The Rings of Power Episode 3: Adar [SPOILERS]

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IMDB wrote: Arondir finds himself a captive. Galadriel and Halbrand explore a legendary kingdom. Elendil is given a new assignment. Nori faces the consequences.
Written by John D. Payne and Patrick McKay, Directed by Wayne Yip

So here we are. Are we going to get a glimpse of Númenor? With the crunchy timeline are we going to get exposition and backstory? Who is the Stranger and why does he want "man ure" so much? What the heck is up with Theo and is he turning into a Sith Nazgûl?

We all have our not-so-cracked theories, but which ones are going to be proved right?
Last edited by The Good Hunter on Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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I'll stick with probably my least cracked theory...Galadriel and Halbrand get on a boat with Elendil.

As for Meteor Man...I thought the first word he was saying was "mana" (so...magic?) I don't know what the 2nd word was though.

Anyway, I'm excited to see where the series goes. I have little hope this is (or will be) "the story Tolkien never wrote." But I was expecting that going in.I've been pleasantly surprised with how much I've enjoyed it so far. I think that's because I watch with a few other friends who are not the Tolkien lore nerd I am. So, being able to geek out about the entire list of differences, but they're all still enjoying the series, is in a weird way making me enjoy it too. And of course a forum like this one, which has different opinions, but we're actually having a discussion about the episodes and not "It's fanfic woke trash" "It's not Peter Jackson's LOTR"...etc etc is nice too. I've had a Prime account long before the series was even a thing. I'm keeping my account regardless of whether I continue watching it or not (the free shipping for a prime account more than pays for the service fees). It's like a free bonus. I'm not paying anything extra, if I get bored with a series I'll switch it off and move on with my day.
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“Man ure” means “what fire”, right?

So, just an early theory; Halbrand is going to turn out to be Sauron or an agent thereof.

“Adar” - father - is what the Orcs are calling their new mysterious leader. Sauron himself? Or someone like the Witch-king? Or the mysterious Eminem type figure? He seems to have long dark hair?

Númenor - absolutely beautiful. Buildings have strong echoes of Minas Tirith.
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Rivvy's Crack Predictions:

"Arondir finds himself a captive. Galadriel and Halbrand explore a legendary kingdom. Elendil is given a new assignment. Nori faces the consequences."

Arondir excapes from captivity this episode. Galadriel is not impressed with the legendary kingdom. Elendil's new assignment is to escort Galadriel back to middle-earth. Nori is exiled from Harfoot society.

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Also, absolute chills when Durin says “the digging is going well” noooooo stop there is nothing good down there
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I loved Episode 3. Most thrilling episode so far and I'm interested in all the storylines that are starting to take shape. I will share more details later, but as far as a quick prediction. "Adar" is The Mouth of Sauron. From the blurry shot at the end he looks to be a man, and I would guess a Black Numenorean. I hope the series explores the Black Numenoreans more. That is all for now.
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My third episode quick thoughts:

1) I still think the Harfoots are the best creation of the show so far, from their look to their traditions, it feels like the best blending of Tolkien adjacent to actual Tolkien lore that any adaptation has done. Nori and Poppy had Merry and Pippen energy in this episode and that was delightful
2) Númenor was spectacular, as expect, and while on the outset it feels like everything is backwards lore-wise (and some of it is) I can see the sense in why some of the changes were made, especially with regard to Míriel who has to balance being a member of the Faithful while appeasing the Kings Men, though her name feels like a dead give away that she's not on Pharazôn side. The capital city was quite breathtaking, kind of like Rome or Constantinople meets Bloodborne with the winding, stretched out architecture. They mentioned Anárion at least, so there's hope for him yet.
3) Yeah, I think Halbrand is supposed to be Theo's father and the "weapon" the orcs are looking for is the broken sword, the symbol of the oath that was made to Morgoth. I would have liked it better if they weren't related but, meh
4) I am growing to enjoy Arondir more and more. He has a few somewhat silly acrobatics but we all cheered when Legolas surfed down the stairs on a shield (I use all very loosely) so I'm cool with it.
5) Adar. Can't be Sauron, that feels too easy, too tied up in a bow. Sauron's guise as Annatar is supposed to throw everyone (except Galadriel and co) and Adar being Sauron is very anticlimactic. Witch-King? I agree with Boro, I want to see some Black Númenóreans. I have my own headcanon lore but I want to see another interpretation.
6) Proto Mordor is cool, though I assumed that particular land had always been a wasteland and that's why Sauron chose it as his seat of power
7) This episode had a strong lack of Dwarven women (with facial hair) and Elrond so I hope next episode makes up for that lack, the preview sounds quite ominous...
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This was the best episode of the series so far. Where Episode 1 was "meh" for me and the saving grace was the amazing visuals and the Harfoots. Episode 3 everything is starting to come together and I'm invested in all the story lines.

