What are you reading?

[Drífa]

I also found the ending of Christopher Buehlman's Between Two Fires strange.

Who is this Wang Jin?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I also found the ending of Christopher Buehlman's Between Two Fires strange.

Who is this Wang Jin?

Relieved to hear you say that on the Buehlman book.

Wang Jin is the heroine of this story. I feel a certain affinity with her as she gets into trouble a lot and while most people blame her, deep down she is a good egg.

[Drífa]

Yeah, Between Two Fires was a good read, but then it just got silly.

Oh, I see, thanks.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Between Two Fires was a good read, but then it just got silly.

That is like a perfect summary.

I don't know why endings are so much problem in both books and movies. GoT still sends me into a depression.

[Drífa]

GoT? Game of Thrones? If so, I am still waiting for the last book. I have never watched the series.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

You never watched? Wow. It was the most excellent screen viewing since the PJ trilogy. But they went past the books and the TV series collapsed in an abominable ending.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Back to Return of the Shadow, the early drafts of The Lord of the Rings.

Return of the Shadow is the source book of The Guide to Stairs, and I am now back where I left off on completing the first staircase, which is to say, looking at Weathertop, where it all comes together. I have to get my head round Weathertop in order to continue my series of Lore posts titled Tolkien's Beowulf Criticism.

[Pele Alarion]

I am still rereading LOTR. Also bought a book couple days ago for serious reading but it hasn't arrived yet.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I am still rereading LOTR. Also bought a book couple days ago for serious reading but it hasn't arrived yet.

Where are you at in the re-read?

[Pele Alarion]

Got to Shelob's Lair. Have been slowly reading for a year...

[Pele Alarion]

Haven't gotten further with LOTR, but additional reading under the title of "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Haven't gotten further with LOTR, but additional reading under the title of "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel van der Kolk.

That looks very interesting. Where I live I think the majority of the population are suffering PTSD. So far as I can tell, the only solution provided by the state is a dramatic increase of legal medical marijuana licenses. That might make people more mellow but is hardly fixing anything.

[Pele Alarion]

Yeah, don't think drugs really deal with the root cause of issues. Have read only a couple pages yet this far, so will see if the book is readable.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

My attitude to drugs changed some after spending a lot of time in hospital a couple of years ago. Once you get in to heavy, intensive treatment the line between medication and drugs gets hard to discern, and much that is put in the patient is mind-altering in one way or another. From the medical point of view, I can see that medical marijuana is just a fairly light version of more of the same. The problem here, as I see it, is institutional. Trauma is treated by medical doctors who do their thing, and write a prescription. But who else do people go to than their doctor?

Anyway, I was thinking of your other reading due to my own reading of the early drafts of 'The Lord of the Rings'. Around where you are, with Frodo stung by Shelob and a prisoner in Cirith Ungol, Tolkien took a break from writing. In the event, three years elapsed in real time between Frodo being captured by the Orcs and Sam rescuing him!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Well, I have now broken whatever it was that kept me from reading the last couple of years (trauma, basically, from hospitals and people killing each other). But I have not found it easy to find decent stuff to read.

I spent some extra money to buy a book called 'My Name is Red' by Orphan Pamuk, who has a nobel prize in literature, or something like that. I got a few chapters in and stopped. It is one of those 'playful post-modern' narratives that seems to have got fashionable in the 1980s, with the story told by a great variety of different characters. After a tree gave its take on the story I admitted to myself how much I disliked the whole thing and stopped reading. I don't know if it is me or the world that has changed, or both, but I don't want this kind of self-indulgence from an author. I want a decent story!

Then I read 'The King of Flesh and Blood', which is an Israeli novel from the 1950s about a king of the second temple period. I read all of it but was glad to finish because it was boring. Basically this king was a bad egg, but there is not much more to it. I did learn a bit about the Judaism of those days, or rather I worked out that Judaism since the Romans destroyed the temple is radically different from what it was before, because hitherto it was a religion of sacrifices made by the priests in the temple. Once the temple was destroyed they had to reinvent the religion, so in a way Judaism is not really older than Christianity. That is interesting, but I did not need to read 500 pages of a story that never went anywhere to learn it.

