PhD Research Prospect

"As for myself," said Eomer, "I have little knowledge of these deep matters; but I need it not."
Newborn of Lothlorien
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@Romeran You're missing my key word. "Truly". I did not state that he did not care about The Hobbit and LotR. I said that he cared about them differently than "truly", by that, I repeat, not meaning that he cared about them falsely, but that he did not put his whole heart in them. And of course the general public buys LotR more because that's the main literary phenomenon since the 1960s (it was published in the 50s, but the boom was in the 60s). If The Silmarillion was published first, that would have been the literary phenomenon and there would be no point in discussing anything.
You're also missing another important point, when I said:
The Hobbit and LotR (that he wrote precisely because The Silmarillion was not published, with an intent to get through them to get The Silmarillion published. And... guess what? He was right!). :grin:
He labored 10 years (well, 18, actually, from 1937 to 1955) at LotR because he thought that The Silmarillion would be published together, or anyway that it might be published thereafter. And, again, he worked, if John Garth is correct, for 63 years at The Silmarillion, from 1910 to 1973. Why are we still discussing this? The difference is overwhelming. It's not just that he cared more about The Silmarillion. He cared more in a ratio of 63 to 18, that means in percentage more than 400% more. He cared disproportionately more, if we have to make a comparison. But really there should be no comparison at all.

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Ephtariat, I feel for you having to battle two opponents at once, so I'm going to set myself the challenge of combining a reply to two posts together. The challenge is self-indulgent, however, because the certain result is that nobody will understand either side of my reply. But the long and the short is that I say to both of you that Tolkien's passion for Beowulf is discounted at your peril.

Here is what the wise would take to be the foundation of Tolkien's reflections on Beowulf, voiced in a footnote to a work of 1937 by his one-time Leeds colleague E.V. Gordon.
Beowulf is regarded as an elegy on the common Old English theme lif is læne [life is fleeting]. The relation of the two parts of the poem is deliberate contrast: the first part shows the hero in his youth at the height of his physical prowess, and contains a series of heroic pictures designed to exhibit his strength and nobility; the second part shows the sadness of his old age and death, and implies that with him passes the prosperity of his people. Thus all that is noblest in life passes and cannot be replaced. The second part is not merely an additional adventure; it gives the meaning of the whole poem. There can be no doubt of the essential unity of Beowulf: the whole poem is carefully planned to show the tragedy and importance of its elegiac theme.
Ephtariat wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:18 pm He worked at the First Age stories throughout his life, while he only came up with Second and Third Age stories after 1930, when he was 38 (almost the middle of his life), and he even came up with the notion of further Ages after the first only after 1936, when he was 44 (older than the middle of his life).
Beowulf is elegy, and elegy is a bitter drink that the young have no taste for. Elegy is the wisdom of age, which is purchased only with pain, and arises only when it is too late. Your presupposition that the imagination of youth is greatest because it endures longest is merely a willful closing of the eyes to the art that arises in a poet midway through the highway of life.
Romeran wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 10:46 pm I think your very obviously strong bias towards the Silmarillion is showing (just like @Hill 's bias for The Hobbit :wink: )
One of the intentions of The Hobbit is evidently to discover an antidote to elegy. This antidote Tolkien comes to call 'Fairy-story', which is why in previous discussions on the plaza (primarily with @Troelsfo) I have underlined the importance of The Hobbit as standing in the background of Tolkien's essay 'On Fairy-stories'.

The antidote to elegy is achieved by imagining a hero who has no adventures at all before the age of 50, and then one day a wizard walks up the Hill and scratches a queer sign on the door of this middle-aged bachelor, and the next thing you know and he is playing the role of the nameless thief in Beowulf, he who steals a cup and wakes the wrath of the Dragon.
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@Hill I'll reply by three quotes. The first is the synopsis of Irish Immacallam in dá Thuarad, or “Colloquy of the Two Sages”, by Whitley Stokes:
On the death of Adnae, the chief-poet of Ulster in the reign of Conchobar mac Nessa, his official robe was conferred on Ferchertne, a famous elderly bard. Adnae's young and beardless son, Néde, who was then studying in Scotland under Eochu Echbél, heard thèse tidings from a sea-wave and procecded to Emain to claim the robe. At the instigation of Briccriu Poison tongue, and in the temporary absence of Ferchertne, Néde donned the poet's robe, fixed a beard of grass on his face, and sat down in the poet's chair. Shortly afterwards Ferchertne returned, and addressed the young man indignantly: «Who is this poet, a poet round whom lies the robe with its splendour, whose beard is forged of grass?» Néde replies respectfully that he had been a pupil of a renowned master. Ferchertne then asks whence he had come. Néde answers with a string of kennings, and puts a like question to Ferchertne. Ferchertne replies with a similar string, and then demands Néde's name. Néde answers with ten more kennings. «And thou», he asks, «O my senior, what is thy name?» Six kennings are given in answer, and then Ferchertne asks what art the lad practises. The answer is a séries of metaphors drawn from an Irish poet's life in the early Middle-Ages. A like question to Ferchertne produces a like reply, much of which is obscure. Each then asks theother whither he is going and where he has gone. The answers are in the secret poetic language, the meaning of which can often only be guessed. The poets then ask each other: «Whose son art thou?» Evasive riddling answers are given. Ferchertne then seeks news of the condition of Ireland. Néde replies with the cheerful optimism of youth, and in turn requests Ferchertne for his tidings. Ferchertne then, with an old man's pessimism, foretells all manner of physical and moral evils, including the raids of the vikings on Ireland and the decay of religion, art, poetry and virtue in a country ruined by invasion and intertribal strife. The birth of Antichrist is prophesied, and the perishing of the world. «Knowest thou», says Ferchertne at last, «who is above thee?» «God and Ferchertne», is the substance of the answer. Néde then gives up the poet's robe to Ferchertne, rises from the poet's chair, and is about to cast himself at the old man's feet, when Ferchertne stays him, and bestows a crowd of blessings on the youth. The pièce ends with reciprocal blessings from Néde, and his acknowledgment of Ferchertne as his second father. (Stokes 1905: 4-5)
The second quote is the epilogue to my own retelling of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, titled Sir Gawain and the Princess of Elfland:
Merlin had to lean on his oaken staff to manage to climb the steep, rocky steps of the caves, but eventually reached the stony terrace where he knew he would find the sorceress. Morgan was standing on the edge of the natural balcony, looking from above into the magical pool below. “Even you, Morgan…” Merlin began, but soon he had to stop because his heart was pounding too fast from climbing. A thousand generations of mortals I have lived, fresh as a rose, but now, eventually, I feel old and tired… just when my power is most needed. He started anew: “Even you, Morgan, must admit the young knight accomplished quite a feat…” Morgan casually nodded, looking as though he was bothering her over some small matter, while she was busy on something much more important.

