Basic questions

[Legolas]

Hey everyone

I hope you are fine. So I have just finished watching the lotr movies and came up with a couple of questions once again, although I wasn't smart enough to write them down , so I just remember three for now. However, I want to use this thread to post a 'basic question' every once in a while, rather than always creating a new thread, since I'm also currently rereading the Silmarillion and will start over with the lotr books after I'm finished with it. Furthermore, I know that many of you have an unbelievably great knowledge about Tolkien and his works, therefore please excuse me if my questions are perhaps nooby or even stupid to a certain extent .

1. Is Gollum actually the personification of the one ring? I mean he's obviously Sam's and Frodo's guide, but it seems to me that he has exactly the same 'characteristics' as the one ring. He shows Frodo that he can help, then again is deceitful and manipulative, etc. (I think you know where I want to go with this).

2. What would have happened if Sam would have taken the ring? I'm asking because I remember Tolkien stating that it is in fact Sam who is the true hero of the lotr and it always seemed to me that the one ring has absolutely no effect on him. So, wouldn't it have been wiser if he would have become the ring bearer?

3. Why didn't they just take the eagles to Mordor? This question has been probably asked thousands of times here on the plaza and many of you are probably facepalming themselves right now but I actually really do want to know

Thank you for answering in advance

____________


Edit: Just remembered another one

4. How come the steward Denethor is actually called Denethor? Isn't Denethor an elvish name? I'm asking because of Denethor the leader of the Nandor who entered Ossiriand where they became the Laiquendi.

[Lirimaer]

1. Is Gollum actually the personification of the one ring?
I think you could make a debate for this question with some remarkably salient facts, but for me the answer is no. I tend to see Gollum as the personification of the deliberate willful suppression of the moral conscience which almost finds redemption, when given a chance with two good companions, but then casts it away in pursuit of pleasure.

2. What would have happened if Sam would have taken the ring?
At which point? If from the beginning, I imagine that the Shire would have been very beautiful, with everyone forced into gardening, until such time as the Dark Lord found the Shire and wrested the Ring from Sam's tiny hands, and turned the Shire into a car park, while forcing Sam to watch the bulldozers.

3. Why didn't they just take the eagles to Mordor?
Because they weren't a 'transport for hire' company?
But seriously, when the journey was decided, they were not IN any great danger that might be viewed from on high to be rescued from - when they got into danger (Caradhras) it was in the middle of some rather inclement weather, ruining any eagle's vision that might have been observing. Next time they were in trouble, they were underground and lost Gandalf. The eagles hung around Gandalf mostly, so after that, chances of getting an eagle taxi were vastly limited.
Also, pertinently, the eagles did not offer to take them.
And, furthermore, presumably were not asked or consulted in the matter at all. I do not recall Gwaihir at the Council of Elrond.

4. How come the steward Denethor is actually called Denethor?
The line of stewards came from the noble houses of Men, and if you look at other names of those men, some others were Elven too - Ecthelion I and II for example. The respect which these noble houses of Men had for the Elves is shown throughout their society, so it is not a wonder that they might adopt Elven names/words into their language.

[Winddancer]

About the eagles, the purpose of the Fellowship was to sneak into Mordor and destroy the ring. Not going to be so sneaky with a big eagle. Also the Nazgul would be patrolling the area with their fell beasts. Also the eagles have free will. They are not pets. And no one asked them as Liri so rightfully pointed out. Also there is the logistics of it, someone would have to actually be ON an eagle as it can't just be dropped into Mount Doom, it had to go inside to where it was forged.

But my explanation is rather: There wouldn't be much of a story if that was possible ;)

As for the names, grabbed this off of engadget.com: Generally, the Men of Gondor use names from the elvish language of Sindarin. Therefore, their names are often similar to those of elves. This is because the Gondorians have a connection with elves, being the closest descendants of Númenor.

[Boromir88]

Great idea @Legolas! Although I will say I don't think your 1st question is all that basic. It's an interesting observation about Gollum, and reminds me of a thorough and lengthy topic on the old plaza about the psychology of Gollum and whether he has a split-personality or not. I personally don't believe Gollum is a separate personality, but I never considered that it's a personification of the Ring.

I think Tolkien refers to duality within his characters often. In The Hobbit, there's a lot of references to Bilbo's 2-halves. His Baggins-side (a respectable, comfortable hobbit) and his Took-side (the adventurous hobbit). The battle between his Took-half and Baggins-half is throughout the story. I don't think it's as noticeable in LOTR, but there is that same battle of two-halves in Frodo, whether to follow Bilbo's adventures or not. Perhaps in LOTR it's more noticeable in Gollum. As his own internal battle between Smeagol, who he was before finding the Ring, and Gollum, the name he's given after finding the ring for the guttural sounds he makes.

For some of your other questions, I think 2,3 and 4 are sufficiently answered by the other posts. But just to add something to the eagle question the other posters did not mention. They gave the in-story explanation of why the eagles weren't used to get the Ring into Mordor. I prefer finding the answers within the text because then the story makes more sense to me. But just to give a full picture, Tolkien refers to his eagles as 'a machine.':

The Eagles are a dangerous 'machine'. I have used them sparingly, and that is the absolute limit of their credibility or usefulness. - Letter 210

He's referring to the latin phrase, dues ex machina or 'god of the machines.' It's an authorial device used to solve a plot, or move our heroes out of a sticky situation they're unable to resolve themselves. So the author uses gods/angelic beings/supernatural powers to solve the problem. The eagles were creatures of Manwe, and so Tolkien viewed them as a machine that could resolve some minor problems (like Gwaihir rescuing Gandalf a few times) but did not want to overuse them because then it wouldn't have been such a great story.

[Eldy Dunami]

While people upthread are, of course, entirely correct to point out that the Eagles had free will, I would not dismiss the possibility that they would have agreed to assist in the Quest of the Ring, if the Council of Elrond had decided on a strategy other than stealth and someone then approached the Eagles to ask for their help. As it is, the Eagles played a supporting role in the War of the Ring from a very early point, when Radagast recruited them to help gather information about the Enemy's movements. Gwaihir was only able to rescue Gandalf from Orthanc because he'd flown there to deliver an intelligence report (to use an anachronistic term) to Saruman, whose treachery was not yet known. And when Gwaihir rescued the reincarnated Gandalf from the mountaintop after his battle with the Balrog, he stated that he did so "at the command of the Lady Galadriel who sent me to look for you" (TTT, III 5; my emphasis).

It's sometimes argued (not in this thread) that the Valar would have ordered the Eagles not to assist in the Quest of the Ring, but in my opinion there's little textual evidence to support this notion. While the Eagles of the First Age were servants of Manwë, that didn't stop them from serving as an air force for Turgon, despite the Valar (sans Ulmo) maintaining a strict "no help for the Exiles" policy until Eärendil arrived to plead their case. (Contrast the Eagles' actions with Turgon's repeated attempts to send a ship to Aman ending in their destruction and the drowning of most of his sailors.) Much later, the Eagles of the Third Age intervened in the Battle of Five Armies, apparently because of their rivalry with the orcs of the Misty Mountains, and as noted above they played an active supporting role in the free peoples' struggle during the war against Sauron.

None of this is to suggest that the Eagles are a plot hole—I think the stealth strategy argument is sufficient to dismiss that criticism—but I'm nothing if not a fan of lore minutiae. :V And it must be noted that the How It Should Have Ended-style "drop the Ring into the caldera" strategy would not have worked, since it needed to be destroyed in the Sammath Naur (an interior chamber within Mount Doom). Sean Crist's proposed plan avoids that pitfall, though it's still subject to most of the other standard criticisms of Eagle-based strategies.

[Legolas]

First off, thank you for your answers , they definitely clarified some things for me. I actually just thought of 2 others:

5.) I just thought of the dialogue Peter Jackson invented in the RotK movie, in which Gandalf talks to Pippin about death. Although the scene is not in the books it made me think about the process elves go through when they die. So, why did the elves leave and not fight evil, if they are able to get their body back?

6.) Why did Manwe help Fingon with the eagles, when Fingon was on the way to save Maedhros? It actually seemed to me like Manwë completly gave up on the Noldor after their oath and him helping Fingon all of a sudden was quite suprising to me.

Once again, thank you in advance and I guess there are probably super simple answer to my questions :)

[Winddancer]

I regards to the elves, I am pretty sure it was said that their time in Arda had come to an end. No point in fighting for something when it's over :P Now the real question should then be Why was their time over? :P

[Lirimaer]

5. So, why did the elves leave and not fight evil, if they are able to get their body back?
There is something to be said for wanting to live abundantly. From what we see, many Elves did defend their homes, and join a fight when they had reason, but when there is nothing to fight, and perhaps nothing much to live for, life becomes stale. The realms where the Rings held sway may have fought the ennui, but perhaps around the edges of map life grew monotonous ... and in contrast to this was the call of the Valar, the call to the Firstborn, 'come and be sustained with us'. It is not hard to see why they left - what surprises me is that so many stayed.