So I returned to the tried and tested and have now re-read the first three Earthsea books, and also the very last. They are good, but the first is head and shoulders above the rest, and the more recent ones annoy me a bit. Le Guin got into the slowness of the retired wizard who lives the country life. It is all long pauses before Ged the wizard says 'Ah', and then continues to pick plums from a tree. But I did realize how much of Tolkien is behind these stories. In a way they are fan-fiction of the best kind, here Le Guin has taken elements of LotR and remade them in her own world. The connections are never direct but they go deep and are many.

Anyway, seeing as re-reading is working I've picked up again, after many a long year, T.H. White's 'The Once and Future King'. Ahhhh. He was another Oxford student who turned to fantasy/historical fiction. There are a load of them, such as Mary Renault. And they are all original, doing quite their own thing. I'm really happy reading about the young Wart all over again.

[Túrin]

@Túrin - I remember you mentioning Tad Williams in 2020. I have finally started The Last King of Osten Ard series. The first book has been a struggle: The Witchwood Crown. I believe it does not come close to anything he has written in the past. Hopefully, it will improve with Empire of Grass, the next book in the series. Have you read it yet? I hope this finds you.

I have not yet read his latest. That's too bad that it doesn't quite live up to his past work. I've been pretty slow on the reading front. Things I have read have been some Brandon Sanderson, and a fun little series by Megan O'Keef called The Scorched Continent. Have a few other books on my shelf as well I want to get to at some point. I should probably get some audiobooks or something ...

[Drífa]

Hi @Túrin! I highly recommend audiobooks. It was a wonderful experience when I first listened to Great Expectations by Dickens and Brave New World by Huxley. The narration was excellent, and I was hooked. Audiobooks have been a godsend because I can listen to them at work. I spent two months listening to Robin Hobb's The Farseer Trilogy and Realm of the Elderlings.

Take care!

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I never listended to an audiobook, not even once. But I think they are great. My brother was a wood-carver by profession and in his workshop he and the guilders (they put the gold leaf on the carved wood) went through countless stories on audio. I would visit to find them in the middle of 'A Tale of Two Cities', or some such. More recently, I've had two children with serious reading difficulties who would never read a book for themselves but have been enchanted and amazed by some of the classics of childrens' literature thanks to audio books.

You would think the digital age would have broken the fetish for printed books, but it seems to have made it worse.

[Pele Alarion]

Still can't finish reading LOTR...

I liked LOTR audiobook, but I think my phone lost the files somewhere. Tried listening to podcasts and what not while running, but I don't like it. Much prefer the sounds of nature and silence.

[Drífa]

I usually listen to audiobooks at work. They make the day seem less long. YouTube has a wide selection of free audiobooks. In December, I listened to The Fellowship of the Ring, hoping to get a clue to the dragon's riddle that had not been solved yet.

I listen while walking to my ride home at the end of the day. I would rather listen than hear cars and noise from a busy city street. But yes, if I were in the country, I would rather not wear earbuds. I miss walking in the countryside.

I am attempting to find a Salka Valka audiobook that is not AI. Meanwhile, I am on a Stephen King sprint.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Not sure if I would recommend Salka Valka. All depends on your taste, of course. As a work of literature it is undeniably excellent. But it is a realistic novel, depicting life in Iceland in the 1930s, which was evidently quite grim. Tolkien says in OFS that antiquity lends enchantment, and this has been in my head of late with this Iceland book, because it is much like the Greenlanders book in many ways, only the Greenlanders is set in the 14th century, and somehow that vast stretch of time lends an enchantment to the world it describes. But Iceland in the 1930s is just really, really cold with very little to eat except fish. I guess there are more bloody murders in the 1400s. Also, the Reformation had yet to happen.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

We finished The Hobbit. LotR is a bit ambituous. Tbh, I'm not sure my daughter took in all of the adventure of Bilbo Baggins. Was thinking maybe of starting Farmer Giles of Ham next.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Well, I have a couple of books I have been reading, including Salka Valka by Halldór Laxness, which the Dwarf put me on to. But I'm waiting till I finish Salka Valka before writing about it.