“Loyalty…” Merlin mused, quite pleased, “a quality we had thought lost… Instead, perhaps, there is hope for Camelot indeed. There is hope for Avalon. There is hope for mankind. We were not sent here just to be mindless wheels in unending cycles, as you said once…” Morgan frowned. “How can you be so naive, wizard? Even someone as old as you, who remembers the days of Atlantis and Mu, who stole the stones from the Irish Giants, who tasted food from the Cauldron of Dagda, who saw the Flower-Girl Blathnath before she was abducted in the Underworld?” “You know how they say, Morgan, the old bard listens to songs of hope, the young bard to songs of defeat?” “But the young bard sings the songs of hope, and the old bard sings the songs of defeat!” “And yet each of them may sing the songs he listened to”. Morgan frowned again, as though the old wizard was a hopeless case.

“Tell me, Morgan”, Merlin insisted, “what do you hope to see in your precious pool? Are you aware your visions may fool you? Were you not certain Gawain would fail?” Now Morgan was wroth. She backed away from the stony balustrade, and faced her former master. “Beware, WIZARD”, she spoke the word as though it were an insult. Shrouds of darkness seemed to surround her, as Morgan towered over Merlin, her voice echoing through the caves, “I am not your pupil anymore. I have not been for a long time. Now I am the Voice of Thunder, I am the Clouds of Darkness, I am the Fury of Waters. I am the Priestess of Avalon. I am the Lady of the Lake”. She took a deep breath, resuming her normal size, while the dark shrouds around her faded. Morgan smiled upon seeing how impressed Merlin was by her display of power. “What I seek, you ask”, she continued. “Is it not the knowledge everyone seeks? The only knowledge worth knowing? Knowledge of fate?”

Merlin retrieved his stance, tentatively replying: “There are other powers, besides Fate, Morgan. There is choice. There is Mercy”. She laughed out loud. “Do you even listen to yourself? Choice! Mercy!” Morgan bursted into another laughter. Merlin, ignoring her ilarity, stubbornly insisted: “As for what is worth, there certainly are things much worthier to be known, than Fate. Happiness, for one. Love”. Morgan seemed to pity him. “Poor old wizard”, she said. “You have become senile. Let me tell you what I know. Let me tell you about choice, mercy, happiness, and love. Guinevere is unhappy with Arthur. She loves one of his knights, who is torn between love for her and duty, but eventually love shall be his choice. Arthur finds out, and he would show mercy, but he cannot, because he is King. End of Camelot. And what decided this? Fate. And you, Merlin, a pawn in the hands of Fate, when you let a man pursue his intent of adultery, so that Arthur may be conceived. Fate, Merlin. Fate. Not love, not mercy. Fate. Love fooled people at least since Helen of Troy. But you can keep fooling yourself as much as you wish. And you will. Love will be your undoing too, when another pupil of yours will seduce you into teaching her forbidden magic, and she will you use it against you to seal you in the ground. Fate, Merlin. Fate. The only thing there is”. And, having said so, Morgan returned to the balustrade.

Merlin was shaking beyond control. A seizure had taken him, and only little by little he managed to regain possession of his muscles and clarity of conscience. In the back of his mind, he thought he had heard from Morgan something important, something that could save someone, but he could not recall whom or what. “What were you saying, Morgan?” he tried asking her. “That it is a pleasure that you come and pay a visit to me every now and then. It reminds me of the old times…” was her mindless reply. “Of course, Morgan. The good old times. Of course. But…” Merlin tried, one last time. “Yes, Merlin?” “Nothing, Morgan. The good old times. Of course”.
The third quote is from Tolkien's unpublished manuscripts, so I took the liberty of heavily paraphrasing it in order not to quote from unpublished materials (that I'm not authorized to unless the Estate allows me):
Maybe we could call Pearl an elegy. It would be a religious elegy; because the poem is not only a simple lamentation for the deceased. Pearl is not only made of pain and grief, but it also contains philosophy and theology. From said theology the poet is consoled, thus surpassing the necessity to lament and complain for his loss. However, in the English tradition, the elegiac genre has for a long time been thought to also include poetry that transcends lament into a meditative state. The word "elegy" this way could refer to a poem in which religious salvation is theologically discussed (and especially as related to salvation of children in Paradise), because mourning for a lost child motivates it, thus impregnating the whole debate with urgency and passion. If there was no combination of theology with a great feeling of loss for a beloved one, the poem Pearl could be deemed to be just a theological treatise discussing an erudite point.

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Ephtariat wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2024 11:38 pm “What I seek, you ask”, she continued. “Is it not the knowledge everyone seeks? The only knowledge worth knowing? Knowledge of fate?”

Merlin retrieved his stance, tentatively replying: “There are other powers, besides Fate, Morgan. There is choice. There is Mercy”. She laughed out loud. “Do you even listen to yourself? Choice! Mercy!” Morgan bursted into another laughter. Merlin, ignoring her ilarity, stubbornly insisted: “As for what is worth, there certainly are things much worthier to be known, than Fate. Happiness, for one. Love”. Morgan seemed to pity him. “Poor old wizard”, she said. “You have become senile. Let me tell you what I know. Let me tell you about choice, mercy, happiness, and love. Guinevere is unhappy with Arthur. She loves one of his knights, who is torn between love for her and duty, but eventually love shall be his choice. Arthur finds out, and he would show mercy, but he cannot, because he is King. End of Camelot. And what decided this? Fate. And you, Merlin, a pawn in the hands of Fate, when you let a man pursue his intent of adultery, so that Arthur may be conceived. Fate, Merlin. Fate. Not love, not mercy. Fate. Love fooled people at least since Helen of Troy. But you can keep fooling yourself as much as you wish. And you will. Love will be your undoing too, when another pupil of yours will seduce you into teaching her forbidden magic, and she will you use it against you to seal you in the ground. Fate, Merlin. Fate. The only thing there is”. And, having said so, Morgan returned to the balustrade.
Ephtariat, I am so very glad you are posting on the plaza. I enjoyed the above tremendously.

I've been mulling over your PhD statement and have some criticism of method. If you wish I can attempt to voice them. Possibly a new thread in Undertowers?
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@Ephtariat, on the relative importance of the Silmarillion and the LotR, what I actually think is that (a) you are right, but (b) you miss a trick.

(a) The way you put things last night is unhelpful because of the negative to the non-Silmarillion. There is simply no need to suggest that Tolkien did not in his heart of hearts care for LotR to make your real point that what he cared for most of all was the story of Beren and Luthien. Putting things as you do generates argument that is all smoke because we can probably all accept the real point you wish to make.

(b) What you don't take on board is that The Lord of the Rings became for Tolkien his ultimate Silmarillion story. Here, ironically, it is you who are taken in by the accidents of publishing history, which have created a world of reception in which the relationship between LotR and the Silmarillion has been obscured and the works are taken as unclearly related.
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@Hill
I've been mulling over your PhD statement and have some criticism of method. If you wish I can attempt to voice them. Possibly a new thread in Undertowers?
The methodology will be treated in the introduction, that is possibly the first thing I'm going to write. So, I certainly am interested in your advice.

And thanks for your compliments on "Sir Gawain and the Princess of Elfland". If you're interested in reading the whole thing, you may find it here on my blog.