This felt like the most well constructed episode that had a clear vision. "Adar", father, and fatherhood featured throughout the episode. Elendil's expectations of his 2 children. Elendil felt perfectly cast and I see the tension in the family dynamic. Galadriel name-dropping Finarfin, the Brandyfoot clan facing difficulty in the migration because of the father's injury, Miriel warning her father the time they feared has come, and of course the orcs reverence to the person they call "Adar."

I think my only nitpick is I didn't like the look of the warg. It looked too cartoonish. They might not have wanted something that was too close to the GoT dire wolves, but I actually preferred the hyenas that Jackson gave us. I seem to vaguely recall too, seeing some extras about GoT and creating a realistic CGI dire wolf is hard. I mean we can sit here and nitpick the lore, but if I can accept a strawberry-blonde Boromir, who was portrayed much softer than the character Tolkien wrote, and everything wrong about Denethor and Faramir, then I can accept the series. The question always was, will I be invested in the story? And I must say, I definitely am after Episode 3.

I pretty much like everything, so instead of just saying "everything," I'll highlight a few specifics of what I liked the best.

-The design of Numenor. I got a Rome and Byzantine look to it, but it's more than that. I can see Numenor being the precursor to Gondor, in the architecture and the people. There was depth and a mix of classes in the Capital city. I'm not sure if they plan on combining Armenelos/Romenna together, but I liked seeing the royal, the naval, the Faithful, guild members and the commoners. It looked and felt like an older Gondor, with more wealth and power.

-The orcs. I honestly think these are the best orcs that I've seen in any fantasy setting. They look great (in my opinion even better than Jackson's orcs), but the orcs are real threats. In every fantasy story I've seen the orcs are simply canon fodder, nameless baddies that get chopped down by the heroes. In this series they display a cunning and wicked cruelty. I'm very tense every time they're on screen, because their unpredictability, and portrayed as a legitimate threat. It was sort of seen in Lord of the Rings, but just got laughable in The Hobbit. I mean watching the 101 ways Legolas can decapitate an orc is fun the first few times, but gets boring when it's every time he's on screen. There was never any danger when encountering a host of orcs (how many did the dwarves cut through running around Goblin-town?). There is danger to encountering these orcs, and the fact they are physically hurt by sunlight is an added bonus.
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Found some concept art for Rings of Power! Simon Murton has done concept art for a lot of shows and films (Thor: Love and Thunder and Suicide Squad are the biggest names that pop out) and while he's not credited on IMDb, it looks like he's done a lot of artwork for Rings of Power as well with some Harfoot and Númenor sketches.
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So I finally had time to sit and watch..

Wow.

So Numenor seems to be standing up well to how I saw it in my head loved the visuals and it didn't end at the previews seen in the trailers it was deeper than that.

The sailing scene with Isildur. That said for a show that's suppose to have multiple seasons with 8 episodes each I really feel like we're meeting these characters really fast and I'm a bit worried some of the major events like the fall of Numenor is going to get glossed over almost completely since we have Elendil and Isildur which means we're going to what? Suddenly have Minas Arbor being fully built and fall in one swift little episode?

I really loved the Harfoots the book of the left behind really comes across like the live of genealogy we find in later hobbits. I honestly am not sure on the whole punishment of Noris whole family because of what she did but I suppose it is a way around she must be banished.

halbarand yeah that's Theo's father I'll bet money and seems a good but of wrapped up in a bow. I do have to admit I liked the discussion between him and Galadriel and honestly I think it should be interesting to see where that progresses.

The orcs again as has been said love them and how dangerous and cunning they are. The plan to run and bang dead because of arrows was fantastic. Adar I'm going to bet on being the witch king as I feel this is too soon for Sauron however with the speed their introducing characters it very well may be and they may have the witch king in Numenor so we don't have Galadriel stabbing him with her brothers dagger before we get the rings of power.