In the meanwhile I'm deep in Peoples of Middle-earth, the last Home volume, which gives the early drafts of the appendices of Return of the King. Gotta say that it can be quite wearisome reading. It is kind of fascinating to see how the history of 2nd and 3rd ages were only constructed in the round after the narrative of LotR was concluded. There is actually an interesting story to dig up here concerning the placement of the 3 Seeing Stones in the North. But personally speaking, there is only so much I can take of variations in the death dates of the Stewards and what have you.

[Drífa]

I am listening to The First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie. I am getting a real kick out of it!

[Arella]

I’m reading Taliesin by Stephen Lawhead

[Drífa]

Hi @Arella! Welcome to the Plaza! Enjoy your stay!

I have never heard of or read Stephen Lawhead, even though Taliesin was written in the 1980s. I enjoy Arthurian legend-type stories. Do you recommend him?

[Melahny_oftheWoods]

I've been reading The Glass Library series by C.J. Archer, as well as the Steele & Glass series, same author. It's really good... interesting and different take on a world of magic and magicians. They have a crafts, like a watchmaker, or paper magician, silver magician, etc.

[Arella]

@Drífa Yes I do recommend his books. I read Arthur in the Pendagron cycle when I was in highschool. It was such a good book. I reread it a few years ago and their was an event that happened in it that I had totally forgotten about and it left me so shocked. I felt so much like Merlin in that moment. it takes a lot to catch me off guard in books, since I read so many I usually see twists and turns coming a mile away. It took me forever it seems to finally start finding the other books in the series. I'm excited to be able to start reading the rest.

I've also read his Robin Hood trilogy of books which were all quite good.

[Drífa]

@Melahny_oftheWoods That sounds interesting about the crafts.

@Arella - Thanks!

[VelvetineZone]

I have picked up The Silmarillion again.
I got it out the library a while ago.
I'm a middle aged mother with terrible short term memory so the first bit was extremely challenging.
Multiple characters, multiple names each, lots of consulting Google and immediately forgetting everything.
This time I've picked up where I left off, and am not worrying too much if half of it immediately falls out my brain.
So I've got as far as Melian and Thingol though dunno how much I've actually retained so far.
Thing is, I think initially I just felt I should give it a go, having recently reread LOTR, but never picked up The Silmatillion, and feeling like I was failing as a nerd if I didn't attempt it.
But actually, despite the fact that only some of it is being retained, I am finding it really interesting as what I guess you might call background lore, it's expanding my understanding of Middle Earth, so I'm glad I'm persevering. For now.
It may take me some time though...

[Drífa]

Hi @VelvetineZone! I found The Silmarillion hard to read. I read it in parts. A bit here, a bit there. I have read it for many years (it was constructive playing games on the Plaza), all the little bits coming together, and I know it primarily by heart. And yes, it is interesting—a whole other world.

My hat is off to you for taking it on!

[VelvetineZone]

Hi @Drífa, ah that's quite comforting to hear! I can see myself dipping in and out of it for a while, rather than reading it in one fast sweep. I like what you say about all the little bits coming together. It's definitely expanding my understanding of this fictional world which has been in my consciousness since I was a kid!
From a writery perspective, I've been wondering what Tolkien would feel about the form it was published in. I bet he'd have wanted to tinker and tweak a lot more first. Great that it was published anyway though.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

From a writery perspective, I've been wondering what Tolkien would feel about the form it was published in. I bet he'd have wanted to tinker and tweak a lot more first. Great that it was published anyway though.

Ha! There is a whole industry of 'Tolkien scholarship' obsessing over that question. Christopher Tolkien was his father's literary executor and The Silmarillion the first result. But after that he went on to publish 12 volumes of his father's fantasy work, which aside from the drafts of The Lord of the Rings and two (related) unfinished stories of time-travel, are all 'Silmarillion' material. J.R.R. Tolkien began writing these stories of the Elves already in 1917 (in a hospital bed recovering from Trench Fever) and continued rewriting and revising until he died in 1973. So we now have loads more material and lots of questions about how Christopher put together The Silmarillion.