7. Why was their time over?
I have no answer for this, apart from attrition. So many had gone on to the Undying Lands, and the ones that stayed weren't reproducing with any vigour. It's like hanging around in a clothing store after a sale, when all the good stuff is gone ...

6. Why did Manwe help Fingon with the eagles, when Fingon was on the way to save Maedhros?
It's as simple as an answer to prayer, I think. Fingon was thinking of his friend, and being brave and noble and forgiving, and that is supremely worthy behaviour.

Then Fingon the valiant, son of Fingolfin, resolved to heal the feud that divided the Noldor, [...] Long before, in the bliss of Valinor, before Melkor was unchained, or lies came between them, Fingon had been close in friendship with Maedhros; and [...] the thought of their ancient friendship stung his heart. Therefore he dared a deed which is justly renowned among the feats of the princes of the Noldor: alone, and without the counsel of any, he set forth in search of Maedhros; [...] Then in defiance of the Orcs, [...] he took his harp and sang a song of Valinor that the Noldor made of old, before strife was born among the sons of Finwë; and his voice rang in the mournful hollows that had never heard before aught save cries of fear and woe.

Thus Fingon found what he sought. For suddenly above him far and faint his song was taken up, and a voice answering called to him. Maedhros it was that sang amid his torment. But Fingon climbed to the foot of the precipice where his kinsman hung, and then could go no further; and he wept when he saw the cruel device of Morgoth. Maedhros therefore, being in anguish without hope, begged Fingon to shoot him with his bow; and Fingon strung an arrow, and bent his bow. And seeing no better hope he cried to Manwë, saying: 'O King to whom all birds are dear, speed now this feathered shaft, and recall some pity for the Noldor in their need!'

His prayer was answered swiftly. For Manwë to whom all birds are dear, and to whom they bring news upon Taniquetil from Middle-earth, had sent forth the race of Eagles, commanding them to dwell in the crags of the North, and to keep watch upon Morgoth; for Manwë still had pity for the exiled Elves. And the Eagles brought news of much that passed in those days to the sad ears of Manwë. Now, even as Fingon bent his bow, there flew down from the high airs Thorondor, King of Eagles, mightiest of all birds that have ever been, whose outstretched wings spanned thirty fathoms; and staying Fingon's hand he took him up ...

[Eldy Dunami]

5. While most Elves were allowed re-embodiment by the Valar, death by violence was still a painful and traumatic experience for them, and it was followed up by confinement in the Halls of Mandos for an unspecified period of time, left to Mandos' personal judgment. This was supposed to be for healing but, from what we read of it in HoMe, actually sounds pretty horrifying, at least to some sensibilities. A lot of Elves fought against Sauron nonetheless, but as their numbers decreased throughout the Second and Third Ages, there was less and less that those who remained could do.

@Winddancer's question of why the Elves' time was over is a little tricky to address. The basic answer is that Eru always intended for the Elves to eventually fade and be replaced by humans, so their power faded over time. The Noldor's supernatural abilities remained on a steady downward trajectory from the moment they left Aman (though the Three Rings significantly delayed the fading process for Imladris and Lórien throughout the Third Age), with consequences for both their "craft" and their military capability. According to "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" (HoMe X), the Eldar believed that by the end of the physical universe, the fading process would get to the point that Elves would be entirely invisible to mortals.

However, this point was still far in the future at the time of the War of the Ring; we know the Silvan Elves remained active in Middle-earth during the early Fourth Age with no sign of being on the cusp of permanent invisibility. I think the remaining Eldar's (especially the Noldor's) hurry to leave Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age is, in part, due to cultural differences. In the moral framework of Arda—shaped by Tolkien's Catholic worldview—"want[ing] the peace and bliss and perfect memory of 'The West', and yet to remain on the ordinary earth" where the Elves were not outranked by the Valar was a moral failing (Letters, no. 131). In that quote, Tolkien was discussing the motivation for the smiths of Eregion creating the Great Rings, but this is a recurring theme throughout the legendarium. Even in the version of Galadriel's story where she fought against Fëanor in the Kinslaying at Alqualondë, Tolkien wrote that a "shadow of the same evil" as Fëanor had fallen on her mind, because "she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage"; ie, not under the authority of the Valar (UT, Galadriel and Celeborn). And we're told Sauron's return to evil in the early Second Age began when he "[saw] the desolation of the world [and] said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth," which led him to conclude he was the right person to improve Middle-earth (TS, Of the Rings of Power).

While I think most readers would agree that Sauron's actions in pursuit of "improving" Middle-earth were horrendously immoral, the idea that we should avoid even the mere desire to improve the world in ways not directly sanctioned by divine authority is a dicier proposition for people who don't hold to Christian (especially Catholic) moral philosophy. The Noldor themselves defied this view at many points, but these actions consistently led them to bad ends. In-universe, that's because Morgoth and Sauron were waiting in the wings to mess everything up; out-of-universe, it's because Tolkien was an author whose work was shaped by his religious beliefs (cf. Letters, no. 142, 213). With each successive disaster in the Second and Third Ages, an increasing number of Noldor and Sindar decided to throw in the towel, submit to the Valar's authority, and return to the protection of Aman. By the end of the Third Age, the Eldar had developed a strong stigma against trying too hard to influence the shape of events in Middle-earth, which (coupled with the decline in their supernatural abilities) discouraged them from active involvement in its conflicts. Though some Eldar played important supporting roles in the War of the Ring nonetheless, most notably Galadriel.

NB Because Lore discussions are never complete without "say[ing] both no and yes" (FOTR, I 3), I must note that Tolkien himself disagreed, at least in part, with the standard leaving-Aman-bad worldview on at least one occasion. In the text "Words, Passages and Phrases in Various Tongues in The Lord of the Rings" (posthumously published in Parma Eldalamberon 17), he stated that it was "held by some [presumably Elvish loremasters] that the Valar had even earlier failed in their 'trials' when wearying of their destructive war with Melkor they removed into the West, which was first intended to be a fortress whence they might issue to renew the War, but became a Paradise of peace, while Middle-earth was corrupted and darkened by Melkor, long unopposed." In a footnote, he went on to elaborate that this was (some said) the result of a serious misunderstanding by the Valar of Eru's intentions, with "disastrous consequences in diminishing the Elves of Middle-earth and so depriving Men of a large measure of the intended help and teaching of their 'elder brethren', and exposing them more dangerously to the power and deceits of Melkor. Also since it was in fact alien to the nature of the Elves to live under protection in Aman, and not (as was intended) in Middle-earth, one consequence was the revolt of the Noldor." This is pretty radical stuff, and hard to square with many of Tolkien's other statements, but it's definitely food for thought.

[Legolas]

Hi everyone so I just finished the Silmarillion for the first time and I've got a few questions. There will probably follow many more




8. Is there a deeper meaning of 1 Silmaril being placed in the sky as the star of Eärendil, one getting tossed into the water and one ending up in the earth?
(oh and did I get it right that Elwing kept visiting Eärendil when he returned from his journeys? Why doesn't she visit her children then? I mean she can fly ^^)

9. Just out of curiosity; What do you guys really think of Eöl?

10. Why didn't the chain of Islands that was supposed to guard Valinor protect Valinor from the evil Númenóreans?
10.1 It is said that after the falling of hills, 'they now lie imprisoned in caves of the forgotten until the last battle and the day of doom' - So as undead?

11. I didn't really understand the real fate of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. They cut off his hands and then just cast him out into the void, but why would Sauron later make the Númenóreans worship Melkor and not himself? I mean, what is the sense of making them worship somebody who is gone and powerless entirely?

12. During the downfall of Númenór Sauron lost his physical shape as it was swallowed up by the sea. I don't really understand how he was continously able to regain it for example as Annatar or later in Dol Guldur, even after he had lost his ring.
(I have always believed that the loss of the one ring made it impossible for it to take a physical form.)




I'm thankful for any help and comment

[Troelsfo]

1. Is Gollum actually the personification of the one ring? [...]

No, he was not. See, that was simple Perhaps the single greatest argument against it is his near-redemption at the top of the Stairs of Cirith Ungol. Gollum was capable of redemption – the Master Ring was not.

2. What would have happened if Sam would have taken the ring? [...]

I tend to disagree with Tolkien about Sam – or ... that is ... he describes my reaction to Sam quite well when he says

Some readers he irritates and even infuriates. I can well understand it. All hobbits at times affect me in the same way, though I remain very fond of them. But Sam can be very ‘trying’. He is a more representative hobbit than any others that we have to see much of; and he has consequently a stronger ingredient of that quality which even some hobbits found at times hard to bear: a vulgarity – by which I do not mean a mere ‘down-to-earthiness’ – a mental myopia which is proud of itself, a smugness (in varying degrees) and cocksureness, and a readiness to measure and sum up all things from a limited experience, largely enshrined in sententious traditional ‘wisdom’.