Honestly I even though there are things I don't like and would have done differently I am enjoying it over all. This episode finally felt like we were getting into true story arch rather than build up and intros. I really feel like this is very much like some of the altered history we are to make RPs on here have more meaning and fun or even fanfiction stories that people occassionally turn into fan films the difference is the budget on this one really so it makes it far more palatable in terms of deviations thinking like that for me
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I know I'm late to the party here, but I figured I'd share my thoughts from the day after watching episode 3.

Overall impression: I wanted to approach ROP with an open mind, giving it a fair chance to impress me on its own merits regardless of changes from the source material, but this episode was a much greater test of my resolve on that front than the first two, since Númenóreans and Orcs are two of my main Second Age interests. I'm thus not sure if this episode was, in fact, worse than the premiere, or if I'm just being pickier about it. A rewatch might help me come to a firmer opinion, though I don't have any immediate plans for that. Regardless, there's no question that I'm sticking with the show. I never thought I'd see Númenor depicted onscreen, and it's exciting to get to experience that now, despite my reservations.

Specific things:

Is show!Anárion older than Isildur? That's the sense I got, since Anárion seems to have already gone through the life stage Isildur is in. It'll be interesting to see what, if any, implications of this change there are down the line.

Míriel and Pharazôn's discussion of Elendil seems to put to rest the idea that the show's version of the House of Valandil has any particular importance compared to other noble houses. Hard to see how they could include their descent from Silmariën in light of this, except through the generous application of handwavium.

I really did not like the throne room scene. Míriel is the (acting) head of state of arguably the world's greatest power, and she's just ... standing around chatting with people, until Elendil strolls in unannounced, with two complete unknowns trailing after him, and walks right up to her. Where is the pomp, the ceremony, the sense that this is the legal and administrative nucleus of a massive colonial empire, not a town hall?

On that note, maybe show!Númenor isn't a massive colonial empire? I'm not sure what to make of Míriel's line that it had been a long time since Númenórean ships were permitted to sail to Middle-earth for the sake of an Elf, but it seems to suggest that sailing to Middle-earth is something that requires special permission, rather than happening as a matter of course. But this is a heavily maritime society (as confirmed by Lloyd Owen in interviews) with nowhere to sail except Middle-earth, so what gives? If the rule is just that Númenóreans can't do favors for Elves, Míriel expressed that in a strange way.

Apparently Tar-Palantir was deposed in a coup? That Míriel was either involved or complicit in, given she ended up in charge? But she still considers him a confidante, and seems to be making decisions based in part on his prophecies? Huh.

I hadn't really been on the "Halbrand is just bargain bin Aragorn" train before now, but episode 3 did its damnedest to convert me to that camp. I'd rather not see secret royalty plotlines to begin with, but Halbrand's specific anxieties about his ancestry come across as a deliberate invocation of movie!Aragorn. Nonetheless, I remain curious to learn more about his character. Did he learn to fight because of his ancestry—i.e., is/was there a faction in the Southlands trying to prepare him for greatness?—or is it something he learned by necessity because he "chafes against commonality" (or whatever Galadriel's wording was) and made a habit of getting into fights?

The show appears to have conflated Armenelos and Rómenna into a single port/capital city. Not a particularly consequential change, of course, and I'm only remarking on it because of I've spent an inordinate amount of time cataloging things we know about Númenor. The city being built on cliffs is in keeping with Tolkien's description of Númenor's coastline; one imagines the snaking harbor Elendil's ship sailed through as the show's version of the Firth of Rómenna.

Galadriel seemed to imply that Elves used to visit Númenor from Middle-earth. This is not something Tolkien wrote about, and while I know plenty of people imagine it happening anyway (Elrond visiting or at least corresponding with Elros is a common element of early Second Age fanfiction), I'm inclined to think it was very uncommon, if it happened at all, and only after the resumption of contact in II.600. My headcanon is that the Valar forbade it.