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@Hill I tried to specify that I love LotR. I guess we all got carried by our end of the argument. But I do think that the relationship between The Silmarillion and LotR is comparable to that between the true love of your heart and, let's say, a dear acquaintance, or, if I have to be kinder still, let's say a dear friendship. Yes, I don't think there's his heart of hearts in LotR. But that does not imply it has no heart. There's Aragorn and Arwen, for one. But it's in the Appendices, and if you compare them to Beren and Luthien you can see how he both was repeating himself and did not fully believe in it (take Arwen's end in grief, and compare it to "And long ago they passed away / In the forest singing sorrowless" from The Song of Beren and Luthien. And yes, the latter is still in LotR, but it's mostly taken from the Lay of Leithian).

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Ephtariat wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:14 am There's Aragorn and Arwen, for one. But it's in the Appendices, and if you compare them to Beren and Luthien you can see how he both was repeating himself and did not fully believe in it (take Arwen's end in grief, and compare it to "And long ago they passed away / In the forest singing sorrowless" from The Song of Beren and Luthien. And yes, the latter is still in LotR, but it's mostly taken from the Lay of Leithian).
You are characterizing the two tales completely correctly and yet comparing the two tales in the wrong way. These two love stories are of course reiterations of the same, and of course that of Aragorn and Arwen is but a shadow of the story of Beren and Luthien. That is the lesson of the ages, fashioned only with composition of The Lord of the Rings. In this great story of the end of the Third Age we get a peek, a glimpse, of the Light of an earlier age of the world, when all the world was enchanted - Aragorn chants some of the 'real' story on Weathertop. The story of Aragorn and Arwen is fashioned as a lesser story of lesser sires, so to speak. My point being that what you take as Tolkien's heart not being in this tale of the War of the Ring is rather a mark of very deliberate craft.
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@Hill I think it's both. He skilfully crafted the tale of Aragorn and Arwen, but it came chiefly out of his mind. It's more a product of fine intellect than heartfelt passion. The tale of Beren and Luthien, especially in The Tale of Tinuviel, has less skill into it. He did not put so much reflection into it. But it has all his heart. See what I mean?

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Yes, I see what you mean. And I maintain you are not seeing the whole picture of LotR and this relates to your not seeing how the elegy of Beowulf weaves together the doom of the individual with the doom of the world, so that the appendix of Aragorn and Arwen is but one loose-end in a vision of Doom in Time that indeed has as its center the Silmarillion stories that you point to, but this center is hidden in this (3rd) age of the world and is not explained to us only shown in the narrative, shown by the whole story of LotR, as also almost every part of it. You see the vision of the First Age, but not the craft by which it is hidden in The Lord of the Rings. That hiding amounts to a thesis about History as Forgetting, so that all tales of the past are struggles against the night, and the way of worlds and peoples as well as each one of us is into the dark. This is the elegy that is the other side of the fairy-story of the destruction of the One Ring in the fiery mountain.
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I see it instead, but I think that already in Beren and Luthien the fate of the individual and the world were connected, but in a positive manner. Theirs was still termed doom because they had to die in order to get married and that "only" bought them a lifetime of bliss, not eternity or a life as long as the existence of the world. As the prologue to the Tale in The Silmarillion tells us:
Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures. And of these histories most fair still in the ears of the Elves is the tale of Beren and Lúthien. Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs concerning the world of old; but here is told in fewer words and without song.
So, you see, it's still a tale of sorrow and ruin. It is still elegy. But, as in the comment on Pearl I paraphrased above, it is an elegy that offers consolation, in this case in a Romantic Christian theology of Love. Remember how Eucatastrophe "does not deny the existence of dyscatastrophe, of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is evangelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief" (OFS 75).
It's Tolkien's idea of joyful sorrow, that has a lot of precedents in Christian theology. In order to know joy, you must experience sorrow. Truly, holy joy and holy sorrow are one, inextricable. You may find it in clear letters in LotR, on the field of Cormallen:
And all the host laughed and wept, and in the midst of their merriment and tears the clear voice of the minstrel rose like silver and gold, and all men were hushed. And he sang to them, now in the elven-tongue, now in the speech of the West, until their hearts, wounded with sweet words, overflowed, and their joy was like swords, and they passed in thought out to regions where pain and delight flow together and tears are the very wine of blessedness. (LotR VI, iv)
But I prefer the way he says it in fewer words in the Lay of Leithian, when Beren falls in love with Luthien:
Forwandered, wayworn, gaunt was he,
his body sick and heart gone cold,
grey in his hair, his youth turned old;
for those that tread that lonely way
a price of woe and anguish pay.
And now his heart was healed and slain
with a new life and with new pain.
(Lay of Leithian 550-556)
"Healed and slain with a new life and with new pain". This is joyful sorrow in a nutshell. Ulmo offers further commentary:
In the deep places he gives thought to music great and terrible; and the echo of that music runs through all the veins of the world in sorrow and in joy; for if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomed at the foundations of the Earth. (The Silmarillion i)
And the epitome of joyful sorrow is the song of Luthien:
The song of Lúthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall ever hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and the listening the Valar grieved. For Lúthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds that were made by Ilúvatar to dwell in Arda, the Kingdom of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since. (The Silmarillion xix)
So, truly, I think that the story of Beren and Luthien is far superior to anything else that he wrote. LotR pales in comparison. And it's not a matter of skill. I'm sure LotR is far more skilful than the Tale of Tinuviel, and the Lay is entirely poetry but is (sigh...) unfinished. And yet, even so, there are no doubts where Tolkien's whole heart was.

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And all because Lúthien came down out of her tree. But you don't get what is elegaic in The Lord of the Rings.
Last edited by Chrysophylax Dives on Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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That certainly helped! :smile:

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That is the symbol in Tolkien's mind. From before Beren was mortal.
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I see what you mean now. I got confused over the matter of haircutting earlier. But still, that's only a hint of her future renunciation. She might conceivably had done one and not the other. So, I think it's halfway between what I previously said and what you're saying now.

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Dear @Silky Gooseness, I would beg you please not to take this in the wrong way. But @Ephtariat and myself have a genuine point of disagreement. I would dearly value your opinion, one way or another. But in terms of legal paperwork, might I suggest that as a case brought to the Halls of Injustice we are already looking at a small forest of huorns?

So what I really wish to say is that, far from insinuating a Mordor legal threat, on the underlying issue here (whatever exactly it is), I agree with you.
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Nice! :grin:

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Ephtariat wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 8:51 am
Among the tales of sorrow and of ruin that come down to us from the darkness of those days there are yet some in which amid weeping there is joy and under the shadow of death light that endures. And of these histories most fair still in the ears of the Elves is the tale of Beren and Lúthien. Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs concerning the world of old; but here is told in fewer words and without song.
So, you see, it's still a tale of sorrow and ruin. It is still elegy. But, as in the comment on Pearl I paraphrased above, it is an elegy that offers consolation, in this case in a Romantic Christian theology of Love... Remember how Eucatastrophe "does not deny the existence of dyscatastrophe, of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is evangelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief" (OFS 75).
Where is the ruin in the tale of Beren and Lúthien?

What you are doing is pointing to the play of sorrow and joy out of which Tolkien teases his model of Fairy-stories out of his model of elegy (Beowulf). Fairy-story and elegy are profoundly bound up, in Tolkien's thinking. The hall mark of a fairy-story, says Tolkien in OFS, is the unlooked for turn to joy, beyond all hope or expectation, the miraculous turn.