Many of the various criticisms of Christopher's editing of The Silmarillion seem to me to miss the point (primarily because they don't take into account the relationship between this work and The Lord of the Rings). But my friend Dawn Felagund, who runs the Silmarillion Writers Guild, and is a high school history teacher, makes a powerful point, namely that all the 'Silmarillion' stories as we can now read them are attributed to a source, and Christopher simply cut out all these attributions. This matters because, as Dawn shows, the stories are not intended as objective narratives but rather traditions that themselves have a history and are told to a mortal by Elves with axes to grind. In other words, there is a source-bias written into the stories that you are now reading.

[VelvetineZone]

Ah that's all really interesting @Chrysophylax Dives ta. I was aware that it was Christopher Tolkien who'd compiled them together. I didn't know about the attributions bit, that is really interesting and would totally present them in a different light.

I think the main reasons I was pondering this were:
1. Lord of the Rings flows so much better to read than The Silmarillion, and obviously I know why, but I keep thinking how interesting it would be if Tolkien had lived another 100 years and been able to publish his own final edit of that material.
2. I write stories myself, and the novel length stuff is in a continual process of being tweaked and tinkered with, so, it's hard to put this into words, but you really can feel that tweaking and tinkering hanging over The Silmarillion. Less so now I'm getting further on in. And I don't really mean the sentences themselves, which are beautiful, as his writing is, but just the flow of the early sections.
There's just not enough years of life sometimes for writers to do all their tinkering.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I think the main reasons I was pondering this were:
1. Lord of the Rings flows so much better to read than The Silmarillion, and obviously I know why, but I keep thinking how interesting it would be if Tolkien had lived another 100 years and been able to publish his own final edit of that material.
2. I write stories myself, and the novel length stuff is in a continual process of being tweaked and tinkered with, so, it's hard to put this into words, but you really can feel that tweaking and tinkering hanging over The Silmarillion. Less so now I'm getting further on in. And I don't really mean the sentences themselves, which are beautiful, as his writing is, but just the flow of the early sections.

That is interesting. I'd be curious to hear where you especially feel that tweaking and tinkering (but only if you have the time and inclination).

Tolkien could tweak and revise with the best of us, none better. But an author who could complete the LotR could have gotten The Silmarillion ready for publication too. Back around 1950 the narrative of LotR was completed and Tolkien was polishing off the appendices and trying to persuade a publisher to publish LotR together with The Silmarillion. My work on LotR has revealed to me how in its core the story is conceived as a conclusion to The Silmarillion (something that is not obvious and took me years to perceive). My strong sense is that around 1950 Tolkien had a very clear idea of what he wanted The Silmarillion to be and that if a publisher had consented he would have supplied a finished mss.

Actually, it is from this point of view that I deem Christopher Tolkien's edition of The Silmarillion basically correct. That is, Christopher gave us (more or less) the work that Tolkien envisaged in 1950.

[VelvetineZone]

Ha well maybe this is where my lack of knowledge shows up, as maybe then lots of it is in the form he wanted.
And I'm explaining myself badly. I don't mean so much that bits look like they've been tweaked with, but more that given how well LOTR flows for the reader, would he have wanted to tweak the early sections for better readability flow. And I can see that as a beginner coming to this, I'm clearly musing on all the usual stuff people muse on.
But then equally, you can argue, and I guess people have, that LOTR is more of a come along in, sit down, and now you're in the flow of reading a story, whereas those early bits of The Silmarillion are more how do I word it grand mythological theological this is how it all began deities and creation myths and the world forming stuff, so maybe Tolkien would just say well of course it's all a different tone. And get a grip, keep up when I introduce 10 characters at once with 3 names apiece.

[VelvetineZone]

As for your bit about LOTR being a conclusion to the Silmarillion, it does read very much like that.

Anyway, this is pleasant distraction from housecleaning and laundry.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@VelvetineZone. Don't knock housecleaning and laundry. Laundry is a major part of my day, everyday. However, today I have decided is a special day and I aint doing none! (This is actually because my daughter woke me up at 2.00 am and I could not get back to sleep and now am too grumpy to do any housework. Also, I caught up with the laundry yesterday so I can take a day off. I feel I am telling you more than you might care to read; but then again, maybe it is good to talk about these things with a fellow domestic slave, such as myself).