On that note, while we finally got a mention of the Valar! They still appear to be curiously far in the background, though. My boyfriend speculates this is because Amazon didn't want the show to touch on religious themes too explicitly, which I suppose is plausible. It could be for fear of offending audience sensibilities, though I think it might also be because religion is such a subtle background element in LOTR, to the point of many readers missing it entirely. Unfortunately, that's one of the major differences between Tolkien's Second and Third Age works, and I think it'd be a shame if the show continues to dance around the topic. Then again, it was created by people who claim to think it doesn't feel like Middle-earth without Hobbits. :P

Do Númenórean archivists have access to Google reverse image search? Galadriel previously told us none of the Elves knew anything about Sauron's sigil, and IIRC the document found in the House of Lore did not directly connect the drawing to Sauron, or to Finrod's mutilated corpse. Also, why would Sauron leave a clue to his doomsday plan on the corpse of an enemy?

The whole thing about Nori's family possibly being left behind because her father has a sprained (broken?) ankle rang false to me. I admit, I know very little about historical nomadic peoples, but surely this is not the first time a Hobbit has sustained an ankle injury at a bad time, and I can't imagine their social bonds being so loose that it's considered acceptable to abandon someone to die because of that.

This is probably nitpicking, but nomadic proto-Hobbits having surnames and literacy also strikes me as odd. Though, based on pre-release interviews with actors, maybe we're meant to assume these are relics of a historical settled existence, before they went into hiding after a war (which I still maintain was implicitly the War of Wrath, for as little sense as I think that makes). But if so, that implies they had contact with the Eldar and/or Edain, unless the Harfoots developed literacy independently. Which I really hope was not the case.

It was good to finally get a glimpse of the show's version of Orcish society, though it continues to be (as in both the book and movie versions of LOTR) only their military, and only as viewed from their enemies' (the free peoples') point of view. For that reason, I'll wait to pass judgment. It was nice to see Orcs' vulnerability to sunlight being a relevant factor, though surely it would have been wiser on their part to make the prisoners work at night, or at least dusk and dawn, rather than the middle of the day when their overseers are at their most vulnerable.

I enjoyed this week's Elvish ninja action sequence. Arondir is a pretty cool dude, and his comrades acquitted themselves well, even though it proved not to be enough in the end.

Thank God the next episode preview showed Elrond. I really missed seeing the show's best subplot this week.
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Eldy Dunami wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:05 am It was good to finally get a glimpse of the show's version of Orcish society, though it continues to be (as in both the book and movie versions of LOTR) only their military, and only as viewed from their enemies' (the free peoples') point of view. For that reason, I'll wait to pass judgment. It was nice to see Orcs' vulnerability to sunlight being a relevant factor, though surely it would have been wiser on their part to make the prisoners work at night, or at least dusk and dawn, rather than the middle of the day when their overseers are at their most vulnerable.
Hard agree here, I'm biased of course, but I want to see orcs in more than just a military sense. We know in a general sense that an entire social structure can't turn only on military prowess so I want to see what the other parts of orcish society are and how they fit in with the military. Alas, I think all of that worldbuilding will have to be relegated to my own fanfiction.
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I was encouraged by the preview article about Orcs a few months ago, especially the statement that there would be a female Orc appearing in season one. I really want to believe that ROP will show us Orcs as something other than single-mindedly evil minions, but the first three episodes haven't given me a ton of hope. I've seen a lot of praise for the Orcs so far, especially the one that fought Theo and Bronwyn in the premiere, and I agree that it was scary and stronger than a mook, and I suppose that's nice to see. But I would prefer the show grapple with the moral complexity of Orcs as sentient beings that Tolkien himself struggled with, or at least acknowledge it.
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Like you, @Eldy Dunami, I want to see orcs as more three dimensional and agree that while the orcs have been cool thus far through three episodes, I don't have a lot hope that RoP will be the show that changes people's visual media perception of orcs. I pray I'm wrong and over the next few episodes something changes. The "always chaotic evil" trope of orcs is running a bit thin. A female orc will be great to see, but I want more steps toward exactly what you called it: moral complexity.
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The warg has been the one thing I really didn't like the look of, it was disappointing. I don't even mind the short-haired elves. I've heard that the warg in Episode 3 looks like it had a silly instagram filter on. And I've heard that it looks like what a chihuahua thinks a warg looks like. Both statements are accurate. :lol:

I've also heard from the actor who plays the Stranger, that his character's mystery will not be resolved in season 1. Drat.
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The more I look at clips and images, yeah, yeah that warg is not up to snuff. In comparison to his orcish handlers he looks cartoonishly wrong, inbred or something. I don't want to be over critical of design choices (not yet at least) but the warg is not one of the things they've done well.