Elegy is the art that comforts us as we wake up to the reality that life is not a fairy-story and look catastrophe in the eye. Elegy is the drink of those to whom the dragon has already come. Elegy is the art that comforts those who have nothing to hope for and expect no miracle. Elegy consoles, that is what its use is - it has no other, it offers the consolation of art, which is little more than a knowledge that others too have looked despair in the face, and some came out the other side with a certain image of beauty, which is memory.
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... one famous critic informed his public that Beowulf was 'only small beer'. Yet if beer at all, it is a drink dark and bitter: a solemn funeral-ale with the taste of death.
J.R.R. Tolkien 'On Translating Beowulf'
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@Hill I'm sorry, but I don't agree, especially since that's not what I think that Tolkien thought. I quoted earlier from my paraphrase of a passage in the unpublished manuscripts that Tolkien distinguishes between elegy as a lamentation (the "comforting" kind, if you will) and elegy as a consolation, that makes one aware of the fact that defeat is not final, and the final end is in joy. In this latter sense, Beren and Luthien is an elegy. Certainly there is ruin for Finrod, for the other Elves escorting him and Beren, for Gorlim, and especially for Beren and Luthien themselves when they die. But that ruin does not have the last word, and the fact that the couple is reunited after death to come back to life is a hint of the fact that eventually it will be so for everyone.
Last edited by Ephtariat on Mon Mar 18, 2024 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hill wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:23 am Dear @Silky Gooseness, I would beg you please not to take this in the wrong way. But @Ephtariat and myself have a genuine point of disagreement. I would dearly value your opinion, one way or another. But in terms of legal paperwork, might I suggest that as a case brought to the Halls of Injustice we are already looking at a small forest of huorns?

So what I really wish to say is that, far from insinuating a Mordor legal threat, on the underlying issue here (whatever exactly it is), I agree with you.
Hi! What am I exactly being asked here: which one of you I most agree with? :lol:
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Ephtariat wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 7:47 pm (...)There's no other major religion that offers the same universal hope and consolation. (...)
@Ephtariat Please be aware that phrases such as the above are rather your personal perspective than fact - but even stating that one as your personal opinion would mean you are 'elevating' one religion/belief over another, which is against rule 4 of the general plaza rules ("the plaza is not the place to discuss the merits of one religion over another'). I know it's a fine line sometimes, perhaps easily crossed when discussing a matter like this one, but regardless it is something we have to be and stay mindful about. So the admins would appreciate your acknowledgement of this and a correction from you. Thanks!
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@Arnyn sure
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Of course
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@Ephtariat For the record, your statement in question does not include the term 'salvation'. It speaks of 'hope and consolation'. Regardless, we're not going to be drawn into a discussion about whether or not your statement is true or false or debatable or anything else - no matter how interesting we might find such a discussion. Because the simple fact of the matter is that your quoted statement is against one of the general plaza rules and as admins we need to make sure that these rules are followed. If you want to continue to engage in any discussions here, you will need to abide by them. So the admin team is kindly asking you, a second time, to either correct or withdraw that statement, and to play by the rules in the future...
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@Arnyn Understood.
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Ephtariat wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:25 pm @Arnyn I'm not preaching, I'm merely stating a fact. Universal salvation is only a trait of (some versions of) the Christian faith, so I'm not arguing that Christianity is better than the other religions, but merely making a point that, since Tolkien had the hope of universal salvation, this hope had to come from Christianity.
Ephtariat wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 7:27 pm And of course if anybody can bring proof that there are notions of universal salvation in other religions I will be interested in reading them, and considering whether Tolkien might have been aware of that and be influenced by that.
Ephtariat wrote: Mon Mar 18, 2024 12:09 am @Arnyn Understood. If I say salvation instead of hope and consolation is it acceptable?
No. General Rule Number 4 says that the Plaza is not the space to discuss "the merits of one religion over another." In the Plaza DEI Statement in regards to that, "we encourage Plaza members to approach these types of topics with regard to how they intersect with their personal lives or the works of Tolkien only, rather than seeking to promote or put down, for instance, a [...] religious affiliation."

While we see that you are trying to discuss how some denominations of Christianity interact with the works of Tolkien, your statement "had to come from Christianity" is arguing for a unique quality, that can be easily seen as a merit, of a religion in comparison to others. Second, in your follow-up post, you are making the burden of proof fall on other posters to bring up the merits of other religions, essentially promoting the merits of said religion, potentially leading to other violations of General Rule Number 4 from other members of our site.

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@Arnyn @Rivvy Elf there you go.

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Silky Gooseness wrote: Fri Mar 15, 2024 9:05 am
Hill wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2024 9:23 am Dear @Silky Gooseness, I would beg you please not to take this in the wrong way. But @Ephtariat and myself have a genuine point of disagreement. I would dearly value your opinion, one way or another. But in terms of legal paperwork, might I suggest that as a case brought to the Halls of Injustice we are already looking at a small forest of huorns?

So what I really wish to say is that, far from insinuating a Mordor legal threat, on the underlying issue here (whatever exactly it is), I agree with you.
Hi! What am I exactly being asked here: which one of you I most agree with? :lol:
Dear Silky Gooseness, a Tree I once knew used to say 'don't be hasty!' And that just goes to show, because it was surely incaution that did for him in the end (struck by lightning). Naturally, my statement of agreement holds also for necessary cases of police brutality. (@Ephtariat, you and I must both accept that these admins have the monopoly on magical online force, as is only right.)

What I am asking is in part what you see in Ephtariat's reconstruction of this great romance of Tolkien's imagination in terms of folktale or fairy-tale types?

If it helps to see some of the disagreement (my friend will speak for himself): it seems to me that these types are abstractions of other people; we don't seem to have Tolkien anywhere talking in these terms. What we have is the drafts of the story that Tolkien wrote. My way into this story is to take its own elements, such as the miraculous escape from the tree, and to wonder how this seed grows into the great synthesis that Ephtariat is sketching for us.

I don't know the tale as do the two of you. And I must say that I find Ephtariat's thesis of some kind of Elvish synthesis intriguing, though to be honest, I don't really understand it; and I was very much hoping you might explain it (please).

If you scroll above we have some kind of formulation: one type of tale shows a male tyrant (the giant with a daughter whom the hero must rescue) and another shows the female a fairy who draws the mortal lover by magic; but then this bit that I do not understand - the 'reverse orpheus' fairy-tale turn = a female renunciation of power leaving everyone happy!? (I might be confused on the renunciation.)

At this point, @Ephtariat, I of course invite you to correct (politely, and as concisely as possible!) my formulation of (and only of) this synthesis (male tyrant, female magic, female renunciation). I must say that this renunciation and fairy-tale ending sounds dubious to me, but that might be because I have not the foggiest idea what my friend is talking about.

Silky Gooseness, what I agree with you on is your unpacking, analysis, reflection on and conclusions regarding my friend's most interesting thesis. What I am requesting (pretty please with honey on) is that you explain the opinion that I agree with. Thank you. :smooch:

PS. The Undertowers Fairy has explained to me about wāts, so take your time please.