Carpenter, Humphrey; Tolkien, Christopher. The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien (letter #246, p. 329). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.
If Samwise (=“Halfwit” – honest! That is what the name means ) had taken the Ring, Sauron would not have fallen. Sam would not have had the strength of will to withstand the Ring, and he would have been quickly and easily overcome by Sauron.

3. Why didn't they just take the eagles to Mordor?

It has, rather It's old enough to have made it into the FAQs of Ancient Lore such as Why didn't they just have an Eagle fly the Ring to Mt. Doom?. Basically, it would have made a very poor story. Tolkien was telling a story, not relating true history, and story and narrative power were important to him – far more so than minor details of logic consistency such as this. Casting about for a ‘story-internal’ answer for this is, in my view, rather a mistake. I also think that @Boromir88 explains it quite well.

4. How come the steward Denethor is actually called Denethor? Isn't Denethor an elvish name? I'm asking because of Denethor the leader of the Nandor who entered Ossiriand where they became the Laiquendi.

If I were to add to @Lirimaer's answer, it would be to simply add “family tradition” ...

5.) I just thought of the dialogue Peter Jackson invented in the RotK movie, in which Gandalf talks to Pippin about death. Although the scene is not in the books it made me think about the process elves go through when they die. So, why did the elves leave and not fight evil, if they are able to get their body back?

Jackson dialogue ... <shudders>

But the Elves do fight evil! Not in the way they had done three thousand years earlier, but still.

The longer answer involves a discussion of the emergence of the time of Men. Except for the last four words, Saruman is completely correct when he says

“The Elder Days are gone. The Middle Days are passing. The Younger Days are beginning. The time of the Elves is over, but our time is at hand: the world of Men, which we must rule.

The Lord of the Rings (p. 259). HarperCollins Publishers. Kindle Edition.
and Gandalf knows this, which is why Saruman could even hope to use it as an argument (and tag on the last four words, which were a violation of their mission).

Another fine example is Galadriel speaking of fighting “the long defeat” ...

Put simply, the days in which the Elves were the primary movers and shakers in Middle-earth had passed: now was the time and the world of Men.

Another part of this is that they never could just get their body back. When Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings, the conception underlying this was that Elves were reborn (don't get me started on the metaphysics of this ... ), and that only after a considerable period of purgatorial. The re-embodiment was a rare exemption at the time (real-world time – while writing The Lord of the Rings), and only much later was the re-embodiment made the norm (about 5 years after the publication of The Lord of the Rings).

6.) Why did Manwe help Fingon with the eagles, when Fingon was on the way to save Maedhros?

Not sure that Manwë did ... The Eagles were his agents, but not his mindless slaves, and they had free will and their own agency. And even if Manwë did, in some way, sanction the intervention, it seems reasonable as saving Maedhros was, in any case, the Right Thing to Do.

7. Why was their time over?
I have no answer for this, apart from attrition. So many had gone on to the Undying Lands, and the ones that stayed weren't reproducing with any vigour. It's like hanging around in a clothing store after a sale, when all the good stuff is gone ...

The concept of “the long defeat” goes through most of Tolkien's writings. The eucatastrophes of the legendarium are all merely staying the tide for a short while. The Elves are fading – always! And Men are becoming less and less (in terms of spiritual greatness). And the next age will be less than the one before – always! Each age starts with a brief uplift, a eucatastrophe, but the march of history, the progression of the Great Music, is inevitably “the long defeat.” The Eruhíni are doomed to always become less until that final eucatastrophe expressed in the final Chord of Eru Ilúvatar.

8. Is there a deeper meaning of 1 Silmaril being placed in the sky as the star of Eärendil, one getting tossed into the water and one ending up in the earth?

I'd say “symbolism” rather than “deeper meaning” – just as for the Three Rings being associated with water, fire and air (is the One Ring, the Ring of Earth, then?). Tolkien does use symbolism also without necessarily having a deeper meaning.

(oh and did I get it right that Elwing kept visiting Eärendil when he returned from his journeys? Why doesn't she visit her children then? I mean she can fly ^^)

Eh? Because of Aman not being Middle-earth, presumably.

9. Just out of curiosity; What do you guys really think of Eöl?

Dark Elf ... bit of a loner, bit of a git, but so was his wife. Wonderful craftsman, though.

10. Why didn't the chain of Islands that was supposed to guard Valinor protect Valinor from the evil Númenóreans?

The rules changed after the War of Wrath.

10.1 It is said that after the falling of hills, 'they now lie imprisoned in caves of the forgotten until the last battle and the day of doom' - So as undead?

Possibly. If we assume that they aren't dead, then they're undead. They might also be sleeping, or something – this is Ilúvatar, we're talking about, so anything goes

11. I didn't really understand the real fate of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. [...]

There's a lot more to say about that than what is included in the published Silmarillion. Googling for “the Second Prophecy of Mandos” may help ... otherwise I'll get back to this later, when I've got some more time (sorry – it's getting late, and there's work tomorrow ... )

12. During the downfall of Númenór Sauron lost his physical shape as it was swallowed up by the sea. I don't really understand how he was continously able to regain it for example as Annatar or later in Dol Guldur, even after he had lost his ring.
(I have always believed that the loss of the one ring made it impossible for it to take a physical form.)

The Master Ring possibly made it easier for him, but it was not essential. According to one of Tolkien's letters, Sauron brought the Master Ring to Númenor, and his spirit brought it back. Thus it was not until the Third Age that he re-embodied without being in possession of the One Ring (unless we count Tolkien statement in Ósanwe-kenta that it also happened in the First Age when Lúthien and Huan defeated him). It is unclear when, exactly, in the Third Age Sauron finished taking shape (the same shape/body from which Isildur had cut the finger with the Master Ring), but at the time of The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings he is fully embodied.

[Eldy Dunami]

I think @Troelsfo has this covered, but just to elaborate on a couple of these points...

10. Why didn't the chain of Islands that was supposed to guard Valinor protect Valinor from the evil Númenóreans?

The Enchanted Isles were part of the system of defenses set up during the Hiding of Valinor, which occurred after the Flight of the Noldor. At the end of the First Age—with Morgoth defeated and most of the Noldorin Exiles invited to return to Valinor—these defenses were considerably lessened. Previously, they prevented even Elves with no ill intent from reaching the Undying Lands, but afterwards the Eldar of Middle-earth were able to sail to Valinor unimpeded. The Eldar of Eressëa also sailed to and from Númenor on a regular basis for most of the latter island's history.

10.1 It is said that after the falling of hills, 'they now lie imprisoned in caves of the forgotten until the last battle and the day of doom' - So as undead?

I am personally inclined to interpret the legend of Ar-Pharazôn and his men in the Caves of the Forgotten as just that: a Númenórean legend, not something that's literally true. We have to be careful when making such claims about any part of the legendarium, but Tolkien himself had a habit of casting doubt on the "historical" veracity of some of the more implausible elements in the tales. The Akallabêth, in Tolkien's latest conception, was ostensibly written in-universe by Númenóreans (in one account, by Elendil himself) after the Downfall. While Elendil had more access to the Undying Lands than most, thanks to the Elostirion-stone (the palantír specifically keyed to look to the original West), he, or whoever wrote the Akallabêth, was presumably not working with first-hand witness accounts of Ar-Pharazôn's invasion. More importantly, it's driven home again and again that Men can not escape the fate of death. While there are a few qualifiers to this statement, having too many exceptions cheapens the whole concept. I think it's more likely that this is a variation of the classic "king asleep in the mountain" and "the sleeping army" folklore motifs, with the twist that this particular legend features a villainous king rather than a hero.

11. I didn't really understand the real fate of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. They cut off his hands and then just cast him out into the void, but why would Sauron later make the Númenóreans worship Melkor and not himself? I mean, what is the sense of making them worship somebody who is gone and powerless entirely?

I believe Tolkien's most detailed account of Morgoth's fate is in Text VII (iii) of "Myths Transformed", which can be found in volume X of The History of Middle-earth. In this version, Morgoth had become permanently trapped in a single physical form (something also stated in the 1977 Silmarillion, chapter 8), and in this form "[h]e was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and executed: that is killed like one of the Incarnates" (emphasis in the original). Tolkien goes on to specify that (in this conception) being thrust into the Void means "he was put outside Time and Space, outside Ëa [the universe] altogether". Regarding Sauron in Númenor, Tolkien comments earlier in Text VII that "Sauron, apparently a defeated rival for world-power, now a mere hostage, can hardly propound himself [as a deity]; but as the former servant and disciple of Melkor, the worship of Melkor will raise from hostage to high priest." That Melkor is unable to influence events in Arda is beside the point; Sauron was using the Melkorist cult to elevate his own power, not genuinely trying to acquire divine favor for the Númenóreans.