I am too sleep deprived to reply to what you say about The Silmarillion - laters. But I no longer need a brain to talk about its relationship to LotR. The basic point is that the story of Fëanor's rebellion finally comes to an end when Galadriel (a) refuses the Ring that Frodo offers, (b) is thereby reconciled with the Valar, who have prohibited her return to Valinor, and so (c) returns to Valinor on the same fairy-ship on which Frodo sails at the end of the story. The other side of this is that the Valar are watching over the journey of Frodo and their (well, that of Varda who is also called Elbereth) invisible protection is key to the success of Frodo's quest.

[VelvetineZone]

On the topic of fairy boats, I liked the line in Sweet Thing, covered by The Waterboys, about fairy boats, only to discover one day it was ferry boats.

I appreciate the domestic slavery sharing. Yay for a day off laundry! That's almost the equivalent of a fancy outing. Also can very much relate to children who prevent you having sufficient sleep, though I have actually had a reasonable amount of sleep today. Still shattered anyway.

I really enjoyed the bit in the Silmarillion about the origins of the elves, and all the different branches of elves which went different paths. I will read more on the school run.

[VelvetineZone]

Varda aka Elbereth is my fave of the Valar. Not just because we share an initial. I always liked the Star card in the tarot.

[VelvetineZone]

Just looked it up and see that as you explained, he started The Silmarillion first. It's all very fascinating.

I had forgotten, though had read it before, that Guy Gavriel Kay assisted with editing The Silmarillion. I read his Fionaver Tapestry books a very long time ago.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

Just looked it up and see that as you explained, he started The Silmarillion first. It's all very fascinating.

I had forgotten, though had read it before, that Guy Gavriel Kay assisted with editing The Silmarillion. I read his Fionaver Tapestry books a very long time ago.

Did Guy Gavriel Kay write that Byzantium-like fantasy series? The Wheel of Something, or something like that? I am sure I read something by him a few years ago but cannot remember it.

The Lord of the Rings is a strange combination of The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and Tolkien's Beowulf criticism, but also throw in a 1934 poem about Tom Bombadil.

By now I am in one of those states where I am so tired that I cannot think yet I cannot sleep because my mind will not stop thinking about my current writing (which is all about how The Lord of the Rings became a strange combination of The Silmarillion, The Hobbit, Tolkien's Beowulf criticism, and a 1934 poem about Tom Bombadil).

[VelvetineZone]

Current writing sounds good. I was just thinking how swanky I am to have actual Tolkien scholars to casually discuss my throwaway Silmarillion thoughts with.

Stupid brain is seeing the words current writing and thinking about writing on raisins. Be quiet brain.

I haven't read any Byzantine Guy Gavriel Kay.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

I haven't read any Byzantine Guy Gavriel Kay.

Followed your lead and used Google. What I read was Sailing to Sarantium, which is "inspired by the Byzantium of Justinian I" (Wikipaedia). I have no memory of the contents.

Am reading an enjoyable version of the Völsunga saga atm, but I cannot remember its name. Brunhild the valkyrie is a Hun and then there is Sigfrid son of Sigmund, but they have not yet met up. It seems to be written for children. It worries me slightly that I often enjoy childrens' books more than grown-up books. Still stuck on a grown-up Icelandic novel set in the 1930s in a wretchedly cold and miserable fishing village. It is a really excellent book capturing something very real about human beings. But I have not picked it up for a few weeks and am about to fall asleep reading about Sigfrid the wolf-boy.

Incidentally, Sigfrid inherits from his father Sigmund a sword that is broken. This is from the 13th-century Old Norse Volsung Saga and obviously the source of the broken sword inherited by Aragorn.

Also, in the Old Norse saga Sigurd (who is Sigfrid) kills a dragon while in the earlier Old English Beowulf we hear a bard sing about Sigmund (the father) killing a dragon. This must be one of the details that Tolkien has in mind when in his lectures on the Eddas he asserts that common meters, proper names, and allusions demonstrate that the Old English and Old Norse tales have a common Baltic source.