PPS. The Fairy also says that you should feel free to top up on (one or two) cream cakes.
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@Hill The Giant's Daughter and the Fairy Mistress are both tales concerned with the social sanction of marriage. In Tolkien's own life, that sanction had to come from social status (and the income it brought) and religious approval. To gain social status, Tolkien had to spend 3 years apart from Edith dedicating himself to his studies. To gain religious approval, Tolkien had to come of age, so still the 3 years were required. But this, in Tolkien's mind, was all secondary to Edith's consent to marriage, that after the 3 years had passed was not at all guaranteed. Consent from Edith was subject to the same conditions: acceptance of a lower social status (since Tolkien was poorer than Edith) and acceptance to come to terms with Tolkien's Catholicism. Edith decided to accept both Tolkien's poorness and his religion, and indeed she shared her substances with him, and even converted to Catholicism (despite subsequent second thoughts).
In this light, the Giant's Daughter and Fairy Mistress types both converge as the same tale of a man who has to achieve impossible suitor's tasks with the help of supernatural helpers to win a supernatural wife. That these tasks are required by the prospect wife or her father, that they are benevolently required by a woman already in love, or asked for by a tyrant with a look to getting rid of a disturber, is secondary. Tolkien did not think of either Father Francis Morgan or Edith herself as tyrants, and their benevolence in any case would not guarantee him success. Indeed, he may have seen them as the helpers, since Luthien helps Beren, and Finrod does the same. Father Francis was not Edith's father, in any case. So, the identity of the person asking for the extraordinary feats in exchange for the bride's hand is secondary.
What is important is that both tales ask for conditions that DO NOT guarantee success even when respected. It does not matter if the person asking for them was dishonest (as in Culhwch and Olwen) or if he was honest (as Thingol) but Beren's honor postpones the marriage after he hunts Carcharoth, in which enterprise he dies. The point is that the whole impossible task, even when undertaken successfully, and even with both father and bride eventually agreeing to the marriage, is NOT ENOUGH for the marriage to take place. This is reflected in the fact that when the 3 years had passed Edith might have refused Tolkien, since she was betrothed to another man. But that's just biographical anecdote. The real reason is deeper: the necessity that, in order to marry him, a woman renounces that part of her prerogatives that obstacles her marriage with a man. It is a sacrifice, and it is only done for love. This is what Luthien's renouncement of immortality means: renouncement of her people, of her family, of her life alone. In this sense, it is the Reverse Orpheus type that solves the problems of the Giant's Daughter/Fairy Mistress. If one is asked impossible conditions before marrying a woman, that means they cannot marry, that she doesn't really want it, even when she says she does. They may marry only after she renounces her doubts on him, not because he deserves it (no-one does, really) but because she is really willing to do so, as a sacrifice for love. I'm not discussing Beren's (or Tolkien's) sacrifices only because in this perspective they are taken for granted, they mean nothing by themselves, and cannot assure any result. So, that she's the helper, that she descends from the tower, it's all nice and pretty: but is she willing to really commit to him? That's the point, in my opinion.

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Sorry, in the previous comment I made it look as though Edith/Luthien was somehow to blame that she didn't decide that she wanted Tolkien/Beren from the start. That was not my idea, but by rereading I realized it may look that way. I see things too much from the "Elf-centred" perspective, I guess. :lol:
I think that Tolkien really saw women as superior to men, and this is indicated in Letter 43 when he says that women are naturally monogamous. For Tolkien that was the greatest compliment that he could ever make them, even though, since he held it to be the truth, he wouldn't see it as a compliment but just stating facts. Today I've even seen people quote the comment as an indicator of sexism, like "men can do what they want, women can't", but that's a serious misunderstanding. Tolkien held loyalty to be the highest virtue, so saying that women just want the one man was a way to highly praise them.
Now, if this is true, how does it come together with what I was previously stating? Simply, because Tolkien thought that women, being superior to men, and being their loyalty absolute, would not just marry anybody, but only a man who can give them a future. Now, both marrying Tolkien for Edith and Beren for Luthien would mean compromising their future, so theirs is a great sacrifice the scale of which is given by the same impossible task that was given to their suitors. Saying that Luthien was worth a Silmaril or that Edith could be married to Tolkien after 3 years not seeing each other nor hearing from each other are both ways to say that the sacrifice she would be making by marrying her suitor is simply incomparable. That is also why, after both Tolkien and Beren devote themselves fully to the undertaking, both Luthien and Edith decide to make the sacrifice. It is not like Tolkien's and Beren's sacrifice is worth as much as the one requested to Luthien and Edith, but Tolkien and Beren did everything they could, and Luthien and Edith decide that this "everything", despite its actual small worth, is actually worth infinitely more because it was their "everything". It's not logic, it's love. You can describe it, not explain it. :wink:

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You see, @Silky Gooseness? While I most certainly agree with you on this one, the fact is that all this High Elf stuff and all the rest is a bit over my head, and so I feel a tad uncomfortable not being quite clear in my own head what it is that I agree with.

Is it possible to reduce all this to an explanation of the life decisions of Beladonna Took, whose great adventure was to become Mrs. Bungo Baggins and the mother of Bilbo?

What I really wish for, of course, is a better understanding of the tree business. Here, though, I think I need to tackle my friend on his Gawain story, which begins with a climb up a tower to talk to an impotent Merlin. I don't think the tower bit of this story works, but I need to read it over again.

Meanwhile, @Ephtariat, reflecting on our discussion of elegy. I don't think we are really so far apart, though what distance there is may be vast. From where I stand, you are looking at the light, myself at the dark, and it seems to me that you cannot really appreciate the power and force of the light because you will not let yourself look with eyes wide open into the dark. And I'd say that the art of J.R.R. Tolkien as a storyteller, even in a story so innocent as the adventures of Bilbo Baggins, rests upon his clear vision of the evil and terrible that is always lurking just the other side of wonder.
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@Ephtariat, I like the way you have reduced the myth of the two lovers of mixed race to the biography of the two mortal lovers. I'm not quite clear how it all works in the account that you give, though I certainly see your direction. But with regards my holding up elegy as a drink for the old, I would insist that mid-life realities are discounted at your critical peril.

I never looked too hard at Edith, but one does not receive the impression of a happy woman. She seems never to have settled into Oxford society. I recall some snippet from a biography with J.R.R.T. sleeping in another room because his snoring disturbed Edith. And there are various other anecdotes, none of which give the impression that being married to this man was in all ways a fairy-tale romance.

And this midlife biography has bearing on what you are saying. Because if one makes an ultimate fairy-story mythical romance out of one's marriage, then life itself as lived with one's partner (and creations) demands reflection - and art is made only out of honest reflection.

I accept your characterization of the story of Beren and Lúthien as the absolute romance of Tolkien's imagination. What astonishes me, or at least prompts me to blink a few times, is your presumption that this is the end as well as the beginning of the art of J.R.R. Tolkien. If the man is looking at this same story for the rest of his life, while looking at his marriage as it has evolved, do you really think that the fairy-tale element (love-at-first-sight and love-that-passes-between-warring-houses or the love-that-conquers-death, or what have you) endures alone and unchallenged?