[Boromir88]

Welcome back Legolas. The Silmarillion is next up on the books I want to read again this year, I hope you're enjoying it. It's been a long time since I've read it so I think I'll only be able to help out with a couple. But I'm sure with @Troelsfo and others to chime in, we'll be able to make a group effort of it.

11. I didn't really understand the real fate of Morgoth after the War of Wrath. They cut off his hands and then just cast him out into the void, but why would Sauron later make the Númenóreans worship Melkor and not himself? I mean, what is the sense of making them worship somebody who is gone and powerless entirely?

To me, Sauron has always seemed the practical and logical type of villain. Of course he made blunders and had a huge blind spot in thinking the ring couldn't be destroyed. I would argue he was right that no one had the will to destroy the Ring on their own, but Sauron's mistake was failing to imagine that others would seek and attempt to have it destroyed. Anyway, that's a bit of a digression, but I've thought of Sauron as a pragmatic and rather patient villain, which I appreciated about his character.

Melkor, Tolkien says, declined into nihilism. Failing in all his designs and plans, he declined into a state where he rejected creation and life. He basically wanted to trash the place. Sauron, on the other hand, never fell into nihilism. He also wasn't an atheist, but he preached it (Melkor worship) to the Numenoreans because it weakened resistance.

All Quotes from Home X, Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed:

Sauron was not a ’sincere’ atheist, but he preached atheism, because it weakened resistance to himself (and he had ceased to fear God’s action in Arda)...

He [Sauron] still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co- ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction. (It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.)


Sauron never stopped believing in the "Gods" or their powers, he just thought they didn't care about Middle-earth anymore so he could make it his own personal play pen. Orginally, Sauron was guided by the principles of order and co-ordination. What he hated was free will. His designs in creating the rings of power, were to dominate free will and make a world of slaves. If you think about it, he wasn't wasteful with his resources. He attempted to make a truce with the dwarves of Erebor, when they rejected his messengers, that's when he sent a force to attack them. What's the point of having slaves to dominate and make the world in your own vision if you destroy everything as Melkor attempted?

12. During the downfall of Númenór Sauron lost his physical shape as it was swallowed up by the sea. I don't really understand how he was continously able to regain it for example as Annatar or later in Dol Guldur, even after he had lost his ring.
(I have always believed that the loss of the one ring made it impossible for it to take a physical form.)

While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. - Letter 131

So, Sauron didn't need the Ring to take a physical form. He had the power to take a physical form (like all ainur) prior to creating the Ring. Losing the Ring didn't effect his power to take a physical form, it just effected his ability to take a "fair" form again.

After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Numenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, which might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination) - Letter 200

This is what I love about Tolkien's letters is it sheds light on many topics, but I understand why they can cause a bit of confusion. They are, in large part, an author's thoughts after writing the story, so they should be viewed through those lenses. I think though they provide fascinating insights that get me thinking about the story differently. In theory, from Letter 200, they didn't have to destroy the Ring to stop Sauron from re-building. After all, Gollum says Sauron only has 9 fingers so after the battle of the Last Alliance, Sauron was unable to rebuild a finger:

"Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough" - The Black Gate is Closed

The 2nd part of Gollum's quote is what's important though, as far as a theory of defeating Sauron without destroying the Ring...he only has "four on the black hand, but they are enough."

Edit: simul with Eldy.

[Troelsfo]

@Eldy Dunami and @Boromir88, thank you both for providing a bit more context on the last questions – I admit that my answers there got rather too short for comfort, but it was getting late, and I had to be ready for (yet another) long day at work.

Unfortunately, it won't be today either, but I hope to come back over the weekend with a discussion of the Second Prophecy of Mandos and how this crucial concept changed over the years .... I understand and appreciate Christopher Tolkien's difficulties when compiling the published Silmarillion, and I do not know (does anyone know?) how much of this history he had uncovered when he compiling that book, but with the clarity of hindsight, his treatment of the end of days is one of the parts that I could have wished that he had treated differently

[Legolas]

Hi everyone :) so I've recently finished reading the Silmarillion and just finished reading The Hobbit (for the first time, I know: Shame on me). Now I've started reading the LotR books for the first time too (It's about friggin' time ). Therefore I will start posting some questions again, knowing that most likely you will have answers for me :D thank you all in advance.

13. What does Tom Bombadil know and where does he know it from? What a mysterious character. So I think it's quite obvious, that he is not Eru or Tolkien personified, but is there any evidence of some sort to what he is, what he knows, and/or where he knows it from?

EDIT: Okay, so I just re-read the Tom Bombadil part. This time, however, I was constantly haunted by a thought and a feeling that would not leave me alone. Furthermore Tom Bombadil did something that initially confirmed my feeling.
My thought: Could Tom Bombadil and Goldberry be the reincarnation of Beren and Luthien in any way??? I know it sounds absurd, but it was a feeling that didn't leave me alone this time. Especially when Tom Bombadil picks up this brooch, deeply looks at it and Tolkien states that it reminds Tom of something, but he doesn't know of what.

What do you think???

[Legolas]

*bump*

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Hey Legolas: I read your last question, but I am unable to answer it in the details you're looking for. I am not a lorist. But a sense to your comparison, aye, there might be similar character traits between both couples. That is not odd or weird with story writing. To me they are not reincarnations of each other. And in my believe Bomdadil is one of the Ainur. Likely Vala status, based on that Sauron's Ring has no influence over him. Sauron is a Maia, so anyone of higher status should have no trouble to handle a forged magic ring of a Maia, because the ring cannot be stronger than the maker himself, or herself. Had Melkor forged it, aye, then it would have been a problem for the other Ainur also, as he was the strongest of them all. But these are my thoughts and are not founded with evidence from the books.

[Drífa]

EDIT: Okay, so I just re-read the Tom Bombadil part. This time, however, I was constantly haunted by a thought and a feeling that would not leave me alone. Furthermore Tom Bombadil did something that initially confirmed my feeling.
My thought: Could Tom Bombadil and Goldberry be the reincarnation of Beren and Luthien in any way??? I know it sounds absurd, but it was a feeling that didn't leave me alone this time. Especially when Tom Bombadil picks up this brooch, deeply looks at it and Tolkien states that it reminds Tom of something, but he doesn't know of what.

What do you think???

Well, actually, the way I read it he does remember what the brooch reminds him of.

'Here is a pretty toy for Tom and for his lady! Fair was she who long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry shall wear it now, and we will not forget her!' TFOTR, Fog On The Barrow-downs

You made me smile with your enthusiasm. I can maybe picture Goldberry as Lúthien, but not Beren as Tom.

[Eldy Dunami]

My thought: Could Tom Bombadil and Goldberry be the reincarnation of Beren and Luthien in any way??? I know it sounds absurd, but it was a feeling that didn't leave me alone this time. Especially when Tom Bombadil picks up this brooch, deeply looks at it and Tolkien states that it reminds Tom of something, but he doesn't know of what.

I don't want to be a buzzkill, because other people doubtlessly find some of my favorite theories to be a bit out there, but I'm not really seeing the reincarnation angle. You can certainly think of Tom and Goldberry as the reincarnation of Beren and Lúthien if you want, but I'm confident that wasn't Tolkien's intention. Beren and Lúthien's souls leaving the physical universe for whatever fate awaits mortal Men is an essential thematic element of their story; being reincarnated a second time would fly in the face of that. I would thus interpret the brooch differently. They found it in one of the Barrow-downs, meaning it (presumably) was buried alongside one of the people interred there. That would not include Lúthien. But Tom had lived in the area for thousands of years and met plenty of his neighbors (including Farmer Maggot, according to the poem "Bombadil Goes Boating," found in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil). The original wearer of the brooch was most likely one of them, since, as @Drifa notes, Tom says he remembered her. My money is on her being a Dúnadan noblewoman of Cardolan, the successor kingdom of Arnor which included the Barrow-downs. According to Appendix A, "Some say that the mound in which the Ring-bearer was imprisoned had been the grave of the last prince of Cardolan, who fell in the war of 1409," during one of the Witch-king of Angmar's invasions of Arnor.

I agree with you that Bombadil is clearly not Eru nor a Tolkien self-insert (either literal or metaphorical). He's not Aulë, either. He might be a Maia, or one of the unspecified "other order[ s of spiritual beings] that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä" besides the Valar and Maiar (TS, Valaquenta). But there are any number of possibilities. Steuard Jensen's theory of Bombadil as an "echo of the Music of the Ainur" is as good as any I've read.