I'm not surprised about the Stranger, to be honest. Disappointed and a bit annoyed perhaps, but not surprised. Why let go of a mystery too early? Any idea how long we'll be waiting between seasons, apropos of this ongoing mystery?

Also, just thought I'd throw this bit of speculation out there. Proto-Mordor, whether it's canonical or not, looks like a World War I battlefield, the Somme or Verdun; the place is ripped apart, on fire, and filled with diseased looking trenches crossing and crisscrossing. If that's not drawing on Tolkien's own experiences with the horror of industrialization and war, I don't know what is. It's one of the most Tolkien inspired images I've seen from any source.
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Following some thoughts others have had (didn't have the time to write a long writeup this week):

1. Yeah, the Warg didn't look great. I don't mind the design so much... but the CG definitely felt lacking. Still, it was fun, and (narratively) follows from the "hardier" orcs we've seen to have a single warg present so much of a threat.
2. re: the Stranger I am going to be really disappointed at this point if he does turn out to be a pure Villain -- a Sauron, etc. I don't know why, but I find him so charming -- I think it's a bit of that "looks foul, feels fair" notion Frodo brings up at the Prancing Pony, which I think I've mentioned before.
3. Yes @Metatron Omega! I'm really enjoying the prisoner plotline so far -- from the question of whether or not to fell a single tree, to the elven plan to make for the nearest forest... to the twisted ruin of the landscape, once we finally get a look above the trenchline, it feels like they're really hitting the heart of what Tolkien sees as the environmental impact of evil.
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I'm not a fan of the latest warg design either (I'd prefer they look more like, y'know, wolves), but it did give us the word "chihuawarg," which has made me giggle several times in the past week. :grin:
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"chihuawarg" :lol: I also have a friend who called it an "ugly Sonic." That's also a completely accurate description. But enough about the silly looking warg, when that's been really the only design I didn't like so far.

I'm glad @Metatron Omega pointed out the look of proto-Mordor looking like a World War 1 battlefield. The parallels to WW1 are there and the orc work camp were the scenes I enjoyed the most.

It actually did remind me of reading soldiers experiences in the trench warfare of WW1. It was a lot of trench digging and soldiers living in the trenches because if you ran out you would most likely die.

By 1918 all but one of my close friends was dead. (Foreward to Lord of the Rings)

Perhaps in landscape. The Dead Marshes and the approaches to the Morannon owe something to Northern France after the Battle of the Somme. (Letter 226)


Watching the orc work camp scenes made me think of these Tolkien quotes. The hope and plan of escape, the buildup of tension and desperation of the captives frantically working together, while the orcs are visibly hurt by sunlight. Orcs able to counter and halt the escape by releasing the warg. "Is someone going to get out?" But hopes are suddenly dashed. All of Arondir's friends a dead and the view above the trench is a desolate waste.

I have problems with the names of characters, the dialogue, the pacing and various nitpicks, but I think it's progressing in the right direction (or at least in directions that have me intrigued!) I find it hard to believe the critics who say the writers never read Tolkien, or obviously don't understand it, when there are scenes like at the orc work camp that have striking parallels to how World War 1 effected and influenced people (like Tolkien).
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Eldy Dunami wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:42 pm I'm not a fan of the latest warg design either (I'd prefer they look more like, y'know, wolves), but it did give us the word "chihuawarg," which has made me giggle several times in the past week. :grin:
I'd like to know what that first creature was in the garden which I thought was the warg design which I really liked compared to the most recent design.
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@Fuin Elda, it appears in the Ep. 5 preview we will be seeing that creature again this week. :smile:

@Eldy Dunami, mind if I ask you what about the Orcs and Numenor do you find disappointing? Sorry, if you've mentioned it already, I'm just curious to hear a different opinion from mine. I agree I think it would be great to see Orcs in a non-military setting (which I kind of doubt we will), but I already think what they've done for the orcs is more than what we've gotten in Jackson's adaptations, and in other fantasy settings.