What is going on in the very late tale of Smith of Wootton Major (1967) that the man who explores Fairy, and one-time dances with the Queen of Fairy, does so by saying goodbye to his wife and children for some days and walking into the Forest and into the perilous realm alone?
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@Hill What you are stating is simply the view I myself used to have when I wrote my Italian monograph on Tolkien, "Oltre le Mura del Mondo" (Beyond the Walls of the World), with the only difference that I gave stronger emphasis to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and Tolkien's Catholicism. In a footnote I have not pasted I mentioned Beowulf in connection to lif is laene. I give you an automatic translation of the key passage in said book (since it is automatic, the quotes may not be the authors's actual words, but a retranslation into English from the Italian translation):
I would agree with Schlobin that passivity is probably the wrong word for both Gawain and Frodo, but nevertheless I think the idea of "passive resistance" is not entirely fallacious. The peculiar quality that Miller and Fyler have vaguely defined can perhaps be called critical reactivity, to be defined as the disposition to react forcefully only in situations of extreme danger, when someone's life is at stake. This seems to be a trait common to Gawain and the hobbits, and I have in mind in particular Frodo in the Burrows, when the courage normally dormant in hobbits awakens in him, and in Mount Doom, when he succumbs to the temptation, according to my personal interpretation, of faced with the thought of having no return and that his fate is sealed, just as Gawain ultimately accepts Lady Bertilak's sash thinking it would save his life.
You can be a hero without being willing to die, and this is precisely because from a Christian perspective death is not the end, precisely because there was Someone who was instead ready to make that sacrifice to save everyone. The mature Tolkien, unlike his youth, reflected at length on these mysteries, to conclude in favor of transcendence: not only does God place himself outside the world, but it is precisely for this reason that human existence and the very presence of human beings are possible: because of the divine presence in it, while immanence now is finally understood as a secondary and non-original moment of the Divinity.
Naturally, one naturally wonders when precisely Tolkien would have changed his opinion. Claudio Antonio Testi (Testi-Arduini 2009, pp. 34-35) identifies 1937 as a moment of transition in Tolkien from the conception of death exclusively as a gift, which, if not in its exclusivity, is not necessarily contrary to Catholicism, to the conception dominant of death as punishment and condemnation of sin. This is evident when in The Lost Road the Professor writes: "There is a shadow, but it is the shadow of the fear of death" (LR, p. 68, t.d.a.), a prologue to the subsequent definition of death as "doom of 'man” in The Drowning of Anadûnê (SD, p. 361, t.d.a.) and therefore to the ancient human tradition relating to death as a consequence of a Fall, reported by Andreth in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (MR, pp. 345-49), as well as other similar statements by Tolkien in the Letters (No. 131, 212), in the Laws and Customs of the Eldar (MR, pp. 239-40) and in the 1968 BBC interview.
In reality, if we consider a recent article by John Garth (Garth 2017), we can instead find that the dating is slightly earlier, capable of being established with greater precision to December 1936, when Tolkien, in considering what in the days immediately following the 4 he had written in the blurb for The Hobbit requested of him by Allen and Unwin (i.e. that it was a story set between the time of Faërie, as he then called what would later become the First Era, and the present day), had the vision of Nûmenôr which would first inspire The Lost Road itself and then important aspects of The Lord of the Rings, as well as The Drowning of Anadûnê itself. Personally I would add that Tolkien in The Notion Club Papers later called the sinking of Atlantis “the dividing line” between myth and history (SD, p. 249).
But furthermore, in my opinion, it is very likely that Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which Tolkien was translating at that time, with his emphasis on the link between Gawain's eventual guilt and death, could have played an important role in this ride. If there is a work among those that inspired Tolkien to focus on the connection between death and sin with particular emphasis, it is Sir Gawain. The “shadow of the fear of death” in The Lost Road is precisely what causes Gawain to break his pact with Sir Bertilak. As Tolkien will state in a letter to Christopher in 1944, where he will explain that the greatness of the Eucatastrophe consists in offering a brief glimpse of the truth of the "Great World" beyond the "death chain" of material and mechanical cause-effect that binds human actions in this world (Letters, no. 89). Jonathan McIntosh rightly links this notion to Platonic ananke, the inescapable necessity that governs existence (McIntosh 2009, p. 266).
Yet the pact made with Sir Bertilak can also be interpreted as the pact between the star towards which the morning star points, the sun (Gawain), and vegetal nature (Green Knight), for which the former undertakes to resurrect every day (fictitious beheading of Gawain, because the sun doesn't actually die), nourishing human spiritual life (Lady Bertilak's kisses), so that the latter can be resurrected every year (decapitation of vegetation), nourishing animal life (the jokes of Sir Bertilak's hunt).
That the former may not keep the pact is an indication of the original character of the solar cycle, on which the vegetative one depends, but above all it reveals the asymmetry between spirit and nature. Therefore Gawain does not keep the pact precisely to keep it: the band violates the verticality to affirm it, and highlight the sin itself, a later reality or construct not only in light of the original pagan character of the work, which separates us from it, but also of its consequence/way out: death.
Already in 1941 Tolkien wrote to his son Michael:
Beyond this dark, very frustrated life of mine, I propose to you the only great thing to love on earth: the Holy Sacraments. [...] Here you will find adventure, glory, honor, faithfulness and the true path to all your love on this earth, and more than that: death. For the divine paradox that only the omen of death, which brings life to an end and demands surrender from everyone, can preserve and give reality and eternal duration to the relationships on this earth that you seek (love, fidelity, joy) and that every man desires in his heart.
(Letters, n. 43)
On the other hand, it is significant that Christopher wanted to see his translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight published first after his father's death, together with Pearl and Sir Orfeo, reporting at the end a fourth translation, that of the incipit and explicit of another and shorter Middle English poem, preserved in the Vernon Manuscript at the Bodleian Library, by Tolkien entitled Gawain's Leave-Taking.
That Tolkien imagined it was Gawain speaking is significant, although his conjecture cannot be verified with certainty, since the lyrical ego of this poem addresses the theme of death and abandonment of this world. These would be Gawain's words as he left Sir Bertilak's court to head towards the Green Chapel:
Against my will I take my leave,
I cannot stay with you any longer.
What begins always has an end
And even friends, alas, separate.
As much as we can be loved,
Death will take us away from the world,
And when we are led to the grave
Against all odds we take our leave.
(SGPO, p. 149)
Tolkien's turning point can be classified as a Pauline turning point, similarly to what Gaetano Lettieri stated about Saint Paul, who speaks of "Paul's perspective, in which any nostalgia for a lost original perfection is totally missing, completely forgotten, or canceled when it is compared with the event of the cross and the resurrection of the Lord, which generate a new time and hope” (Lettieri 2002 in Psaki and Hindley 2002, p. 35). Of course, Tolkien does not totally forget the nostalgia for original perfection, but he glimpses the same Pauline revelation, so as to take on a perspective undoubtedly similar to that expressed through Ransom by C.S. Lewis of Perelandra: “Whatever you do, He will turn it for good. But it will not be the good He had in store for you if you had obeyed Him. That good is lost forever. The first King [Adam, ed.] and the first Mother [Eve, ed.] of our world did a forbidden thing, and from it He ultimately brought good. But what they did was not good, and we don't know what they lost. And for some no good ever came from it, nor will it ever come” (Perelandra, p. 151). The mature Tolkien finds himself halfway between these considerations and the Pauline "wonder at the God who replaces the Law with Grace, Israel with the entire ecumene, what God himself had chosen for His alliance (Romans 9, 11) , almost like His only creature, with the nothingness of the pagans” (Lettieri 2002 in Psaki and Hindley 2002, p. 36). As Lettieri comments immediately afterwards, and as it is my prerogative to maintain that Tolkien had also intuited in that December 1936, "this wonder suggests the absolute transcendence of Grace with respect to the entire creation. Creation, by contrast, remains enclosed within the limits of the vanity of creaturely autonomy, slave to the 'elements of the world'" (Lettieri 2002 in Psaki and Hindley 2002, ibid.).
Stefano Giuliano, in one of the best critical contributions on Tolkien offered by an Italian author, wrote:
Tolkien's novel offers a plurality of images and symbols connected to death. You could say that Frodo's journey is a journey towards, through and into death.
A path to death because Mordor is the Land of the Dead, a barren and desolate nightmare land, infested with ferocious creatures and ruled by a monstrous tyrant. A journey through death because it takes place by traveling through the typical scenarios of the afterlife, which belong to the mythological and religious tradition: the forest, the mound, the cave, and so on. A journey, finally, into death since, as Eliade would say, only the passing of the old individual allows us to achieve a renewed ontological status, that is, to obtain that condition without which the hero-protagonist could not compete with his saving mission.
Not only. To all this we can add that this process is also a journey beyond death, as the conclusion of the novel indicates, with the navigation towards the land of the immortals.
(Giuliano 2013, p. 127)
Giuliano is certainly right in pointing out these aspects, undoubtedly present, although perhaps he underestimates a fundamental aspect, namely what we can call the vanity of the symbol. The places and internal transformations of the characters described by him, in fact, may allude to death or its overcoming, but nevertheless they do no more than simply represent them. Tolkien's Catholicism, on which Giuliano does not particularly focus, instead shows us how for the author these questions had full relevance and importance effective and concrete (Tolkien would say incarnate). For us readers, just like for the protagonists, the real stakes, our lives, eternity, longevity, are given in a pre-existing condition that only the Ring (Evil in its entirety and not only in its modern incarnation), death, or a divine power may be a question. As we have seen, in fact, even Aman cannot confer the duration of the world on the lives of men, and eternity is something different from longevity. The story of The Lord of the Rings is therefore both much more tragic and much more hopeful.
We will see other aspects of the centrality of death (and resurrection) in Sir Gawain and consequently in Tolkien's work.
So, I understand your view. Forgive me if I say I am not sure that you understand mine, instead. In my opinion, as a 36 yo looking back to his early 30s as the only period of full joy in his life, I think that it is precisely because Tolkien's marriage was not a fairy-tale marriage that he looked with nostalgia and affection to the early days of his youth and his romance with Edith (when everything was perfect). But, differently from me, who can do pretty much the same with the only distinction that I'm looking back to four years ago and he looked back at decades earlier, they had sticked together. No matter their problems, they never let them set them apart. And that, since when I wrote that book and changed my mind, I think to be the real root of Tolkien's imagination. He was always a Romantic poet who wanted to celebrate his woman, but he never actually got his way around that. It was only Christopher who made us realize this. And that's really a miracle, a son fulfilling his father's dearest wish after his death. Excuse me, I have tears to wipe out... :cry:

