forest), noting that the bridges were built in the First Age but the entire road not completed until the early Second (NoMe, p. 372). If we want to mix and match texts written decades apart, we could imagine Thingol's wine being shipped up the Celduin[1] and carried along Dwarf roads all the way to Doriath, though I don't claim Tolkien himself ever had this in mind.

With all this in mind, I feel pretty confident in the theory that Dorwinion was an Elvish realm, though the possibility remains that it was not exclusively Elvish. In another discussion of the First Age history of the Sea of Rhûn, Tolkien wrote that the Edain had a long sojourn there during their migration period, with the Proto-Hadorians living in the forest on the northeast shore of the Sea, while the Proto-Bëorians "dwelt at the feet of the high hills to the south-west" (HoMe XII, The Problem of Ros, note 13; both these landforms can be clearly seen on the Pauline Baynes map). Andreas Möhn speculatively identified these hills as the location of Dorwinion on the basis that they would be suitable for wine-growing, though they are located south of the label on the Baynes map. While I disagree with Möhn's overall conclusion, I find this reasonable and consistent with the text.

At this point I am fully in the realm of headcanons, but I like the idea of a region of mixed Telerin (Nandor and/or Avari) and Proto-Bëorian settlement, far east of Beleriand, before the Edain encountered the Eldar. It's said in the 1977 Silmarillion that "the language of Bëor and his folk resembled the Elven-tongue in many words and devices" because they "had long had dealings with the Dark Elves east of the mountains, and from them had learned much of their speech" (ch. 17). I like to imagine Dorwinion was the site, or one of the sites, of contact between these peoples. I also imagine this contact was substantial.

The 1977 Silmarillion notes that the Bëorian and Hadorian languages were related (ch. 17), but does not elaborate on this. In a linguistic essay, Tolkien commented that after the divergence of the two originally related languages, "the language of Hador was apparently less changed and more uniform in style[2], whereas the language of Bëor contained many elements that were alien in character. This contrast in speech was probably connected with the observable physical differences between the two peoples" (HoMe XII, Of Dwarves and Men). My reading of this is that the Proto-Bëorians diverged linguistically and phenotypically from the Proto-Hadorians because of contact with the same outside group. Linguistically, we can say—referring back to their first contact with Finrod—that this influence was almost certainly Nandorin and/or Avarin, so I'd argue this is evidence for Bëorian/Dark Elvish intermarriage.

Blasphemy, I know, but Dark Elves are not covered by the closed list of three marriages of the Eldar and the Edain. There's precedent in the legendarium for a single (purported) marriage between a human and a Dark Elf influencing the physical appearance of an entire population. Even the foot soldiers of Dol Amroth were "tall as lords, grey-eyed, dark-haired" (ROTK, V 1), traits[3] that Legolas considered evidence that the legend of a Silvan Elf marrying into the Line of Dol Amroth was true (V 9). If something similar happened in Bëorian prehistory, it might have been in Dorwinion, one of the few areas we know both peoples inhabited, even if their concurrent presence must remain speculative. On the other hand, it could also have occurred in Eriador, where it's strongly implied by LOTR there was an urban Proto-Bëorian civilization prior to their entry into Beleriand—strongly contrasting with the idea that they showed up as "rude and scantily clad" nomads (HoMe XI, p. 216)—but that's a topic for another post.

---

[1] While we're playing in late-texts-land, let's note the Teleri are said to have developed a sophisticated shipbuilding tradition while living on the shores of the Sea of Rhûn (HoMe XII, Last Writings, note 29). This is in contrast to the 1977 Silmarillion, where the Teleri learned shipbuilding from Ossë after reaching the coast of Beleriand. In The History of The Hobbit, John D. Rateliff notes that Tolkien's depiction of Elvish boats in paintings of Lake-town and of Taniquetil are "almost identical – naturally enough, having been built by two branches of the same kindred [the Teleri]" (HoTH, p. 428). One could interpret this as meaning that Thranduil and other refugees from Beleriand brought shipbuilding knowledge with them when they established their realm in Greenwood, but Doriath was not a shipbuilding realm, so I prefer to see this in light of the idea that the Telerin maritime tradition was already in place before they crossed the Anduin.