[Legolas]

Once again thank you in for your answers. It's a blessing to be able to consistently get helpful answers here However, I already have a next question (and it won't be the last)

14. Do ALL THINGS in Tolkien's universe have a personality?

I've been asking myself this question since Legolas' statement after the departure from Rivendell surprised me. You probably remember the passage where he says that the stones still lament about times gone by (or something like that). In this context, I also remembered how Bilbo could suddenly understand the spiders in Mirkwood. I think you know what I'm getting at. As always, thanks in advance for any reply

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Eldy: I don't see reincarnations either. And neither I believe it was Tolkien's intention. But as readers we always make from the stories we read what we like. That is the freedom of the reader, either the writer likes or not.

Legolas: With people connected deeply to nature, yes the world around them inhabits many spirits quite quickly. So plant and rock can have a spiritual connection. Surely even you find a fossil embedded rock.

[Legolas]

15. Who's high in Middle-earth?

A slightly different question, but I'm interested in the answer. How did Tolkien deal with the issue of drugs in Middle-earth? And who uses them? What is actually in the pipe-weed of the hobbits and of Gandalf. Can elves become alcoholics (e.g. the elves from Mirkwood)? And what is the effect of Miruvor? Thanks for every helpful answer, of course, and please don't overlook question 14, to which answers I'm also looking forward to. Thanks!

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Legolas: Having written an entire tale about him as well the drunken elves... Yeah they are perceptable for what they consider delicious things. As they are snoring from drinking too much wine, and likely must run later to the toilet, they surely have a higher tolerance against alcohol. But I think they are not beyond completely resisting if they have amount up. Legolas himself gets quite dizzy when he has drunk about nine goblets, while Gimli is singing loudly with even more behind his teeth. I imagined Legolas going outside to clear his dizzy head.

Miruvor is a cordial that riviving properties to renewed vigour and strength. Gandalf gives this cordial to the weary Fellowship at time when it is needed to drive tireness away. Ent draught is a similar cordial but the most powerful of them, when Merry and Pippin find that in Fangorn Forest. The orcs have riviving cordials too.

Pipe-weed was once brought from Numenor to Middle Earth and grew abundantly in Gondor as a wild plant. It does in the Shire as well, but only on warm sheltered places. It is plant with flagrant flowers. It was Tobold Hornblower who domesticated the plant and cultivated the weed and exported it to an industry. There are variaties as Longbottom Leaf, Old Toby, Southern Star and Southlinch. It spread so to Men, Dwarves and Wizards. The Hobbits were however to first kind to develop the habit of smoking pipe-weed. About other sorts of drugs in ME I don't know much.

[Eldy Dunami]

Eldy: I don't see reincarnations either. And neither I believe it was Tolkien's intention. But as readers we always make from the stories we read what we like. That is the freedom of the reader, either the writer likes or not.

I don't deny it.

14. Do ALL THINGS in Tolkien's universe have a personality?

I've been asking myself this question since Legolas' statement after the departure from Rivendell surprised me. You probably remember the passage where he says that the stones still lament about times gone by (or something like that). In this context, I also remembered how Bilbo could suddenly understand the spiders in Mirkwood. I think you know what I'm getting at. As always, thanks in advance for any reply

I probably wouldn't go so far as to say everything, but that Legolas passage (which is one of my favorite "hidden gem" quotes in LOTR) certainly points to Eä/Arda being an animistic universe. Furthermore, Goldberry appears to be a nature spirit, a genius loci of the River Withywindle, and members of the Fellowship clearly think Caradhras has a personality—an unpleasant one at that. And, of course, Tolkien had lots to say about trees. So I think it's safe to assume that the vast majority of natural things, if not all of them, had a personality. Whether Tolkien would've thought a house or a clay pot had a personality after being shaped by human hands is less clear to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone was able to construct a textual case for it. And I'd be even less surprised if they could do so regarding the products of Elvish craft.

15. Who's high in Middle-earth?

A slightly different question, but I'm interested in the answer. How did Tolkien deal with the issue of drugs in Middle-earth? And who uses them? What is actually in the pipe-weed of the hobbits and of Gandalf. Can elves become alcoholics (e.g. the elves from Mirkwood)? And what is the effect of Miruvor? Thanks for every helpful answer, of course, and please don't overlook question 14, to which answers I'm also looking forward to. Thanks!

Pipe-weed was stated to "a variety probably of Nicotania" in the prologue to The Lord of the Rings (p. 8 of the 50th Anniversary One-Volume Edition). That's the genus of tobacco plants; the particular species grown by humans is Nicotania tabacum. As @Aikári Salmarinian mentioned, Tolkien sketched out a fictional history of pipe-weed to account for its presence in Middle-earth despite N. tabacum being a New World plant. Tolkien removed a reference to tomatoes from the third edition of The Hobbit, possibly because it's another New World crop, but let potatoes remain. It's possible potatoes followed a similar progression of Valinor > Númenor > Middle-earth. On the other hand, Tolkien Gateway speculates that the "earth-bread" of the Petty-dwarves in the First Age—"roots [that were] white and fleshy with their skins, and when boiled ... were good to eat, somewhat like bread" (CoH, p. 134)—were potatoes, but they could as easily be turnips, an Old World crop.

The Peter Jackson movies had fun with the idea of pipe-weed being marijuana, most obviously implying as such in the scene of Merry and Pippin smoking amidst the ruins of Isengard in The Return of the King, but this is not based on anything in the text. I can't recall offhand any references to drugs other than tobacco and alcohol. Since Elves were capable of becoming drunk, I think it would stand to reason that they could become alcoholics, though I doubt Tolkien envisioned them as such, at least not late in life. In a discussion of Númenóreans from the 1960s, Tolkien wrote that "Númenóreans were not lustful [...] Until the Shadow came there were in Númenor few gluttons or drunkards. No one ate or drank to excess, or indeed much at any one time" (NoMe, p. 319 fn). This reflects Tolkien's late conception of the Númenóreans, at least in the first half of the Second Age, as a sanctified people, the closest humanity ever got to Elvenkind. As such, there were presumably even fewer (if any) lustful, gluttonous, or habitually drunk Elves than there were among the pre-Shadow Númenóreans. I don't really like this idea, and I think the notion of Elves as unfallen, sanctified beings is contradicted by, y'know, the whole history of the Noldor, but this ties into Aikári's point about the freedom of the reader.

[Legolas]

Alright guys it's official. I've finally made it. I've finally finished the Silmarillion, The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings series. I'm extremely amazed at how different the books actually are from the movies (which I've only known before) and I love them. Having said that, I have to say that certain parts of the books were super tiring to read, but that doesn't change the fact that I thoroughly enjoyed them. As expected, I have a few questions again. Unfortunately, I have to recall most of them because I was smart enough not to write them down. Anyway, here's a start:

14. I remember that after many thousands of years elves consume themselves within (turn into ghost like beings). Does that only count for the elves who stay in Middle-earth?

15. What happens hunderes of years after The Lord of the Rings? Tolkien speaks alot about "the end of time/days". Is there any information on what happens in the "future" of Middle-earth?

16. Merry the warrior - I found it kind of strange how Merry seemed to have turned into an absolute warrior in the end of the book. Am I the only one?

17. Gandalfs future - Is there any information on what happens to Gandalf in the future? I remember that his task on Arda was fulfilled. Or does he just hang out with the elves in Aman as an immortal?

18. And as an OG Legolas fan I just have to ask.. I felt kind of cringed out by Legolas' behaviour a couple of times. He also seems powerless (like he doesn't have much to say) as an elvish prince as he states

"In days to come, if my Elven-lord allows, some of our folk shall remove hither (...)"

This topic has been adressed by me already but Legolas really seems like a shady character which leaves room for alot of interpretation (postive and/or negative), don't you think so?

[Rivvy Elf]

@Legolas It is a rite of passage for any Tolkien fan to have successfully made it past all three series. Congratulations! Know that quite a few fail to read through the Silmarilion.

14. Yes and No. Elves can go to the Undying lands and their body (hroar) will not decay over time. But according to the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth in Morgoth's Ring, eventually even the Undying Lands will be marred and shall be no more. All of Arda eventually will be destroyed, perhaps through a very catastrophic event. So... eventually every elf will lose their body because they are part of Arda. Not their soul (fea) though. Rather grim ending once you think about it. Arda, btw, includes not only Earth, but like a large part of the solar system too.

15. Well human beings take over. Their life age most of the time is under 100 years old and well... maybe we are the future. And just like how the earth will one day be no more... Middle-Earth will share the same fate eventually.

16. Hmm, it did not destroy my disbelief. It would seem strange but it's plausible if we can assume that Merry did some off-screen training in Rohan.