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Ephtariat wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:55 am @Hill What you are stating is simply the view I myself used to have when I wrote my Italian monograph on Tolkien, "Oltre le Mura del Mondo" (Beyond the Walls of the World), with the only difference that I gave stronger emphasis to Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and Tolkien's Catholicism.

So, I understand your view. Forgive me if I say I am not sure that you understand mine, instead. In my opinion, as a 36 yo looking back to his early 30s as the only period of full joy in his life, I think that it is precisely because Tolkien's marriage was not a fairy-tale marriage that he looked with nostalgia and affection to the early days of his youth and his romance with Edith (when everything was perfect). ... He was always a Romantic poet who wanted to celebrate his woman, but he never actually got his way around that. It was only Christopher who made us realize this. And that's really a miracle, a son fulfilling his father's dearest wish after his death. Excuse me, I have tears to wipe out... :cry:
Well, Ephtariat, I am sure you are correct on many things here. But I fear that nostalgia is a quicksand on which to build an elegy. Throw nostalgia to the dogs, I will have none of it. And nor did Tolkien, nor anyone who holds clear in mind what is meant by the Anglo-Saxon words declaring life fleeting. Romance is fleeting, leaving only memory, indeed! But that act of memory is so dangerous, and nostalgia is a wrong step because taken alone.
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'I will tell you the tale of Tinúviel,' said Strider, 'in brief — for it is a long tale of which the end is not known; and there are none now, except Elrond, that remember it aright as it was told of old. It is a fair tale, though it is sad, as are all the tales of Middle-earth, and yet it may lift up your hearts.' He was silent for some time, and then he began not to speak but to chant softly:

The leaves were long, the grass was green,
The hemlock-umbels tall and fair,
And in the glade a light was seen
Of stars in shadow shimmering.
Tinúviel was dancing there
To music of a pipe unseen,
And light of stars was in her hair,
And in her raiment glimmering....

Strider sighed and paused before he spoke again. 'That is a song,' he said, 'in the mode that is called ann-thennath among the Elves, but is hard to render in our Common Speech, and this is but a rough echo of it. It tells of the meeting of Beren son of Barahir and Lúthien Tinúviel. Beren was a mortal man, but Lúthien was the daughter of Thingol, a King of Elves upon Middle-earth when the world was young; and she was the fairest maiden that has ever been among all the children of this world. As the stars above the mists of the Northern lands was her loveliness, and in her face was a shining light. In those days the Great Enemy, of whom Sauron of Mordor was but a servant, dwelt in Angband in the North, and the Elves of the West coming back to Middle-earth made war upon him to regain the Silmarils which he had stolen; and the fathers of Men aided the Elves. But the Enemy was victorious and Barahir was slain, and Beren escaping through great peril came over the Mountains of Terror into the hidden Kingdom of Thingol in the forest of Neldoreth. There he beheld Lúthien singing and dancing in a glade beside the enchanted river Esgalduin; and he named her Tinúviel, that is Nightingale in the language of old. Many sorrows befell them afterwards, and they were parted long. Tinúviel rescued Beren from the dungeons of Sauron, and together they passed through great dangers, and cast down even the Great Enemy from his throne, and took from his iron crown one of the three Silmarils, brightest of all jewels, to be the bride-price of Lúthien to Thingol her father. Yet at the last Beren was slain by the Wolf that came from the gates of Angband, and he died in the arms of Tinúviel. But she chose mortality, and to die from the world, so that she might follow him; and it is sung that they met again beyond the Sundering Seas, and after a brief time walking alive once more in the green woods, together they passed, long ago, beyond the confines of this world. So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world, and they have lost her whom they most loved. But from her the lineage of the Elf-lords of old descended among Men. There live still those of whom Lúthien was the foremother, and it is said that her line shall never fail. Elrond of Rivendell is of that Kin. For of Beren and Lúthien was born Dior Thingol's heir; and of him Elwing the White whom Eärendil wedded, he that sailed his ship out of the mists of the world into the seas of heaven with the Silmaril upon his brow. And of Eärendil came the Kings of Númenor, that is Westernesse.'