-I got the impression from Episodes 2 and 3 that even running into a single orc is an extremely dangerous encounter in this world. That's a refreshing feeling, considering the cannon fodder treatment they usually getting. Every time they're on screen, I get tense with anticipation and can't take my eyes off, because of the threat of encountering just a single orc.

-I liked the look and design even better than Jackson's (which I thought were great in Lord of the Rings and subpar in The Hobbit). But I like the look of ROP orcs even more. The headdresses, to the ashen-grey skin tone, the coverings to protect from sunlight, I think sets their looks apart from a conventional high fantasy design. Particularly in this genre and medium, I think a lot have been inspired by Jackson's/WETA designs, so there's quite a bit of similarity and copying of a high fantasy setting. I like to see something different, break the trend, even if it's not lining up with my vision.

-The physically being hurt by sunlight is the best decision, in my opinion. Even if you can say it's probably a bit over the top and I can see possibly being an easy out for the protagonists to escape. Like, "oh we need to get the heroes out of this danger, so let there be light." As long as that's not overused, I think it's ok. And I prefer being over the top with the sunlight weakness, to basically ignoring it like Jackson did. In the LOTR trilogy there's mentions about Saruman's Uruk-hai being able to move under sunlight, and there's the "shadow" that's spreading out to cover the orcs during the Siege of Minas Tirith. I still think it got glossed over in the LOTR trilogy, and completely ignored in The Hobbit. So it's excellent the ROP series has chosen to go the opposite route, and have it not be a minor inconvenience, but actually a major weakness.
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Boromir88 wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:47 am@Eldy Dunami, mind if I ask you what about the Orcs and Numenor do you find disappointing? Sorry, if you've mentioned it already, I'm just curious to hear a different opinion from mine. I agree I think it would be great to see Orcs in a non-military setting (which I kind of doubt we will), but I already think what they've done for the orcs is more than what we've gotten in Jackson's adaptations, and in other fantasy settings.
No worries about asking! My reservations about ROP's Orcs are basically for the same reasons I've seen people praise them: they're presented as malevolent, terrifying monsters of the sort that stalk human nightmares. I get why people like to see this, but one of the most important things about Tolkien's Orcs in The Lord of the Rings—specifically LOTR, not the entire legendarium—is how strikingly human they are. Yes, the text relentlessly others and dehumanizes anyone of even partial Orkish descent through both narrative editorializing and spoken dialogue, but the beings we see interact with each other are not mere creatures. (I have a lot more to say about this, but I'll spare everyone in this thread the full ramble since it's largely beside the point.)

This is an uncomfortable topic, because it's Orcs' sentience and human-ness in LOTR that highlights the moral odiousness of the the good guys treating an entire "race" of people as irredeemably evil beings whom it is not only acceptable but desirable to slaughter en masse. Tolkien struggled with the implications of this at length in Myths Transformed, focusing especially on the question of whether Ilúvatar would grant Orcs souls (fëar). While he never settled on a final answer, their evident sentience remains "on the record" in LOTR itself. I would rather see adaptations acknowledge and grapple with the moral complexity this creates, but I understand why most people prefer to set it aside in favor of Orkish monstrosity.

All that said, I can agree it's nice to see Orcs' weakness to sunlight acknowledged in an official adaptation, but I think making them sizzle and burn is a bit much. We see the contrast in different groups of Orcs' reaction to sunlight in The Two Towers, and it's notable but not on the level of movie vampires emitting smoke and recoiling in pain.

In the afternoon Uglúk’s troop overtook the Northerners. They were flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolling out.

‘Maggots!’ jeered the Isengarders. ‘You’re cooked. The Whiteskins will catch you and eat you. They’re coming!’
As for Númenor, I don't necessarily have much criticism for ROP, it's just that I've spent more time dwelling on Númenor than any other part of Tolkien's Secondary World, so I'm unreasonably touchy about changes to it. That doesn't mean ROP's version is bad, though I do think it's kinda boring to reduce the fundamentally religious resentment of the Númenóreans against the Valar (to which the Eldar are mostly bystanders, aside from fear-mongering about Eressëans—but not the Eldar of Middle-earth—serving as spies) into prosaic "Elves will take our jerbs" rhetoric. That's in keeping with the show's apparent hesitance to give too much attention to the Valar, and perhaps to religious themes at all, though we'll have to wait and see about the latter.
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