17. He's a maia once known as Olorin so yes, I will assume that he just hangs out for as long as Arda exists.

18. Elves are weird in general. They're really not in the whole "writing thing" because in the Athrabeth, Bilbo states that the elves mock our reliance on written history. Keep in mind that their memories are pretty much perfect and they can transfer memories over to the willing. So learning about all that makes me understand more that Legolas to us would seem like a complete and absolute weirdo, but probably is more of the standard elf in the woodland realms.

He's like Toby from the Office.

This is why you travel so you can learn different cultures and customs and such! Wisdom is gathered through that way.

[Boromir88]

Huzzah, Legolas! Glad you enjoyed stuck with them and enjoyed them.

15. I believe there is a sequel that Tolkien abandoned "The New Shadow." It appears in The Peoples of Middle-earth, but it's very short and unfinished. It occurs during Eldarion's, Aragorn's son, reign. If you're curious about what happens to the Fellowship members after the Lord of the Rings, The Tale of Years in Appendix B has some tidbits.

16. Hmm...I'm not sure I would describe Merry as a warrior, but that's just an opinion. Of course after his part in defeating the Witch-King, Pippin seems a bit jealous, and joins the battle in front of the Black Gate to try to match/surpass Merry's heroics on the Pelennor. And he was instrumental in raising the alarm/hobbits to kick Sharkey's ruffians out.

18. Yeah, Legolas was the least developed member of the Fellowship, unfortunately. When you think about it, he's unusual for an elf, but Gimli is unusual for a dwarf. That strikes me as one of the themes with how strong and lasting their friendship becomes. I mean after the Ring is destroyed they're always mentioned traveling somewhere together, and they depart for the West together, approximately 120 years into the Fourth Age.

[Aikári Salmarinian]

What I do know is that Tolkien wrote the journey from the position as the "least knowledgeable person". That is Frodo for the first part. When the Fellowship breaks up, you have still Frodo/Sam, Gimli/Aragorn and Legolas, and Pippin/Merry. The LKP position moves to Gimli on the plains and it is Pippin whose eyes see the journey with the orcs and leaves mallorn brooch behind. Aragorn finds this. In the Hobbit it is Bilbo all along on the "least knowledgeable person" position. Legolas unfortunately never falls in that position due his immortal age and being the eldest of the Fellowship. So there is barely anything what marks what he sees or feels, otherwise the others hear what he says or see what he does.

[Legolas]

@The Elf Imperishable, @Boromir88, @Aikári Salmarinian: Many thanks for the super fast replies and they definitely cleared things up for me. I actually just thought of another one ^^

19. Welcoming to the Undying Lands - How can we be sure that the everyone is welcome there? Especially Elrond, the last of Fingolfin's house and rightful heir to the title of High King of the Noldor? (Maybe it was just too much information I've been absorbing lately that I'm missing something crucial)

[Aikári Salmarinian]

Legolas: As my far my knowledge of the Undying Lands go, the Valar initiated a ban on the Exiles never to return to the mainland. But after the last great heroic war (which I am digging out at the moment) clemency was given to those Exiles and green/grey elves born in the Dying Lands in the First Age. The Island of Eressëa would become their home, which was anchored in the bay before the cities of Tirion and Alqualondë. Legolas sings of this island after he heard the seaguls and something is awoken in him. I can't tell if they ever emitted to walk the shores of Aman. I can say that the Falmari would be the strongest opposers against the Exiles to return, because of the First Kinslaying and the occupation of their ships. The Minyár would not disagree with the Valar ultimately decided for the arriving elves of Beleriand and the Exiles alike. But I know for certain they would be allowed to enter Tol Eressëa and make it their new home, even Elrond. The island was first used as a transport for the first Eldar to arrive in Valinor in two waves.

[Rivvy Elf]

@Legolas when Gil-galad died, Elrond did not choose to continue the monarchial line and never assumed kingship.

Elrond also is the last surviving offspring of Earendil and Elwing, who were instrumental in the fall of Melkor. Elwing also was key in persuading the teleri to allow the valinorean forces to use their ships in the war of wrath.

He is also great-great-grandson of Melian, one of the beloved Maia. He is therefore a descendant of Elu thingol, beloved by the ruler of the teleri.

I haven’t even discussed his actions throughout the years that are worthy of song.

Elrond not only would be welcomed, there would be enough songs composed in valinor about him that would be greater than the largest human book of all time.

[Legolas]

20. Thranduil's Intentions - I'm subtly confused by Thranduil's intentions. Why exactly did he take part in the Battle of the Five Armies? Was it really just because he wanted a piece of the treasure? It seemed to me that after Smaug was killed, all he really wanted to do was support the people. I'm a little confused.

Also, isn't it super awkward that Thranduils prisoners keep escaping?

[Saranna]

Thranduil's setting forth with his elves may have started with the intention of catching their escaped prisoners (visible dwarves and invisible hobbit) and - what? Giving them a good talking-to? Trying to recapture them? The need for vengeance (and compensation) is possibly there at first, given the ages-long bad feeling between elves and dwarves. But Elves are on the whole compassionate by nature, and their starting impulses would be readily altered on learning of the terrible state of Laketown and its people, and on learning of the imminent arrival of hordes of goblins. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend). We can all change our minds when circumstances change.

[Legolas]

Recap

1. Is Gollum actually the personification of the one ring?

Answer: Basically no. Gollum was capable of redemption – the Master Ring was not. - @Lirimaer, @Troelsfo


2. What would've happened if Sam would have taken the ring?

Answers:
a.) If he would have taken it from the beginning, the Shire would have most likely been very beautiful, with everyone forced into gardening - @Lirimaer
b.) If later, Sauron would have most likely taken the ring from Sam and turned the Shire into a car park, while forcing Sam to watch the bulldozers. - @Lirimaer


3. Why didn't they just take the eagles to Mordor?

Answers:
a.) The eagles had free will and weren't a 'transport to hire' - @Lirimaer
b.) It wouldn't have been 'so sneaky' - @Winddancer
c.) They weren't consulted in the matter after all - @Lirimaer
d.) Tolkien saw the as a 'machine' with a limited usefulness - @Boromir88


4. How come the steward Denethor is actually called Denethor?

Answer: The line of stewards came from the noble houses of Men, and if you look at other names of those men, some others were Elven too - Ecthelion I and II for example. The respect which these noble houses of Men had for the Elves is shown throughout their society, so it is not a wonder that they might adopt Elven names/words into their language - @Lirimaer


5. So, why did the elves leave and not fight evil, if they are able to get their bodies back?

Answers:
a.) Many Elves did defend their homes, and join a fight when they had reason, but when there is nothing to fight, and perhaps nothing much to live for, life becomes stale. - @Lirimaer
b.) Due tothe call of the Valar, 'come and be sustained with us'. It is not hard to see why they left - @Lirimaer
c.) A lot of Elves fought against Sauron nonetheless, but as their numbers decreased throughout the Second and Third Ages, there was less and less that those who remained could do - @Eldy Dunami
d.) While most Elves were allowed re-embodiment by the Valar, death by violence was still a painful and traumatic experience for them, and it was followed up by confinement in the Halls of Mandos for an unspecified period of time, left to Mandos' personal judgment. This was supposed to be for healing but, from what we read of it in HoMe, actually sounds pretty horrifying, at least to some sensibilities - @Eldy Dunami
e.) Their time was over and the time of men had come - @Troelsfo


6. Why did Manwe help Fingon with the eagles, when Fingon was on the way to save Maedhros?

Answer: It's as simple as an answer to prayer - @Lirimaer


7. Why was their (elves) time over?

Answers:
a.) The remaining Eldar's (especially the Noldor's) hurry to leave Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age is, in part, due to cultural differences
b.) The basic answer is that Eru always intended for the Elves to eventually fade and be replaced by humans, so their power faded over time. The Noldor's supernatural abilities remained on a steady downward trajectory from the moment they left Aman (though the Three Rings significantly delayed the fading process for Imladris and Lórien throughout the Third Age), with consequences for both their "craft" and their military capability. According to "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" (HoMe X), the Eldar believed that by the end of the physical universe, the fading process would get to the point that Elves would be entirely invisible to mortals. - @Eldy Dunami


8. Is there a deeper meaning of 1 Silmaril being placed in the sky as the star of Eärendil, one getting tossed into the water and one ending up in the earth?

Answer: Most likely just symbolism, which Tolkien uses also without necessarily having a deeper meaning - @Troelsfo


9. Just out of curiosity; What do you guys really think of Eöl?

Answers: Bit of a loner, bit of a git, but so was his wife. Wonderful craftsman, though - @Troelsfo


10. Why didn't the chain of Islands that was supposed to guard Valinor protect Valinor from the evil Númenóreans? Also it is said that after the falling of hills, 'they now lie imprisoned in caves of the forgotten until the last battle and the day of doom' - So as undead?