[VelvetineZone]

Kids' books are often way better than adults' books, I agree. I read a lot of easy reading escapist romantic novels generally, but occasional other stuff too. Oh, on which note, referring to a thread of conversation elsewhere, I like all sorts of hair and fingernails. Ha that sounds funny out of context. And as for rangers, I'm so knackered after walking up the hill, that if any rangers turned up wanting to head off ranging, I'd wish them a lovely adventure and go and lie on the bed with a book.

Oh I'm rabbiting again.

Nordic tales... I don't know many... wolf boys and broken swords sound more fun than fishing village misery. I did read a novel based on people who were politically disappeared in Argentina, so not everything I read is escapism.

I spent a while on Google looking up Valinor, and found a map which made the whole thing make more sense, as in the Silmarillion, various elves have arrived in their coastal area, and Feanor has made his appearance.

Should I tag you BTW @Chrysophylax Dives?
If anyone else wants to join in please do. It's fine if you destroy my infantile musings with superior Silmarillion knowledge, or you can just make encouraging murmurs as if I'm running a particularly long Tolkien marathon, and pass me snacks and bottles of water as I stop for breath between multitudes of elves and all.

[VelvetineZone]

Omg Bad Melkor is now spreading lies amongst the elves, this is like very ancient middle-earth conspiracy theorist shire, like if it was now he would be buying up social media and using it to spread his cunning untrutheries.

I know what I mean but am too tired to word it properly.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

@VelvetineZone, you probably do not need to tag me. I'm on my computer loads and often taking breaks. In the past I would either play 5 minute games of online chess or read the news. But I've stopped on the chess these days (it was a legacy of the Covid days) and the news just totally depresses me. Also, I find myself allergic to Facebook. So I end up opening this site many times a day. But if I do not reply in 24 hours do tag me as it means I have missed your post.

I see now that you have not yet reached Fëanor's rebellion, which is really the heart of the book (with the newly imagined Galadriel written back into it when LotR was written).

And in general, you should indeed call on others for Silmarillion discussion. So far as I am aware, @Silky Gooseness has the best feel for it of anyone here (but that might because the others don't post much about the books). I only really got my head around it these last two years and only because I needed to for my LotR work. When I was about 14 I was a LotR geek, purchased The Silmarillion with excitement, and never got past the creation of the world. I had persuaded my father to read it out loud to me and I think it was watching his face as he laboured through the music of creation that obliterated any chance of enchantment. I don't think he has ever been more grateful to me than when I told him we should stop the attempt.

I will say that having got my head around the book over the last two years I do appreciate it as I did not before.

[VelvetineZone]

My son has just got back into chess, in real life with a friend and online on chess.com. Both him and my daughter have learnt the names of chess moves from YouTube which is way ahead of me, and keep thrashing me!

No spoilers, I didn't know there was a rebellion!

So funny about your dad and you trying to wade through the creation bit! One of my daughter's best friends, aged 12, has read it, and told me it gets more readable further in, and she was right so am glad I stuck with it.

Want to read more, but taking a break for The Geographer's Map to Romance by India Holt, newly out and on my kindle app for 99p. I love her books, and this one which I started earlier features Oxford Professors heading to mid Wales to tackle magic, it turns out, so am delighted.

[Chrysophylax Dives]

On second thoughts, @VelvetineZone, do tag me. There is so little action on this site that I will have to find some other distractions. The only notable thing since we talked this morning is that the plastic PDF post has vanished.

Enjoy The Geographer's Map to Romance!

Meanwhile over here we are entering the insane Pesach cleaning, wherein all traces of hametz must be removed from the house. Don't ask.

[VelvetineZone]

I had to Google that, @Chrysophylax Dives

Not much reading at all, due to walk in sun with son, but actually read a bit more Silmarillion, there has been a rebellion now. Unusually glorious weather here in the Rainy Isles this week, hence the walk. I'm now on the school pickup wait and shall pick a book to continue with.