As Strider was speaking they watched his strange eager face, dimly lit in the red glow of the wood-fire. His eyes shone, and his voice was rich and deep. (LoTR I, xi)

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:heart:
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If that's not nostalgia, I don't know what it is. It is pure nostalgia in words.
And I think it represents Tolkien in that moment of his life more than the rest of LotR combined.
You throw nostalgia to the dogs, you've thrown a SIlmaril to Carcharoth. You go get it back if it gets killed you.

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Yes, well those jewels were always a bit of a problem, no? Far better at the bottom of the deep blue sea than causing all those violent manifestations of Elvish lust. Or so it seems to me.

I am unsure if nostalgia for you is the pure form of elegy, or if nostalgia is about a different kind of relationship to time and memory than is elegy.
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It's not primarily a lament, though of course there's a sense of loss. But I rather see it as a reenacting, a celebration of sorts, even if only in one's mind. Like Aragorn at Weathertop. He doesn't say it, but of course he's thinking of Arwen, so it's all very real for him on a personal level. It's about keeping memory of his beloved alive, not despair, nor an idea that you have to complain so you can get detachment. Detachment is the last thing we want, though of course sorrow may paralyze at times. But there's also bliss in reliving joyful memories, and motivation to live on at your best to honor those memories, and even hope beyond reason that you may be reunited with your dear ones, in this life or the next.

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And then there is finding a way to treasure those memories while moving on; because what Aragorn does in this story is help Frodo Baggins on his quest, not mope around in lovesick dreams of the past - with the exception of the foothills of Cerin Amroth.

The telling of the First Age tale on Weathertop is about much more than a reiteration of the First Age love story - it is about meshing Myth and History for the encounter about to unfold with the witch-king of Angmar and the heir of Elendil and the Hobbit with the Ring.
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Ephtariat wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 9:33 am So it is that Lúthien Tinúviel alone of the Elf-kindred has died indeed and left the world, and they have lost her whom they most loved. But from her the lineage of the Elf-lords of old descended among Men. There live still those of whom Lúthien was the foremother, and it is said that her line shall never fail. Elrond of Rivendell is of that Kin. For of Beren and Lúthien was born Dior Thingol's heir; and of him Elwing the White whom Eärendil wedded, he that sailed his ship out of the mists of the world into the seas of heaven with the Silmaril upon his brow. And of Eärendil came the Kings of Númenor, that is Westernesse.'
I do get that this is kind of the great story in Tolkien's head. But is not the point that it is not repeated reiterations of the same story but rather the story of descendants, down long years and ages? So with LotR we have a glimpse of the ripple in Time made by Lúthien descending from her tree (sorry, I make too much of the magic in the tree, but tbh it is the only bit of the story I ever connected to).
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You represent the reason why Tolkien could not publish the Lay in his life. :rasp:

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Why don't you go give them another hint on your riddle?
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I'm set on eating Dwarves really! :rasp:

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Take my advice and don't pursue that one - too much hair and the Dwarf ALWAYS wins at riddles. It is one of those plaza things. Although, of course, you might be the riddler named in the old plaza scrolls, the one who will come one day and defeat the Dwarf at riddles. But that has long been deemed an unlikley myth.

Basically, you got all annoyed with me again because I brought up monsters in the music thread, right?

But it honestly seems to me that you are skirting this issue. You have set down above two early versions of the great romance, the first in which both lovers are Elves and the second - where you see all the good stuff developing - with one an Elf and the other mortal.

Surely the question to ask is what is going on here with this step into love-that-crosses-species? From what I gather from your proposal you believe that the answer is supplied purely by considering the folktale type of the Fairy Mistress, which already in the early 1900s some scholars discerned behind SGGK. But you have to answer the obvious question of why, if Tolkien was reading about these various folktale types back in the 1910s, the Fairy Mistress type did not appear in his tale from the beginning? Why is it that only in the 1920s do the lovers become divided by race?

And asking this question of this transformation of the racial relationship between the lovers it would seem unjustifiable, from a scholarly perspective, not to consider the possible impact of Tolkien's then ongoing Beowulf studies, in which the central question of the mythology peeking out from between the lines of the poem concerns precisely the unholy unions of humans and non-humans.

You appear to close off the Beowulf research because it does not fit with your presuppositions.
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I'm not considering Beowulf simply because in Beowulf the human "marries down", while in Tolkien the human "marries up". How is that a presupposition? You sound much like those old folklore scholars saying that all supernatural creatures are the same species. But Tolkien certainly did not believe that, neither in fantasy nor in reality, for angels and devils are at the opposite sides of a huge, unsurmountable divide.

Beren is an Elf in The Tale of Tinuviel simply because the earliest version framed his incongruity to marry Tinuviel in the opposition between Gnomes (Noldoli) and the Elves of Arthanor (what would then become Doriath). From Tinwelint's (then Thingol) point of view, a Gnome cannot marry Tinuviel because they're the bad Elves, so instead of an interspecies union you have an interpeoples union, but it's still exogamy. It's still a Fairy Mistress story. Tolkien then simply realized that the best way to express exogamy was an interspecies marriage, but that's not just any interspecies marriage: it's an Elf-Man union, that's the closest equivalent to a Man-Angel union. You also never consider that Tinuviel is the daughter of an interspecies marriage herself: that of an Elf with an actual goddess/angel. Tinuviel is half a goddess/half an angel herself. I didn't tell you because I don't want to offend you, but I'm offended actually by the way you picture Tinuviel. I'm close to become a Tolkien Neo-Pagan and worshipping her.

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I do sincerely apologize for any offence given in anything I have said of Tinuviel. I have some possibly related feelings about Goldberry, and so I really do apologize!
Ephtariat wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 3:46 am Tolkien certainly did not believe that, neither in fantasy nor in reality, for angels and devils are at the opposite sides of a huge, unsurmountable divide.
OK. I will go with this. All I pose to you, or all I say that you refuse to look in the face, is the historical fact that the Anglo-Saxons appear to have deemed the Elves monsters. Certainly, the poet who composed Beowulf says that the Elves are monsters.

You dismiss Tolkien's concern with what his predecessor - his master - had to say of the Elves. His reaction I deem not so distant to yours on some of these posts. But you are (for now) choosing not to look at something about history that I am quite certain (from my own years of reading) Tolkien considered very long and hard.
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All I pose to you, or all I say that you refuse to look in the face, is the historical fact that the Anglo-Saxons appear to have deemed the Elves monsters.
That's why I'm not interested in looking more closely into the Anglo-Saxon perioed. That's why I dedicate myself to Middle English instead. Tolkien could ignore that aspect of the Anglo-Saxon period and appreciate the rest. For me, it's pure cryptonite. Also, it has nothing to do with my PhD research.

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Please restrain from further insisting. It is pointless that you do and it disturbs me, since for me the Elves are close to sacred.

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