[2] Contrast the observation, in the endnotes to the same essay, of the strong resemblance between Khuzdul (Dwarvish) and Adûnaic, which is obvious at a glance. "This gave rise to the theory (a probable one) that in the unrecorded past some of the languages of Men – including the language of the dominant element in the Atani from which Adûnaic was derived [i.e., the Hadorian language] – had been influenced by Khuzdul" (HoMe XII, Of Dwarves and Men, note 4). The main text of ODAM describes the relationship between Dwarves and Hadorian-related peoples in the early Second Age, but on the basis of this linguistic evidence, I think it's clear that relationship must have begun in the First, before the separation of those who went to Beleriand and those who stayed in Rhovanion.

[3] Grey eyes and dark hair are also characteristically Bëorian traits according to the 1977 Silmarillion, but in ODAM, Bëorians are instead said to have had brown eyes, brown hair, and a greater range of skin tones than the Hadorians.

[Elenhir]

My reading of this is that the Proto-Bëorians diverged linguistically and phenotypically from the Proto-Hadorians because of contact with the same outside group. Linguistically, we can say—referring back to their first contact with Finrod—that this influence was almost certainly Nandorin and/or Avarin, so I'd argue this is evidence for Bëorian/Dark Elvish intermarriage.

This is where you lose me.

Tolkien notes the differences:

Though the time might well have been less, and
change quickened by a mingling of peoples; for the language of
Hador was apparently less changed and more uniform in style,
whereas the language of Beor contained many elements that
were alien in character. This contrast in speech was probably
connected with the observable physical differences between the
two peoples. There were fair-haired men and women among the
Folk of Beor, but most of them had brown hair (going usually
with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin, some indeed
being swarthy. Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare
among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build.

But for easy listing:

• Mostly brown hair, opposed to mostly golden hair.
• Mostly brown brown eyes, opposed to mostly blue-grey eyes.
• A wider and darker range of skin tones.
• Mostly shorter.
• Mostly of heavier and broader builds.

This is nothing more than a laundry list of the prominent notes in description of the later-arriving Swarthy Men.

They were short and broad, long and strong in the
arm, and grew much hair on face and breast; their locks were
dark as were their eyes, and their skins were sallow or swart.
But they were not all of one kind, in looks or in temper, or in
tongue.

I've long taken these late thoughts to be Tolkien making the Beorians, the quickest of the Men to arrive in Beleriand, be a composite group of more west-seeking Men of various groups. On its way to a full blending of the different groups that splintered off from their original peoples and joined together. Like 'the strong Fallohidish strain' in the Shire Hobbits' 'great families', the leadership of the composite group seemed more strongly of the Hador-linked group.

The main problem with your idea is that Elven blood would make it difficult to account for the differences between the Folk of Hador and of Beor, because it is their similarities which hold more common descriptors of Elves, not their differences.

[Eldy Dunami]

Hey @Elenhir, it's good to hear your take on this! The relationship between the Bëorians and the First Age Easterlings is something I've only thought about a little, and not from this perspective, but I like your idea of the Bëorians as a composite group. Definitely something I want to think about more when it's not 1:30 a.m. In this scenario, I suppose the most straightforward reading of ODAM would be that the Bëorian language acquired Easterling influences (I can't remember offhand if we ever learn much of anything about their language? Bór and Ulfang are Sindarin names in any event), and the language had picked up its Nandorin/Avarin influences earlier, perhaps before it diverged from Hadorian. The latter is how I interpreted the 1977 Silmarillion before delving into HoMe, anyway. I'm quite fond of the idea of extensive Bëorian/Avarin cultural contact before they reached Beleriand, but obviously I don't want that preference to warp my reasoning.

Anyway, I'm rambling at this point. Thanks again for commenting!

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Eldarion: Thanks for sharing this with us! Dorwinion as an elvish realm? That is good for thought. I am pretty familiar with the landscape there as I used it for story writing. Dorwinion is the land more on the northwest side of the Rhunaer, east bound it is Menelothriand (to fans at least). If you talk of blasphemy, you'll find me guilty to it when it comes to lore. It is quite interesting what you are writing about a possible anciency of Humans and Elves together.