Answers:
a.) The rules changed after the War of Wrath - @Troelsfo
b.) A Númenórean legend, not something that's literally true. We have to be careful when making such claims about any part of the legendarium - @Eldy Dunami
c.) The Enchanted Isles were part of the system of defenses set up during the Hiding of Valinor, which occurred after the Flight of the Noldor. At the end of the First Age—with Morgoth defeated and most of the Noldorin Exiles invited to return to Valinor—these defenses were considerably lessened. Previously, they prevented even Elves with no ill intent from reaching the Undying Lands, but afterwards the Eldar of Middle-earth were able to sail to Valinor unimpeded. The Eldar of Eressëa also sailed to and from Númenor on a regular basis for most of the latter island's history - @Eldy Dunami


11. Why would Sauron later make the Númenóreans worship Melkor and not himself?

Answers:
a.) That Melkor is unable to influence events in Arda is beside the point; Sauron was using the Melkorist cult to elevate his own power, not genuinely trying to acquire divine favor for the Númenóreans - @Eldy Dunami
b.) Sauron preached it (Melkor worship) to the Numenoreans because it weakened resistance - @Boromir88


12. How was Sauron continuously able to regain his physical form for example as Annatar or later in Dol Guldur, even after he had lost his ring?

Answers:
a.) While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'
b.) As far as a theory of defeating Sauron without destroying the Ring... He only has "four on the black hand, but they are enough." - @Boromir88
c.) ? Thank you for your answers, but I personally still don't quite understand it. How come Sauron kept being defeated and still was able to take on a physical form?


13. What does Tom Bombadil know and where does he know it from?

Answer: Bombadil is clearly not Eru nor a Tolkien self-insert (either literal or metaphorical). He's not Aulë, either. He might be a Maia, or one of the unspecified "other order[ s of spiritual beings] that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä" besides the Valar and Maiar (TS, Valaquenta). But there are any number of possibilities. Steuard Jensen's theory of Bombadil as an "echo of the Music of the Ainur" is as good as any I've read. - @Eldy Dunami


14. Do ALL THINGS in Tolkien's universe have a personality?

Answer: it's safe to assume that the vast majority of natural things, if not all of them, had a personality. Whether Tolkien would've thought a house or a clay pot had a personality after being shaped by human hands is less clear to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if someone was able to construct a textual case for it. And I'd be even less surprised if they could do so regarding the products of Elvish craft - @Eldy Dunami


15. Who's high in Middle-earth?

Answers:
a.) Miruvor is a cordial that riviving properties to renewed vigour and strength. Gandalf gives this cordial to the weary Fellowship at time when it is needed to drive tireness away. Ent draught is a similar cordial but the most powerful of them, when Merry and Pippin find that in Fangorn Forest. The orcs have riviving cordials too . Concerning pipeweed: There are variaties as Longbottom Leaf, Old Toby, Southern Star and Southlinch. It spread so to Men, Dwarves and Wizards. The Hobbits were however to first kind to develop the habit of smoking pipe-weed - @Aikári Salmarinian
b.) The Peter Jackson movies had fun with the idea of pipe-weed being marijuana, most obviously implying as such in the scene of Merry and Pippin smoking amidst the ruins of Isengard in The Return of the King, but this is not based on anything in the text. I can't recall offhand any references to drugs other than tobacco and alcohol. Since Elves were capable of becoming drunk, I think it would stand to reason that they could become alcoholics, though I doubt Tolkien envisioned them as such, at least not late in life - @Eldy Dunami


16. I remember that after many thousands of years elves consume themselves within (turn into ghost like beings). Does that only count for the elves who stay in Middle-earth?

Answer: Yes and No. Elves can go to the Undying lands and their body (hroar) will not decay over time. But according to the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth in Morgoth's Ring, eventually even the Undying Lands will be marred and shall be no more. All of Arda eventually will be destroyed, perhaps through a very catastrophic event - @Rivvy Elf


17. What happens hunderes of years after The Lord of the Rings? Tolkien speaks alot about "the end of time/days". Is there any information on what happens in the "future" of Middle-earth?

Answers:
a.) Maybe we are the future. And just like how the earth will one day be no more... Middle-Earth will share the same fate eventually - @Rivvy Elf
b.) A sequel that Tolkien abandoned "The New Shadow and The Tale of Years in Appendix B could lead to more information - @Boromir88


18. Merry the warrior - I found it kind of strange how Merry seemed to have turned into an absolute warrior in the end of the book. Am I the only one?

Answers:
a.) After his part in defeating the Witch-King, Pippin seems a bit jealous, and joins the battle in front of the Black Gate to try to match/surpass Merry's heroics on the Pelennor. And he was instrumental in raising the alarm/hobbits to kick Sharkey's ruffians out - @Boromir88
b.) It would seem strange but it's plausible if we can assume that Merry did some off-screen training in Rohan - @Rivvy Elf


19. Gandalfs future - Is there any information on what happens to Gandalf in the future? I remember that his task on Arda was fulfilled. Or does he just hang out with the elves in Aman as an immortal?

Answer: He's a maia once known as Olorin so yes, I will assume that he just hangs out for as long as Arda exists - @Rivvy Elf


20. Why is Legolas' behavoir so strange?

a.) Legolas to us would seem like a complete and absolute weirdo, but probably is more of the standard elf in the woodland realms - @Rivvy Elf
b.) Legolas was the least developed member of the Fellowship, unfortunately. When you think about it, he's unusual for an elf, but Gimli is unusual for a dwarf - @Boromir88
c.) Legolas unfortunately never falls into the "least knowledgeable" position due his immortal age and being the eldest of the Fellowship. So there is barely anything what marks what he sees or feels, otherwise the others hear what he says or see what he does. - @Aikári Salmarinian


21. Welcoming to the Undying Lands - How can we be sure that the everyone is welcome there? Especially Elrond, the last of Fingolfin's house and rightful heir to the title of High King of the Noldor?

Answer: When Gil-galad died, Elrond did not choose to continue the monarchial line and never assumed kingship. Elrond also is the last surviving offspring of Earendil and Elwing, who were instrumental in the fall of Melkor. Elwing also was key in persuading the teleri to allow the valinorean forces to use their ships in the war of wrath. He is also great-great-grandson of Melian, one of the beloved Maia. He is therefore a descendant of Elu thingol, beloved by the ruler of the teleri. Elrond not only would be welcomed, there would be enough songs composed in valinor about him that would be greater than the largest human book of all time - @Rivvy Elf


22. Thranduil's Intentions - I'm subtly confused by Thranduil's intentions. Why exactly did he take part in the Battle of the Five Armies? Was it really just because he wanted a piece of the treasure? It seemed to me that after Smaug was killed, all he really wanted to do was support the people. I'm a little confused. Also, isn't it super awkward that Thranduils prisoners keep escaping?

Answer: Thranduil's setting forth with his elves may have started with the intention of catching their escaped prisoners (visible dwarves and invisible hobbit) and - what? Giving them a good talking-to? Trying to recapture them? The need for vengeance (and compensation) is possibly there at first, given the ages-long bad feeling between elves and dwarves. But Elves are on the whole compassionate by nature, and their starting impulses would be readily altered on learning of the terrible state of Laketown and its people, and on learning of the imminent arrival of hordes of goblins. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend). We can all change our minds when circumstances change - @Saranna

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
PS: PLEASE let me know if I have misunderstood/misinterpreted certain answers, as I only present them here as simplified versions and, as mentioned, briefly summarized.

[Androthelm]

Quick addendum -- I don't think Thranduil sets out until after he hears news of Smaug's death. There is a shall we say "fiscal" element as well (an echo, vaguely, of Thingol's desire for treasure -- but that's another discussion).

[Legolas]

@Androthelm Good point! So lets get to it

23. In what way is there an echo of Thingol's desire for treasure in Thranduil?
I just had a thought. I mean Oropher and Thranduil must've been around when Thingol wore the Silmaril and when Feanors sons came to retrieve it. Could it be that the arkenstone is 'the closest thing' to a Silmaril and therfore interests Thranduil? On the other handx he didn't have the urge to keep it, when Bilbo handed it over to them. However, Thranduil really did accept the white gems.. Hmm.. Thought I was on to something here.. Or am I?


Ok everyone, I just need some more clarity regarding the elves...


24. Did the Nandor take part in the war of wrath at all?

25. Are the Mirkwood Elves really less educated than the Lothlorien Elves? If yes, maybe it's just because Galadriel and Celeberon belong to the Calaquendi?

26. Do the Elves of Lothlorien and the Elves of Imladris think worse of the Elves of Mirkwood?
I mean kinslaying developed into kind of a thing when one looks at the history of the elves, so I wouldn't be suprised if there was a prejudice in a way

[Lirimaer]

I have read your summarizing post above and decided I am entirely too opinionated.

That being said ... I have Thoughts on the subject of 25. Are the Mirkwood Elves really less educated than the Lothlorien Elves?