This idea of intermarriage is what I am currently doing with exploration of 'way of life' among the Minyar in Valinor who literally live with the Maiar together at the Tani in Eldamar. They are as normal in their lives as the animals and plants around them. I guess those beloved Eldar of Manwë weren't that loyal to themselves and did have kids with a nice looking elven Maia, (even they might not have known the true nature of their partners). But back in Middle Earth, these Valar and Maiar are mere myth for all mortal people, and only a few know who they really are.

[Eldy Dunami]

Thanks, Aikári! I confess I'm not very familiar with adaptational and fanonical depictions of Dorwinion or the wider Rhûnaer region, though I've already received an impromptu education from a member of another forum about The One Ring Roleplaying Game's version of Dorwinion. I think it's great that people have fleshed out all these little corners of the legendarium. That's kind of what I was trying to do here, albeit in far less detail.

In all honesty, my interest in human/elvish intermarriage is probably in part due to my fondness for age difference romance tropes, but it also ties in with my thoughts about the separation of different cultures in Middle-earth from each other. We hear various perspectives on this from different texts with different ostensible in-universe authors. For instance, some think the Valar inviting the Eldar to Valinor was a mistake with disastrous consequences, while others bristle at the allegation (see the chapter "Manwë's Ban" in NoMe for an especially indignant response to the idea that Manwë could make serious mistakes). Eldarin rulers in Beleriand thought that it was bad for Elves and humans to live in too close proximity (TS, ch. 17), whereas Gondor hosted two Elvish settlements within its borders—Edhellond in the Third Age and Legolas' colony in Ithilien in the Fourth—with no ill effects we're told of. And there's a whole philosophical dialogue (the Athrabeth) which hinges in part on the question of whether Elvish/human romances are a bad idea.

I tend to agree with the pro-interconnectedness and communication side. I find Númenor an illustrative example. Even before I started thinking about isolation vs. connection as a broader philosophical question, I felt that the Númenóreans had been put in a pretty shire position. They're pulled out from the rest of humanity, given physical and mental gifts that make them almost as good as the Elves, and given a special island home that’s almost as great an earthly paradise as Valinor, which is literally kept just out of sight from them until eventually even Tol Eressëa is hidden. And the Valar specifically instructed Círdan to stop providing transportation between Númenor and Middle-earth (HoMe XII, p. 145), isolating the Númenóreans from any other culture that could understand their fear of death for hundreds of years. Is it any wonder they chafed against Valarin paternalism and wanted to close the gap between them and their closest neighbors? If the Valar had a better understanding of Incarnate psychology they might have anticipated this, but them failing to understand the Children of Ilúvatar is a consistent theme.

To be clear, none of this is to criticize Tolkien—he made similar points himself! He noted how the Númenóreans' living conditions led to their desire for immortality in Letter 156, and he suggested (in typical it is said fashion) that the Rebellion of the Noldor was similarly inevitable because "it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live under protection in Aman, and not (as was intended) in MIddle-earth" (PE 17, p. 179). It gets even worse in recently published texts, where it's said Manwë wanted to force the Eldar to move to Valinor and only allowed them to make their own decision on the "urgent advice" of Varda (NoMe, pp. 95, 99). The more I think about this, the more I become interested in the Avari and wonder what sort of societies they built independently of Valarin authority. The desire for Elves to do their own thing independently of the Valar is often presented as a moral failing (especially in the case of Celebrimbor), but Varda, at least, seems to have thought it was a legitimate choice. And it was she whom the Elves saw as "the lover and protectress of the Quendi" (PE 17, p. 22; HoMe X, p. 387), and who they honored above all the other Valar. I like to imagine there were some Mannish populations in Middle-earth who got to participate in this in the course of their interactions with the Avari.

I haven't thought much about the relationship(s) between Elves and Maiar in Valinor, though I've read a few interesting depictions of it in fanfiction. It might be a topic for greater reflection in the future.