Please note that these are actually my own headcanon now, since I began a fic once upon a time which featured this very event. I have no great quotes to back any of it up, but now merely assume that I did research back in the day. Did I? Eh

From what I recall, Oropher and a young Thranduil spent time in Melian's realm, before they left Beleriand. (This may not be accurate, I have not checked for years.) Thus their knowledge of the notable events after they left would be much less. They still joined against Sauron, so they evidently had some contact with the other Elves, though after Oropher's death this dwindled - but Legolas is not treated poorly in either Rivendell or Lorien, and I do not see a hierarchical structure looking down on (or pitying) him for his heritage at all.

"Less educated" is therefore subjective dependent upon what exactly is meant. Their knowledge of the 'important' histories of the Peredhil line might be lacking, certainly. But were they foolish and bumbling? No. Even in The Hobbit, Elves from both* camps displayed odd traits. Elrond was an almost mythical figure with his lineage and his station, and Galadriel came from Valinor and was taught by Melian, so their combined first-hand knowledge of events was considerable. Add in Glorfindel and Celeborn, and we have a living library.

The Elves of the Woodland Realm might be less well-versed in the histories of the Noldor, but I see no educational barrier to documenting their own traditions and histories. A Dorwinion barrier, maybe.

*both = I have conflated Lorien with Imladris here, since they intermarried and clearly had strong ties.

[Legolas]

I have read your summarizing post above and decided I am entirely too opinionated.

Please elaborate @Lirimaer

From what I recall, Oropher and a young Thranduil spent time in Melian's realm, before they left Beleriand. (This may not be accurate, I have not checked for years.) Thus their knowledge of the notable events after they left would be much less. They still joined against Sauron, so they evidently had some contact with the other Elves (...)

Yes you are right. Oropher and Thranduil belong to the Sindar. After the destruction of Beleriand, most of the remaining Sindar retreat to Lindon, where the Valar reinvite them to the undying lands. However, Orpher and Thranduil refuse and travel to Greenwood instead.

Legolas is not treated poorly in either Rivendell or Lorien, and I do not see a hierarchical structure looking down on (or pitying) him for his heritage at all.

"Less educated" is therefore subjective dependent upon what exactly is meant. Their knowledge of the 'important' histories of the Peredhil line might be lacking, certainly. But were they foolish and bumbling? No. Even in The Hobbit, Elves from both* camps displayed odd traits. Elrond was an almost mythical figure with his lineage and his station, and Galadriel came from Valinor and was taught by Melian, so their combined first-hand knowledge of events was considerable. Add in Glorfindel and Celeborn, and we have a living library.

The Elves of the Woodland Realm might be less well-versed in the histories of the Noldor, but I see no educational barrier to documenting their own traditions and histories.

I agree but still, Tolkien makes it pretty clear in The Silmarillion how the Elvish factions differ from one another in terms of their abilities, strengths, and weaknesses. For example, the Noldor are considered very skilled in blacksmithing and so on. Furthermore, Tolkien makes it clear that the elves who saw the light of the trees and were in Aman are wiser, than those who stayed behind. This would suggest that the wisdom of Galadriel (who was of course also taught by Melian) and Celeborn exceeded that of Oropher and Thranduil. Accordingly, one could also assume that the elves from Lothlorien are "more educated" than the elves from Mirkwood.

My question though: Is there any evidence to support this thesis?

Edit: @Lirimaer I want to add that I totally get your point and of course when it comes to the documentation of history, there shouldn't be a problem. What I'm actually aiming at, however, is that I feel like the Mirkoood elves are perhaps a little more simple than the elves of Imladris or Lothlorien. I am unsure about it but I think I read somewhere that the elves from Mirkwood were not good manufacturers and builders neither. Also the one and only relationship the really seem to keep up is with the men from Lake-Town and Legolas himself has "only" heard of Lothlorien through songs

[Lirimaer]

@Legolas Ah, I see. You are probably quite correct, but I have no useful data to add. I shall respectfully bow out of the discussion!

... that being said, [she opined again] a point in your favour may be the manufacturing of bows of Mirkwood vs. the bow of the Galadhrim Legolas was gifted in Lorien; the description of such may add weight to your point, perhaps, especially since a royal in Mirkwood would likely have carried the best they had to offer.

[Lirimaer]

Although ... there is very little description. The first quote covers it all, really.

To Legolas she gave a bow such as the Galadhrim used, longer and stouter than the bows of Mirkwood, and strung with a string of elf-hair. With it went a quiver of arrows. FOTR

Legolas laid down his paddle and took up the bow that he had brought from Lórien. Then he sprang ashore and climbed a few paces up the bank. Stringing the bow and fitting an arrow he turned, peering back over the River into the darkness. Across the water there were shrill cries, but nothing could be seen. Frodo looked up at the Elf standing tall above him, as he gazed into the night, seeking a mark to shoot at. His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind. But now rising and sailing up from the South the great clouds advanced, sending out dark outriders into the starry fields. A sudden dread fell on the Company.
`Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.
Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore.
After a while Aragorn led the boats back upstream. They felt their way along the water's edge for some distance, until they found a small shallow bay. A few low trees grew there close to the water, and behind them rose a steep rocky bank. Here the Company decided to stay and await the dawn: it was useless to attempt to move further by night. They made no camp and lit no fire, but lay huddled in the boats, moored close together.
'Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas! ' said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. 'That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!' FOTR

‘The Winged Messenger!’ cried Legolas. ‘I shot at him with the bow of Galadriel above Sarn Gebir, and I felled him from the sky. He filled us all with fear. What new terror is this?’
‘One that you cannot slay with arrows,’ said Gandalf. ‘You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds. TTT

‘I am the Doorward of Theoden,’ he said. ‘Hama is my name. Here I must bid you lay aside your weapons before you enter.’
Then Legolas gave into his hand his silver-hafted knife, his quiver, and his bow. ‘Keep these well,’ he said, ‘for they come from the Golden Wood and the Lady of Lothlorien gave them to me.’
Wonder came into the man’s eyes, and he laid the weapons hastily by the wall, as if he feared to handle them. ‘No man will touch them, I promise you,’ he said. TTT

‘But you are a dwarf, and dwarves are strange folk. I do not like this place, and I shall like it no more by the light of day. But you comfort me, Gimli, and I am glad to have you standing nigh with your stout legs and your hard axe. I wish there were more of your kin among us. But even more would I give for a hundred good archers of Mirkwood. We shall need them. The Rohirrim have good bowmen after their fashion, but there are too few here, too few.’ TTT

It amuses me that Legolas would prefer Mirkwood's archers ... but then I suppose he knows what they can do. He's probably not dissing the Lorien bowmen. Probably.

[Legolas]

@Lirimaer So first of all, I have to say that the selection of your quotes made me very happy as a die-hard Legolas fan I also don't think he meant to insult the Lothlorien archers and he just knows the skills of the archers from Mirkwood. On the other hand, I can well imagine that Galadriel's bow has a better quality than the one he owned before. However, I even believe that Legolas carried a shortbow before and Galadriel's bow is a longbow, which would also explain why he is so grateful for Galadriel's bow after shooting down the Nazugul

[Lirimaer]

Always happy to bond over Legolas ;)

[Legolas]

27. Why exactly does Sauron not become invisible when he wears the Ring? (Is it solely due to the fact that he no longer possesses a physical form and thus permanently resides in the Wraith world?)

28. If Elves wither away with time and essentially become ghost-like beings, do they also enter/dwell in the Wraith world?

29. Why exactly did Saurons orcs have a communication problem? And why did Sauron feel the need to invent the black speech?

[Legolas]

*bump*

[Chrysophylax Dives]

*bump*

It is all very well to bump this post, but for someone (like me) who has not read it for a long time it is not very easy to see what questions have been answered and which are still ongoing. could you provide a summary of the still burning issues?

[Silky Gooseness]

27. Why doesn’t Sauron become invisible when he wears the Ring

I’m fairly sure the Ring’s “invisibility” effect is pulling a mortal into the “wraith” or “spirit” realm. Sauron, like others, exists in both realms at once, so would remain visible. Frodo at Bruinen can see Glorfindel more clearly than the others, because Glorfindel has passed through death and exists on both sides also. You would think that Gandalf would, as well - presumably none of the Maiar would become invisible but most Elves would? Happy to be corrected.

[Legolas]

30. Who spoke to Boromir & Faramir in their dreams?

[Chrysophylax Dives]

30. Who spoke to Boromir & Faramir in their dreams?

that is a good question.

[Saranna]

Ulmo?

[Legolas]

31. Could Tom Bombadil and Goldberry be the "parents" of the Hobbits?

32. Even after reading the Silmarallion it's still unclear to me, why elves are portrayed as excellent archers? Only due to their keen eyessight and because one might assume that an elf would be a perfect archer due to thousands years of practice?