P.S. I would be much obliged if you could use my current username (which I switched to around the time I came out) rather than versions of my older one. Thank you!

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Hey! I'll try, but I can't make a solid promise. It is the You (Eldarion) then behind the new name to me. I wasn't certain. Aikári is my internet signature in online life and not only for this place.

Posted by Eldy Dunami: To be clear, none of this is to criticize Tolkien—he made similar points himself! He noted how the Númenóreans' living conditions led to their desire for immortality in Letter 156, and he suggested (in typical it is said fashion) that the Rebellion of the Noldor was similarly inevitable because "it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live under protection in Aman, and not (as was intended) in Middle-earth" (PE 17, p. 179). It gets even worse in recently published texts, where it's said Manwë wanted to force the Eldar to move to Valinor and only allowed them to make their own decision on the "urgent advice" of Varda (NoMe, pp. 95, 99). The more I think about this, the more I become interested in the Avari and wonder what sort of societies they built independently of Valarin authority. The desire for Elves to do their own thing independently of the Valar is often presented as a moral failing (especially in the case of Celebrimbor), but Varda, at least, seems to have thought it was a legitimate choice. And it was she whom the Elves saw as "the lover and protectress of the Quendi" (PE 17, p. 22; HoMe X, p. 387), and who they honored above all the other Valar. I like to imagine there were some Mannish populations in Middle-earth who got to participate in this in the course of their interactions with the Avari.

I have a variety of adapted maps of the region and yes most of the only Roleplaying Game, that is true. But not much can be found as references in Home Editions or Letters or even Appendices. Back to the basics it is interesting what you're sharing from the various sources. I haven't access to most materials. But I got the book with Tolkien's Letters. There is an interesting point of truth to that the Elves of Cuivienen are alien to live under Vala protection. They woke there and were discovered by Oromë. Is there a possibility to read PE and Nome texts or not, where this is in discussed? I understand well your interest in the independent Avari. They branch out in many peoples. That is what returns in Thranduil's realm (Lasgalen) also.

Discovering how it works in other places, without access to various courses, comes for me just to take the problem in roleplay and work it in practical way. Based on the materials known mainly the books and Tolkien Gateway. It is filling up the gaps. Some are really large. But taken the character root of Imin who chose only the Elves who he had woken up as first and would not accept others, I see this as kind of common trait that forms the Minyár together. In that they are different from Nelyar and Tatyar brothers and sisters. It is what can be interpreted as 'royal arrogance' (negative sense). I have an idea that this also exists with various Maiar, Valar and Ainur (generally). And the key could be no Minyar stayed in Middle Earth and straight to Eldamar, when the first opportunity came by. What is available upon the last fifty years battle and the Minyar involved in Middle Earth is roughly fourhundred words in the Silmarillion. Tolkien had to write this into the lore, but I have a feeling he had no idea how to work it out in full. Eonwë, the herald of Manwë, takes centre stage in the battle. I threw it on the differences in tongues between Valinor and Middle Earth. I found that Eonwë had to feel himself waving between different Valinorean opinions as commander. I have always been writing from complete clean sheet. If you like to have a peek, visit it here.

[Eldy Dunami]

Hey! I'll try, but I can't make a solid promise. It is the You (Eldarion) then behind the new name to me. I wasn't certain. Aikári is my internet signature in online life and not only for this place.

I'm not sure I completely follow, but I also have a standardized online name that I use across many sites. I'm pretty much always Eldy (sometimes Eldy Dunami) since 2018, unless I'm using my real name.

Is there a possibility to read PE and Nome texts or not, where this is in discussed?

The Nature of Middle-earth, as a recent publication, is easy to find in bookstores (online or brick and mortar) as well as libraries. (My county's public library system, which is not huge, has two copies.) Parma Eldalamberon 17 was out of print and thus difficult to find for some time, but it's now available to buy via print on demand. Also, someone uploaded a PDF copy to Scribd.com which can be read with a free trial account.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Eldy: I never use any of my real names, just out of protection. It's okay, we all follow an own path on the internet with using a protective identity. Thanks for sharing those links! I'll try to read them.